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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: SBB on July 31, 2009, 06:47:23 PM

Title: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: SBB on July 31, 2009, 06:47:23 PM
Here is a story about excessive noise from my 09 SEUC 110.

Please note,
This is the story and what I did to correct a problem, it worked for me and I'm sure that properly installed it will reduce noise in other 110's.


At around 11000 miles on the 09 I started to hear an excessive ticking sound from the lifters at cold start up.
The odd thing was that the ticking didn't happen at cold start everytime. I presumed that was caused by the position of the pushrods on the lifters at shut down.
The ticking sound was loud enough to be heard over other bikes exhaust but would only lasted maybe 20 to 25 seconds as the lifter began to pump up.
Upon start up the lifters pumped up and all was well, the bike ran good and strong.
At approx. 12000 miles I took the bike to the Harley shop and let them listen.
YES they said, you have a lifter bleeding down to cause that sound.
So I asked, how do you tell which one, the answer was, we don't, we just change all 4.
OK, I'm in with that. All 4 were changed.
A couple weeks later I rode up to Shenandoah Harley Davidson to meet d00d.
Life was good, till I cranked the bike, at 14000 miles and a cold start the ticking sound was back.
I took the bike back to the Harley shop, they called Harley Davidson, the Harley shop was told by the Motor Company to install a external oil pressure gauge to monitor oil pressure at start up. Never could get the excessive ticking sound at start up. But the good news was that at cold start up the oil pressure jumped to 38lbs. EVERYTIME!
The Harley shop started my bike at least 20 times and of that 20 times I was there for 18 of the cold start ups. No Ticking, My Luck.
Knowing that the bike would run good and strong I put another 1000 miles on it and as I approached the time to ride to Naitram's I had the Harley shop check it again to see if they could hear the ticking. Same results, they never could start it and make it tick excessively.
Knowing I had a 2600 mile trip in front of me I talked with a member of this site about this issue. He said to solve the problem I needed to install S&S lifters with travel limiters and the Screamin Eagle tapered pushrods.
I ride to Mass, NH and Maine and by the time I got home it was a 2600 mile trip and I had 17600 miles on the bike.
While I rode with d00d, Naitram and Sue at just about every cold start up We heard the excessive ticking.
When I got home I took the bike back to the Harley shop.
They put the external gauge on it and let it cool off. They cranked it, the gauge shot up to 38 and the lifters were ticking excessively. Finally, they heard it!
The tech called Harley Davidson expecting Harley Davidson to say "change the lifters again." Wrong, he was told he needed to spend the time to determine which lifter was bad.
He did that and told them he thought two of the lifters were bleeding down more than they should. Harley Davidson then asked, how long does these lifters tick loudly at cold start. The techs answer was, about 20 seconds or so. Harley Davidson told the tech to let it sit, till cold and then "time it" to determine how long it ticked excessively.
The tech did exactly that, he called Harley Davidson back and told them it ticks excessively approx 20 to 25 seconds at cold start up.
Now get this, Harley Davidson said excessive ticking on a 110 engine for 30 seconds or less was in spec!
The tech said are you kidding? They responded Sorry, not our problem, it's within spec.
The tech was amazed and told the service manager. The service manager called and got the same answer.
He told Harley Davidson that's unacceptable. He asked, what if we use Screamin Eagle lifters? They said that will not help. The service manager asked well what are your suggestions. Harley Davidson said, you could use the S&S lifters with travel limiters. The service manager asked, will you warranty that? Nope, the bike is within spec as is.
Great! At some point we must do what we have to do.

S&S lifters were ordered.
part number 33-5351  S & S high performance tappets with travel limiters

Screamin Eagle tapered pushrods were ordered.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524448771676&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302319517&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302319517&bmUID=1247796574630&bmLocale=en_US

There is good news to this story.
As many have read in the past I have stated that my 110 was a very noisy motor.
Was at mile 9 when I picked it up and always has been.

Not any more!
What a world of difference with the above parts installed.
My 110 now makes no more noise than the 95" SERG, the 95" Classic and the 103" SEEG.
WOW, what a reduction in valve train noise.
IMHO the Harley Davidson Motor Company failed to treat a very faithful and loyal customer properly.
I understand now that doing the right and fair thing may not always be how Harley Davidson chooses to handle their warranty work and plan to address that with The Motor Company in my own way.
How that turns out will be another post!

But for now, the 09 SEUC at 10 months old is running great, strong and quiet.

SBB
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Hoist! on July 31, 2009, 06:56:43 PM
HeHe!!! Lotsa words just to say "get the HD junk outta the 110 and use REAL parts in em"!!! Been saying that since day one! Ya can't expect parts from a 60HP motor, to hold up at 100-130 HP! Leave it BONE STOCK, you MIGHT be OK! Do any mods, good luck with them 110's holding together!!! Build a real bottom end, use quality barrels and pistons, overhaul the valvetrain and cam setup, change TB's, now you're talking a REAL engine! You prolly never heard me say this before, so here goes.....................................................................





























THIS CHIT AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!! ;D ;D :D

FTF!!! FTD!!! FTW!!! ;)





BTW, Lifters and Pushrods aren't intake or exhaust parts. They're engine parts. So this prolly belongs in Twin Cam! ::)

Hoist! :coolblue:
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: naitram on July 31, 2009, 07:48:40 PM
no more coffee can full of rocks is a good thing. but help a guy out here what does S&S do differently that "limits travel"
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: jfh on July 31, 2009, 07:53:55 PM
Chip,

Glad the problem has been resolved and hope that the S&S travel limiters continue to perform well.

Naitram,

S&S travel limiters are available for most hydraulic lifters. They are actually spacers that fit inside the bore of the lifter to prevent it from bleeding down too far or collapsing during high load situations.
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: sadunbar on July 31, 2009, 08:16:08 PM
no more coffee can full of rocks is a good thing. but help a guy out here what does S&S do differently that "limits travel"

Stock lifter total internal travel is .200/inch.  "Travel Limiters" are spacers installed into the lifter body that reduce total internal lifter travel to .100/inch.  With properly adjusted pushrod length, internal lifter travel is set to a max. of .050".

The travel limiters reduce the amount of valvetrain clearance that is possible in any number of conditions.  Most important maybe is at startup(especially important a hot motor).  And travel limiters reduce the potential for valve float at high RPM conditions.

Do you ever notice that when your motor is hot, and your oil pressure drops to almost nothing at idle - like at a stop sign or exit ramp - that your motor sounds noisier that normal?  That is because at low oil pressure (like you have with a hot motor at idle), you do not have enough oil pressure to keep the lifters expanded (pumped up) - so the result is looseness in the valve train - which causes noise.  When you accelerate away, the motor gets quiet again, because increased oil pressure as your RPM increases has again expanded the lifters to eliminate the looseness with hydraulic pressure.  Without travel limiters, the looseness is .100 or greater.  With travel limiters, the looseness is limited to .050.

Starting a hot motor is easier with travel limiters, because again, you are limited to .050 max looseness vs. .100/.125 looseness with stock lifters.  This looseness effects your motor timing - up until the lifters pump up and expand - (which eliminates the looseness - and corrects your timing).  

And, at high RPM, where there is a potential to "float" your valves - you are again limited to .050 max looseness.  Valve float occurs when the RPM becomes so great that the centrifigal force of motion overcomes the hydraulic lift capability of the lifters.  The "weight" of the valvetrain (including centrifical force) can become stronger than the hydraulic capability of the lifter at very high RPM - (the hydraulic capability of the lifter at whatever oil pressure you are running).   Travel limiters reduce the amount valves can "float".
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: naitram on July 31, 2009, 08:27:06 PM
so this is a modification to the HD lifter, not a complete lifter assembly from S&S?
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: sadunbar on July 31, 2009, 08:29:21 PM
so this is a modification to the HD lifter, not a complete lifter assembly from S&S?

It can be a modification to a HD lifter - but S&S makes a far superior lifter (IMO).  You can buy the S&S lifter with travel limiters already pre-installed.
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: naitram on July 31, 2009, 08:39:30 PM
thanks for the clarification
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: SBB on July 31, 2009, 09:31:39 PM
It can be a modification to a HD lifter - but S&S makes a far superior lifter (IMO).  You can buy the S&S lifter with travel limiters already pre-installed.


And that's what I had installed in mine!
Along with the Harley tapered pushrods.

SBB




Quote
Chip,

Glad the problem has been resolved and hope that the S&S travel limiters continue to perform well.
Thanks

 :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Twolanerider on July 31, 2009, 10:21:37 PM
Chip, are these Expensive lifters or EXPENSIVE lifters?  I know, compared to the cost of a motor they're cheap.  But still curious.
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Black Diamond on July 31, 2009, 10:28:22 PM
Chip, are these Expensive lifters or EXPENSIVE lifters?  I know, compared to the cost of a motor they're cheap.  But still curious.

R&R sells em for 229.95 plus shipping.  

JW
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Black Diamond on July 31, 2009, 10:34:21 PM
Chip

I'm experiencing a little ticking myself. Thanks for the info. You too Scott!

MoCo..You are not doing the right thing here!

JW
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Twolanerider on July 31, 2009, 10:45:43 PM
R&R sells em for 229.95 plus shipping.  

JW

Thanks Jeff.  I did a quick look but didn't realize until after I'd transposed two in the part number.  So I found squat.
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: sadunbar on July 31, 2009, 10:47:07 PM
Chip, are these Expensive lifters or EXPENSIVE lifters?  I know, compared to the cost of a motor they're cheap.  But still curious.

S&S MSRP is $269...  You can get them as cheap as $229 from several sources...
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Black Diamond on July 31, 2009, 10:48:55 PM
If they remove the ticking sound, they would be worth every penny. 1st going to try adjusting em per TR (T-Mans) specs.

JW
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: SBB on July 31, 2009, 10:54:14 PM
S&S MSRP is $269...  You can get them as cheap as $229 from several sources...


S&S     269.00 retail
Harley  269.00 retail

Now based on how Harley stood behind my warranty issue, imagine how easy my choice was.  :nixweiss:


SBB


 :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: spydglide on July 31, 2009, 11:00:44 PM

S&S     269.00 retail
Harley  269.00 retail

Now based on how Harley stood behind my warranty issue, imagine how easy my choice was.  :nixweiss:


SBB


 :2vrolijk_21:

It is good to have 'choices'.  ;)  har!  spyder
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: SBB on August 01, 2009, 08:27:29 AM
It is good to have 'choices'.  ;)  har!  spyder


I agree Spyd.

My 110 use to be a noisy 110 and I learned to live with that.
I have ridden with many 110's and know they can be quieter than mine.
Until I had the excessive ticking from the lifters at cold starts and the Motor Company chose to call that condition within spec, I didn't realize there was a cure.
And a cure it is, WOW what a reduction in motor noise.

SBB

 :2vrolijk_21:

Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: skreminegul07 on August 01, 2009, 11:31:59 AM
Chip,

I'm glad the ticking in the engine is gone.  I sense you are still "ticked off" at HD.
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: SBB on August 02, 2009, 11:45:20 AM
Chip,

I'm glad the ticking in the engine is gone.  I sense you are still "ticked off" at HD.


Your so perceptive!

SBB
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Gecko on August 02, 2009, 02:00:16 PM
Are we picking up a pattern here?  If the problem is sporatic they tell you that it's "normal" and send you on your way.  If it is wide-spread that they would have to do something about it they change the official definition of "normal" and send everybody on their way.   I usually wear a set of molded silicone ear plugs and at least a half helmet.  At the rally last week I rode a while with neither and could not believe the noises my 110 made; it's a wonder it even made it home. 
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Wildrat on August 02, 2009, 07:32:52 PM
When I installed the new cams, gear drive in my two bikes I used the S&S lifters and pushrods and they did quiet things down a lot. I am happy with them and also ck M&M for pricing also.
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: hogasm on September 10, 2009, 04:40:06 PM
When I installed the new cams, gear drive in my two bikes I used the S&S lifters and pushrods and they did quiet things down a lot. I am happy with them and also ck M&M for pricing also.

Who is M&M :nixweiss:
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Texas 103 on September 10, 2009, 06:28:24 PM
Who is M&M :nixweiss:

M&M Cycles in Ohio...Mark Is  a Stand Up Guy..Great Folks to do business with... 
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: spydglide on September 10, 2009, 06:42:56 PM
M&M Cycles in Ohio...Mark Is  a Stand Up Guy..Great Folks to do business with... 
Absolutely!  A few of us around here have dealt with him with great results.  Good prices and great customer relations.  :2vrolijk_21: spyder
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Wildrat on September 11, 2009, 07:43:53 PM
Yep, and I can remember their names, since it's the same as mine and the wife's.
https://www.mandmcycles.com (https://www.mandmcycles.com)
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: grc on September 11, 2009, 08:49:27 PM

Harley-Davidson management seems to be doing it's damnedest to throw away any customer goodwill still out there, in their never ending quest to maximize profits through use of cheap parts and cheap engineering.  Crank pinion shafts wobbling more than a drunk on Saturday night?  No problem, just change the spec.  Brake rotors warp if you look at them cockeyed?  No problem, just change the spec.  Paint job looks like something done in a back yard garage?  No problem, just change the spec to "must be visible from at least 10 feet from bike".  Powder coat peels from engine cases?  No problem, use this brush touch-up paint.  Lifters bleed down overnight and rattle for 20 seconds before pumping back up?  No problem, that's in spec too.

It appears that the MoCo needs another takeover by an employee group or a group of enthusiasts, just like back in the AMF days.  Current management obviously is short term, hooray for me, typical Harvard Business School types looking to pad their own nest at the long term expense of the customers, shareholders, and employee's.  After this latest little exercise in H-D stupidity and cheapness, is there still any question in anyone's mind why I refuse to buy another bike from these asses?

Jerry
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: REGGAB on September 11, 2009, 10:27:52 PM
Harley-Davidson management seems to be doing it's damnedest to throw away any customer goodwill still out there, in their never ending quest to maximize profits through use of cheap parts and cheap engineering.  Crank pinion shafts wobbling more than a drunk on Saturday night?  No problem, just change the spec.  Brake rotors warp if you look at them cockeyed?  No problem, just change the spec.  Paint job looks like something done in a back yard garage?  No problem, just change the spec to "must be visible from at least 10 feet from bike".  Powder coat peels from engine cases?  No problem, use this brush touch-up paint.  Lifters bleed down overnight and rattle for 20 seconds before pumping back up?  No problem, that's in spec too.

It appears that the MoCo needs another takeover by an employee group or a group of enthusiasts, just like back in the AMF days.  Current management obviously is short term, hooray for me, typical Harvard Business School types looking to pad their own nest at the long term expense of the customers, shareholders, and employee's.  After this latest little exercise in H-D stupidity and cheapness, is there still any question in anyone's mind why I refuse to buy another bike from these asses?

Jerry

None here, Jerry.  Learned my lesson with my 06 SEUC.  Poured a bunch of $$$$ into the Green Bike to make it right.  Some of the expenditure was a "learning process."  If it isn't 2002 or older, I don't want it.  All I need is a 1998 FLTRI in 95th Anniversary colors to complete my touring fleet, and when I do get it, and it may be a few years, the first mod will be conversion to carb.  I'm not in any hurry, but I am done with the new stuff.
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Twolanerider on September 11, 2009, 10:47:33 PM
None here, Jerry.  Learned my lesson with my 06 SEUC.  Poured a bunch of $$$$ into the Green Bike to make it right.  Some of the expenditure was a "learning process."  If it isn't 2002 or older, I don't want it.  All I need is a 1998 FLTRI in 95th Anniversary colors to complete my touring fleet, and when I do get it, and it may be a few years, the first mod will be conversion to carb.  I'm not in any hurry, but I am done with the new stuff.

Working from what'll be a ten year old memory here Henry.  But I think the 95th anniversary trimmed touring bikes were available as either carbed or Marelli bikes.
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: SBB on September 11, 2009, 10:58:07 PM
Working from what'll be a ten year old memory here Henry.  But I think the 95th anniversary trimmed touring bikes were available as either carbed or Marelli bikes.


Is that similar to the memory of a ten year old?
Just sayin?

 :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: REGGAB on September 11, 2009, 11:50:12 PM
Working from what'll be a ten year old memory here Henry.  But I think the 95th anniversary trimmed touring bikes were available as either carbed or Marelli bikes.

I really want to believe that, but every piece of data I collect, whether it be through exhaustive research or interview of known historical experts, results in information telling me the PBJ tourers are Marelli bikes.......however this does not hold true with the 1998 model year tourers that are not outfitted with anniversary colors.  Plenty of those are equipped with CV carbs as well as Marelli FI.
I will certainly welcome evidence to the contrary, but even if there are factory carbed PBJ FLTRs out there, I'd imagine there are very few with only 800 production models made.
Nonetheless, I'm not quite ready to make this acquisition just yet based on family events of this calendar year.  It will happen in due time.  For this one, I have plenty of patience and will search for the "right" bike.  I'll know it when I find it.
Still think this is the best looking machine H-D ever produced.
Title: Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
Post by: Twolanerider on September 12, 2009, 12:21:37 AM
I really want to believe that, but every piece of data I collect, whether it be through exhaustive research or interview of known historical experts, results in information telling me the PBJ tourers are Marelli bikes.......however this does not hold true with the 1998 model year tourers that are not outfitted with anniversary colors.  Plenty of those are equipped with CV carbs as well as Marelli FI.
I will certainly welcome evidence to the contrary, but even if there are factory carbed PBJ FLTRs out there, I'd imagine there are very few with only 800 production models made.
Nonetheless, I'm not quite ready to make this acquisition just yet based on family events of this calendar year.  It will happen in due time.  For this one, I have plenty of patience and will search for the "right" bike.  I'll know it when I find it.
Still think this is the best looking machine H-D ever produced.


I'd never researched it at all. Just thought I remembered having hands on a carbed 95th Road King before.  Fortunately only took a moment to find what seemed good verification one way or the other.  Looks like all the touring bikes were FI bikes within the 95th anniversary model set.  Following is from a 30 August, 1997 MoCo press release a quick search dug up.  Looked like the kind of thing being released to the rags so likely reprinted through many sources after initial release:


Milwaukee - Limited Edition 1998 Harleys will be available in eight differant models this year, they include: XL1200C -Sportster 1200 Custom FXDWG -Dyna Wide Glide FLSTF -Fat Boy FLSTS -Heritage Springer FLHTCI -Electr GLide Classic FLHTCUI -Ultra Classic Electra Glide(injected) FLHRCI -Road King Classic (injected) FLTRI -Road Glide The color scheme is two-tone Midnight Red and Champagne Pearl. Fuel tanks are adorned with the raised Cloisonne'emblems.