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Author Topic: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?  (Read 24802 times)

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North Georgia Hawg

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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2013, 08:20:53 AM »

Mayor and Ken (North Georgia Hawg) "Thank You" very much in the explanation of TTS I (black) and TTS II (blue) differences.  The purchase of TTS II is in my near future. 

About the old TTS, I will try to locate the owner and give it to him.  Again, not sure why the salesperson told me to keep it only that he said it would be a liability to them.  Maybe the dealership was looking at if the new owner needed anything done to the V-Rod this would be an incentive ($$$) in charging for a replacement CPU benefiting the dealership.

Again thanks for all the responses as this info will benefit others also.

You're welcome. I just like to try to get the facts out there.

There seem to be lots of misconceptions and distortions regarding various aspects of the TTS MasterTune... in my opinion perpetrated in large measure by those who stand to benefit financially from people using other tuning solutions.

I don't make a penny off of selling anything related to motorcycles... I am not in the business. My opinions about various products are based on my own experience and research, conversations with knowledgeable people, etc. I always strive to learn the TRUTH - whatever that turns out to be - and help disseminate it.

And it's easy to tell when a salesperson is lying... their lips are moving!

Ken
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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2013, 09:13:07 AM »

You're welcome SStuner.  The cable to hook the HD06 VCI to your computer is different than the HD04, so keep that in mind when you are getting ready to buy of you are planning on doing some or all of the tuning yourself.  The new VCI uses a USB connection without needing the serial port adapter.  TTS sells the cable system as a package, but you can also just pick up the USB adapter cable if you already have the J1850 to serial cable for connecting the VCI to your bike.  The cable needed for attaching to a computer is a cable like what you would use to connect a printer to a computer.  I've seen these cable at Wally World in the computer section. 

If you have never tuned a lambda cal before (which is what your '12 touring is), I think you will find it much easier than TPS based tuning. 

There seem to be lots of misconceptions and distortions regarding various aspects of the TTS MasterTune... in my opinion perpetrated in large measure by those who stand to benefit financially from people using other tuning solutions.
  I don't think it's always that, sometimes people just like what they are used too and think everyone else should like it as well.  I also think that there's also going to be cases were some personal issues prevent folks from recommending some products due to past bad experiences (whether with product or people associated with the product).  When it comes to tuning systems on the market today, there are lots of very good choices, so I think we should expect various opinions as a norm.   
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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2013, 09:39:08 AM »

The cable needed for attaching to a computer is a cable like what you would use to connect a printer to a computer.  I've seen these cable at Wally World in the computer section. 

 

If I may toss a caution here. There are good cables and inferior ones as well. A cheap cable will, with a doubt, interfere with the data recording process via slow bits or connector disconnect.

If you need to purchase the "printer" style USB cable it must be of good to great quality. <-- Speaking with experience here.



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North Georgia Hawg

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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2013, 09:40:02 AM »

You're welcome SStuner.  The cable to hook the HD06 VCI to your computer is different than the HD04, so keep that in mind when you are getting ready to buy of you are planning on doing some or all of the tuning yourself.  The new VCI uses a USB connection without needing the serial port adapter.  TTS sells the cable system as a package, but you can also just pick up the USB adapter cable if you already have the J1850 to serial cable for connecting the VCI to your bike.  The cable needed for attaching to a computer is a cable like what you would use to connect a printer to a computer.  I've seen these cable at Wally World in the computer section.  

If you have never tuned a lambda cal before (which is what your '12 touring is), I think you will find it much easier than TPS based tuning.  
  I don't think it's always that, sometimes people just like what they are used too and think everyone else should like it as well.  I also think that there's also going to be cases were some personal issues prevent folks from recommending some products due to past bad experiences (whether with product or people associated with the product).  When it comes to tuning systems on the market today, there are lots of very good choices, so I think we should expect various opinions as a norm.  

I highly recommend using the TTS USB cable! I have found that "printer quality" cables often will not work properly with the TTS in data capture runs. I have seen data capture simply stop on the monitor right in the middle of a DataMaster run when using a non-TTS USB cable. With the Flight Recorder you would never know its not recording until you got back home and had little or no data to import into VTune. The Flight Recorder also grabs data a lot faster than before, so the cables are even more important now.

 It's well worth the few extra dollars to get the TTS cable set and not have to be concerned with not capturing data reliably.

Opinions, yes... but I think that the TTS gets unfairly bashed, especially on the other forum... I think the TTS is the best flash tuning product out there, and that's why I use it personally on my bike. But I don't bash the PowerVision, SESPT, or others. I just think the TTS is way better... and very soon its lead will widen even more.

Ken
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 06:23:51 AM by North Georgia Hawg »
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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2013, 09:41:39 AM »

If I may toss a caution here. There are good cables and inferior ones as well. A cheap cable will, with a doubt, interfere with the data recording process via slow bits or connector disconnect.

If you need to purchase the "printer" style USB cable it must be of good to great quality. <-- Speaking with experience here.

You squeezed in there on me, Wiz! Sneaky :devil: ...

Ken
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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2013, 09:53:16 AM »

Ken....

The "printer" style USB cable doesn't come into play when using FR.

Only when you use a computer to record will it be an issue with a poor quality cable.


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North Georgia Hawg

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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2013, 10:12:23 AM »

Ken....

The "printer" style USB cable doesn't come into play when using FR.

Only when you use a computer to record will it be an issue with a poor quality cable.


LOL! True... I was thinking about the cable to attach the TTS to the ECM connector... but that one has to be the TTS cable anyway. D'Oh!

Getting more coffee now... brain is apparently not hitting on all cylinders yet this morning...

Ken

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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2013, 10:28:56 AM »

Do either use USB cables direct or adapters to serial cables?
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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 10:48:17 AM »

Do either use USB cables direct or adapters to serial cables?
the HD06 (blue) uses a USB on one side, but it is not the standard usb connection.  The HD04 requires a serial adapter.  Both use the serial to j1850 adapter on the bike side of the dongle. 
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Steve Cole

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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2013, 11:42:21 AM »

The HD-04 (black) was designed way back in 1998 and is a serial input connection. The newer HD-06 (blue) is a true USB device that uses a USB "B" connection. We feel this is the best USB connector for staying connected as do all the printer company's. What you have on the PC side of things is a USB "A" connection and they come loose way to often but they are much lower profile and that's what the PC guys wanted/ needed to fit there package size. Now-days we have the mini USB connections on a lot of devices and they really suck.
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mayor

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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2013, 01:19:01 PM »

Opinions, yes... but I think that the TTS gets unfairly bashed, especially over there in the Forum-Of-Darkness.
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I wouldn’t disagree that there are those that bash the system on that forum (and some is absolutely personally motivated), but I also feel that some of the concerns are justified and only viewed by supporters as being bashing out of misunderstanding the concerns.  I am a proud member of that forum and an admin there.  Yes there are those that will use any area of weakness to try to pour salt in old wounds, but that doesn't mean that all the issues people have with the Mastertune system is just bashing.  That also doesn't mean that the bashing that occurs is just one sided.  There have been plenty of cases where defenders of the product have been the aggressor.  The issue with locking an ECM is a real concern IMO.  Sure some might blow that out of proportion in order to bring concerns about a product for spite, but there have been plenty of documented cases where folks were bitten by this issue that was unaware.  Take the OP’s sold Vrod, if that ecm was locked by the TTS system…then that owner is likely going to find out well after buying that bike.  I don't think the concern that the vtune process limits the available accurate population of the VE tables to something other than full operation mode is a bash.  Having witnessed how lean the heavy throttle can be on some calibrations and still be agreeable to the vtune software, I don't think that's a trumped up bash at all.  I also don't think that the current need to carry a computer for tuning is a trumped up attempt to bash.  Some folks don't even own a laptop, so the fact that you currently need one shouldn't be viewed as an attack when someone brings that up.  I had to replace the hard drive in one of my computers due to an error that occurred from damage from riding around with it strapped to my bike while vtuning.  I would guess that Steve heard the concerns from his customers, which is why the new VCI has on-board recording.  I also think that vtuning blind without a monitor to guide the tuner isn't a trumped up bash either.  The advantage with closed course tuning using some sort of device to see what cells you have hit is a real advantage. I think Steve is combating that concern with a large on-board data storage ability, but there are still going to be some that prefer to have a screen to see exactly what is going on when they are trying to tune the ve cells.  Unless I misunderstood him on a recent post, he has already at least considered the potential for a screen to go with the system in the future

Now with the above statements, one could easily view my opinions as biased against TTS Mastertune system.  Although Steve Cole may not always agree, I've actually been an open supporter of the system since I started using in several years ago.  I think it is a very nice system, and I currently use it on both of my efi bikes.  That won't stop me from giving an unbiased opinion of areas of concern, even if that opinion is unfavorable and in conflict with the opinions of some other people's opinions.  The trouble is some folks are just too biased in their beliefs to see that you can be respectfully  critical of a product, and yet still supportive.  I personally think that the only way to improve a product is to air out the potential negatives.  If you look at some of the changes that Steve has made to his products, I think these aired out issues have been heard by him as well.  He may not have appreciated the way they are/were aired, but I think the products continuous improvement is proof enough that he ultimately understood the concerns.
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North Georgia Hawg

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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2013, 02:04:14 PM »

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I wouldn’t disagree that there are those that bash the system on that forum (and some is absolutely personally motivated), but I also feel that some of the concerns are justified and only viewed by supporters as being bashing out of misunderstanding the concerns.  I am a proud member of that forum and an admin there.  Yes there are those that will use any area of weakness to try to pour salt in old wounds, but that doesn't mean that all the issues people have with the Mastertune system is just bashing.  That also doesn't mean that the bashing that occurs is just one sided.  There have been plenty of cases where defenders of the product have been the aggressor.  The issue with locking an ECM is a real concern IMO.  Sure some might blow that out of proportion in order to bring concerns about a product for spite, but there have been plenty of documented cases where folks were bitten by this issue that was unaware.  Take the OP’s sold Vrod, if that ecm was locked by the TTS system…then that owner is likely going to find out well after buying that bike.  I don't think the concern that the vtune process limits the available accurate population of the VE tables to something other than full operation mode is a bash.  Having witnessed how lean the heavy throttle can be on some calibrations and still be agreeable to the vtune software, I don't think that's a trumped up bash at all.  I also don't think that the current need to carry a computer for tuning is a trumped up attempt to bash.  Some folks don't even own a laptop, so the fact that you currently need one shouldn't be viewed as an attack when someone brings that up.  I had to replace the hard drive in one of my computers due to an error that occurred from damage from riding around with it strapped to my bike while vtuning.  I would guess that Steve heard the concerns from his customers, which is why the new VCI has on-board recording.  I also think that vtuning blind without a monitor to guide the tuner isn't a trumped up bash either.  The advantage with closed course tuning using some sort of device to see what cells you have hit is a real advantage. I think Steve is combating that concern with a large on-board data storage ability, but there are still going to be some that prefer to have a screen to see exactly what is going on when they are trying to tune the ve cells.  Unless I misunderstood him on a recent post, he has already at least considered the potential for a screen to go with the system in the future

Now with the above statements, one could easily view my opinions as biased against TTS Mastertune system.  Although Steve Cole may not always agree, I've actually been an open supporter of the system since I started using in several years ago.  I think it is a very nice system, and I currently use it on both of my efi bikes.  That won't stop me from giving an unbiased opinion of areas of concern, even if that opinion is unfavorable and in conflict with the opinions of some other people's opinions.  The trouble is some folks are just too biased in their beliefs to see that you can be respectfully  critical of a product, and yet still supportive.  I personally think that the only way to improve a product is to air out the potential negatives.  If you look at some of the changes that Steve has made to his products, I think these aired out issues have been heard by him as well.  He may not have appreciated the way they are/were aired, but I think the products continuous improvement is proof enough that he ultimately understood the concerns.


Mayor - I can agree with much of that. No product is perfect, including the TTS. Constructive feedback to vendors is valuable... even if it comes in strongly worded ways.

BUT, the reason I hang out on the CVOHarley forum these days is that it's just much more CIVIL here than on the other forum(s). You don't see the bashing here that you see elsewhere, and threads don't devolve into chit-throwing tussles. Neal and the mods here just won't put up with crap like that... and I like that a lot. HDF is much worse in some ways than HTT is... but that's neither here nor there.

I understand that some people have a concern about the ECM "locking". But it's there for a very good reason - to prevent some Yay-Hoo in a service dept from reflashing the ECM because the Digital Technician says it doesn't understand something it's seeing - thereby zapping the owners tune. I think that's the right approach, frankly... to protect the calibration. But that has caused problems in at least one case I read about, in which the dealer replaced the ECM because of the DT "error", thereby rendering the TTS useless. It's probably happened more that just that one time.

A TTS should always go with the bike when it's sold. It can't be used on any other bike to flash in a cal anyway. This is not an obvious point, however... and many buyers likely don't even think of such a need when they buy a used bike, either privately or from a dealer. I think that the onus to include the TTS in the sale of the bike on which it's been used to tune is on the seller. The OP was given totally BS advice by the salesman, whoever that was... but that wasn't the OP's fault. There are probably many TTS users out there who have not actually used the TTS themselves, but rather have paid for a pro tune where the tuner used the TTS. Thus, the owners may not even be aware of much of anything about the tuning device that was used - much less that it "locks" the ECM, nor even that it marries itself TO that ECM when it's first used to flash in a cal.

So, Seller Beware AND Buyer Beware would both seem to apply to cases such as this.

Ken
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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2013, 03:26:39 PM »


I understand that some people have a concern about the ECM "locking". But it's there for a very good reason - to prevent some Yay-Hoo in a service dept from reflashing the ECM because the Digital Technician says it doesn't understand something it's seeing - thereby zapping the owners tune. I think that's the right approach, frankly... to protect the calibration. But that has caused problems in at least one case I read about, in which the dealer replaced the ECM because of the DT "error", thereby rendering the TTS useless. It's probably happened more that just that one time.

Ken

A little education of the customer, from forum or tuner, goes a long way here.  I try and take the time to educate my customers on what I am tuning their bike with.  Some listen and some don't.  I don't believe the guy working the DT at the dealership will know anything about TTS Lock he sees in the Cal ID spot.  But when he gets a hold of the customer before he sells him the new ECM.  The customer should have a clue, and straighten out the tech.  I had a great opportunity to go to the dealership I tune for a lot.  I got a good education on everything DT, and taught them about TTS lock. 
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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2013, 03:39:53 PM »

A little education of the customer, from forum or tuner, goes a long way here.   I try and take the time to educate my customers on what I am tuning their bike with.  Some listen and some don't.  I don't believe the guy working the DT at the dealership will know anything about TTS Lock he sees in the Cal ID spot.  But when he gets a hold of the customer before he sells him the new ECM.  The customer should have a clue, and straighten out the tech.  I had a great opportunity to go to the dealership I tune for a lot.  I got a good education on everything DT, and taught them about TTS lock. 
I agree completely.  I think taking to time to explain the risks and rewards to anything allows everyone to go into the situation with eyes wide open.  My closest HD dealer (Zepka) tunes with Mastertune as their preferred tuning system, so I don't think it is as big of an issue to some dealers as some would lead people to believe.  I actually have another local dealer that doesn't offer any tuning at all, so they are probably clueless either way...but that's really where its up to the consumer not to be clueless.
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Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2013, 03:52:34 PM »



A TTS should always go with the bike when it's sold. It can't be used on any other bike to flash in a cal anyway. This is not an obvious point, however... and many buyers likely don't even think of such a need when they buy a used bike, either privately or from a dealer. I think that the onus to include the TTS in the sale of the bike on which it's been used to tune is on the seller. The OP was given totally BS advice by the salesman, whoever that was... but that wasn't the OP's fault. There are probably many TTS users out there who have not actually used the TTS themselves, but rather have paid for a pro tune where the tuner used the TTS. Thus, the owners may not even be aware of much of anything about the tuning device that was used - much less that it "locks" the ECM, nor even that it marries itself TO that ECM when it's first used to flash in a cal.

So, Seller Beware AND Buyer Beware would both seem to apply to cases such as this.

Ken

I traded my Ultra Limited just 6 weeks ago.  I included the TTS, along with the cables, in the tourpack.  Since I also removed the air cleaner and aftermarket exhaust, I offered to re-flash the ECM back to stock.....the Dealer refused.  Never even occurred to me to keep the TTS as I cannot imagine what use it would be, other than a very poor paper weight.
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