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[Dan_Lockwood]

I've been reading this thread with great interest, but I don't know what I really want to do.

I know that with my bike at just over 16k miles, an '09 SERG, that this winter I want to change out the lifters, that's for sure.  Do I do any other work at the same time?  I know I'm not going to get into changing out throttle body, heads for head work, but jugs / pistons may be an option.

The purpose of the reply is to all of the people that say they have this or that cam and they're known for being noisy.  We've all complained early on about the 110" being noisy with the 2300/3200 rpm rattles etc.

So if you have one of the "noisy" cams, what exactly is causing the noise over another cam?

I know, it's the aggressive cam profiles.  To gain power you need to open and close the valves quicker to maximize the time they're open to get maximum cylinder fill and exhaust.

If the lifters are on the cam under pressure of the valve springs and "never" lose contact with the cam, how would that make the motor noisier?

In my mind the only way to make more noise would be if the lifter floated on the close side of the cam lobes.  I'm probably all wrong with my assumptions on that though.

If losing contact on the down side lobe is not the issue with noise, is it that the lifters are being beat up so bad with the steep ramp of the lobe that they bottom out in the hydraulic pump of the lifter?  Or is it that the down side of the fast lobe the hydraulics cannot keep the push rod under pressure?  But I find that hard to believe because the valve is fully open and that particular valve train is under great pressure from the valve spring.

So my little inquisitive mind would like to know what makes a cam "noisy"?  The simple answer is aggressive lobes, but that's not what I'm asking.

Anyone care to fill me in?

I always try to learn something everyday.  This may be my daily lesson.

Thanks in advance.

Have a great day all...

[FLSTFI Dave]

Dan,

Wish I could answer.  Like you said, it has to do with the aggressive ramp of the higher lift cam.  I would think that the lifter or push rod does loose contact for a moment when it quits going up or opening and starts to close.  That would be a very rapid direction change.  This is just my educated guess.

Does anyone know for sure why some cams are noisier?

I would think if your going to do Jug and pistons you would need to do the cam and injectors at a minimum to go with it.  I could be wrong.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

the cam noise is / can be an odd thing for the most part std cams are not going to make noise but you get one or two that will be louder than you thought they would. Based on using the same parts over and over it not in the mix but more so in the rockers or end play, can also be lifter bore size or lifter bore off set . 

Had a customer CMM a case once and it was anything but "right" the decks where off in height and not parallel , lifters bores out of alignment.  Just what it is ..

We have two more 117 going together customer just dropped off from Alberta. 

[Dan_Lockwood]

the cam noise is / can be an odd thing for the most part std cams are not going to make noise but you get one or two that will be louder than you thought they would. Based on using the same parts over and over it not in the mix but more so in the rockers or end play, can also be lifter bore size or lifter bore off set . 

Had a customer CMM a case once and it was anything but "right" the decks where off in height and not parallel , lifters bores out of alignment.  Just what it is ..

We have two more 117 going together customer just dropped off from Alberta.

Thanks for the information.

I posted this above, but thought I'd ask directly.

What is your opinion on a 110" to just changing the jugs/pistons to the 117" and keeping the stock SE255 cam and 50mm TB?

Would I just pick up some added low end from the lager displacement?  Or would I see "some" overall improvements, but obviously nothing like the builds you do or others have done?

I appreciate all of your wisdom that you've shared with the forum, been a very good learning experience for me over the years.

Thanks and have a great day.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Well the comp ratio with the 255 at 10.1 is going to need a great tuner and you will need to work heavily on the timing tables. It will make a ton of tq but best guess is it will fall off very fast . Faster than stock as you have a larger air pump hence you need to feed the pump . Many of the bolt in cams would be a better choice . Look at the 113 that we did with stock heads stock t/b with you 577. The cam is small and you can see that it made great tq and the curve is something that you use all the time and the HP still pulls out , over all a broad curve.

IF you decide to add a 58 t/b I would bump the comp ratio just a touch to 10.5 you can still leave the heads stock and make great power at that point the 259 cam will work ( myself not a huge fan of it but it does work decent) or opt for a cam with a better timing vs lobe. but that is a whole new topic 

Here are a few examples of how a smaller cam works in a larger engine. I am not saying use MY cam just showing the curves for illustration.

Good luck

[Dan_Lockwood]

Well the comp ratio with the 255 at 10.1 is going to need a great tuner and you will need to work heavily on the timing tables. It will make a ton of tq but best guess is it will fall off very fast . Faster than stock as you have a larger air pump hence you need to feed the pump . Many of the bolt in cams would be a better choice . Look at the 113 that we did with stock heads stock t/b with you 577. The cam is small and you can see that it made great tq and the curve is something that you use all the time and the HP still pulls out , over all a broad curve.

IF you decide to add a 58 t/b I would bump the comp ratio just a touch to 10.5 you can still leave the heads stock and make great power at that point the 259 cam will work ( myself not a huge fan of it but it does work decent) or opt for a cam with a better timing vs lobe. but that is a whole new topic 

Here are a few examples of how a smaller cam works in a larger engine. I am not saying use MY cam just showing the curves for illustration.

Good luck

Thanks a lot...

That's exactly what I wanted to know.

I have everything stock know in my 110" except for a de-catted stock header, Fullsac 2.5" baffle (which probably doesn't help my current low end) and Fullsac's TTS and his map.

As long as I'm going to be swapping out lifters this winter, I was just "thinking" about adding a bit more low to mid range and was thinking that the 117" jug/pistons would be a good addition.  Although your 113" with a mild cam and exhaust seems to do exactly what I'm thinking about.

I may go back to a set of 2" baffles to get back a bit more of the lower end AND keep the slightly louder pipes than going all the way back to the 1.75" baffles.  Honestly, when I went to the 2.5" from the set of 2" that I had and since sold, I really didn't notice much if any difference in performance, single or two up.

If I were to do the 113" and cam from you along with getting a new header from Fullsac, would you provide the map for your tune?  Would it be "close" enough to give me some lower end thrills?

I forgot to mention that I've done the 32t down to the 30t drive pulley conversion.  This alone made quite a difference in get up and go, almost like doing an engine mod...  I highly recommend it, especially for riding two up.  It gets you going a lot better in first gear; not nearly as much clutch slipping needed.  But with a lot more lower end torque, it may not be the best option. 

Thanks again for the information.  I'm thinking that many others here will be very happy to see what can be done with stock TB and stock compression.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

Dan yes we can provide a map but as always  I would suggest that you have it professionally dyno tuned .

[FAST380]

Dan, I went from the 2.25 cores to the 2.5 cores (without a retune) and didn't think there was a performance difference, after a couple years I started noticing a lack of bottom end torque. I recently put the 2.25 baffles back in and was surprised how much of a difference I noticed. Just sayin the 2.5 cores may be hurting you more than you realize.

[Pan1]

I read through about an hour on this thread. I am thinking of a 117 upgrade to my 2015 CVO RG. I am wanting to stay with HD parts. Is there a Dyno comparison between the 259 and 285 cam? I've ran the 259 in a 110 with 10.5 SE pistons and thought it pulled overall good, however it was a soft down low and need about 70 mph to run in 6th. Also what actual gains are being seen from using the Cometic head gasket and does anyone have the part number?
Thank you

[HUBBARD]

Guys, we're all looking for more power, and we always will be. First of all, none of us here are paupers, or we wouldn't be riding a Harley, much less a top of the line, CVO.  That said, I understand, everybody has their financial limits, but if you've got access to $40K, what's the problem with putting $10K, or $15K more, in the pot, to make it a front runner?  Don't take me wrong here, as my funds are limited, too.  However, I've found that I run faster, when something is chasing me!  Like bustin' somebody's ass!  Just build you a Motor than will be hard to beat!  That's what you want, so why not do it?  All this bullchit about cams and TB's, and Heads, hell, build a Motor!  Stock is junk, and everybody knows it!  I know I may come across as an asshole, but once you get to know me, I'm not.  I just like to ride fast!  Just speaking my mind.  I've spent tens of thousands of dollars, over the years on Harley Motors, and I probably will continue to, but that's the game I play.  I've out run some, and I've been outrun, too.  It's an addiction.  And broke don't cure it.  So.....jump out there in the deep water, and build you a Motor from hell, and quit phucking around.  That's what Bank's are for!  It's only money, and it was made to spend!  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD       

[SDCVO]

Guys, we're all looking for more power, and we always will be. First of all, none of us here are paupers, or we wouldn't be riding a Harley, much less a top of the line, CVO.  That said, I understand, everybody has their financial limits, but if you've got access to $40K, what's the problem with putting $10K, or $15K more, in the pot, to make it a front runner?  Don't take me wrong here, as my funds are limited, too.  However, I've found that I run faster, when something is chasing me!  Like bustin' somebody's ass!  Just build you a Motor than will be hard to beat!  That's what you want, so why not do it?  All this bullchit about cams and TB's, and Heads, hell, build a Motor!  Stock is junk, and everybody knows it!  I know I may come across as an asshole, but once you get to know me, I'm not.  I just like to ride fast!  Just speaking my mind.  I've spent tens of thousands of dollars, over the years on Harley Motors, and I probably will continue to, but that's the game I play.  I've out run some, and I've been outrun, too.  It's an addiction.  And broke don't cure it.  So.....jump out there in the deep water, and build you a Motor from hell, and quit phucking around.  That's what Bank's are for!  It's only money, and it was made to spend!  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD       

Never heard it better said!

[Dan_Lockwood]

Hubbard, I understand and can appreciate your point of view.... but!

I once liked to ride fast and didn't have a problem with chasing or being chased.  But at this point in "my" life, riding two up back country roads, stopping at little out of the way places etc, I find that having more lower end torque in the 2500 rpm range more of a plus than being able to pull away from someone at 85 mph.  Except for GTG's, which I've only done one so far, we very seldom ride with more than another bike or two, mainly just the wife and I alone on my bike.

"For me", worrying about top end hp and how fast I can go is not important.  Again, this is only my point of view for me, no one else.

So if I can get more torque by going with a big bore kit without high lift/duration cam and larger TB, I would consider going down that road.  Knocking at the rev limiter every shift is not my style of riding anymore.

The bottom line is that I'm not unhappy with my stock 110" with Fullsac baffles and the TTS map Fullsac supplied.  I'm only saying that IF I were to do something when I change out my stock lifters this winter as preventative maintenance, I might add some cubes to the motor.  If it were not for the potential grenading lifters, I wouldn't even consider any motor changes.  When I did the 32t down to 30t drive sprocket, that alone made a huge difference in lower end oomph off the line.  Really about the best mod I've done to the bike, other than the new Corbin seat combo from '15 Sturgis.

I guess I'm in the minority here as it seems everyone else wants the biggest and baddest motor they can muster.

I apologize if I'm being contrary to the flow here, but again, that's what makes this site so diverse and enjoyable.  Everyone has their opinion and they usually get respect on here.  As seen by SDCVO seconding your last post.  But not all opinions are good for everyone.  And obviously mine does not fit your wants.  So we will just agree to disagree on what's best for each of us.

By the way, I'll keep sending you some want ads when I see them.  Who knows, you may find that diamond in the rough you've been dreaming about... 

[HUBBARD]

Hey, Thanks Dan!  And you are exactly right!  I get way out there sometimes, and probably shoulda' kept my mouth shut.  I'm better at that than I used to be, but I still have plenty of room for improvement!    Later--HUBBARD

[manllyy]

I got plan to upgrade creaming eagle 117 cu , on my CVO breakout 2016 . I need some idea from you guys


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[Dan_Lockwood]

Hey, Thanks Dan!  And you are exactly right!  I get way out there sometimes, and probably shoulda' kept my mouth shut.  I'm better at that than I used to be, but I still have plenty of room for improvement!    Later--HUBBARD

Hubbard, like I said, no one is knocking no one here.  It's all good, but just not a one size fits all.

Do I run my bike up once in a while on the freeway on ramp, bet your ass I do, but it's a short lived thing for me and then I'm back to my 2-lane Sunday driving style.  I probably piss off people behind me sometimes.  I've been known to pull off just to let cars etc go by, then I get back into my slo-mo mode.