Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[skippy]

I am new to this site so please excuse my lack of knowledgeon the new CVO 110 I have been rideing Harleys for 18 years  and have owned almost every model produced but I am bumbfuzled over this new motor. Just today I was told by a 25 year experienced tech and well known local motor tuner that if something is not done to this motor to help get the temp down we will see motors loosing valve seals then locking up. He told me about a recall to help with the leaning out of EFI but also thinks their are other issues...  I am getting nervious on this one  whats up with this HOT CVO  skippy

[jeffj]

Relax and enjoy it - you have a 2 year warranty

[JR]

First off warm welcome to this site skippy! There have been some talk about heat on the 110 engines. Some of those who have em will be able to speak up about the issue and what is being done! You have come to the right place for information about your special scooter. Pull up a chair and enjoy the wealth of information in this site. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] When you get a chance we would love to see some pictures of your scooter. Again, welcome and God Bless!

                                                                           JR [smiley=banana.gif]

[hd-dude]

Welcome to the site!

Your tech may be right on this. I was talking to a very good and reputlable tuner today and he told me that the 07 110's are running between 14.5 and 15 AFR from 0 to 40% throttle (which is where you ride most of the time) and that they are setup that way due to EPA requirements. This is dangerously lean and the reason for the excess heat. I can't see the MOCO kepping these this way and expecting to get any life out of these motors. On the other hand I would bet that upwards of 90% of owners will change the exhaust and add a fuel management device thus solving the problem for them. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[Twolanerider]

On the other hand I would bet that upwards of 90% of owners will change the exhaust and add a fuel management device thus solving the problem for them. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Jim, all of our experience here to the contrary I seriously doubt the number is anywhere near that high.  Even among the OCD infected group group of people that populate this zoo we've got more than 1 in 10 that have pretty well left things along (based on how many stock pipes seen on relatively new bikes at CC or MV).  Among the more general population I'd bet not even half actually do the changes that are so common here.  Granted, those are the most common changes.  But that 90% do them is unlikely.  And we've certainly already read here of 07s engines eating themselves.  So there very likely is a real concern here too.  Getting these changes done and done early may actually be a very very big deal for the 110 guys.

[twincam]

welcome to the site, you will find good info here!!!!!!!!

[jeffj]

Jim, all of our experience here to the contrary I seriously doubt the number is anywhere near that high.  Even among the OCD infected group group of people that populate this zoo we've got more than 1 in 10 that have pretty well left things along (based on how many stock pipes seen on relatively new bikes at CC or MV).  Among the more general population I'd bet not even half actually do the changes that are so common here.  Granted, those are the most common changes.  But that 90% do them is unlikely.  And we've certainly already read here of 07s engines eating themselves.  So there very likely is a real concern here too.  Getting these changes done and done early may actually be a very very big deal for the 110 guys.

Both of you guys are somewhat correct  
Jim, lives in CA and 9 out of 10 owners change the exhaust ASAP ....lol even Jap bike owners do
But here in the Midwest I go along with Don and say at best it's 50/50 on owners changing exhaust

jeffj

[altugo]

Jim, all of our experience here to the contrary I seriously doubt the number is anywhere near that high.  [highlight][/highlight]Even among the OCD infected group group of people that populate this zoo we've got more than 1 in 10 that have pretty well left things along[highlight][/highlight] (based on how many stock pipes seen on relatively new bikes at CC or MV).  Among the more general population I'd bet not even half actually do the changes that are so common here.  Granted, those are the most common changes.  But that 90% do them is unlikely.  And we've certainly already read here of 07s engines eating themselves.  So there very likely is a real concern here too.  Getting these changes done and done early may actually be a very very big deal for the 110 guys.

I cant belive this!!!!In this group?? NOOOOOOO WAAAAAAAYYYYYY [smiley=drink.gif]

[cigarmike]

I met a guy in Pleasanton yesterday with an '07 B/O, I Gave him a card for this website, and hopefully he joins us, anyway, he lives in Arizona, and has 14k on his bike already, he also is on his 2nd engine replacement...........he changed out exhaust etc. at 1k. I didnt think to ask about the warranty, and if there were any issues with mods etc. But he said that the bike was hot before the mods, and its still hot now, but not as bad, he had 1 engine relaced @1300 miles, and the other one @ 9k. He said he doesnt care as long as they kep replacing the engine,. and 'Yes' he did buy the extended warranty.

  

[Twolanerider]

I met a guy in Pleasanton yesterday with an '07 B/O, I Gave him a card for this website, and hopefully he joins us, anyway, he lives in Arizona, and has 14k on his bike already, he also is on his 2nd engine replacement...........he changed out exhaust etc. at 1k. I didnt think to ask about the warranty, and if there were any issues with mods etc. But he said that the bike was hot before the mods, and its still hot now, but not as bad, he had 1 engine relaced @1300 miles, and the other one @ 9k. He said he doesnt care as long as they kep replacing the engine,. and 'Yes' he did buy the extended warranty.

  

From the population here we seem to know of four or five dead engines now.  With witness accounts of that many others.  This is likely far more of an issue than perhaps we'd realized.  I'm liking the red bike better and better all the time.

[JCZ]

Has anybody wrote letters to the MC magazines like we did back in 04 and 05 about this issue?  Get the magazines involved in this so that the word gets out, as to the problem and the soulution.  I believe that American Rider magazine has been the most favorable to this site......shoot Buzz a kite.

[Midnight Rider]

Funny/odd thing I saw at my local dealer today...The had a bunch of PCIII's hanging on the wall behind the parts counter, and a big sign with 20% off the PC, Stage I, and DYNO tune with their new, state of the art dyno set up for the PCIII.  Seems they are encouraging people to do the PCIII thing....hmmmmm

[VAZHOG]

Has anybody wrote letters to the MC magazines like we did back in 04 and 05 about this issue?  Get the magazines involved in this so that the word gets out, as to the problem and the soulution.  I believe that American Rider magazine has been the most favorable to this site......shoot Buzz a kite.

Magazines? I dropped them when I stopped the paperboy from bringing yesterdays news-paper [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

Bettter to (Hand)write a letter (if you can still find the suff or remember the skill involved) That show you really care because if you are analog enough to get the magzine then they what to keep you as a reader. [smiley=soapbox.gif]

[CVOMOE!!]

Bummer about the new 110.  It does seem to be quite a problem that needs to be addressed.  I'm sure the MOCO will have a fix for it soon as I'm sure they don't want to be replacing all of those engines.  Good idea to get the extended warranty for the '07's so it would seem. Perhaps the new pipes, air, and a good tune may solve the problem but I doubt it.

Good Luck, Moe

[Ted Severns]

I was running at 270 to 275 degrees.  May sound strange, but shanging to Amsoil, I dropped to 235/240.

[RedDevil]

[highlight]I was running at 270 to 275 degrees.  May sound strange, but shanging to Amsoil, I dropped to 235/240[/highlight].

I changed the pipes, AC, and SERT'd my ride right out of the dealership.  When I bought the digital oil stick, I rode the bike for about 100 miles after putting it in.  Ambient temperature outside was about 55 degrees.  I didn't do much stop and go driving as it was a Sunday and traffic was relatively light between this particular dealership and my home.  When I got home and shut the bike down, I immediately checked the temp of the oil and the dipstick read 215.  I've since had it stuck in heavy traffic with ambient outside air temp up in the mid 60's and the highest I've seen it is 255 degrees.  I haven't had a chance to do any temp checks since I've had the 1K and dyno done because the weather here hasn't been the greatest. (Just had snow yesterday) So I don't know how much cooler/hotter, if any change at all, it will run.  I'm running Syn3 in it and don't have a baseline of how hot the bike ran before I went to true duals and SEAC to let it breathe a little better and had the EFI mapped differently, as my bike was not ridden with the stock pipes...I have a set of stock pipes sitting in the basement with 7 miles on them...that's what the bike had on it coming off the truck.  I have almost 1200 mies on the ride now and the rear cylinder badge has not yellowed like a lot of folks have been reporting that still have the stock exhaust sytem on.  So, I can only assume that the rear jug is running cooler and the engine is running cooler overall.  I know my right leg appreciates the lack of heat that my old Ultra gave me...I kept the stock headers on that one.  So far, knock on wood, I haven't seen any of the issues with my 110" that has been listed in the forum, but I do have the seven year warranty, so maybe that was a wise decision on my part.

Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[bikerdude]

We all share your pain but there is a cure. I have installed true duals a air cleaner and a power commander and the heat issue is gone.

Bikerdude

[SPIDERMAN]

LD was horrendous at first with a stock 96" Now it's a 103, running an oil cooler, with Amsoil and an average tune of about 12.5 / 1 via a new SERT. Runs about 218 to 228 and the heat problem from the rear pipe is all but gone. Don't want to get rid of the stock head pipes till I see what folks have to say about running true-duals with the 02 bungs.

B B

[skyglide]

I was running at 270 to 275 degrees.  May sound strange, but shanging to Amsoil, I dropped to 235/240.

Dont let Bagger hear you talking up AMSOIL [smiley=coolblue.gif] I never had any heat issues or strange noises from day one. Before day one installed d&d pipes,air cleaner and custom mapping. One word of advice scrapp the factory pipes. All the heat porblems will disapear.

[Hoist!]

Dont let Bagger hear you talking up AMSOIL [smiley=coolblue.gif] I never had any heat issues or strange noises from day one. Before day one installed d&d pipes,air cleaner and custom mapping. [highlight]One word of advice scrapp the factory pipes. All the heat porblems will disapear.[/highlight]

There are absolutely no heat problems on an '07 110" (when it's 23 deg outside!). Thanks for your recommendation SC. I'm doing the same thing (I have to wait a week, but only rode once so far anyway). I'm trying the SPO's on stock headpipes with a PC first to see how bad, before ordering TD's. Did you try stock headpipes first, with the A/C, mufflers and remap? I figure I can always add the TD's but the breathing and remapping is immediately mandatory! Hoist! 8-)

[skyglide]

There are absolutely no heat problems on an '07 110" (when it's 23 deg outside!). Thanks for your recommendation SC. I'm doing the same thing (I have to wait a week, but only rode once so far anyway). I'm trying the SPO's on stock headpipes with a PC first to see how bad, before ordering TD's. Did you try stock headpipes first, with the A/C, mufflers and remap? I figure I can always add the TD's but the breathing and remapping is immediately mandatory! Hoist! 8-)

My Dyno man said the colder the air temp the worse the heat issue would get without some remapping??? No expert on that one.

Took all factory pipes off. By the way seen you pics of the new ride looks great [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] I would of picked the blue RK but all my vehicles are blue.

[RATKING]

 [smiley=soapbox.gif]  Here is what is going on!   [smiley=soapbox.gif]

 Harley used the solenoid closed left exhaust muffler system in 2006 also.  The intent was to direct the exhaust from both cylinders through the right catalyst muffler for emissions purposes, period.  It clearly choked off the exhaust for the majority of your riding.  The left side muffler solenoid would only open up at RPMs in excess of 4000, then it would act like the exhaust of 2005's and earlier.  Obviously the 2006s would benefit from disabling the solenoid and leaving it open, or simply replace the mufflers with good flowing pieces.  Really, you gotta get that chit of the bike.

For 2007, again as a concession to the EPA, Harley upped the ante and leaned out the Air/Fuel ratio even further to reduce emissions.  This is what is really causing the heat issues with the 2007 bikes.  It is not just with the 110's, the 96's have the same problem.  You absolutely have to undo the emissions concessions that the MOCO has agreed to and get the bike on a pre-2007 standard as soon as you get it.  For the longevity of the motor, it has to be done.

The rear cylinder on a Harley engine has always run hotter, simply because it does not get the same cooling air.  The rear cylinder is in direct alignment with the front; it does not get a direct blast of cold air as the front cylinder does, and in fact gets pre-heated air from the front cylinder, hence the problem.  In the old FLH days, Harley used to alter the cam timing between the front and rear cylinders to compensate for the naturally hotter rear cylinder.  The valve timing on the rear cylinder was milder, to generate less heat.   This worked to some degree, and was necessary with the use of carbs.  But with fuel injection, you had the ability to adjust the timing and fuel for each cylinder individually.  Check you SERT maps between the front and rear cylinders and you will see what I mean.  But with the latest EPA concession, the MOCO has gone too far.  Motors are getting hurt, and bad.

It would be naive to simply take the stance, well; I have an extended warranty so the problem is on them.  It is actually your problem.  You bought an inherently defective piece of chit.  The motors are self-destructing.  You can play these games on a water-cooled bike, but not on an air-cooled motor.  You are flirting with disaster.  I blame Harley MOCO for this.  They should have tested the EPA operating parameters they were agreeing to before they released the bikes for the 2007 model year.  These motors will not hold up.  You have to take corrective action immediately.  Heat is your major enemy on an air-cooled bike, and the MOCO just handed you all a stick of dynamite with a very short fuse.  Ignore the issue, and the problem will definitely present itself; directly or indirectly, the problem is yours.  Harley did the same crap with their cam tensioning issues on the Twin Cam.  This chit is a major no-no.  You do not treat your loyal customers this way.

What do you do with your 2007?  Regardless as to whether you want more performance or not, you have to get the stock factory exhaust off.  You have to eliminate the solenoid system on the left muffler, even on a stock bike.  If you want more performance, here is your opportunity to improve the exhaust.  Then you need to richen the Air/Fuel mixture, whether its with a SERT, Power Commander, Thunderrmax, etc. to improve performance and cool things down.  This in essence will have undone Harley MOCO's  EPA concessions and will have cooled things down, improved performance, gas mileage, and above all, significantly lengthened the life of your motor.  If you want to add performance of top of that, do the air cleaners, custom dual exhaust, cams, etc.  But, even on a stock bike, you have got to get rid of the heat.

My personal friend is a machinist, and we rebuild a lot of motors on a regular basis.  The stock Harley had enough problems with the rear cylinder operating at higher temperatures even before this EPA Bull Chit.  Now it is a disaster.   Often what happens is that guys will overheat the rear cylinder, and the rings will not seat.  Compression is down, the cylinder walls are scored, and there is significant blow-down because the rings did not seat.  The rear cylinder loses compression and uses oil; seen it too many times.   Time will tell.  Personally, I would do the SERT, exhaust, and air cleaner changes immediately on purchase, prior to doing any damage to the motor.  You cannot undo the rear cylinder damage once it has occurred.  You have to prevent it up front.

I will make a prediction, that with the MOCO's willingness to cow-tow to the Feds, that the change to water-cooling will happen much quicker than you think.  Otherwise the motors will not hold up.  This is a major turning point here.  The Harley air-cooled motor will suffer the same fate that Volkswagens air-cooled Beetle suffered in the 1970's; it died.  Get your air cooled Harley while you can, immediately correct what Harley has done to them, and hold on to it.  You have an instant classic Harley, one that will shortly be going the way of the dinosaurs.  Get your vintage piece now and enjoy it.  The MOCO is in the process of destroying its legend, all in the name of progress.

[RedDevil]

[smiley=soapbox.gif]  Here is what is going on!   [smiley=soapbox.gif]

 Harley used the solenoid closed ... I will make a prediction, that with the [highlight]MOCO's willingness to cow-tow to the Feds[/highlight], that the change to water-cooling will happen much quicker than you think.  Otherwise the motors will not hold up.  This is a major turning point here.  The Harley air-cooled motor will suffer the same fate that Volkswagens air-cooled Beetle suffered in the 1970's; it died.  Get your air cooled Harley while you can, immediately correct what Harley has done to them, and hold on to it.  You have an instant classic Harley, one that will shortly be going the way of the dinosaurs.  Get your vintage piece now and enjoy it.  The MOCO is in the process of destroying its legend, all in the name of progress.

RatKing,
While I agree with most everything you said, I disagree in your statement that the MoCo is cow-towing to the Feds.  They don't have any choice.  Believe it or not, the EPA has been more lenient with the MoCo and working with them to lower emissions at a rate that the MoCo can keep up with.  Granted the EPA has gone too far with motorcycles now, but that's not the MoCo's fault.  They don't have any choice, they either go with the EPA's mandates or they go out of business.  Is this the death-nell of the air cooled engine?  The MoCo has seen the writing on the wall for quite a few years now, hence the development of the V-Rod, and from what I've read, potentially a water-cooled Sportster for 2008, to, rumor has it, they are working on and testing an 1800cc version of the revolution engine dressed up as an Electra Glide.  It's just a matter of time.  The "tree huggers" are going to win, even though motorcycles contribute to less than 5% of the total hydrocarbon emissions.  The auto manufacturers think it's unfair that motorcycles aren't made to conform to the same standards as they have to.  Even though there is a gross imbalance in the ratio of cars/trucks to motorcycles on the road.  Don't blame the MoCo for trying to delay and work against the inevitable demise of the air-cooled engine.  The only way to reverse the process and even the playing field for motorcycles, is to petition your Congressmen in to telling the EPA to rethink these assinine emission rules for motorcycles.  I guarantee you, if it wasn't mandated, the MoCo wouldn't do it.    Just my $.02
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[SPIDERMAN]

Off topic I know, but the term is kow-tow pronounced ko to (long O both words) which means to bow when greeting another as the Japanese do.The depth of the bow is relative to the social (or professional) position of the person being bowed to. Friends greeting friends enchange little head bobs, a young guy out of college applying for a job would about touch his forehead to the floor when meeting the head of the dept or company he was applying for work with.

Okay, you guys can get back to your ranting now  

B B  

[RedDevil]

Off topic I know, but the term is kow-tow pronounced ko to (long O both words) which means to bow when greeting another as the Japanese do.The depth of the bow is relative to the social (or professional) position of the person being bowed to. Friends greeting friends enchange little head bobs, a young guy out of college applying for a job would about touch his forehead to the floor when meeting the head of the dept or company he was applying for work with.

Okay, you guys can get back to your ranting now  

B B  

Spidey,
Alright, uncle!!!!!  But I bet the MoCo, still doesn't "bow deeply" to the EPA, not willingly at least....LOL
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[UltraPolecat]

The government expects ALL of us to bow deeply, but we are supposed to turn around first!  [smiley=oops.gif]

Sorry, working on my taxes...

[sooiee]

I guess all I can say is I don't have any heat issues as long as I'm moving.  You all must be doing parade duty or something???  

[Midnight Rider]

RatKing,
While I agree with most everything you said, I disagree in your statement that the MoCo is cow-towing to the Feds.  They don't have any choice.  Believe it or not, the EPA has been more lenient with the MoCo and working with them to lower emissions at a rate that the MoCo can keep up with.  Granted the EPA has gone too far with motorcycles now, but that's not the MoCo's fault.  They don't have any choice, they either go with the EPA's mandates or they go out of business.  Is this the death-nell of the air cooled engine?  The MoCo has seen the writing on the wall for quite a few years now, hence the development of the V-Rod, and from what I've read, potentially a water-cooled Sportster for 2008, to, rumor has it, they are working on and testing an 1800cc version of the revolution engine dressed up as an Electra Glide.  It's just a matter of time.  The "tree huggers" are going to win, even though motorcycles contribute to less than 5% of the total hydrocarbon emissions.  The auto manufacturers think it's unfair that motorcycles aren't made to conform to the same standards as they have to.  Even though there is a gross imbalance in the ratio of cars/trucks to motorcycles on the road.  Don't blame the MoCo for trying to delay and work against the inevitable demise of the air-cooled engine.  The only way to reverse the process and even the playing field for motorcycles, is to petition your Congressmen in to telling the EPA to rethink these assinine emission rules for motorcycles.  I guarantee you, if it wasn't mandated, the MoCo wouldn't do it.    Just my $.02
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

Agree with what you say, Red...however...

Emissions are a real threat, and are not going away anytime soon, so the EPA HAS to do something.  The MOCO has no options with the way things stand now.  Personally, I think there should be some balance to the equation, taking into account the amount of allowable emissions vs. the fuel economy of the vehicle which equates to the VOLUME of bad chit coming out of the exhaust.  If they would do that, the A/C Vtwin would be around for a while longer.  Otherwise, it's doomed...just a matter of time.

Geez...an 1800 Revo...it'll come out of the box with 160HP and 120FPT.  Talk about gettin' around a truck in a hurry   If it's stroked a bit, it would even sound a bit more like an A/C V, although for those who have not heard a Revo with a set of Rineharts on it...it's pretty close at idle, but you'll go deaf at speed.  Lower center of gravity with the tank in the frame...frame mounted fairing...fat a$$ed tire on the rear...6 speaker 200W stereo system...completely integrated communication system, without wires to the helmet...6 speed gearbox, at least.  Hey, doesn't sound too bad to me...

Just like there's nothing that is quite like a HD A/C Vtwin, there's nothing like a Revo engine either...it's still distinctively HD.

[RedDevil]

Agree with what you say, Red...however...

Emissions are a real threat, and are not going away anytime soon, so the EPA HAS to do something.  The MOCO has no options with the way things stand now.  Personally, I think there should be some balance to the equation, taking into account the amount of allowable emissions vs. the fuel economy of the vehicle which equates to the VOLUME of bad chit coming out of the exhaust.  If they would do that, the A/C Vtwin would be around for a while longer.  Otherwise, it's doomed...just a matter of time.

Geez...an 1800 Revo...it'll come out of the box with 160HP and 120FPT.  Talk about gettin' around a truck in a hurry   If it's stroked a bit, it would even sound a bit more like an A/C V, although for those who have not heard a Revo with a set of Rineharts on it...it's pretty close at idle, but you'll go deaf at speed.  Lower center of gravity with the tank in the frame...frame mounted fairing...fat a$$ed tire on the rear...6 speaker 200W stereo system...completely integrated communication system, without wires to the helmet...6 speed gearbox, at least.  Hey, doesn't sound too bad to me...

Just like there's nothing that is quite like a HD A/C Vtwin, there's nothing like a Revo engine either...it's still distinctively HD.

TCnBham,
I couldn't agree with you more.    And that Revo Ultra Classic that you described, sounds pretty slick, even though it is water-cooled.    
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[RATKING]

Hi Red,

I do not know about Sympathy for the MOCO.  They have a history of bringing deficiently designed products to the market, and letting their customers do the product testing for them; then leaving their customers hang in the wind with subsequent warranty issues.  If I have sympathy for anybody, it’s us.

Let’s just look at the recent experience with the introduction of the twin cam engine.  The guys that bought 1999 Twin Cam bikes had the issues with the cam bearings failing and cam bolts breaking.  When this happened, they would literally trash the engine, sending metal throughout.  The MOCO would only do the repairs after you trashed your beloved Harley, and they said not to worry because the damage was limited to the camshaft compartment.  Bull Chit, that metal went throughout the motor.  Literally destroying it, with metal impregnated in the pistons and cylinder walls, completely scoring everything up. Engines literally trashed.  But Harley would not cover that, only fix the cam issue on a trashed engine, gee thanks. This whole scenario was clearly documented in the series of articles in American Iron Magazine.

Look at the issue still going on with the cam tensioners.  It is a well documented problem, people have had major issues with it, and yet Harley MOCO will not preventatively fix anything.  They will fix it after the damage is done.  But then only put new shoes in, replace the oil pump, and then bolt it back together.  The other damage is still there; remember it has already been documented that particulate does not stay contained in the cam compartment. Again, read the tech articles in American Iron Magazine; you will not get the straight scoop from Harley.

Just look at the concern everybody has about being denied warranty claims because they changed the seat on their bike.  If this was any other product or service you bought, and you were treated this way, you would simply take it back, demand a refund, and go somewhere else to spend your hard-earned money.  Harley has taken our patronage and loyalty for granted.  If they significantly alter our beloved air-cooled V-twin with the classic look and sound that we all love, they will see how quickly they piss their loyal fans off.

And regarding the adaptations that Harley has had to make to conform to the EPA, it can be done correctly.  Look at the Suzuki M109R (109ci V-twin), the Yamaha Royal Star (113ci V-twin), and the Kawasaki Vulcan VN 2000 (125ci V-twin), and the big Honda, etc.  These bikes all run great, and do not have built-in time-bomb issues that we Harley owners seem so willingly to accept.  Yes, I have friends that own these machines and they are fully aware of the Harley issues.  Chit, I am supposed to riding the Motorcyle Flagship, envy of other bikers, but they do not have these issues; no ticking time-bombs.  They do not have to worry about spending big time and expense to undo deficient engineering and quality control.  What is that all about? I am not going to buy a new machine, pay a hefty premium for it, and know that it is self-destructing on the virgin ride home.  I am getting fed up with it.

And before anybody thinks I am too jaded or the Harley Anti-Christ, let it be known that I have a collection of 16 vintage Pans and Shovels, and use my Screaming Eagles as riders.  I love these bikes, and dread the day that they no longer exist in the traditional Harley image so clearly burned in my mind.
 [smiley=soapbox.gif] [smiley=soapbox.gif]

[RJ749]

Hi Red,
I do not know about Sympathy for the MOCO.  [highlight]And regarding the adaptations that Harley has had to make to conform to the EPA, it can be done correctly[/highlight].  Look at the Suzuki M109R (109ci V-twin), the Yamaha Royal Star (113ci V-twin), and the Kawasaki Vulcan VN 2000 (125ci V-twin), and the big Honda, etc.  These bikes all run great, and do not have built-in time-bomb issues that we Harley owners seem so willingly to accept.   [smiley=soapbox.gif] [smiley=soapbox.gif]

RK,

I don't disagree with you, I had a 99 RK and a 2000 UC and road every mile wondering if I was going to grenade (never did) but I also bought warranties on those in case I kept them more than a couple years.

However, with regard to the emission minutia there is one glaring difference in the examples you use for it being done correctly; by personal experience with another "icon" we all will someday face a change in our beloved MoCo product in the same way that traditionalist Porsche owners did in the late 90's when they had to start packing anti-freeze.

Royal Star  79-cubic-inch (1294cc) liquid-cooled, DOHC, 70-degree V-4

Kawasaki    Four-stroke, liquid-cooled, DOHC, four valve per cylinder,   1,352 cc

Honda        Liquid-cooled, 52° V-twin, SOHC, 3-valves per cylinder   1,312 cc

Since the EPA drives emissions and they aren't getting any less strict, we may well face h20 in our future in order to meet stricter guidelines.  The other large bore mfr's didn't and don't have the heritage we do and therefore don't have to face the loyal owners that the MoCo does when they make a change.

While the V-Rod was developed to expand the offerings of HD, they went to the number one automotive design/research facility in the world to build it; Porsche's Weissach facility in the hills outside of Zuffenhausen.  Porsche had already bitten this bullet and watercooled its "boxer" style engine which was air cooled since the 40's.  Everyone howled it would be the end of Porsche as we know it.  Some feel it was, Porsche was selling roughly 15,000 units a year in the US, including Boxster which was already water cooled in 1997.  But today, Porsche sells 40,000 plus units a year in the US, approximately 50% of the world wide production, granted some of these are not the traditional boxer engine equipped sport cars, but clearly the transition to water cooled engines without giving up any of the efficiency of the air cooled engine worked.

Somewhere in Milwaukie (or Weissach) you can imagine there are engineers tooling around on a Hog that has green slime running through its veins.  

I might also point out that with the water came performance:

993 Engine: 3.4 litre normally aspirated air cooled VarioRam engine producing 285 hp

996 Engine: 3.4 litre normally aspirated liquid cooled producing 300 hp

Once they had the emissions/cooling figured out they not only had gained the 15 hp they went bigger since the engine cooling and emissions were no longer an issue:

997 Engine:  3.6 litre normally aspirated  325 hp
997 S Eng:   3.8 litre normally aspirated  355 hp

All of this by way of explanation that like it or not, we either live with the MoCo struggle to get a handle on the air cooled cooling/emission issue to maintain the heritage or fold our cards and deal with the slime.  However, if slime equals hp and cooling (and reliability) I am not so sure it would ultimately be a bad thing once we all got over it.

Some of us never would (get over it) and our air cooled bikes would instantly be classics and worth more money.  Many would make the change and be happy for it.

If the solution to many of the emission related issues is to get wet and the result is reliability and increased horsepower...............I for one, may just have to get wet. [smiley=soapbox.gif]

[RedDevil]

Hi Red,

I do not know about Sympathy for the MOCO.  They have a history of bringing deficiently designed products to the market, and letting their customers do the product testing for them; then leaving their customers hang in the wind with subsequent warranty issues.  If I have sympathy for anybody, it’s us.

Let’s just look at the recent experience with the introduction of the twin cam engine.  The guys that bought 1999 Twin Cam bikes had the issues with the cam bearings failing and cam bolts breaking.  When this happened, they would literally trash the engine, sending metal throughout.  The MOCO would only do the repairs after you trashed your beloved Harley, and they said not to worry because the damage was limited to the camshaft compartment.  Bull Chit, that metal went throughout the motor.  Literally destroying it, with metal impregnated in the pistons and cylinder walls, completely scoring everything up. Engines literally trashed.  But Harley would not cover that, only fix the cam issue on a trashed engine, gee thanks. This whole scenario was clearly documented in the series of articles in American Iron Magazine.

Look at the issue still going on with the cam tensioners.  It is a well documented problem, people have had major issues with it, and yet Harley MOCO will not preventatively fix anything.  They will fix it after the damage is done.  But then only put new shoes in, replace the oil pump, and then bolt it back together.  The other damage is still there; remember it has already been documented that particulate does not stay contained in the cam compartment. Again, read the tech articles in American Iron Magazine; you will not get the straight scoop from Harley.

Just look at the concern everybody has about being denied warranty claims because they changed the seat on their bike.  If this was any other product or service you bought, and you were treated this way, you would simply take it back, demand a refund, and go somewhere else to spend your hard-earned money.  Harley has taken our patronage and loyalty for granted.  If they significantly alter our beloved air-cooled V-twin with the classic look and sound that we all love, they will see how quickly they piss their loyal fans off.

And regarding the adaptations that Harley has had to make to conform to the EPA, it can be done correctly.  Look at the Suzuki M109R (109ci V-twin), the Yamaha Royal Star (113ci V-twin), and the Kawasaki Vulcan VN 2000 (125ci V-twin), and the big Honda, etc.  These bikes all run great, and do not have built-in time-bomb issues that we Harley owners seem so willingly to accept.  Yes, I have friends that own these machines and they are fully aware of the Harley issues.  Chit, I am supposed to riding the Motorcyle Flagship, envy of other bikers, but they do not have these issues; no ticking time-bombs.  They do not have to worry about spending big time and expense to undo deficient engineering and quality control.  What is that all about? I am not going to buy a new machine, pay a hefty premium for it, and know that it is self-destructing on the virgin ride home.  I am getting fed up with it.

And before anybody thinks I am too jaded or the Harley Anti-Christ, let it be known that I have a collection of 16 vintage Pans and Shovels, and use my Screaming Eagles as riders.  I love these bikes, and dread the day that they no longer exist in the traditional Harley image so clearly burned in my mind.
 [smiley=soapbox.gif] [smiley=soapbox.gif]

Ratking,
Please don't misconstrue my words as sympathy for the MoCo.  I wasn't saying we should sympathize with the company.  I was just stating that HD and thier working with the EPA is one of the reasons that the emmission standards for motorcycles have lagged behind automobiles.  (Is that a design problem caused by HD, could be [smiley=nixweiss.gif], I'm not an expert in that field by any means.) As far as the cam chain tensioner problems, I never had any of those issues with my ride, so I can't agree or disagree with you on that and have to go with the reported issues.  My 02 worked great and I had over 30K on it when I traded it in on the 07 Jester.  Every manufacturer has problems when a newly designed model year comes out.  The technology turnover in today's world it just too quick to do the extensive R&D that used be done in years gone by.  From what I've read, Harley still tries to test new engines for 2-3 years of extensive road testing before introducing it to the public.  Face it, they're still using an engine based on a 50 year-old design.  The Japanese are basically running new up-to-date designs compared to Harley because they are relatively new to the v-twin market.  But would you be happy with an air-cooled engine from HD that didn't look like an HD?  Look at the mixed response the V-Rod motor gets, even to this day, after it's been out for awhile now and we've all gotten a chance to get used to it.  It's still a split opinion on them bad boys.  We know the pitfalls of the Harleys, but yet we keep buying them and like you said, the MoCo knows that, but they always seem to do just enough to keep us coming back.  JMHO.
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red  

[UltraPolecat]

I am probably one of the guys that makes it bad for everybody else.  I bleed Harley blood and have for many years.  I can appreciate a fine machine made by a Euro or Jap company but I am not inspired by them.  As long as a solution to the problems can be found I am well satisfied.  My Milk Dud paint, my porous rear cylinder, my fried pipes and mufflers all fixed and now all good.  I still pause and stare at that black witch every time I walk by it.  

Can't explain it.  Just know it.  Would a V-Rod do it?  Sure.  A liquid Ultra, sure.  There is a place for old school, but change is coming for sure.  Its just life...Just let it be a Harley. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[RJ749]

 There is a place for old school, but change is coming for sure.  Its just life...Just let it be a Harley. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

That's really all that needs to be said on the subject U P. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[RedDevil]

 There is a place for old school, but change is coming for sure.  Its just life...Just let it be a Harley. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Couldn't of said it better myself.
cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[Hoist!]

Not me. Air-cooled, pushrod, V-twin, HD. Don't care if I ever buy another new bike again. I have 3 of them suited for different types of riding. I'll possibly sell or trade one for another new one. But if they stop making them, I'll keep these for the rest of my life. No qualms about it! Old school all the way. I love dinosaurs! Hoist! 8-)

[GC_Super]

A water cooled version of my current bike wouldn't hurt my feelings one little bit. Tuck the radiator between the lower fairings and you wouldn't even notice it. Progress and change are going to happen, might as well live with it.  Or ride old school forever. Whatever makes you happy.  

[skyglide]

I would be willing to try that water thing and some anti slip brakes. Nothing wrong with old school but there's room for much improvement

[UltraPolecat]

Yeah, I think they could make a tourer LC and it would be great.  I do like my little Sportster to be AC.  They don't overheat over 100 MPH!! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  Guess I could give a VRod a try....

[Midnight Rider]

Yeah, I think they could make a tourer LC and it would be great.  I do like my little Sportster to be AC.  They don't overheat over 100 MPH!! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  Guess I could give a VRod a try....

The V is a blast...the first time you're sitting in traffic and the fans come on, it's kind of weird, but other than that, you never know the radiator is there.

A water cooled big twin would not necessarily be a bad thing...keep the basic design/feel/sound.  After all, the fins on the cylinders on the Revo engine are just there for looks...no reason the same could not be true on a TC.

[UltraPolecat]

Wow, fins just for show.  Never even thunk it!! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

Makes perfect sense!

[Jack]

Gentlemen,

I was at the Dlrship that has the bike FXSTSSE  [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=jalapeno.gif] [smiley=orange.gif] [smiley=pineapple.gif] [smiley=pepper.gif] [smiley=mango.gif] [smiley=cucumber.gif] [smiley=apple.gif] in the color I want.  Still working the deal.

Purposely talked to the service mgr about this HEAT problem.  He was in the dark about any problems in this area or won't admit it.

While searching for HD Financials, I found myself in Amzoil comparing Oils.  If you haven't been there, I suggest you do it.  Major comparison on HD oils and theirs in all areas of the bike.

As I have heard in many arenas, SORTING OUT, I believe is the term.  Looks like this should be done by anyone capable of doing so on 07 SE models.

Semper Fi,   Jack

[JCZ]

While searching for HD Financials, I found myself in Amzoil comparing Oils.  If you haven't been there, I suggest you do it.  Major comparison on HD oils and theirs in all areas of the bike.

Yep, HD Financials and motor oil...........I'd expect to find those two together. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

[greglyon]

Don't mean to hijack this thread but could someone explain how water cooling an engine brings emissions down as well as increase performance.

[VaEagle]

Hi IROAR,
I am by no means a mechanic or engineer but from what I have read over the years there are several reasons for a water-cooled engine burning cleaner.
First it can be made to closer tolerances so there is less oil blowby.The water-cooling can take the increased heat from parts rubbing closer together.
Second the air-fuel ratios can be a little different and combustion can be made a little more complete somehow.Less  improper detonation and unburnt fuel expelled.
As far as increasing performance I would think of it as ,an amount of gas has the potential for X amount of horspower at 100% burn and transfer and anything that prevents the 100% burn rate or interferes with the transfer of that power means less performance to us.
Examples would be if the gas is not completely burned but escapes through leaky valves,gaskets,piston rings etc. That potential power is lost.Could also be oil in the combustion area etc. So the closer you get to 100% combustion and 100% transfer of the energy to mechanical horsepower you will get improved performance.
This is one reason I have heard that Harley decided years ago not to go to a shaft drive on their bikes.(They had a model in WWII for African desert) They lost too much horsepower in the drivetrain so they stayed with chains and belts to deliver more horsepower to the road.
I'm sure cost came into play too.
I'm sure one of the site experts will chime in soon to provide a better answer. 8-)

[RJ749]

Don't mean to hijack this thread but could someone explain how water cooling an engine brings emissions down as well as increase performance.

In addition to what VaEagle has said the more efficient an engine runs with a complete burn the closer to a lean condition you run.  By definition lean is too little gas/air combination and rich is the opposite with too much gas/air ratio.  As engineers strive to get emmissions in check and continue to improve performance, the closer to the edge of lean they operate the engine.  Lean equals heat.

As is indicated in this thread, the engines that are running hot (lean) have this condition resolved with a SERT/PC which allows tuners to richen the mixture and properly distribute it to the engine.

Bottom line, water is the most efficient way that manufacturers have found to cool engines and with a cooler engine they can run them closer to the edge of lean performance accomplishing a better and more efficient engine that produces fewer emissions and greater performance.

[Hoist!]

And with thermostatic control of the cooling water, it operates at design parameters and maintains more precise cooling water temperature differences. This results in predictable heat rejection, regardless of ambient conditions when the cooling water system is designed properly. Air cooled engines are subjected to varying temeratures for heat rejection so they are designed for worst case temperatures. With the strict EPA emmissions regulations now applied to bikes, they are at the edge of whether they can meet them. That's why these motors are dangerously lean. It can not get better and will shortly signal the end of air-cooled engines. Some new technology is out there for air-cooled design that might help extend it's life. S&S designed a new style V-Twin called the Max Wedge. They claim it's more efficient. If so, it can handle the EPA req'ts., for now. Eventually, it will end though. Frankly, I'm expecting my new SERK to be the last new air-cooled HD I will ever own! Too bad. If everyone was on a bike instead of all the cages, we wouldn't need the EPA! Hoist! 8-)

[RedDevil]

And with thermostatic control of the cooling water, it operates at design parameters and maintains more precise cooling water temperature differences. This results in predictable heat rejection, regardless of ambient conditions when the cooling water system is designed properly. Air cooled engines are subjected to varying temeratures for heat rejection so they are designed for worst case temperatures. With the strict EPA emmissions regulations now applied to bikes, they are at the edge of whether they can meet them. That's why these motors are dangerously lean. It can not get better and will shortly signal the end of air-cooled engines. Some new technology is out there for air-cooled design that might help extend it's life. S&S designed a new style V-Twin called the Max Wedge. They claim it's more efficient. If so, it can handle the EPA req'ts., for now. Eventually, it will end though. Frankly, I'm expecting my new SERK to be the last new air-cooled HD I will ever own! Too bad. If everyone was on a bike instead of all the cages, we wouldn't need the EPA! Hoist! 8-)

Howie,
I've had water-cooled bikes, yes I strayed from HD's for awhile , but then saw the light and came back to HD.  I like you, fear this will probably be the last air-cooled Harley that I will ever own.  I just don't see how with the more restrictive EPA requirements coming down the road, that any air-cooled engine will be able to run that lean and handle that heat without some sort of a forced cooling method.  The end of an era is near.  Fortunately, we'll be grandfathered and won't have to give up our precious air-cooled twins.
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[RJ749]

Howie,
I've had water-cooled bikes, yes I strayed from HD's for awhile , but then saw the light and came back to HD.  I like you, fear this will probably be the last air-cooled Harley that I will ever own.  I just don't see how with the more restrictive EPA requirements coming down the road, that any air-cooled engine will be able to run that lean and handle that heat without some sort of a forced cooling method.  The end of an era is near.  Fortunately, [highlight]we'll be grandfathered [/highlight]and won't have to give up our precious air-cooled twins.
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

While old enough, I would prefer not to be a grandfather just now. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

[Hoist!]

While old enough, I would prefer not to be a grandfather just now. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

You sure got that right Rog!!! Hoist! 8-)

[The Mysterious Q!]

I must say this has been some interesting reading.The stuff i learn around here is priceless. I have been doing alot of reading lately( on the site) and it most always is better than turning the pages of a magazine. Soon the laptop will have a cradle in the loo so i can cancel my subscriptions to the mags and catch up on my posts. thanks Boys,  Q

[RedDevil]

While old enough, I would prefer not to be a grandfather just now. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

It's not so bad...I just became one in October, we were blessed with a little baby grand daugher.  And you know what? It doesn't make me feel a day older than I did before I became one.  In fact, I'm sure as she grows older, she make me feel younger, or at least I'm going to have to act younger to keep up with her....
Cheeers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[Hoist!]

It's not so bad...I just became one in October, we were blessed with a little baby grand daugher.  And you know what? It doesn't make me feel a day older than I did before I became one.  In fact, I'm sure as she grows older, she make me feel younger, or at least I'm going to have to act younger to keep up with her....
Cheeers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

That's great Red, and uder those circumstances I'd be OK with it too. Overjoyed, in fact. My daughters are 24 and 21 and are still with me! One just finished college last year and the other's still in college. Grandkids are not in that picture, I hope. [smiley=nixweiss.gif] One day, but not now! Hoist! 8-)

[HogBreath]

Hoist, I've got two boys, 22 and 27. Want to introduce them to your girls?

[Hoist!]

Hoist, I've got two boys, 22 and 27. Want to introduce them to your girls?

What's the Dowery worth? $$$   Hoist! 8-)

[HogBreath]

What's the Dowery worth? $$$   Hoist! 8-)

NO need to pay me! I consider you a friend.

[RJ749]

My son is 28 and when he was 17 a girl told him he was a dad.  

Problem as I saw it was it couldn't be, timing was all wrong.  I sent his ass to Hawaii to work with a friend of mine for that summer.  After about 90 days she makes the announcement.

I had it figured, based on jr. high birds and bees class that unless it took 11 months to have a child he couldn't be the dad.  Anyway, baby was born premature in February and he works a job, plays on the HS baseball team and spends all kinds of time with mom and the kid through the remainder of his Junior year.

I never let them in the house.  Told him if he would simply get a DNA test to be sure I would be "all in", otherwise don't bring the kid here 'cause I don't want to become invested if it isn't his.  Summer comes and goes and in September, with the baby now 7 months old the county wants to be paid for the Hospital fees.  He hadn't signed any papers accepting being the father so they issued a summons for a DNA test.  

The mom had been coming up with excuse after excuse about doing one, but a court ordered shut her up.  BINGO, not his kid.  Don't you love science?  Anyway, so it goes.

Now he has just sold a house he jointly owns with a young lady he met in college and they have been together for five years or so, bought the house together (against better advice), she ends up in another relationship, dumps my son and wants out.

Best part of this deal is the house sells in two days, boyfriend dumps her three weeks later and now they are getting separate new living quarters.  So no, don't need to be grandad just now, but hopefully when the time comes under the right set of circumstances all will be fine.

[Hoist!]

NO need to pay me! I consider you a friend.

Tempting HB!!! Hoist! 8-)

[Ghost Rider]

Hoist, I've got two boys, 22 and 27. Want to introduce them to your girls?

Holy crap, now the site is offering dating services!!  Heck if we add electronic bill paying, and tax services I won't need to go anywhere else on the web.

 [smiley=pineapple.gif]

Ghost

[HogBreath]

Hahahahah Ghost. I spit my drink out.

[Hoist!]

Holy crap, now the site is offering dating services!!  Heck if we add electronic bill paying, and tax services I won't need to go anywhere else on the web.

 [smiley=pineapple.gif]

Ghost

Dating services! Ha! I'm trying to get 'em hitched! Hoist! 8-)

[harleyteam]

if they look like you,  you might be stuck with them for quite a while [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

[Fired00d]

if they look like you,  you might be stuck with them for quite a while [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

[smiley=oops.gif] Ouch!!!! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Hoist!]

[smiley=oops.gif] Ouch!!!! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

  Not really, he's probably right! Good thing for them they don't,huh?   Hoist! 8-)

[Fired00d]

  Not really, he's probably right! Good thing for them they don't,huh?   Hoist! 8-)

You may have hit on a good point there, can't argue w/that.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[harleyteam]

just having hair would probably greatly increase there chances of gettin hitched.


sorry,  been drinkin

[Hoist!]

just having hair would probably greatly increase there chances of gettin hitched.


sorry,  been drinkin

Is that all I gotta do is get hair? Then they'll get hitched? Hoist! 8-)

[harleyteam]

post their pics here,,,, lets see 24 + 21= 45

yeah, you could probably get rid of them both in one shot.

[RJ749]

Here's a couple seesters.............I think they are looking to get married as well

[harleyteam]

thanks alot.  wine isn't that easy to clean off my monitor [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[RedDevil]

Here's a couple seesters.............I think they are looking to get married as well

OMG!!!!  One mullet is too much, but TWO??  Now, I've got to empty all of the coffee out of my laptop...thanks Rog
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[mtncop73]

Here's a couple seesters.............I think they are looking to get married as well

The "girl" in the back looks as mean as anyone I have ever seen...scary!!!

[RATKING]

Hi Guys,

   Sorry I have been away, I am dealing with a personal tragedy.  I am laughing at the dating game twist on this thread.  Without knowing Hoist, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt anyway; I am sure his daughters are adorable.  

   Anyway, regarding the bikes RK listed as watercooled, yes, those are.  But the big Yamaha 102 and 113 V-twins are still Air Cooled.  These big Royal Star bikes do have a following, and the ones I know run trouble free.  But there is no doubt that water-cooling an engine helps not only in performance but also in emissions.  Confining an engine to a controlled and narrow operating temperature range allows the manufacturer to truly fine tune an engines operating parameters and build an engine to tighter specs.   No doubt about that.

   Kawasaki is selling their Vulcan 2000 (125 cubic inch) V-twin.  This engine is water-cooled, but it still looks like an air-cooled motor with the cooling fins.  It is a push rod OHV style motor just like Harley.  It even has a single crank-pin like Harley with the uneven crank firing pulses giving it that Harley sound.  This bike kicks ass, I have ridden them.  And there are no operating issues or built-in-time bombs (as of yet).  Am I saying I want one, No!  But if Harley were to watercool their engine in the same fashion that Kawasaki has, I think that would be the direction to go.  I would still be in the game for Harley's Big Twin.

   My fear however is that Harley is going in the direction of the V-Rod.  I am not knocking the V-Rod, its a great bike.  It is a great bike to have in the product line, but it is not the Harley Icon that the MOCO built its reputation on; the Big V-Twin is.  I keep hearing rumors that this is the motor that Harley will be using in all their bikes soon, and that would be a disaster.  If Harley did that, they would stun their loyal customer base.  I hope to hell that is not what they are going to do.  If that is where we are heading, I will never sell any of my current collection of Harley machines.  If anybody is aware of any other rumor on this, please lets air it.  I am getting really nervous about this.

   Regarding my comments on Harley letting bikes out with inherent problems and letting their customers Beta-test them, that is a fact.  My best friends Dad taught Harley field technicians in Milwaukee for years until he passed.  I know more about this subject matter than I want to discuss.  Needless to say, some of the current 2007 model year issues relating to self-destructing engines, poor operating characteristics, porous heads and trans cases, etc. are an example of what I am talking about.  They should not be doing it, and are taking us for granted.  I am beginning to honestly believe that they do not derserve the allegiance we give them.  

   Ya, You Know, I bleed Harley blood too; have for many, many years.  Still love the bikes, but I am starting to get tired of being bled.  

[Tros]

[smiley=soapbox.gif]  Here is what is going on!   [smiley=soapbox.gif]

 Harley used the solenoid closed left exhaust muffler system in 2006 also.  The intent was to direct the exhaust from both cylinders through the right catalyst muffler for emissions purposes, period.  It clearly choked off the exhaust for the majority of your riding.  The left side muffler solenoid would only open up at RPMs in excess of 4000, then it would act like the exhaust of 2005's and earlier. obviously the 2006s would benefit from disabling the solenoid and leaving it open, or simply replace the mufflers with good flowing pieces.  Really, you gotta get that chit of the bike.

RATKING-Was this exhaust valve used only on the 2006 CVO bikes or all touring models?  I didn't know about this "exhaust redirection" scheme.  Interesting.

I'd love to see your collection of 16 vintage Pans and Shovels, do you have any pics posted here?   

[bisounours]

Morning Tros,

In Europe we know the problem with the solenoïds.
On our HD, all models, we have active Intake and Exhauts.
These solenoïds manage flaps in tha Air Cleaner and in the right exhaut. It's the reason why we have not the same internal diameter in our exhausts. See the pic.
The flaps are closed between 1000 and 4000 RPM.
Why ? only for the homologation about the level of the noise.
When the bike run at 1000 RPM, the level of noise is acceptable. flaps open.
When the bike run between 1000 and 4000 RPM, generally we are in the city and the noise's level do not exceed 90db for the homologation : the flaps are closed.
After 4000 RPM, we are on the road or highway and the flaps are open.

The fist bike were we found this flaps is BUELL.

I know not if RATKING speak about the same solenoïd because he mention the left exhaust.

I put the pics on the next mails for the active Intake and Exhaust.

Jacques

[bisounours]

Active exhaust and the flap

[bisounours]

Active Intake and the flap

[Tros]

Good afternoon Jacques.  Thanks for the pictures & info.  I didn't know about the intake flap either.   Are these exhaust & intake flaps only on the CVO models?

[bisounours]

Hello Tros,

The flap in the exhaust is on the Buell since 2 or 3 years.
Only the 2007 models, stock and CVO are mounted with the active system.

Our problem is when we wish to upgrade in Stage I ( Exhaust, A/C).
And we need that for to ride with a real HD (HP, torque and sound)
It seems that the only way is to put a ThundeMax with Autotune and to forget the warranty.
Actually we have not a SE Stage I US map for update our ECM.
With tyoe of map, we'll not have the management of DTC error codes because our flaps will be dismounted or disconnected.

Jacques

[MTB]

So, I have a 2007 SERK with about 500 miles on it. Apart from the fact that it had some initial problems (gas gauge malfunction, main fuse to ECU blew), it has been OK. But is it the consensus of the group that to fix this excessive heat issue I need to change out the stock exhaust (to what,  like V & H duals?) and have the remapping download? Do I need to add a power commander or some other device like that? Will all of this really solve the problem? (my concern is that I do all of this and then the engine blows and I am told that the warranty is void because of the mods).

What to do???

[HogBreath]

So, I have a 2007 SERK with about 500 miles on it. Apart from the fact that it had some initial problems (gas gauge malfunction, main fuse to ECU blew), it has been OK. But is it the consensus of the group that to fix this excessive heat issue I need to change out the stock exhaust (to what,  like V & H duals?) and have the remapping download? Do I need to add a power commander or some other device like that? Will all of this really solve the problem? (my concern is that I do all of this and then the engine blows and I am told that the warranty is void because of the mods).

What to do???

MTB

I'me a relatively new member and I've been through the same thing as you are looking at. I posted a link yesterday about a guy who bought his wife a new HD RoadKing. Here's the link.

http://www.coolclimbing.com/2007harleydavidsonroadkingclassi.htm

It's rather lengthy but to me, It was worth the time to read it. Especially the part about the anonymous person who emailed him. To me, some pretty informative writings. You may want to check it out! Good Luck!

[harleyteam]

all I've done to mine, is changed the mufflers(got a new set on ebay for $100 shipped)
just had the PCIII installed so the dealer could richen it up a bit.  should now run cooler. and my dealer will see to it that my warrantee is good.

[skreminegul07]

MTB

I'me a relatively new member and I've been through the same thing as you are looking at. I posted a link yesterday about a guy who bought his wife a new HD RoadKing. Here's the link.

http://www.coolclimbing.com/2007harleydavidsonroadkingclassi.htm

It's rather lengthy but to me, It was worth the time to read it. Especially the part about the anonymous person who emailed him. To me, some pretty informative writings. You may want to check it out! Good Luck!

Very interesting site.  I sent them my story about quality, excessice heat even with an oil cooler, and with a much higher price tag!

[skreminegul07]

all I've done to mine, is changed the mufflers(got a new set on ebay for $100 shipped)
just had the PCIII installed so the dealer could richen it up a bit.  should now run cooler. and my dealer will see to it that my warrantee is good.

Which seller on E bays did you buy from?  There are several.  Which Mod did you select 1,2,3?  How does it sound?  Quality?

Thanks 

[woody]

 Too bad these upgrades can't be done before we buy, but we do end up with our own individual bike no matter how small the upgrade is. And sometimes we end up with not only a better looking machine, but a much better running one.

[harleyteam]

Which seller on E bays did you buy from?  There are several.  Which Mod did you select 1,2,3?  How does it sound?  Quality?

Thanks 

just sent you a PM with an ebay listing the guy is doing.  it tells you all about them. cheap and sounds great.

[tompen]

I was at my dealer today and asked about the "HOT" engine problem. SM said the update seems to help, but they do run lean. He said they can download sofware that will cut the ignition on the rear cyl. to fire only every four times while leaving the injector active if it overheats in traffic. The fuel will cool the cylinder. MOCO will pay to have the update installed, and if you don't like it, they will uninstall it one time. Anybody tried this?? Upstate NY, I'm a few weeks away from trying anything not having to do with snow.
 

[harleyteam]

your cheapest way around the lean and heat,, is what I did as stated above.

you can try the moco fix,  but think about it.  if the fuel is still pumping (and cooling-so they say)
where does that unburned fuel go???

It will put a nice fine slimy film all over the back of your bike.

[Tros]

your cheapest way around the lean and heat,, is what I did as stated above.

you can try the moco fix,  but think about it.  if the fuel is still pumping (and cooling-so they say)
where does that unburned fuel go???

It will put a nice fine slimy film all over the back of your bike.

I would imagine some of the unburned fuel from the non-firing cylinder would also end up getting past the rings and into the oil.

[ESJ JESTER]

I think they shut the injector off so no fuel (burned or unburned) goes in at idle thus  no heat generated....sitting to long  head temp goes up from heat transfer from working cylinder and injector comes back on and makes fuel squirt and cool again   or so there   wackey  idea  is supposed to work.  I dunno  but   rube goldberg  and the game mouse trap come to mind.... and that squrriel  in the cage  too....   things to think of at a stop lite in the south maybe?