www.CVOHARLEY.com

CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: Black Diamond on November 11, 2007, 11:47:48 AM

Title: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on November 11, 2007, 11:47:48 AM
Well I have been gathering information for my winter motor build for several months. It has been and still is quite the learning experience. I would like to thank all the members of this site. Many have offered very timely information on various issues such as chain vs gear drive, Timkin / Torrington bearings, cam support plate, etc.

A special thanks to the following for sharing their knowledge and patience:
Dennis - Cripple Creek
Dave & Otto - Engines by Otto
Steve - GMR Performance
TR - T Man's Performance
Roger & Kevin - Gutterridge Harley Davidson (Danville, IL - motor builder)

I have several options I am looking at so I thought I would post them here to get the input from this group. I understand I must carefully weigh the responses, but many heads in the huddle can work if your careful.

All options will have the crank sent to Darkhorse Crank / Hobbin Bros to replace the rod, reassemble, balance and true. Timken bearings and Torrington bearing installed for crank and cam. A billet cam support plate (R&R, Fueling, or the new Harley SE plate #25282-07) I am going to do what I can, within my budget, to bulletproof the bottom. I plan on keeping this scoot for life. I would like to thank the MoCo for making me spend more money to do what should be OEM. :soapbox:

Option 1: 110 cu motor
T-Man head work on 110 SE Heads w/manual compression releases
T-Man CP pistons
T-Man 590 cam
T-Man modify existing 50mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Quick Install Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome)
Least expensive option

Note: TR (T-Man) does not think much of these heads for a 110, intake valve too large. I may get used SE Performance Heads to keep the "Screamin Eagle" logo.

Option 2: 117 / 124 cu motor I can pick either, same price
T-Man head work on 110 SE Heads w/manual compression releases
Revolution Performance 117 or 124 cu cylinder and piston kit
T-Man machining case to increase bore size
T-Man 590 cam
SE 58mmTB
SE Pro High Flow Injector Kit
SE Roller Rockers
SE Quick Install Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers
Most expensive

Option 3: 110 cu motor Gear drive cam
GMR Performance weld / head work on existing 110 SE Head with manual compression releases
HD stock flat head pistons
Gear Drive Install Kit
R&R 615 / 585 gear drive cam
R&R Cam Plate, Cover, New Style Oil Pump
Inner and outer gear drive kit
Roller Rockers
4130 Chromemoly Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers
Note: Steve (GRM was only builder to recommend gear drive due to poor HD lower problems with crank, cam plate, etc.
see his post http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=17908.msg285966#msg285966

These options run in the area from $5000 to $7500. A great deal of that cost is the lower end. My builder is giving me 20% off on Harley parts. They will warranty their work. I have a lot of trust in these guys based on my own experiences with them. Guys and Gals, let me know you ideas and thoughts.

JW

Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: SBB on November 11, 2007, 12:17:41 PM
B/D

Your choices seem to be good.

My choice was Tman

Tman for the Lowrider 126/121 with 15K miles on the motor after mods.

Tman for the Frontier 140/141 with 5K miles on the motor after mods.

Tman on the SERG, a mild build and just cleaning up the rest of what's there.

If you think he doesn't like the heads on a 110 don't ask him about a Marelli system on the pre Delphi bikes. OMG!


TR was having issues with his dyno but those have been worked out.
The 590 cam is an awesome cam in conjunction with his headwork.
Big #'s don't mean squat if it doesn't live. Check other builders, Tman's parts have a great rep!

If I lived close to Dennis I would buy Tman's parts and have him assemble.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.



S
  /
    B

 :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on November 13, 2007, 06:52:17 PM
Thanks S / B

My guys are very high on T-Man. They have done a number of his builds. All of them with excellent results. So far the only downside has been the 110 heads. I'm thinking about the SE Pro Performance Heads or the stock heads off my 07 Steet Glide. Then there's the cam support plate issue.

JW   
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on November 19, 2007, 08:29:53 PM
Well I have unfortunately joined the "Leakers club"  Just put 3673 miles on an 08 SERK and she's leaking from the rear cylinder head gasket!!!!  This is completely unacceptable on a $+30,000 scooter.  >:(  Now I'm more incline to go to a 117 / 124 to get rid of the Harley top end.

I'm looking for informed input.

Do I upgrade as a 110?
Put the 117 / 124 cu in RevPref cylinder on with a different head?
RevPref or Axtell? 
What head?

Have to call the boys in the morning and start over......CHIT

Dang, I thought I was close to doing this build. I have to start with a reliable base to make a reliable motor.

Looking for help guys. This is frustrating

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: FNGw/08SERK on November 19, 2007, 09:02:08 PM
Well I have unfortunately joined the "Leakers club"  Just put 3673 miles on an 08 SERK and she's leaking from the rear cylinder head gasket!!!!  This is completely unacceptable on a $+30,000 scooter.  >:(  Now I'm more incline to go to a 117 / 124 to get rid of the Harley top end.

I'm looking for informed input.

Do I upgrade as a 110?
Put the 117 / 124 cu in RevPref cylinder on with a different head?
RevPref or Axtell? 
What head?

Have to call the boys in the morning and start over......CHIT

Dang, I thought I was close to doing this build. I have to start with a reliable base to make a reliable motor.

Looking for help guys. This is frustrating

JW
The FNG is biting his nails!  :'( Sorry for your troubles BD
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on November 20, 2007, 01:15:43 AM
Well I have unfortunately joined the "Leakers club"  Just put 3673 miles on an 08 SERK and she's leaking from the rear cylinder head gasket!!!!  This is completely unacceptable on a $+30,000 scooter.  >:(  Now I'm more incline to go to a 117 / 124 to get rid of the Harley top end.

I'm looking for informed input.

Do I upgrade as a 110?
Put the 117 / 124 cu in RevPref cylinder on with a different head?
RevPref or Axtell? 
What head?

Have to call the boys in the morning and start over......CHIT

Dang, I thought I was close to doing this build. I have to start with a reliable base to make a reliable motor.

Looking for help guys. This is frustrating

JW


First off, nobody makes engines or cases for these bikes! So your choice is to build an entire engine with their cases, or just rebuild the top end. I can't stress enough that, no matter what you decide, you have a snowball's chance in hell of fixing it if you retain any HD parts. By doing the top end alone, you stand a half a chance. Do the Timkin and new bottom end, you have a really good chance. That's if the cases hold up! But I wouldn't bore them any bigger, that's for damn sure! ::)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Unbalanced on November 24, 2007, 03:44:58 PM
Another consideration is to not mess with your engine get it repaired for the leaks, pull it out and put a Jim's motor in since they have a complete motor that will work then have Tman or whoever do your heads/cam and be on your way not worrying about leaks, or bottom end.   Just another cog to throw at this.

Anyone know if Jim's will sell cases only?
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: SBB on November 24, 2007, 03:58:44 PM


Quote
First off, nobody makes engines or cases for these bikes!

WRONG

A Jim's 120 or a Jim's 131 will bolt right in.

http://www.jimsusa.com/engines.html

Unless Jim's is fabricating a "mistruth" to us their site says they will work.

My 120 has been trouble free but what do I know!

Don't answer that Harry!

 ;)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Unbalanced on November 24, 2007, 04:04:36 PM

WRONG

A Jim's 120 or a Jim's 131 will bolt right in.

http://www.jimsusa.com/engines.html

Unless Jim's is fabricating a "mistruth" to us their site says they will work.

My 120 has been trouble free but what do I know!

Don't answer that Harry!

 ;)

Damn cut off at the pass.     :huepfenlol2:

But I do think I mentioned this information above, unless of course your right and Jim's is misleading us.   Boy a 120, or a 131 sound pretty interesting.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on November 24, 2007, 04:15:46 PM
Jim's Engines for these bikes are only available thru HD dealers. 8)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: SBB on November 24, 2007, 04:21:14 PM
Anyone know if Jim's will sell cases only?

No clue Harry!

But let me ask this.
This is 07 not the old days when you bought top end kits or Sidewinder kits from S&S or STD head/cylinder kits from Axtell.
Why would anyone put stock Harley 110 or and other twin cam parts in a set of Jims cases if in fact the cases could be had.
IMHO the sum of all the parts would be greater than the complete engine, it makes no sense.

That's just like building a SEEG from a Street Glide. Yes it can be done but the cost overall would be much more that if you had just purchased the SEEG. Then the resale wouldn't be there.
But as dOOd has me repeat all the time, "different strokes for different folks".

 :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on November 24, 2007, 04:26:02 PM
No clue Harry!

But let me ask this.
This is 07 not the old days when you bought top end kits or Sidewinder kits from S&S or STD head/cylinder kits from Axtell.
Why would anyone put stock Harley 110 or and other twin cam parts in a set of Jims cases if in fact the cases could be had.
IMHO the sum of all the parts would be greater than the complete engine, it makes no sense.

That's just like building a SEEG from a Street Glide. Yes it can be done but the cost overall would be much more that if you had just purchased the SEEG. Then the resale wouldn't be there.
But as dOOd has me repeat all the time, "different strokes for different folks".

 :2vrolijk_21:

What do ya think I'm doing? Like I said, it ain't rocket science! Hopefully, whose cases don't matter. Using new HD cases with a Timkin conversion, S&S forged crank, and Axtell/CR top end. And I'm expecting it to be fine now! ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: SBB on November 24, 2007, 04:33:59 PM
Jim's Engines for these bikes are only available thru HD dealers. 8)

Hoist! 8)

That's not a problem for me.
Actually got "Happy Thankgiving" cards from H-D of Charlotte, Carolina Harley Davidson and Speedway Harley Davidson. Even got a 20% off card good thru December from Cox Harley Davidson. Cox is where the SERG came from. I'm loyal to H-D of Charlotte and wouldn't hesitate buying a Jim's whatever from them.
I have a great relationship with all the local dealers.  
I must be missing something here?

 :nixweiss:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Unbalanced on November 24, 2007, 04:53:17 PM
Howie,

I think the point is you said
Quote
First off, nobody makes engines or cases for these bikes! So your choice is to build an entire engine with their cases, or just rebuild the top end
   Then you said only available from the HD Dealer when in reality it is available to BD or FNG just from a dealer based on what you said.

Chip my question about the cases was just what you said different strokes.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: GMR-PERFORMANCE on November 29, 2007, 04:18:50 PM
I suggested the gear drive due to the issues with the stock cam plate, but with the amount of crank issues as well. If your current crank has a good runout spec then run the chain drive. We have seen a handful of the cam plates with elongated holes. now that does not mean every one will do this. however from our stand point if i am aware of it, and fail to tell you , it would be my luck that yours would be one that goes south.

I was talking with Mike S from latus on the heads today. he know understand why we do it and how it can stop the leaking issue. he agress with the fix.  Many of the CVO owners are not willing to have a head on the bike that does not have the SE 110 logo. I am not a fan of the head in stock form but with work and reducing the port size with welding and then CNC work. You can get the velocity up and over come to some point the larger valve. Increase the compression and match a cam to the new compression along with the engine being a 110 and a correct cam you have a great running bike. With the head logo still on your scooter.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: skreminegul07 on November 30, 2007, 11:20:57 AM
I suggested the gear drive due to the issues with the stock cam plate, but with the amount of crank issues as well. If your current crank has a good runout spec then run the chain drive. We have seen a handful of the cam plates with elongated holes. now that does not mean every one will do this. however from our stand point if i am aware of it, and fail to tell you , it would be my luck that yours would be one that goes south.

I was talking with Mike S from latus on the heads today. he know understand why we do it and how it can stop the leaking issue. he agress with the fix.  Many of the CVO owners are not willing to have a head on the bike that does not have the SE 110 logo. I am not a fan of the head in stock form but with work and reducing the port size with welding and then CNC work. You can get the velocity up and over come to some point the larger valve. Increase the compression and match a cam to the new compression along with the engine being a 110 and a correct cam you have a great running bike. With the head logo  still on your scooter.

GMR, that was true until the logo became a screw on item.  That dimished its value. 
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: GMR-PERFORMANCE on November 30, 2007, 11:27:34 AM
True true, I was spekaing more in general terms. But overall the head is not bad if you do the work, now the ACR is a nice item. I know there are some spotty issues here and there with it failing but I like really. Nice idea and the owner does not have to push any buttons in. Come to think if it these bikes are getting like cars with all the plush features LOL. next you will have wipers on the windsheild   :D
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: happyman on December 01, 2007, 09:37:09 AM
          Can  say what compression  TMan likes with the 590 cam?   also is the cam  quiet?? also where does this 590 cam pull from..   is it  low or midrange?? 
             Thanks                        Happy
B/D

Your choices seem to be good.

My choice was Tman

Tman for the Lowrider 126/121 with 15K miles on the motor after mods.

Tman for the Frontier 140/141 with 5K miles on the motor after mods.

Tman on the SERG, a mild build and just cleaning up the rest of what's there.

If you think he doesn't like the heads on a 110 don't ask him about a Marelli system on the pre Delphi bikes. OMG!


TR was having issues with his dyno but those have been worked out.
The 590 cam is an awesome cam in conjunction with his headwork.
Big #'s don't mean squat if it doesn't live. Check other builders, Tman's parts have a great rep!

If I lived close to Dennis I would buy Tman's parts and have him assemble.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.



S
  /
    B

 :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on December 01, 2007, 12:21:48 PM
The compression would be set between 10.8:1 to 11:1. I have not heard the cam in person. However, my builders says it makes more noise than the 255. My #1 problem with this cam is it doesn't jump in until 2700 rpm or higher. It is much more a midrange cam than I wanted. TR (T-Man) recommended I try his 625. My builder has installed this cam but was not overly impressed with the results. The SE 255 delivers great at the bottom but then it drops like a rock. I am still looking for something more in the 2200 rpm to 5000 rpm range. May be too much to ask for at this time. I like the R&R 615 but it is available gear only.

Talked with Steve at GMR. He is looking into a couple of cam options for me. I am currently looking at his heads to fix the head gasket leak problems. They are also capable of generating the torque and power I want if I get the right cam. Power and torque #s made at the top end of the rpm range are great for a dyno sheet but useless to me. I want a reliable motor that delivers the power quickly in the rpm range I ride and need it in. IMO

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: happyman on December 01, 2007, 04:36:06 PM
             Black Diamond,
I understand where your comming from on the cam choice. i want a cam also that can pull down low where we ride. its a new deal now with the  6 speed gearbox and the overall gearing. The 255 cam  will do much better with headwork   and make the touring  broupp very happy  because the it will pull  quite a bit more. also raise the tq and hp  to respectable.   not familar with the  R&R 615  but i don't think  the gear drive is necessay on the new cvo bikes and you can get lots of gear noise.  granted we don't have exact cam timing all the time but how many of us will it bother??   i keep looking at dyno runs and some are so far from reality it makes me laff  anyway  i am going to keep looking to see if something comes out that i can live with  i don't want to shifting all the time or changing the ratio  so i am willing to  look.. i have a  cam  instaleed now and heads am in the process of tuning and its at least going to have 120 ft lbs and its got plent  down low. i still think there can be more regardless.
                                 Happy
           
The compression would be set between 10.8:1 to 11:1. I have not heard the cam in person. However, my builders says it makes more noise than the 255. My #1 problem with this cam is it doesn't jump in until 2700 rpm or higher. It is much more a midrange cam than I wanted. TR (T-Man) recommended I try his 625. My builder has installed this cam but was not overly impressed with the results. The SE 255 delivers great at the bottom but then it drops like a rock. I am still looking for something more in the 2200 rpm to 5000 rpm range. May be too much to ask for at this time. I like the R&R 615 but it is available gear only.

Talked with Steve at GMR. He is looking into a couple of cam options for me. I am currently looking at his heads to fix the head gasket leak problems. They are also capable of generating the torque and power I want if I get the right cam. Power and torque #s made at the top end of the rpm range are great for a dyno sheet but useless to me. I want a reliable motor that delivers the power quickly in the rpm range I ride and need it in. IMO

JW
                       
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on December 01, 2007, 04:39:17 PM
Bear in mind, you shouldn't use those cams as a bolt-on. You should pull the heads too.The stock valve springs can't handle that kind of lift. Might as well do the headwork then too! ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on December 01, 2007, 06:50:33 PM
Howie
As you (and many others) have said before.  Get a package from someone that's done em before. Do not try to do it yourself. I'm doing it as a package: heads, cam, tb, cam support plate, Timken bearings, Hoben Bros. crank, roller bearings, etc. I'm taking my time to get the info, talk with the guys that build em like Steve and Dennis, and make an informed decision.

happyman....I agree with you. I only worry I'll keep chasing the torque dragon.  I need to make a good street worth machine that is reliable then simply enjoy it. These motor builds can become an addiction.  :D

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on December 01, 2007, 07:09:06 PM
Howie
As you (and many others) have said before.  Get a package from someone that's done em before. Do not try to do it yourself. I'm doing it as a package: heads, cam, tb, cam support plate, Timken bearings, Hoben Bros. crank, roller bearings, etc. I'm taking my time to get the info, talk with the guys that build em like Steve and Dennis, and make an informed decision.

happyman....I agree with you. I only worry I'll keep chasing the torque dragon.  I need to make a good street worth machine that is reliable then simply enjoy it. These motor builds can become an addition.  :D

JW

It's nice to see others understand that the MoCo isn't doing anything about the 110 issues for us, and are building REAL motors on their own for their '07/'08's. As I sit here and watch for the last 10 months or so, how many people have brought their bikes in over and over for the same issues, and not a damn thing gets done by, or surfaces from the MoCo! Same BS each time! And brand new bikes to this day, are still doing the same damn thing. With only 1500 miles on them! It makes you sick!

But realizing nothing's gonna change, and taking the cash out of your own pockets to make it right, seems like the only solution. We're not nuts for doing this. We love our bikes and are willing to go that far to get them right. So hang tough guys! You're gonna wind up with the best '07/'08 CVO's you thought you were buying in the first place. We'll show 'em all that this ain't rocket science! FTW!!! :2vrolijk_21: ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on December 01, 2007, 07:15:50 PM
WELLLLL..................
We may not be nuts but I'm damn close to it. I just get a little irritated at myself for continuing to buy Harleys knowing they have these problems. At least I figured out the fix is not with the Moco that gave me the problem to begin with. I'm just glad to know there are folks with 110's that are not having problems....



You guys are out there........right? ???

Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: happyman on December 01, 2007, 07:57:38 PM
WELLLLL..................
We may not be nuts but I'm damn close to it. I just get a little irritated at myself for continuing to buy Harleys knowing they have these problems. At least I figured out the fix is not with the Moco that gave me the problem to begin with. I'm just glad to know there are folks with 110's that are not having problems....



You guys are out there........right? ???


                 well i had a few miles less than 7800 on my 07 and it never had any isues cep the tach and  replace the saddlebags. the motor stayed together never leaked so i was fortunate i guess. but then i don't  pound the hell out of my  stuff either but if you want to run i will   go for it too.  it rarely happens so i just blow through the gears nmow and again to keep the tops of the pistons clean. whe  we pulle dit down it was unbelievable how clean the tops of the pistons were. have had 16 new harleys in my days and hoped them all up  at least once some   4 or 5 differant builds never had them that clean on top. anyway i have 96" heads with   manual  compression reliefs the  all new guides and springs    so i know  i am good to go.As i said the thing has 120 tq pretty quick  and its over 100 at  2500 so it will roll with the traffic and its fun.  will finish up next week the i have to wait for the ice and crap to leave the roads to get it  out and play  if it gets warm enough to   think about it i have taken it out to see how the tune was at various speeds and i can tell ya its is very very quick reving.. you need to be pointed in a straight line and have a clean surface or your gonna be in trouble in a new york second.  anyway its all in fun  .. i don't have a clue how to post a  dyno run here or if ya can but perhaps i can e-mail it to one of you so maybe you can post  it. it is not  the greats build but that was not wha ti was up too. i ride two up  and have some age so i built this to have tq but yet its gonna be ok hp wise also   i figure just under 110 hp   
                                                   Happy
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on December 12, 2007, 07:41:46 PM
Well I've been talking with a lot of engine builders. It has been quite an education. I am now certain I don't no chit about motors! :o   While Tman makes outstanding stuff, I have decided not to use him as the low end torque comes on around 3000 rpm. I have decided against going to a 117/124 build. Would probably add to my problems, leaking rear head gasket at under 3700 miles. Finally, I decided there is no need for me to go to a gear drive cam with the new chain system based on all the builders I have talked to. So I am looking at two additional options:


Option 4: GMRPerformance 110 cu motor
GMR head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Stock 110 pistons
SE 251 cam
GMR clean up on stock 50mm TB or SE 58mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Adjustable Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome)

Note: Steve/GMR welds the heads up to fix the gasket leak issue. He also likes / recommends staying with the ACRs.


Option 5: Cycle Rama 110 cu motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Stock 110 pistons
CR 595 special grind cam - available in approx two weeks / kicks in around 2000 - 2200 rpm
CR head polished SE 58mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Adjustable Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome) 

Note: Wes really likes the stock heads after polish and clean up. He also likes the ACRs. They have written instructions on installation procedures that has stopped head gasket leaks to date. He recommends I leave the bottom alone unless I have a runout problem which I can address under warranty at that time.

Both Wes and Steve have been great to talk to and learn from. I do not think I can make a wrong decision here. A little more research, make the decision, and trailer the scoot to Gutterridge to get her done. :)

Oh ya, and paint up the hard bags and mount em. ;)

JW

Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: skyhook on December 12, 2007, 07:53:45 PM
did gmr recommend the se251 cams?
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on December 12, 2007, 07:54:53 PM
Well I've been talking with a lot of engine builders. It has been quite an education. I am now certain I don't no chit about motors! :o   While Tman makes outstanding stuff, I have decided not to use him as the low end torque comes on around 3000 rpm. I have decided against going to a 117/124 build. Would probably add to my problems, leaking rear head gasket at under 3700 miles. Finally, I decided there is no need for me to go to a gear drive cam with the new chain system based on all the builders I have talked to. So I am looking at two additional options:


Option 4: GMRPerformance 110 cu motor
GMR head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Stock 110 pistons
SE 251 cam
GMR clean up on stock 50mm TB or SE 58mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Adjustable Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome)

Note: Steve/GMR welds the heads up to fix the gasket leak issue. He also likes / recommends staying with the ACRs.


Option 5: Cycle Rama 110 cu motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Stock 110 pistons
CR 595 special grind cam - available in approx two weeks / kicks in around 2000 - 2200 rpm
CR head polished SE 58mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Adjustable Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome) 

Note: Wes really likes the stock heads after polish and clean up. He also likes the ACRs. They have written instructions on installation procedures that has stopped head gasket leaks to date. He recommends I leave the bottom alone unless I have a runout problem which I can address under warranty at that time.

Both Wes and Steve have been great to talk to and learn from. I do not think I can make a wrong decision here. A little more research, make the decision, and trailer the scoot to Gutterridge to get her done. :)

Oh ya, and paint up the hard bags and mount em. ;)

JW



What compression ratio comes with options 4 and 5?
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: SBB on December 12, 2007, 08:01:44 PM
Well I've been talking with a lot of engine builders. It has been quite an education. I am now certain I don't no chit about motors! :o   While Tman makes outstanding stuff, I have decided not to use him as the low end torque comes on around 3000 rpm.

BD

You have chosen some very quality people to listen to and gain knowledge from. Any of the ones on your list know how to make horsepower. Your comment about Tmans low end torque not coming on till 3000 is not indicative of the motor parts he has supplied to me. My 120 makes 120 ft. lbs. of torque at 2000 rpm, 130 at 2500 and 140 at 3000.
That my friend is bottom end torque. Even Nancy's bike that's 95" produces over a 100 lbs. at 2500. Maybe the combo you selected didn't produce the bottom end you wanted but a general statement that his stuff doesn't produce low end torque is IMHO not accurate. We each have the opportunity to select who supplies and builds our rides and for yours I wish you luck with whoever you decide on.

SBB
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on December 12, 2007, 09:18:03 PM
skyhook

Yes  Steve and I talked at lenght about possible cams. He recommended the 257 or 251 with the nod to the 251 for my riding style.


sadunbar
Option 4 GMR build 10:3 - 1
Option 5 Cycle Rama  9:5 to 10 - 1   Wes needs to work it out once new grind is complete. He will get back to me on it. Also thanks again for your help.


Silver-Black
These are the numbers supplied by TR on the package he helped set up. He told me he does not like the 110 heads on a 110. He thinks they work great on 120s and bigger. He could do better with other heads but not with the current ones. I am trying to keep the stock appearance. He was great to talk with and the man knows his stuff. In now way am I saying anything about TR or his products. He was very straight with me. If I build up my 95, he is on the list of those to call. I was not trying to make a general statement about Tman's stuff not making good low end torque. Sorry if it came across like that. I have seen Tman packages built at Gutterridge HD that are torque monsters.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on December 12, 2007, 09:30:03 PM
Well I've been talking with a lot of engine builders. It has been quite an education. I am now certain I don't no chit about motors! :o   While Tman makes outstanding stuff, I have decided not to use him as the low end torque comes on around 3000 rpm. I have decided against going to a 117/124 build. Would probably add to my problems, leaking rear head gasket at under 3700 miles. Finally, I decided there is no need for me to go to a gear drive cam with the new chain system based on all the builders I have talked to. So I am looking at two additional options:


Option 5: Cycle Rama 110 cu motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Stock 110 pistons
CR 595 special grind cam - available in approx two weeks / kicks in around 2000 - 2200 rpm
CR head polished SE 58mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Adjustable Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome) 

Note: Wes really likes the stock heads after polish and clean up. He also likes the ACRs. They have written instructions on installation procedures that has stopped head gasket leaks to date. He recommends I leave the bottom alone unless I have a runout problem which I can address under warranty at that time.

Both Wes and Steve have been great to talk to and learn from. I do not think I can make a wrong decision here. A little more research, make the decision, and trailer the scoot to Gutterridge to get her done. :)

Oh ya, and paint up the hard bags and mount em. ;)

JW



BD, I have a similar CR package to the one you're considering. It's a very rideable setup, with good power from 2000. But that cam really kicks in good at over 3000 RPM. With 100 ft-lbs at 2000, you won't care where the cam kicks in. So don't let the cam profile scare you. Look at overall projected numbers/curve. ;)

I'd stay away from the SE Cyl Studs. These are not shouldered studs. Someone could destroy your cases misinstalling them. Feuling makes High Tensile Shouldered Studs with ARP Polished Headbolts.

Also, if you're staying with the chain drive cams, I'd consider using the new SE camplate or the R&R camplate.

You'll need to run a good free flowing intak and exhaust with this setup too.

Overall, I think you'll be very happy with the CR package. Can't speak about the others, as I've never used them. But my 110" CR package ran great. It should run even better when I'm done with it this time around. Good luck! :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: SBB on December 12, 2007, 09:32:27 PM



Silver-Black
These are the numbers supplied by TR on the package he helped set up. He told me he does not like the 110 heads on a 110. He thinks they work great on 120s and bigger. He could do better with other heads but not with the current ones. I am trying to keep the stock appearance. He was great to talk with and the man knows his stuff. In now way am I saying anything about TR or his products. He was very straight with me. If I build up my 95, he is on the list of those to call. I was not trying to make a general statement about Tman's stuff not making good low end torque. Sorry if it came across like that. I have seen Tman packages built at Gutterridge HD that are torque monsters.

JW

Good luck on your build!
But hurry up.
I get bored real easy and I think every man (and my wife) should have more horsepower!

 :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: happyman on December 12, 2007, 09:42:14 PM
Blackdiamond,
Are you saying wes has a way to cure the blown head gasket issue on some  110"??     i never have had a problem but  there are a bunch of  owners out there that would be happy to see that too.         i have to think the cometic  hg  would be a good step in the right direction. or ya coud do a set of heads  and install the  manual  compression releases. and then use then too. i tend to think its a matter of  too much heat  and bad gaskets so if you get rid of the heat  and try a differant gasket  you may be ok.  one thing i am no expert , so someone else will have to  come up with a solution for  the issue.       

                                   Happy

Well I've been talking with a lot of engine builders. It has been quite an education. I am now certain I don't no chit about motors! :o   While Tman makes outstanding stuff, I have decided not to use him as the low end torque comes on around 3000 rpm. I have decided against going to a 117/124 build. Would probably add to my problems, leaking rear head gasket at under 3700 miles. Finally, I decided there is no need for me to go to a gear drive cam with the new chain system based on all the builders I have talked to. So I am looking at two additional options:


Option 4: GMRPerformance 110 cu motor
GMR head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Stock 110 pistons
SE 251 cam
GMR clean up on stock 50mm TB or SE 58mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Adjustable Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome)

Note: Steve/GMR welds the heads up to fix the gasket leak issue. He also likes / recommends staying with the ACRs.


Option 5: Cycle Rama 110 cu motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Stock 110 pistons
CR 595 special grind cam - available in approx two weeks / kicks in around 2000 - 2200 rpm
CR head polished SE 58mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Adjustable Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome) 

Note: Wes really likes the stock heads after polish and clean up. He also likes the ACRs. They have written instructions on installation procedures that has stopped head gasket leaks to date. He recommends I leave the bottom alone unless I have a runout problem which I can address under warranty at that time.

Both Wes and Steve have been great to talk to and learn from. I do not think I can make a wrong decision here. A little more research, make the decision, and trailer the scoot to Gutterridge to get her done. :)

Oh ya, and paint up the hard bags and mount em. ;)

JW


Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on December 12, 2007, 09:50:04 PM
Howie

Some of the build components are listed in the first post. The SE cam plate is going to be used with the stock oil pump. Thanks for the heads up on the cylinder studs. I've talked with Harry and Scott about their CR build also. Your posted torque curve is really sweet. Wes really likes the Rinehart True Duals which I already have. We talked about the proper way to tune for them. Thanks for the info when I called you. Good luck with Cybil for 08.


S/B  
I hear ya.  I wish it was done and the ice was melted. :(


Happy
Wes said he will be supplying written instructions to my HD guys on the build. Apparently he has developed a way to do the install that eliminates the head gasket leak problem. He said they have not had a leak yet. When I get details, I'll post more. Wes likes the ACRs. He recommends I leave them in. So did Steve (GMR) so they stay. Both said their build will make the bike run significantly cooler which helps eliminate the problem.  Mine sprung a rear head gasket leak at 3673 miles.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: happyman on December 12, 2007, 09:53:24 PM
            silverblack,
so your making a lot of hp and tq way down low?    you ahve a  jims 120?  and what is the cam your running  and headwork??
Thanks                                  Happy

Good luck on your build!
But hurry up.
I get bored real easy and I think every man (and my wife) should have more horsepower!

 :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on December 24, 2007, 03:30:24 PM
Latest:
I took my scooter in Saturday for the build to start. I decided on the Wes Brown Cycle Rama package based on the new grind for the CR 595. If all goes as hoped, she'll hit the butt dyno very early on.

CR 110 ci motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Performance gasket kit
Stock 110 pistons w/sets custom rings , with napier 2nd rings
CR 595 special grind cam - kicks in with 100 ft tq at around 2000 rpm
SE Cam Support Plate
Torrington cam bearings
Check Crank runout - if problem split the cases, Hobin Bros trued and balanced / Timken bearings
CR cleaned / polished SE 58mm throttle body w/ Pro A/C Breather kit
SE Roller Rockers
CR Performance lifters
SE Adjustable chromoly pushrods p/n 17900-87
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch AIM springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers

I may diamond cut heads and cylinders. Awaiting outcome of tear down to see if the weeping on the rear jug is just a rear gasket problem or a cylinder problem.

JW

Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on December 24, 2007, 03:43:33 PM
Latest:
I took my scooter in Saturday for the build to start. I decided on the Wes Brown Cycle Rama package based on the new grind for the CR 595. If all goes as hoped, she'll hit the butt dyno very early on.

CR 110 ci motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Performance gasket kit
Stock 110 pistons w/sets custom rings , with napier 2nd rings
CR 595 special grind cam - kicks in with 100 ft tq at around 2000 rpm
SE Cam Support Plate
Torrington cam bearings
Check Crank runout - if problem split the cases, Hobin Bros trued and balanced / Timken bearings
CR cleaned / polished SE 58mm throttle body w/ Pro A/C Breather kit
SE Roller Rockers
CR Performance lifters
SE Adjustable chromoly pushrods p/n 17900-87
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch AIM springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers

I may diamond cut heads and cylinders. Awaiting outcome of tear down to see if the weeping on the rear jug is just a rear gasket problem or a cylinder problem.

JW



Who is doing your build and tune?
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on December 24, 2007, 05:27:01 PM
Scott

Gutterridge Harley in Danville, Ill. They have a number of Tman builds under their belts with excellent results. This will be new ground for them. They are pretty good on a tune with Rinehart TD which I'm running.

Thanks for your info earlier in this build.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: happyman on December 24, 2007, 05:33:54 PM
                   Blackdiamond.
So do you have some specs on the cr cam..   it must have a early valve close.your making 100 ft lbs at 2000 thats a pretty fair for the bagger crowd.What kind of compression is this build going to have? and what  are you looking for on hp and tq. what is the  headwork made up of.. not familar with the rings. the 58 throttle body  is something that suprises me.    just curious here and am always looking at differant things on these  110" motors . i take it your staying with the chain drive cams too?     anyway  sounds like your  going to be looking forward to a fun summer..
                                                  Happy

Latest:
I took my scooter in Saturday for the build to start. I decided on the Wes Brown Cycle Rama package based on the new grind for the CR 595. If all goes as hoped, she'll hit the butt dyno very early on.

CR 110 ci motor
Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
Performance gasket kit
Stock 110 pistons w/sets custom rings , with napier 2nd rings
CR 595 special grind cam - kicks in with 100 ft tq at around 2000 rpm
SE Cam Support Plate
Torrington cam bearings
Check Crank runout - if problem split the cases, Hobin Bros trued and balanced / Timken bearings
CR cleaned / polished SE 58mm throttle body w/ Pro A/C Breather kit
SE Roller Rockers
CR Performance lifters
SE Adjustable chromoly pushrods p/n 17900-87
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch AIM springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers

I may diamond cut heads and cylinders. Awaiting outcome of tear down to see if the weeping on the rear jug is just a rear gasket problem or a cylinder problem.

JW


Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on December 24, 2007, 05:46:45 PM
Merry Christmas Happy

The current Cam spec's are
Intake opens @ 20     closes @ 42             .595 lift       242 duration        101 Lobe Center
Exhaust opens @ 50   closes @ 12             .595 lift      242 duration         109 Lobe Center
32 degree over lap    105 LSA

Wes is refining the grind slightly to have the torque come on earlier. When I get the new numbers I'll pass them along.

Compression 9.5 / 10 to 1

Heads - Port & polish, Multi angle valve job on intakes, radius angle valve job on exhaust. Set valve to valve & seal to retainer clearance, set installed valve spring height, CC chambers, Mill heads. Flow test & Velocity probe ports

The 58mm throttle body is the only upgrade currently available for the new 08 electronic throttle control system.

Can't help you on the rings. I just ride em but I'm trying to learn.

Hope this helps

JW

Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on December 24, 2007, 07:39:40 PM
I hope you're comfortable with HD doing this work BD. I originally had a similar CR package installed by a HD dealer and the whole thing turned to chit. Bike ran awesome, but didn't hold up due to bad installation. Clearance pistons??? I was screwed! They don't have all the necessary tools to build this motor. They think you can just bolt off the shelf parts on to make it work. Be careful using a dealer BD. My new CR pacakage is going up another level now. But there's no way in hell a dealer's ever touching my bike again! ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: 110tHunDer on December 24, 2007, 07:59:35 PM
Scott

Gutterridge Harley in Danville, Ill. They have a number of Tman builds under their belts with excellent results. This will be new ground for them. They are pretty good on a tune with Rinehart TD which I'm running.

Thanks for your info earlier in this build.

JW

Hey, JW, next time you're passing through and have a few minutes, give me a shout.  I live in Mahomet, so you're passing right by here to go to Danville.  I'd even meet you over there if you make a run to check on your bike!

Gutteridge may have experience with other builds, but sounds like pumping up the 110 is new to them?  Are they aware of the issues with the cylinders?  Or are they one of the dealers who hasn't seen any problems with these motors.

Just be careful and thorough, man.  You don't want to end up throwing good money after bad. :nervous:

Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on December 24, 2007, 10:40:44 PM
I hope you're comfortable with HD doing this work BD. I originally had a similar CR package installed by a HD dealer and the whole thing turned to chit. Bike ran awesome, but didn't hold up due to bad installation. Clearance pistons??? I was screwed! They don't have all the necessary tools to build this motor. They think you can just bolt off the shelf parts on to make it work. Be careful using a dealer BD. My new CR pacakage is going up another level now. But there's no way in hell a dealer's ever touching my bike again! ;)

Hoist! 8)

Howie,

  I installed my pistons yesterday - and did not have to clearance them.  They got em right... :2vrolijk_21: 

Scott
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on December 24, 2007, 11:29:29 PM
103tHunDer

I'll hit you up on one of my trips. It will be great to meet you.

Roger and Kevin (Gutterridge HD) know about some of the 110 problems. They have done a couple of 110's with Tman stuff. Their customers are very happy with them but the guys think there is more to be had. I am very comfortable with them doing this build. They have done nothing but treat me right. What they say they can do they deliver.

They are the guys that brought up the cam support plate as well as checking the crank runout. There about 50/50 on welding up the crank and doing Timken bearing now verse later. Wes cast the deciding vote. They tell it like it is with no BS. Wes is comfortable they can handle the job.

They received a Tman package for a build only to discover both pistons were for the front cylinder. The contacted TR who immediately check his remaining 7 out of 10 packages. All were delivered that way. Only Gutterridge HD identified the problem and had it corrected. TR told Gutterridge the remaining two packages were installed as delivered to other shops. They did not notice the difference.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 05, 2008, 08:43:15 AM
Looks like I'll be getting a new rear cylinder. The sleeve/liner moved causing the gasket leak.  The service a number of 110 cii motors. Lucky me, I'm the only one experiencing problems.

My guys are recommending I consider going with Axtell jugs to eliminate the problem in the future.

Why can't a Harley use Harley parts?

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on January 05, 2008, 09:21:18 AM
Looks like I'll be getting a new rear cylinder. The sleeve/liner moved causing the gasket leak.  The service a number of 110 cii motors. Lucky me, I'm the only one experiencing problems.

My guys are recommending I consider going with Axtell jugs to eliminate the problem in the future.

Why can't a Harley use Harley parts?

JW

Because they're designed by accountants, not engineers I guess! :o Sure seems that way anyhow! ::) ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: FNGw/08SERK on January 05, 2008, 01:00:47 PM
Looks like I'll be getting a new rear cylinder. The sleeve/liner moved causing the gasket leak.  The service a number of 110 cii motors. Lucky me, I'm the only one experiencing problems.

My guys are recommending I consider going with Axtell jugs to eliminate the problem in the future.

Why can't a Harley use Harley parts?

JW
How many miles when your leak began? Thanks
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 05, 2008, 09:44:27 PM
FNGw/08SERK

Only had 3673 miles on her. Talked with my builder at lenght. They have several 110's on road with over 20000 miles with no problems. These guys have been very honest with me. They brought up the crank issue to me first. They have had three cranks go out on 96 ci motors lately. They have also told me the MoCo does know about the crank problem however have no current plans to fix the crank issue they have heard of.

Howie
You may be right. I just don't get how they can't get the 110 ci cylinders right. They are not having this problem with any of their other cylinders including 113 builds. More talking with Wes when he gets back.

JW

Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on January 05, 2008, 09:46:58 PM
Because they're designed by accountants, not engineers I guess! :o Sure seems that way anyhow! ::) ;)

Hoist! 8)

I tend to believe there is more truth to that statement then we care to know... :sauer055:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 05, 2008, 09:56:43 PM
I hear ya Scott!  >:(
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: FNGw/08SERK on January 05, 2008, 10:13:00 PM
FNGw/08SERK

Only had 3673 miles on her. Talked with my builder at lenght. They have several 110's on road with over 20000 miles with no problems. These guys have been very honest with me. They brought up the crank issue to me first. They have had three cranks go out on 96 ci motors lately. They have also told me the MoCo does know about the crank problem however have no current plans to fix the crank issue they have heard of.

Howie
You may be right. I just don't get how they can't get the 110 ci cylinders right. They are not having this problem with any of their other cylinders including 113 builds. More talking with Wes when he gets back.

JW


I guess I need to watch this closely, I've got about 2800 on my clock  :nervous:  :nervous:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 05, 2008, 10:24:03 PM
FNGw/08SERK

Wishing you go luck. I would really like to know how many 110 ci owners there are and what percent are having these problems. At my dealer, there are approx 14 - 7 110's on the road / CVO's and builds they have done. I'm the only one with the problems so far. The 110 build they did on the 07 Street Glide I traded for my SERK is still flying high with no problems. I had over 5000 miles on her before the trade. There must be a common thread on why some cylinders fail and other (the majority?) do not. You would think the MoCo could trace the problems, identify this common denominator and fix the damn problem.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: FNGw/08SERK on January 05, 2008, 10:35:16 PM
FNGw/08SERK

Wishing you go luck. I would really like to know how many 110 ci owners there are and what percent are having these problems. At my dealer, there are approx 14 - 7 110's on the road / CVO's and builds they have done. I'm the only one with the problems so far. The 110 build they did on the 07 Street Glide I traded for my SERK is still flying high with no problems. I had over 5000 miles on her before the trade. There must be a common thread on why some cylinders fail and other (the majority?) do not. You would think the MoCo could trace the problems, identify this common denominator and fix the damn problem.

JW
Admittedly, I haven't watched this as close as i should (denial I guess) but it seems that the sleeves come up pretty consistently as a possible problem. I guess time will cure all. Hope this works out for ya in the long run JW!!  :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 08, 2008, 04:17:51 PM
Well I'm splitting the bottom for the crank work and Timken bearing. If the service rep states the MoCo knows about the problem but is taking no action, I must do something to protect myself. My top end options appear to be:

1. Replace Harley part with Harley part as this is an rare problem and the MoCo is/will isolate it and make the fix.

2. Replace the cylinder with Axtel 110 cylinder and find paint to match the Granite motor. Cost around $800.

3. Go the whole 9 yards and bore it out the bottom end for a 117 build with Axtel cylinders and pistons. Cost $1300

Wes (Cycle Rama) recommends staying with the Harley cylinder or going bigger with the Axtels. The guys at the shop think now is the time to make it bigger as I'm already paying for the labor. I'm leaning to staying a 110 ci with the Harley part if I can feel comfortable the issue will not reoccur.

Making a cylinder is not rocket science. They have been making em for 105 years. In talking with a lot of builders, I do not believe it is a junk part because it's a Harley part. Like all manufactures, they all make somethings well and other stuff can be questionable. Example the new cam plate is a very good product.

JW



Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on January 08, 2008, 04:45:44 PM
Well I'm splitting the bottom for the crank work and Timken bearing. If the service rep states the MoCo knows about the problem but is taking no action, I must do something to protect myself. My top end options appear to be:

1. Replace Harley part with Harley part as this is an rare problem and the MoCo is/will isolate it and make the fix.

2. Replace the cylinder with Axtel 110 cylinder and find paint to match the Granite motor. Cost around $800.

3. Go the whole 9 yards and bore it out the bottom end for a 117 build with Axtel cylinders and pistons. Cost $1300

Wes (Cycle Rama) recommends staying with the Harley cylinder or going bigger with the Axtels. The guys at the shop think now is the time to make it bigger as I'm already paying for the labor. I'm leaning to staying a 110 ci with the Harley part if I can feel comfortable the issue will not reoccur.

Making a cylinder is not rocket science. They have been making em for 105 years. In talking with a lot of builders, I do not believe it is a junk part because it's a Harley part. Like all manufactures, they all make somethings well and other stuff can be questionable. Example the new cam plate is a very good product.

JW


My thoughts are if you want to do no more then fix it and be done with it, then replace the all parts that you think are even remotely involved.  Cylinders certainly make that list.  Also gaskets... No MOCO gaskets...Only Cometic gaskets and Cometic torquing procedures.  Head and Cam work to get the heat out of the heads...the rest becomes optional based on added performance desires...

Scott
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on January 08, 2008, 05:41:38 PM
Well I'm splitting the bottom for the crank work and Timken bearing. If the service rep states the MoCo knows about the problem but is taking no action, I must do something to protect myself. My top end options appear to be:

1. Replace Harley part with Harley part as this is an rare problem and the MoCo is/will isolate it and make the fix.

2. Replace the cylinder with Axtel 110 cylinder and find paint to match the Granite motor. Cost around $800.

3. Go the whole 9 yards and bore it out the bottom end for a 117 build with Axtel cylinders and pistons. Cost $1300

Wes (Cycle Rama) recommends staying with the Harley cylinder or going bigger with the Axtels. The guys at the shop think now is the time to make it bigger as I'm already paying for the labor. I'm leaning to staying a 110 ci with the Harley part if I can feel comfortable the issue will not reoccur.

Making a cylinder is not rocket science. They have been making em for 105 years. In talking with a lot of builders, I do not believe it is a junk part because it's a Harley part. Like all manufactures, they all make somethings well and other stuff can be questionable. Example the new cam plate is a very good product.

JW





You're going thru all this time and expense to get this right. Why take chances. IMO, I'd go with the strongest chit you can find when putting it back together. Whether you stay 110 or go bigger, go with the Axtell barrels! ;)

What are you doing about a crank? If you're doing the Timkin bearing conversion, take a good look at the S&S crank. It's night and day difference in quality to the HD crank! Something to consider.

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 09, 2008, 06:14:17 PM
I made the decision today to go with the Axtel cylinders with the JE pistons. In talking /Chaz @ Axtel, I ordered the parts I need as Wes will be doing the rings and gaskets. Got the paint number for the 08 Granite motors so they'll match up nice. Probably will diamond cut heads and cylinders since I'm not worried I'll have any more problems.

Darkhorse has my crank at this time. (Can I say that  ::) After they do their magic I hope to never have an issue with it. Run out will be measured on both sides of the crank to make certain we get it right.

Be looking to sell some take off parts soon to help off set the cost of aftermarket cylinders.

And the build continues.....

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on January 09, 2008, 06:51:50 PM
I made the decision today to go with the Axtel cylinders with the JE pistons. In talking /Chaz @ Axtel, I ordered the parts I need as Wes will be doing the rings and gaskets. Got the paint number for the 08 Granite motors so they'll match up nice. Probably will diamond cut heads and cylinders since I'm not worried I'll have any more problems.

Darkhorse has my crank at this time. (Can I say that  ::) After they do their magic I hope to never have an issue with it. Run out will be measured on both sides of the crank to make certain we get it right.

Be looking to sell some take off parts soon to help off set the cost of aftermarket cylinders.

And the build continues.....

JW

Far out man! You're moving along nicely. I wish you much success with your PROPERLY built 110 engine! And I'm hoping for the same! :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist!
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on January 09, 2008, 07:00:20 PM
I made the decision today to go with the Axtel cylinders with the JE pistons. In talking /Chaz @ Axtel, I ordered the parts I need as Wes will be doing the rings and gaskets. Got the paint number for the 08 Granite motors so they'll match up nice. Probably will diamond cut heads and cylinders since I'm not worried I'll have any more problems.

Darkhorse has my crank at this time. (Can I say that  ::) After they do their magic I hope to never have an issue with it. Run out will be measured on both sides of the crank to make certain we get it right.

Be looking to sell some take off parts soon to help off set the cost of aftermarket cylinders.

And the build continues.....

JW

JW,

Glad to see you are changing to Axtell cylinders!  Even if it is only a precaution - it is peace of mind...  What size motor are you building?  Still a 110? 

I had pretty good luck selling my take off 110 parts on Ebay.  Sold virtually everything.  Came out of it with well over 1K...

good luck   :2vrolijk_21:

Scott
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sblade1948 on January 09, 2008, 07:56:17 PM
Did you put a reserve or just let them go ?
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 09, 2008, 08:03:54 PM
Scott and Howie,

I would like to thank both of you for your advice and sharing your experiences. You too, Harry!

I have decided to make her a 117 ci.! Talked with Wes about boring out the spigots for the 117 ci. He thinks it will be more reliable as we can make sure to square the cases and base of the cylinders for a tight, flush fit. I'm still going to make it a mild build with a moderate compression rate but with more low end torque. Foremost, the motor will be as reliable as I can make it.

I may have to become Black Diamond 117

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on January 09, 2008, 08:05:02 PM
Did you put a reserve or just let them go ?

I put a reserve on the parts I thought carried greater value.  The other parts sold with no reserve.  I hate accumulating parts that I know I'll never use again - I am no pack rat!  Had those parts not sold, I would have given them away or tossed them.  I was suprised it all sold...

Scott
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 09, 2008, 08:06:13 PM
sblade1948

I'm still doing the build. I haven't got anything back to sell yet.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on January 09, 2008, 08:07:09 PM
Scott and Howie,

I would like to thank both of you for your advice and sharing your experiences. You too, Harry!

I have decided to make her a 117 ci.! Talked with Wes about boring out the spigots for the 117 ci. He thinks it will be more reliable as we can make sure to square the cases and base of the cylinders for a tight, flush fit. I'm still going to make it a mild build with a moderate compression rate but with more low end torque. Foremost, the motor will be as reliable as I can make it.

I may have to become Black Diamond 117

JW



:2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 16, 2008, 11:02:12 PM
The latest snag in the build.

Since I have decided to go with the Axtell cylinders, I am trying to find someone that can powder coat in the 08 granite color to match the heads and lower. I can get the paint but I'm looking for the powder coat for durability. The plan is to get the raw cylinder from Axtell, powder coat, then back to Axtell to finish the bore and hone em. If not then may do the same process but with paint.

The crank is done and waiting to be shipped back from Darkhorse Crankworks- trued and balanced with Pro plugs installed. Their doing the Timken bearings too.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: skreminegul07 on January 17, 2008, 01:31:59 PM
The latest snag in the build.

Since I have decided to go with the Axtell cylinders, I am trying to find someone that can powder coat in the 08 granite color to match the heads and lower. I can get the paint but I'm looking for the powder coat for durability. The plan is to get the raw cylinder from Axtell, powder coat, then back to Axtell to finish the bore and hone em. If not then may do the same process but with paint.

The crank is done and waiting to be shipped back from Darkhorse Crankworks- trued and balanced with Pro plugs installed. Their doing the Timken bearings too.

JW

Did you see the thread from Twolane in the Good /bad vendor section regarding Powder coating by Sumax, Axtell jugs and Diamondhead cutting.  Read that thoroughly and see the other picts regarding Axtell's FINISH work done after powder oating.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 17, 2008, 02:36:33 PM
skreminegul07

Thanks for tip. Time for another call to Axtell. Thanks again!

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on January 27, 2008, 07:45:51 PM
JW,

  Have you decided on all the details of your build now?  What are you doing for heads and cams?

Scott
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 27, 2008, 09:21:54 PM
Hey Scott

Heres Option 6 / the final option: Cycle Rama 117 ci motor
-Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
-JE flat top 117 ci pistons with custom rings installed by Wes
-Axtell 117 ci cylinders, powder coat to match granite motor
-CR 595 cam & Torrington bearings
-SE Cam Support Plate
-CR polished & modified SE 58mm TB
-SE Roller Rockers
-Darkhorse Crankworks Pro Plugs on crank, true and balance
-Timken bearing
-Rivera Taperlite Pushrod
-SE Rocker Arm Support
-SE Cylinder Studs
-Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
-Upgrade clutch AIM VP92T
-Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers
-Flush mount gas and fuel cap 

Wes and I talked at length on the cam after I decided to go bigger. Based on my riding style, we stayed with the 595. Thermal coating heads (chamber, ports and valves) as well as pistons (top, skirt and underneath) to reduce heat. After milling the heads, the compression will be 10.0 to 1. Wes is going to work with the SE throttle body to make it as efficient as possible as it's all that available at this point with the new electronic throttle control.

Got unfinished cylinders from Axtell on Friday. There at the powder coater now. Then back to Axtell for finishing. I have told them I know of some problems they have had in the past with machining. Thanks for the heads up from CVO members.  :) I will get photos before they go to Wes. Wes will do a finish hone when he's mocking it up. Figure I might as well diamond cut em too.

Crank and Timken is complete. We're measuring pinion and spline side of crank to insure no problems.

Hooking up with painter for final design on hard bags.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of details but that's a quick catch up. Hope to be done in 6 weeks or so.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on January 27, 2008, 09:28:38 PM
Hey Scott

Heres Option 6 / the final option: Cycle Rama 117 ci motor
-Cycle Rama (CR) head work on 110 SE Heads w/ACR's
-JE flat top 117 ci pistons with custom rings installed by Wes
-Axtell 117 ci cylinders, powder coat to match granite motor
-CR 595 cam & Torrington bearings
-SE Cam Support Plate
-CR polished & modified SE 58mm TB
-SE Roller Rockers
-Darkhorse Crankworks Pro Plugs on crank, true and balance
-Timken bearing
-Rivera Taperlite Pushrod
-SE Rocker Arm Support
-SE Cylinder Studs
-Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
-Upgrade clutch AIM VP94T
-Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers
-Flush mount gas and fuel cap 

Wes and I talked at length on the cam after I decided to go bigger. Based on my riding style, we stayed with the 595. Thermal coating heads (chamber, ports and valves) as well as pistons (top, skirt and underneath) to reduce heat. After milling the heads, the compression will be 10.0 to 1. Wes is going to work with the SE throttle body to make it as efficient as possible as it's all that available at this point with the new electronic throttle control.

Got unfinished cylinders from Axtell on Friday. There at the powder coater now. Then back to Axtell for finishing. I have told them I know of some problems they have had in the past with machining. Thanks for the heads up from CVO members.  :) I will get photos before they go to Wes. Wes will do a finish hone when he's mocking it up. Figure I might as well diamond cut em too.

Crank and Timken is complete. We're measuring pinion and spline side of crank to insure no problems.

Hooking up with painter for final design on hard bags.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of details but that's a quick catch up. Hope to be done in 6 weeks or so.

JW


JW,

Sounds like a great combination of pieces!  You have made some great choices.  Who is doing the final assembly, Wes or your dealer?  You will have to do an update every few weeks or so as you progress with the build!  good luck!

Scott
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 27, 2008, 09:38:12 PM
The guys at Gutterridge HD are putting her together. I know a lot of guys don't trust HD techs. I have complete confidence in these guys. They really thought the Axtell's were the way to go. Brought up the SE cam plate as a good option. They have just treated me right. And they will warranty all of it. Wes is good with em. Thinks they are good for the job. As Howie likes to say It ain't rocket science.

I'll keep ya informed...thanks for asking.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Talon on January 28, 2008, 09:59:55 AM
JW,

Sounds like a great combination of pieces!  You have made some great choices.  Who is doing the final assembly, Wes or your dealer?  You will have to do an update every few weeks or so as you progress with the build!  good luck!

Scott

Hey Scott, have you been able to get you bike out yet? Wondering how you like you new build.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on January 28, 2008, 11:46:15 AM
Hey Scott, have you been able to get you bike out yet? Wondering how you like you new build.

Talon,

Nope - and I won't anytime soon.  Winter riding is out of the question around here.  Weather is almost always below freezing for a couple of months yet, and the roads are covered with salt and sand.  It will be two or three months before I will get any kind of riding in...

Scott
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Talon on January 28, 2008, 11:51:36 AM
Talon,

Nope - and I won't anytime soon.  Winter riding is out of the question around here.  Weather is almost always below freezing for a couple of months yet, and the roads are covered with salt and sand.  It will be two or three months before I will get any kind of riding in...

Scott

Yea, that's what I thought. It's been in the 50's over the weekend, I was sick, but went out Sunday anyway, lost of bikes out, we haven't had that much good weather this winter.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Trapperdog on January 29, 2008, 01:13:50 PM
Black Diamond, are you going to leave those fork reflectors on to help keep the front end down?  ;D Can't wait to hear how she turns out!
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on January 29, 2008, 01:36:30 PM
trapperdog
That's an older pic. Somehow those little reflectors fell off. ;D

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 27, 2008, 01:00:35 PM
Finally got some news to share. The cylinders have been powder coated. xtell has done the finish cuts. The cylinders and JE pistons are on the way to Wes.

The heads, cam, lifters and rings are done and waiting at Wes shop. A mock up will be done and the whole top end package shipped north to my builder. Hoping to have her done in several weeks. Now if the snow would go away.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 27, 2008, 01:01:38 PM
Other side
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 27, 2008, 01:03:14 PM
On my way to Gutterridge HD to check out the bottom end. May have more pics later if I quit getting called in for work.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:16:55 PM
Back from the builder with some more pics.  I'd like to thank Gary (Fired00d) for making the pictures work on the site.

Here's the lower cases after the spigots were opened up for the 4.125" (117) cylinders
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:17:45 PM
Another
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:18:39 PM
one more
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:22:42 PM
I had the crank sent to Darkhorse Crankworks / Hoban Bros. They also did the Timken bearing conversion.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:23:20 PM
again
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:24:55 PM
Putting her bottom together
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:25:25 PM
2
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:26:08 PM
3
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:26:55 PM
4 Buttoning her up
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:30:23 PM
Back into the scooter hooking her up to the tranny
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:32:11 PM
Cam chest clearanced  Torrington bearing installed
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:34:21 PM
trapperdog

Got my scooters confused as those pesky little reflectors are still on there......I am losing it as I get older.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 04:37:08 PM
Last one.  The blue denim saddlebag in the background will be one of em I'm having done up for my scoot. I'm getting excited. So far all is coming together ok. I am not in a hurry as I still have snow to contend with but......

D00d  thanks again

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Fired00d on February 28, 2008, 04:42:37 PM
JW,
No problem you're welcome. :2vrolijk_21:

Looks like it's coming along, can't wait until you can get it all back together and in the wind.

 :pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 :fireman:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Twolanerider on February 28, 2008, 05:42:45 PM

 I am not in a hurry as I still have snow to contend with but......

JW


Progress feels good no matter when it happens.  Congrats on seeing what you're accomplishing so far and knowing the rest isn't too far behind.  It'll be fun getting her all buttoned up.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 06:03:20 PM
Makes you feel like a kid a Christmas! ;D
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Twolanerider on February 28, 2008, 06:05:35 PM
Makes you feel like a kid a Christmas! ;D

Absolutely.  I just wrote a post down in the SEEG section describing the first real ride after having gotten my own put back together.  Need a bigger helmet just to fit the smile inside :drink: .
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on February 28, 2008, 06:23:11 PM
Jeff,

  It is great to pictures of the progress you are making.   This is the fun part for sure!   :2vrolijk_21:

Scott
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on February 28, 2008, 06:44:24 PM
You bethca Scott   Gets you all charged up......again!

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 01:54:19 PM
Finally got more to share. Parts all came in on Wednesday. I went to the shop Thursday afternoon to observe Ben put my baby back together. Here's the latest.

The heads - thermal coated combustion chamber, valve and exhaust port, flowed and diamond cut
cylinders - trued and diamond cut

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 01:56:40 PM
Cylinder base diamond cut
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 02:00:25 PM
S E cam plate and CR 595 cams
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 02:03:25 PM
Thermal coated combustion chamber and valves
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 02:07:08 PM
Thermal coated (top and skirt) 117 ci JE pistons installed
Chrome billet aluminum lifter covers
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on March 31, 2008, 02:11:09 PM
I've been wondering how you were doing with the build.  I'm glad to see your parts have arrived.  Almost (but not quite) in time for riding weather to set in.  I don't know about your place, but it is pouring rain today here - which is good because it will help wash the salt and sand from the roads.

Your parts look great.  Only a few days for you now!  Congratulations on the progress!   :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 02:15:14 PM
Heads and cylinders all tighten down. They finished her on Friday but I was unable to be there for the rest. I plan on picking her up tomorrow or Wednesday...weather will decide. Now to paint those saddle bags and chopped tour pak.

Thanks Scott. I'm really getting anxious to get on the road.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 02:17:35 PM
I'd like to again thank Gary for help with the pictures so I could post em.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: miker on March 31, 2008, 02:18:30 PM
Thanks for the update and am waiting for more...It is gonna be great!   :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Talon on March 31, 2008, 02:43:51 PM
Great pictures, looks a lot like Scott's build up pictures.

While I'm here, talking about builds, has anyone ever installed their pistons by installing them in the jugs first, so the skirt is sticking out just enough to get the wrist pin in, then slid the jugs on the studs? I saw this on another motor assembly. They installed the circlip on one side of the pitson, compressed the rings and pushed the piston into the jug, then they didn't need to get the ring compressor in there, between the studs.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 02:47:10 PM
Thanks Miker. If it would quite raining, with the occassional 30mph winds, I'd think about picking her up today. Tired of this weather in good ol Illinois.

Talon  I admit Scott's pics gave me an outline to follow.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on March 31, 2008, 02:49:18 PM
Great pictures, looks a lot like Scott's build up pictures.

While I'm here, talking about builds, has anyone ever installed their pistons by installing them in the jugs first, so the skirt is sticking out just enough to get the wrist pin in, then slid the jugs on the studs? I saw this on another motor assembly. They installed the circlip on one side of the pitson, compressed the rings and pushed the piston into the jug, then they didn't need to get the ring compressor in there, between the studs.

This is the method I used, except I used a ring compressor when bench installing the pistons into the jugs...  I pre-installed the base gasket and o'ring, then I pre-installed one circlip into the piston, then I slid the jug onto the studs far enough to install the piston pin into the piston, then I installed the second circlip - and then slide the jug onto the bottom end case...worked great!
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Talon on March 31, 2008, 02:52:51 PM
Thanks Miker. If it would quite raining, with the occassional 30mph winds, I'd think about picking her up today. Tired of this weather in good ol Illinois.

Talon  I admit Scott's pics gave me an outline to follow.

JW

Looks great! So did they coat your combustion chamber then do the valve job? I think I want to coat my pistons and chambers when I tear down my motor next winter.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Talon on March 31, 2008, 02:55:05 PM
This is the method I used, except I used a ring compressor when bench installing the pistons into the jugs...  I pre-installed the base gasket and o'ring, then I pre-installed one circlip into the piston, then I slid the jug onto the studs far enough to install the piston pin into the piston, then I installed the second circlip - and then slide the jug onto the bottom end case...worked great!

Good, then I won't need a new ring compressor! The one I have is for car motors and wouldn't come out if I installed the pistons first, then the jugs.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Fired00d on March 31, 2008, 04:30:53 PM
I'd like to again thank Gary for help with the pictures so I could post em.

JW
You're welcome, build is coming along nicely. :2vrolijk_21: Will not be long before you will hear.... Potato, potato, potato. ;D

 :pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 :fireman:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 04:38:50 PM
Thanks again Gary

Some more photos of the build
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 04:41:01 PM
The throttle body after clean up. This is the 08 SE electronic throttle control 58mm TB
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 04:42:20 PM
Interior of the SE cam plate
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on March 31, 2008, 04:42:33 PM
Alright Jeff, you're on your way!!! :2vrolijk_21:

Engine's looking good man! You getting close to finally getting past worrying about an engine in your bike now, and just be able to ride it. I'm still getting over being gun shy to trust it yet, after having so many issues last year. But it feels good, and after a few more miles I should have my confidence back. I'll be optimistic about it right now anyway! :huepfenjump3:

Good luck in completing it and getting it running great! ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 04:45:40 PM
Thermal coated exhaust ports
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 04:53:19 PM
Thanks Howie

Looking forward to many great years and miles on her with my lady riding next to me.  Now if these tornadoes would simply stay out of the area so I could go pick her up.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on March 31, 2008, 07:40:40 PM
JE 117 reversed dome pistons  thermal coated tops and skirts
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: miker on March 31, 2008, 09:34:31 PM
Schwing!!!! Rock on bro!   :pepper:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: skreminegul07 on April 01, 2008, 04:11:13 PM
Looks great, good luck!
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on April 01, 2008, 04:32:29 PM
skreminegul07

Thanks. Long way around fixing a cylinder liner problem.  ;D
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on April 01, 2008, 04:35:52 PM
Nitro

You'ld probably get better results posting your question in the this section
Intake/Exhaust/ECM

Good luck

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on April 06, 2008, 09:32:20 PM
Hi gang. Picked my scoot up on Saturday. I am very happy with how she sounds. Not a lot of noise for a 595 cam. I will still need to get her dynoed but she is strong as is. The electronic throttle control may have a small hiccup at the bottom. Will see if that can be tuned out of her.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on April 06, 2008, 09:35:12 PM
Hi gang. Picked my scoot up on Saturday. I am very happy with how she sounds. Not a lot of noise for a 595 cam. I will still need to get her dynoed but she is strong as is. The electronic throttle control may have a small hiccup at the bottom. Will see if that can be tuned out of her.

JW

Congratulations!   :2vrolijk_21:  Nice to have her home in one piece, isn't it?  And we finally had a taste of something other then winter (although it is still a bit chilly for to much riding)...  At least you can get some break in miles behind you!
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Fired00d on April 06, 2008, 09:40:47 PM
JW,
Looks good!!! Congrats on getting her done, and back in the wind. :2vrolijk_21:

 :pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 :fireman:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on April 06, 2008, 09:43:16 PM
Thanks Scott. Put a little over 300 miles on her Sat / Sun   Nice wind burn to the face.  Still some fine toning to do but I think she'll be more than I ever need. Still doing the hard bags and chopped tour pak.

Are they ever really done????

JW  

another pic
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on April 06, 2008, 09:44:49 PM
Thanks Gary   Couldn't share this with every one if it wasn't for your help, again, on the pics.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Fired00d on April 06, 2008, 09:46:07 PM
No problem you're welcome. I had the easy part. ;D

 :pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 :fireman:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on April 06, 2008, 09:50:06 PM
Once I get the final tune and dyno done I'll let everyone know my impressions. So far, I can't stop smiling. ;D

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on April 07, 2008, 10:54:00 PM
Got just over 300 miles on her. WOW am I going to like this motor!

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: FNGw/08SERK on April 08, 2008, 08:24:18 AM
Got just over 300 miles on her. WOW am I going to like this motor!

JW
Sounds like things are going well JW. The optimism is a good sign  :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on April 20, 2008, 11:47:31 PM
Hey gang. Got over 650 miles on her. Smile is still ear to ear.

I am experiencing a stutter every so often around 2200 to 2400 rpm in 4th or 5th gear. Not sure if this has anything to do with the new electronic throttle control or if she's just to rich. I'm not overly concerned until I get the final tune. She seems cooler than before. Hard to be sure this early in the ride season. I have not taken her over 3500 rpm yet and been there only briefly. She's pulling strong throughout the rpm scale I ride in. I am extremely happy to date.

I would like to find a round AC cover for the new 58mm SE TB - AC assembly. This football shaped cover comes back to far for me. I'll have to take it apart to see what might fit. The filter / back plate are different than the usual Stage 1. (page 27 in the 08 Screamin Eagle part catalog) Does anyone have knowledge or experience with this?  Would an AC for the 07 SERK fit?

More to come...

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: bisounours on April 21, 2008, 04:06:22 AM
Hey gang. Got over 650 miles on her. Smile is still ear to ear.

I am experiencing a stutter every so often around 2200 to 2400 rpm in 4th or 5th gear. Not sure if this has anything to do with the new electronic throttle control or if she's just to rich. I'm not overly concerned until I get the final tune. She seems cooler than before. Hard to be sure this early in the ride season. I have not taken her over 3500 rpm yet and been there only briefly. She's pulling strong throughout the rpm scale I ride in. I am extremely happy to date.

I would like to find a round AC cover for the new 58mm SE TB - AC assembly. This football shaped cover comes back to far for me. I'll have to take it apart to see what might fit. The filter / back plate are different than the usual Stage 1. (page 27 in the 08 Screamin Eagle part catalog) Does anyone have knowledge or experience with this?  Would an AC for the 07 SERK fit?

More to come...

JW

Look the big sucker AC from Arlen NESS with chrome backplate ! #18-512 2008 FL TOURING NESS BIG SUCKER STAGE 1 CHROME  119.99$ on Ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-FL-TOURING-NESS-BIG-SUCKER-STAGE-1-CHROME-18-512_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ35574QQihZ015QQitemZ250239226648 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2008-FL-TOURING-NESS-BIG-SUCKER-STAGE-1-CHROME-18-512_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ35574QQihZ015QQitemZ250239226648) 

The cover of a '07 SERK will fit on this new backplate (#18-512) .
The '07 backplate fit not on a '08 SERK.

Jacques
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: FNGw/08SERK on April 21, 2008, 09:14:47 AM
JW that diamond cut looks awesome on that bike. Glad to hear the build is meeting your expectations  :2vrolijk_21:

I thought the Big Sucker A/C pushed the cover out and interfered with the legs.  :nixweiss: I'm not sure but I would ask before I went that route.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on May 08, 2008, 09:59:05 PM
Hi to all

Tomorrow is dyno/tune day. :huepfenjump3: I'm looking forward to getting her dialed in. The A/F ratio is off as I'm running rich. The plugs are pretty dark. Hoping this will clear up the slight hesitation I'm experiencing intermittently. I'll try to post asap.

Everyone stay safe and keep the painted parts up!

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on May 08, 2008, 11:35:41 PM
Hi to all

Tomorrow is dyno/tune day. :huepfenjump3: I'm looking forward to getting her dialed in. The A/F ratio is off as I'm running rich. The plugs are pretty dark. Hoping this will clear up the slight hesitation I'm experiencing intermittently. I'll try to post asap.

Everyone stay safe and keep the painted parts up!

JW

Good luck with the tune Jeff!!! :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on May 09, 2008, 11:59:22 PM
Well I'm back from a long day of looking for ponies. There seems to be a number of them that got away when I wasn't looking. I don't have the proper program to download the disc provided to me on the map and dyno sheet so I can't share it with all but it comes down to this:
101 hp / 116 tq.  They may have said 103 hp but what's the difference! Needless to say,
I am not a happy camper.  >:(

I had these guys build me a 110 Street Glide last year. With a SERT, Stage 1 A/C and Rinehart TD. I got 93 hp / 113 tq. That was with the HD kit.

The following is the information I have at hand:
Compression check showed 185 lbs rear cylinder / 194 lbs front cylinder. Should this be more in the 210 lbs area?
The kit came with JE Reverse Dome pistons. Would flat tops make that much difference?
Axtell 117 cylinders honed by Cyclerama
Wes at Cyclerama did the heads. He says they flowed very good. I'm not sure the cc of the chamber. I'm checking with him via email.
I also used his 595 cam.       Intake open 21 / close 41  lobe center 100   overlap 34
                                     Exhaust open 49 / close 13  lobe center 108
                                     Intake duration 242  exhaust duration 242
Exhaust Rinehart True Duals with standard baffles.
Harley SE 58 mm throttle body with stage 1 A/C. Could the new electronic throttle system be part of the problem?

None of can believe the numbers we're getting. I would be happy with 1:1 cubic inches to HP. After the tune the hesitation I was experiencing is gone. So is the occasional sudden lurch of power. If anyone has any ideas, let me have em. I'm not looking to toss blame at anyone, just fix the problem. Everyone involved in this build is doing their best and it's driving crazy. Me..I started that way so I didn't have as far to go.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on May 11, 2008, 01:02:07 PM
Hey gang

Well the struggle continues...

Talked with Wes. Apparently the problem may indeed be Harley's new electronic throttle control system ( also called fly by wire by many ) It seems the TB will go wide open for a second or so then it is designed to close to 70 - 80%. The Race Tuner is unable to over ride this design. Harley has also stopped updating the Race Tuner (SERT) as they have gone to the Super Tuner.

The Super Tuner with the latest upgrade will let the TB go and stay wide open throughout the run. Of course its $500.00. And once I take the current SERT out, I can simply place it in the garbage can.

Can we be certain this will unleash the ponies. No.

I may put the stock 50 mm TB back on. My builder has done several 110 builds with cams and some head work that have made 110 HP easily. If the 50 mm makes more power with my build, I can be sure we've identified at least on of the problems.

This package of components has produce some very good numbers in 110 builds. Something is amiss but I still believe (hope) it's just a matter of finding the problem and making it right. I let you know...

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on May 11, 2008, 07:39:42 PM
Hey gang

Well the struggle continues...

Talked with Wes. Apparently the problem may indeed be Harley's new electronic throttle control system ( also called fly by wire by many ) It seems the TB will go wide open for a second or so then it is designed to close to 70 - 80%. The Race Tuner is unable to over ride this design. Harley has also stopped updating the Race Tuner (SERT) as they have gone to the Super Tuner.

The Super Tuner with the latest upgrade will let the TB go and stay wide open throughout the run. Of course its $500.00. And once I take the current SERT out, I can simply place it in the garbage can.

Can we be certain this will unleash the ponies. No.

I may put the stock 50 mm TB back on. My builder has done several 110 builds with cams and some head work that have made 110 HP easily. If the 50 mm makes more power with my build, I can be sure we've identified at least on of the problems.

This package of components has produce some very good numbers in 110 builds. Something is amiss but I still believe (hope) it's just a matter of finding the problem and making it right. I let you know...

JW

Jeff, Wes' headwork and cam combo worked better with a larger TB, not smaller. I got much better results with the 62mm than the 58mm. So I wouldn't go with the 50mm. It sounds like you might need that Super Tuner if you can't stay at WOT. How can you tune to WOT if you can't open the TB to WOT? Sounds like that Super Tuner is the only way to tune these new TBW bikes. :confused5:

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on May 26, 2008, 09:24:11 PM
Well I've got 2500 miles on her since the build. I know what my numbers are and I beleive there is more torque and ponies in her but.... This scoot moves just fine. When I get that occassional wild hair, she's more than willing to do all I want. I wish now I never knew the damn dyno numbers. She's the fastest scoot I've ever rod (well there was that SE VRod and a couple of race replicias)  I'm going to figure this TB thing out but I'm one happy rider.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on May 26, 2008, 09:28:48 PM
Oh BTW   No leaks! I still hope all this talk about Harley fixing the 110 is true. I'm still happy with the direction I took. Once I get the SERK finished, I'll move on to upgrading the FB 95". She needs some love too. :)
JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 01, 2008, 10:26:34 PM
As several have asked...

The motor has over 5500 miles on her with no leaks, no slips, no error. Still haven't put the super tuner on her to see what that will do as I'm riding when I'm not working. She's still stutters slightly every so often but I am happy with her for now. I hope when I get a little vacation time off, to see where I can go with the tune then.

Anyone out there done a tune with the SE 58 mm throttle body for the 08 electronic system?

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: AMP on July 02, 2008, 06:46:01 PM
Hey gang

Well the struggle continues...

Talked with Wes. Apparently the problem may indeed be Harley's new electronic throttle control system ( also called fly by wire by many ) It seems the TB will go wide open for a second or so then it is designed to close to 70 - 80%. The Race Tuner is unable to over ride this design. Harley has also stopped updating the Race Tuner (SERT) as they have gone to the Super Tuner.

The Super Tuner with the latest upgrade will let the TB go and stay wide open throughout the run. Of course its $500.00. And once I take the current SERT out, I can simply place it in the garbage can.  

Can we be certain this will unleash the ponies. No.

I may put the stock 50 mm TB back on. My builder has done several 110 builds with cams and some head work that have made 110 HP easily. If the 50 mm makes more power with my build, I can be sure we've identified at least on of the problems.

This package of components has produce some very good numbers in 110 builds. Something is amiss but I still believe (hope) it's just a matter of finding the problem and making it right. I let you know...

JW

That may not be so. I have heard that there is a way to "unlock" old tuners. I can check into it if you wish. I will be back on Monday...call me if you want to.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Unbalanced on July 03, 2008, 02:55:02 PM
Amp,

Curious what you mean by "unlock" the SERT and I mean this specifically to the fly by wire information. 
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 04, 2008, 12:01:16 AM
Amp

Most assuredly I am interested in a method to unlock the SERT so I could put it on a different scoot, say my 03 Fat Boy. Let me know!
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: AMP on July 07, 2008, 12:08:29 PM
Amp,

Curious what you mean by "unlock" the SERT and I mean this specifically to the fly by wire information. 
Harry,
It doesn't change the way the SERT works. Just enables it to work with a different VIN. I have heard tale of this being done(by the dealer). I have not tried to have it done myself.

JW,
I checked on the "unlock"...Apparently, Harley doesn't offer the service any longer. Whoever they had contracted with to mfg the Tuners are no longer in the picture. I will try to find out who that might be.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Unbalanced on July 07, 2008, 01:23:59 PM
Amp,

Harry,
It doesn't change the way the SERT works. Just enables it to work with a different VIN. I have heard tale of this being done(by the dealer). I have not tried to have it done myself.

Amp wondering how this might help Black Diamdond if all it did was allow it to work with a different vin?   

Quote
JW,
I checked on the "unlock"...Apparently, Harley doesn't offer the service any longer. Whoever they had contracted with to mfg the Tuners are no longer in the picture. I will try to find out who that might be.

To my knowledge Harley dealers never had access to the back end of the program to do this unless someone there was privy to a hack.   It was always standard operating procedure to sell you a new SERT or sell you a new SERT / ECM if the ecm took a dump.   When you link the SERT to the ECM it supposedly writes a code into a memory region of the ECM that allows it to check for its mated partner which is how it supposedly knows the difference between its mated ECM and a new ECM which is why just putting your vin into an ECM does not allow it to mate with the old SERT that was previously mated to another ECM.

Folklore has it there is supposedly a hack that enables you to write a vin into an ecm just like the digital tech does and there is also supposedly more tables to be shown in the old SERT that are hidden without it.   Until you see it for yourself it's just that, folklore and myth and nothing anyone actually admits to having / using / seeing anyhow.   

Original SERT was made by Steve Cole (TTS Inc.)  soon to release V-Tuner, MasterTune  per Steve Cole it is being released for 02 based bikes first.

Kent Moore (TheTurboShop)  makes the new Super Tuner


Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: AMP on July 07, 2008, 01:53:47 PM
Amp,

Amp wondering how this might help Black Diamdond if all it did was allow it to work with a different vin?   

It would help him to keep his old SERT outta the trash. It would be usable for another application.


To my knowledge Harley dealers never had access to the back end of the program to do this unless someone there was privy to a hack.   It was always standard operating procedure to sell you a new SERT or sell you a new SERT / ECM if the ecm took a dump.   When you link the SERT to the ECM it supposedly writes a code into a memory region of the ECM that allows it to check for its mated partner which is how it supposedly knows the difference between its mated ECM and a new ECM which is why just putting your vin into an ECM does not allow it to mate with the old SERT that was previously mated to another ECM.

Folklore has it there is supposedly a hack that enables you to write a vin into an ecm just like the digital tech does and there is also supposedly more tables to be shown in the old SERT that are hidden without it.   Until you see it for yourself it's just that, folklore and myth and nothing anyone actually admits to having / using / seeing anyhow.   

Original SERT was made by Steve Cole (TTS Inc.)  soon to release V-Tuner, MasterTune  per Steve Cole it is being released for 02 based bikes first.

Kent Moore (TheTurboShop)  makes the new Super Tuner

I don't know the specifics on how it was done, only that the service was available. (I have had an ECM "re-assigned" by HD.)

The point is moot now as HD no longer offers the service. Maybe Steve Cole could help a brother out...



[/quote]
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: AMP on July 07, 2008, 02:11:42 PM
To clarify: HD no longer offers the service that would "unlock" your old SERT to enable it to work with another VIN. They will, however, re-assign the ECM.

High AMP
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Unbalanced on July 07, 2008, 08:22:46 PM
BlackDiamond,

Checked with some people today and found that you should probably wait on the Super Tuner.   Apparently the throttlebody is closing after they hit 100 percent throttle and if you force it to stay open the ECM shuts down the bike.   I was also told they built delays into the throttlebody servos so when you wack the throttle there is a delay until past 30 percent throttle.    I was told the new V-Tuner which is made by the same guy that made the SERT is looking into this and hopefully by the end of the month or middle of next month should have a release that will work as needed.



Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 07, 2008, 08:27:23 PM
Thanks for the info Harry

The MoCo has me waiting anyway as they have been unable to get one to me :D
I have emailed Steve Cole on staying with the SERT but he's uncertain at this point what he'll be able to do.

She's running stong as is so I'm in no hurry until the seasons over.  :2vrolijk_21:

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Unbalanced on July 07, 2008, 08:33:48 PM
BlackDiamond I was talking to someone that is working very closely with Steve and he said that Steve is having to go back in and relook at the logic to make it work with his new V-Tuner.   I was told the logic / coding needed was not in the SERT.   Glad it is running ok for now, but I think when they get this ironed out for you that you will be really pleased with it in the end.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 07, 2008, 08:37:50 PM
That's what I'm hoping for. However it's good to start with a scoot you already love.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: AMP on July 08, 2008, 11:09:58 AM
Jeff, I spoke to Ben and he is on it. (Good guy)
All is well within the world.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 08, 2008, 08:57:28 PM
Well I hope I have good new to share with 08 riders. I am a layman to this stuff so please bear with me. It seems our new electronic throttle system is still having some growing pains. The MoCo has sent out a tech bulletin which I am about to butch as I try to explain it.

The ECM in the 08's is causing some to have a high idle. Additionally if you rev your bike and turn it off as the rpm's are coming down, the ECM will set the idle higher. In looking at this problem the tech guys may have discovered several other areas that are problems like not letting the throttle body go wide open until certain rpm is meet or stay wide open at higher rpm. They have a fix which I will be trying on Friday (18th)

I know many others could explain this in detail and understand what it all means. For me it means another avenue to explore with my current SERT before going to the Super Tuner. Maybe Springer or a number of others will see this tech bulletin and be able to pass along the pertinent details much better than I.

Thanks AMP for all you have done. Also like to thank Roger and Ben at Gutterridge HD for immediately following up on the information as soon as they became aware of it.

I'll let you guys (and gals) know the results.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: rednectum on July 08, 2008, 08:58:28 PM
BlackDiamond,

Checked with some people today and found that you should probably wait on the Super Tuner.   Apparently the throttlebody is closing after they hit 100 percent throttle and if you force it to stay open the ECM shuts down the bike. 





yessir, i have witnessed this on an 08 ultra.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: rednectum on July 08, 2008, 09:00:59 PM
Well I hope I have good new to share with 08 riders. I am a layman to this stuff so please bear with me. It seems our new electronic throttle system is still having some growing pains. The MoCo has sent out a tech bulletin which I am about to butch as I try to explain it.

The ECM in the 08's is causing some to have a high idle. Additionally if you rev your bike and turn it off as the rpm's are coming down, the ECM will set the idle higher. In looking at this problem the tech guys may have discovered several other areas that are problems like not letting the throttle body go wide open until certain rpm is meet or stay wide open at higher rpm. They have a fix which I will be trying on Friday (18th)

I know many others could explain this in detail and understand what it all means. For me it means another avenue to explore with my current SERT before going to the Super Tuner. Maybe Springer or a number of others will see this tech bulletin and be able to pass along the pertinent details much better than I.

Thanks AMP for all you have done. Also like to thank Roger and Ben at Gutterridge HD for immediately following up on the information as soon as they became aware of it.

I'll let you guys (and gals) know the results.

JW

after hearing the fast idle rumor, i held the throttle open on an 08 ultra and killed the engine----10 times in a row. it always returnrd to correct idle after restart. :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 08, 2008, 09:03:46 PM
Thanks for the info Dennis. I have never experienced this problem with my bike either. Just passing on some info hoping to get a good answer to my dilemma

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: AMP on July 09, 2008, 08:29:15 AM
I spoke to Steve Cole yesterday. He told me some interesting changes they have made as well. I am looking forward to seeing a new/old product. We had a nice LONG discussion about current issues and possible fixes therefore. He's a clever guy...

I hope everything works out for you Jeff. Keep us posted.

High AMP
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: gunrunner on July 09, 2008, 04:40:58 PM
My serk4 will sometimes idle at 2000 with hands off throttle, I have forced throttle back and as long as I hold it back it will idle at 1000, also I noticed the cruise light will be lit orange while this is happening. Any ideas?
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on July 09, 2008, 06:08:52 PM
My serk4 will sometimes idle at 2000 with hands off throttle, I have forced throttle back and as long as I hold it back it will idle at 1000, also I noticed the cruise light will be lit orange while this is happening. Any ideas?

My cruise light is orange when the cruise switch is set to "on" and cruise not set, and turns green when you have the cruise set. It goes out completely when I turn the switch off. Does your light stay on with the switch set to "off"? :confused5:

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: gunrunner on July 10, 2008, 06:20:09 PM
When its in that fast idle mode its stays on even with switch turned off.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sportygordy on July 10, 2008, 10:28:16 PM
after hearing the fast idle rumor, i held the throttle open on an 08 ultra and killed the engine----10 times in a row. it always returnrd to correct idle after restart. :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:

Was that a dealers bike you tried dat on?? ha ha
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: rednectum on July 10, 2008, 10:53:47 PM
Was that a dealers bike you tried dat on?? ha ha

i get em after the dealer tells the customer it is normal-----------------so no is your answer, whatever you were implying.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Steve Cole on July 12, 2008, 06:45:35 PM
We hope to begin shipping in the next couple weeks. I do not know the part numbers yet but I can give you the prices of the 2 Software Kits. I should have the cable kit prices next week.

Single Bike kit with no cables is $425.00

Dual Bike kit with no cables is $625.00

The packaging of the kits is due to begin here late next week, beginning of the following week. The office will start taking orders next Wednesday for those who would like to place an order.

What you get in the kit is the software CD and the interface. The kit uses the same cables as the original SERT used. There are 4 programs on the CD. MasterTune which is the tuning program. DataMaster which is your data logging software. V-Tune which is used for Closed loop engine Auto tuning and the TTS Updater which is used to keep all your programs up to date via the internet. The software does not include any base maps but when you run the update software it will allow you to get all the FREE maps we have on file. The software will work with all current .MT6 files that are out floating around and the new .MT7 files that have all the new added features.

2008 DBW bike .MT7 maps has the following features

Air Fuel Ratio
VE Front Cyl
VE Rear Cyl
PE Air Fuel Ratio
Warmup Enrichment
Cranking Fuel
Closed Loop Bias
Accel Enrichment
Decel Enleanment
Spark Advance Front Cyl
Spark Advance Rear Cyl
PE Spark
Spark Temperature Control
Closed Throttle Spark
Adaptive Knock Retard
Idle RPM
IAC Warmup Steps
IAC Crank to Run
Throttle Blade Control
Engine Displacement
Injector Size
Max Knock Retard
Knock Control Enable/Disable
EITMS Off/On
Rev Limit

Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: rednectum on July 12, 2008, 07:04:57 PM
bout time, cant wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 12, 2008, 10:08:17 PM
We hope to begin shipping in the next couple weeks. I do not know the part numbers yet but I can give you the prices of the 2 Software Kits. I should have the cable kit prices next week.

Single Bike kit with no cables is $425.00

Dual Bike kit with no cables is $625.00

The packaging of the kits is due to begin here late next week, beginning of the following week. The office will start taking orders next Wednesday for those who would like to place an order.

What you get in the kit is the software CD and the interface. The kit uses the same cables as the original SERT used. There are 4 programs on the CD. MasterTune which is the tuning program. DataMaster which is your data logging software. V-Tune which is used for Closed loop engine Auto tuning and the TTS Updater which is used to keep all your programs up to date via the internet. The software does not include any base maps but when you run the update software it will allow you to get all the FREE maps we have on file. The software will work with all current .MT6 files that are out floating around and the new .MT7 files that have all the new added features.

2008 DBW bike .MT7 maps has the following features

Air Fuel Ratio
VE Front Cyl
VE Rear Cyl
PE Air Fuel Ratio
Warmup Enrichment
Cranking Fuel
Closed Loop Bias
Accel Enrichment
Decel Enleanment
Spark Advance Front Cyl
Spark Advance Rear Cyl
PE Spark
Spark Temperature Control
Closed Throttle Spark
Adaptive Knock Retard
Idle RPM
IAC Warmup Steps
IAC Crank to Run
Throttle Blade Control
Engine Displacement
Injector Size
Max Knock Retard
Knock Control Enable/Disable
EITMS Off/On
Rev Limit



I think this is good news but to be honest I was lost after Steve gave the prices  :-[  I am not about to act like I know what any of the rest of that meant. That's why you talk with experts, learn what you can and make the best decision you are able to!

Steve, I'll be in touch..again.  I think I'm seeing light at the end of the tunnel. Or is that a train?  ;D

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Steve Cole on July 12, 2008, 10:44:48 PM
To answer how the 2008 DBW idle issue is happening I will try and explain it to you all. When the bike gets turned off the ECM expects that the Twist Grip Sensor is in the Zero position. If you have your hand on it and it is turned at all the system takes the information and learns it each time you shut it off. It averages the reading over 4 drive cycles. So each time it will adjust, just a little and can make the idle come up. My advise to all of you is to take you hand completely off the Twist Grip and then shut it off. If you currently have a high idle problem start the bike and get it up to normal operating temps. Take your hand off the Twist Grip completely and shut if off. Wait 10 seconds and start the bike again but do not touch the Twist Grip, PERIOD, then shut it off again. Do this 4 times in a row making sure to wait in between and the idle will return to normal. If it comes back up again it your causing the issue. We are looking into what we can do about it but do not have an answer just yet other than tell you not to turn the damn Twist Grip Sensor when turning the bike off.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 13, 2008, 12:32:28 AM
Thanks Steve. Good to know!

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 19, 2008, 08:41:58 AM
Well I got the download done and check the results on the dyno before we broke it. No change. We were able to verify the throttle body is staying wide open as it should. Based on the tq / hp numbers being close to identical, I am assuming Steve was correct in telling me the 58mm SE TB will work with the SERT.

On the up side:
I don't need to spend the additional $500 for the super tuner
The bike still has a lot of torque and I love the way she rides.

I'm not done trying to get better numbers out of her but I will not waste anymore good riding time chasing my tail. Maybe I'll take a vacation to Florida and let Wes and company take a shot at it. There's something amiss (heads, cams, rings, etc) but I for one do not have the expertise to know what. But I'm in good company, the vendor and builder feel the same way.

Ain't that important, my daughter comes home from Iraq in several weeks. Now that's important!

Bet she'd ride to Florida....

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 20, 2008, 05:12:25 PM
I'm posting this summary of my build to see if anyone can shed light on what went wrong with my package. This package is very similar to several fellow CVO members on their 110's. All are doing great. This isn't just about dyno numbers. I feel her hitting a brick wall once you open her up. Good at the bottom but flat on top. I've invested a lot of time and money, just looking to get what there out of her. If I can figure it out, it will be this winters project.

117 Build Summary: Upper
Cams and SE 110 head by Cycle Rama / Wes Brown
CR-595 lift cams
Intake: Open 21 Close 41 Lobe center 100 Overlap 34
Exhaust: Open 49 Close 13 Lobe center 108
Intake duration: 242 Exhaust duration: 242
Rocker ratio: Intake 1.625 Exhaust 1.625

CR-Screamin Eagle 110 heads - Port & polish your heads, Multi angle valve job on intakes, radius angle valve job on exhaust. Set valve to valve & seal to retainer clearance, set installed valve spring height, CC chambers, Mill heads. Flow test & Velocity probe ports

Intake valve size: 2.080 Multi angle cutter
Exhaust valve size: 1.620 Radius angle cutter

Valve spring pressure on the seat: #190 intake & exhaust
Valve to Valve clearance .260

Compression: 10.1 with a .040 head gasket -10cc pistons
.630 Valve stem protrusion on intake
.633 Valve stem protrusion on exhaust

Heads flowed on a Super Flow 1020 Pro Bench @ 10 inches
Lift    Intake    Exhaust    Flowed open port
.100    46.2    33.1
.200    84.9    75.1
.300    114.7    99.8
.350    130.1    110.3
.400    143.0    118.3
.450    152.4    125.9
.500    162.3    130.2
.550    170.1    131.8
.600    174.3    132.2
.650    179.9    132.7

Compression
10.1 to 1
9.3 to 1 corrected

Viton valve stem seals
Heavy Duty valve spring kit
Performance gasket kit
Port and polish heads / valve job / CC chambers / mill heads
Performance lifters

Axtell cylinders
Axtell 4.125 / 117 ci cylinders
JE stroker reverse dome pistons
JE rings

Throttle Body
Screamin Eagle Pro High Flow 58mm EFI
Screamin Eagle Pro High Flow Injector Kit - 5.3 gr/sec
Screamin Eagle Pro High Flow Air Cleaner and Breather Kit
Assembled by Gutterridge Harley Davidson - Danville Illinois

Lower:
Darkhorse / Hoben Bros
True and balance crank
Install Timken bearing
 
Gutterridge HD
Mill spigots for 117 ci cylinders
SE cam support plate
Clearance cam chest
Clearance rocker boxes
Torrington cam bearings
Roller rockers & SE rocker arm support
Quik Install Adjustable pushrods
Chrome billet aluminum lifter covers
AIM VP92T clutch upgrade

The dyno sheet is listed in the RoadKing stick postings.

After the low numbers from the dyno Gutterridge did a compression test which showed
185 lbs rear cylinder / 194 lbs front cylinder. Should this be more in the +200 lbs area?

I have been told by Cyclerama that the tune can not be successful using the Race Tuner as it is not compatible with the SE 58mm TB. Will not stay WOT. This information was passed on to CycleRama by HD Tech. HD experience the same problem with this TB on a Jim's 120 or 131. HD Tech used the Super Tuner and got the results they were looking for.

The latest download from HD to correct the high idle problem with the new electronic throttle system did not address my problem as was hoped. The download and re-dynoed showed no change that could not be room temp, etc. Less than two HP difference. However, the throttle plate appears to stay wide open when I watched the latest dyno runs. Since there is no real difference, I assume the TB was wide open on the first runs.

Sorry this post is so long. Just looking for help. This site has a lot of extremely knowledgable folks that may have the key to my problem.

TIA, JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Hoist! on July 20, 2008, 06:22:43 PM
Jeff, after testing this package (as a 110), we found that it needs a larger throttle body and exhaust than originally designed. Scott and I are using 62mm HPI. I think you'll only need 4,89 injectors too, not the 5.3's. What exhaust are you using. We found you need a large exhaust system too. I use the Performance FatCats as they tested the best. The way Wes has this top end setup and these 110 heads done, it needs to really flow in and out. It made a big difference when we were testing various components on mine.

With the changes I'm suggesting you'll see a new, nice flat torque curve and the bike will pull like a mutha to redline. You're TB and exhaust sound like they're holding that motor package back. I can't guarantee you anything, but that's exactly how I wound up with the components I did on the motor in the end. I tested til I got the best combo! ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Unbalanced on July 20, 2008, 07:31:57 PM
Black Diamond,

Not sure you will need to go to a larger throttlebody since atm there is not one to go to, The only issue I can see with the the 5.3 injectors  is the possibility of low speed cruise control if not tuned right it can be jerky.   I suspect when you get the butterfly to open and stay open at 100% the numbers will come up and you can put this behind you.   I hope that happens in the near term for you.   Has Steve Cole commented on this to you publically or privately since the new download which did not correct this issue?   He or Doc are probably your best source of information as Steve was the person who developed the SERT and now the TTS.
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 20, 2008, 08:37:07 PM
Hi Harry

I've been occupying a lot of Doc's time. He's been great. I sent you an email for some info. I know this is a good package. I've got three bro's on this site that have proven it to me.

Doc still feels it is the ECM. I'll let him speak for himself as I'll just mess it up. I do not see the aftermarket for TB's and the like to do much until the tuning devices can over ride the ECM's desire to shut things down.

This will get figured out. In the mean time, I love to ride her as is also. A real win - win. 8)

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: skyhook on July 20, 2008, 09:59:46 PM
I agree with what spiderman said in the road king dyno run thread...your cam is way too short...hillside cycle built a couple 117's with wood tw6 cams (which have similar duration as your cams)...I think they're posted on the hillside cycle or joe's cycle repair website...the charts are uncorrected so the numbers are higher than your sae...but if you look at the shape of the torque curve and the fact that they make about 15 points more tq than hp, I'd say there's nothing wrong with your build, you just ain't gonna make much more hp with those cams...just my opinion and I'm surely no expert!
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on July 20, 2008, 10:05:51 PM
I agree with what spiderman said in the road king dyno run thread...your cam is way too short...hillside cycle built a couple 117's with wood tw6 cams (which have similar duration as your cams)...I think they're posted on the hillside cycle or joe's cycle repair website...the charts are uncorrected so the numbers are higher than your sae...but if you look at the shape of the torque curve and the fact that they make about 15 points more tq than hp, I'd say there's nothing wrong with your build, you just ain't gonna make much more hp with those cams...just my opinion and I'm surely no expert!

Gotta disagree...  There are a few on the site that use the exact same cam as Jeff, and have achieved much better results.  Like everyone always says, it is the total package, not just a component that determines the results.  :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 20, 2008, 10:14:48 PM
What I'm trying to figure out is how this package as a 110 make in the area of 120tq /120hp. Give or take a little. Yet with more cubes it makes 116tq / 101hp. The package has been sound with others. To my way of thinking, either their is something terrible messed up or the 08 throttle system ECM is the culprit.

Hillside is one of the builders I spoke with. Great guys to talk with on the phone. They do seem to know their stuff.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: Black Diamond on July 20, 2008, 10:20:07 PM
Also, I don't want anyone to think I'm bashing CycleRama. They have called me on may occassions with ideas and whatevers new that they learn. They already have my money. They sincerely are working with me without me calling them.

Pam has called twice in the last three weeks with new information. The ECM download idea was floated to them. They called me. But first they called my HD builders to fill them in on what they had learned. Wes has talked to me a number of times also. I can tell this is getting at him. Good people.

JW
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on July 20, 2008, 10:23:28 PM
Also, I don't want anyone to think I'm bashing CycleRama. They have called me on may occassions with ideas and whatevers new that they learn. They already have my money. They sincerely are working with me without me calling them.

Pam has called twice in the last three weeks with new information. The ECM download idea was floated to them. They called me. But first they called my HD builders to fill them in on what they had learned. Wes has talked to me a number of times also. I can tell this is getting at him. Good people.
JW

Couldn't agree more.  Wes, Pam and Chuck are great folks....   :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: gunrunner on July 21, 2008, 11:46:39 AM
Black Diamond I will throw my .02 cents in the mix.

you say compression tested 185lbs. with 117 jugs and stock heads that should raise comp ratiio, more volume same combustion chamber size, than you put in a longer duration cam which would lower cranking pressure somewhat.

on the acr thread unbalanced had trouble with his acr's and stated normal comp  is 210lbs to 220lbs, it seems to me even with your cams you should be well over 200lbs compression
Title: Re: 110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options
Post by: sadunbar on July 21, 2008, 11:58:09 AM
Black Diamond I will throw my .02 cents in the mix.

you say compression tested 185lbs. with 117 jugs and stock heads that should raise comp ratiio, more volume same combustion chamber size, than you put in a longer duration cam which would lower cranking pressure somewhat.

on the acr thread unbalanced had trouble with his acr's and stated normal comp  is 210lbs to 220lbs, it seems to me even with your cams you should be well over 200lbs compression

Jeff noted in an earlier post that the 110 heads had been modified by Cycle Rama....

"CR-Screamin Eagle 110 heads - Port & polish your heads, Multi angle valve job on intakes, radius angle valve job on exhaust. Set valve to valve & seal to retainer clearance, set installed valve spring height, CC chambers, Mill heads. Flow test & Velocity probe ports"