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CVO Technical => General CVO discussion => Topic started by: Twolanerider on May 12, 2011, 10:41:18 AM

Title: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Twolanerider on May 12, 2011, 10:41:18 AM
On a 2011 SESG.  After a handlebar change the check engine light is staying on and it's throwing codes:

P1510 Throttle actuator control limited
P2138 Twistgrop sensor correlation error


I don't have service/diagnostic manuals for anything new enough to be TBW.  And there's only so much one can intuit trying to troubleshoot.  I don't even know, for example, if the "correlation error" is a correlation of voltage across the TGS or a correlation of TGS position versus throttle position.

With the exception of the light and error code the bike actually runs fine.  It's not nor has it been in limp mode.  All the connectors that were disassembled to run the wires in the bars have been rechecked and all are assembled correctly.  It's been running about three weeks since the handlebars were changed.  Just now taking time to get back to it and try to sort it out.

No wires needed to be extended.  So no impedance changes from bad solders or other extensions.  At time of install it all seemed a relatively straightforward installation actually.  Grip sensor was handled delicately and slid in and out with only minimal effort.

Someone with experience with the newer bikes chime in please.  What is the most likely culprit and solution for a bike that seems to run fine but is throwing these codes and has been doing so since the twist grip sensor was removed from one set of handlebars and installed in another as part of a bar swap?

Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: hdbrad03 on May 12, 2011, 02:15:34 PM
Basically there are two sensors in the throttle. They are 0-5 volt so at idle one reads 0 and the other reads 5 volts. As the throttle is moved each sensor voltages changes but added together they will = 5 volts.

So if one of the sensors runs wild it throws a code. Are you sure the wire were inserted correctly? Like 5 volt and sensor return crossed?

By chance did you do any adjusting on the sensor end plastic piece that meshes with the grip if so may have thrown off the calibration?


 :bananarock:  :bananarock:

    Brad

Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Twolanerider on May 12, 2011, 02:51:10 PM
Basically there are two sensors in the throttle. They are 0-5 volt so at idle one reads 0 and the other reads 5 volts. As the throttle is moved each sensor voltages changes but added together they will = 5 volts.

So if one of the sensors runs wild it throws a code. Are you sure the wire were inserted correctly? Like 5 volt and sensor return crossed?

By chance did you do any adjusting on the sensor end plastic piece that meshes with the grip if so may have thrown off the calibration?


 :bananarock:  :bananarock:

    Brad



Thanks Brad.  Just got a printout of the P2138 diagnostic procedure from Jim after he checked in to offer a hand also.  May be a few days now before we get back to it so will gladly bank any insights collected in the interim.

The two sides of the sensor aren't crossed.  Have checked and double checked.  The OE harness wrap covers internal wraps that separate each trio of wires.  One trio with a yellow internal wrap and one trio with (if I remember correctly) a white wrap.  Nothing crossed there.

Brian (Hogasm) also mentioned in a phone call this morning that he's seen an instance of the TGS housing itself shorting against the handlebar.  With an accurate low voltage meter I'm getting nothing when measuring at the bars.  So no leakage nor short from the TGS housing itself nor the wires.

Jim mentioned this morning that some of these throttle grip sensors have a harness that includes a small connector that is easily damaged.  I didn't think this sensor had that connector.  But a call and email from yet another site watcher made it clear I could be mistaken there.  Was sent a picture showing an exploded view of that version of the sensor and the micro-connector was shown to be inside the harness wrap that is pulled through the handlebars.  It could be there and I would have missed it as it would've been out of sight and I'd not have known to look.

In that same message I was told the TGS with the small and delicate connector is 32310-08 and that a different version of the TGS that is more robust and does not include the small connector in mid-harness is 32305-08A.  Should later effort end up showing, despite the bike seeming to run ok, that the grip sensor is the problem what I'd also like to confirm is that the two versions of the grip sensor are interchangeable.
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: hdbrad03 on May 12, 2011, 06:24:01 PM
My sensor had a 3rd connector that was not used. I assumed it may be the input for Harley Heated grip??? I assume this because the Ultra's have heated grips so the heat source would have to be in the TBW Asymbly.

 :bananarock: :bananarock:

    Brad
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: aclass on May 12, 2011, 07:24:58 PM
I had the exact same issue TwoLane,  I could clear the codes, watch the throttle position on the SEST software go from 0-100% as I twisted the grip but the codes would always come back.   All the wires ohmed out just fine.
Went ahead and paid the $90 bucks for a new one,  codes gone and all is well.

Good luck!
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: grc on May 12, 2011, 07:28:47 PM

Don, my understanding is that you are definitely not alone with this issue.  Since 2008, there have been a lot of reports on various forums about the exact same failure after a bar change.  The parts are obviously way too fragile.

The two different part numbers have to do with external wiring versus internal wiring.  I believe the way it works is 32310-08 is for internally wired bars, and 32305-08A is for externally wired bars.  The internally wired part has longer wires, while the externally routed part has shorter wires and a separate jumper harness.  And there have been reports about a small green connector in the middle of the harness cracking and causing this problem.  Some have reported repairing satisfactorily with solder, others have reported just replacing the sensor.  If this turns out to be your problem, might be worth a little solder attempt first.  I think the sensors sell for $80 to $90.


Jerry
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Twolanerider on May 15, 2011, 02:02:18 AM
My sensor had a 3rd connector that was not used. I assumed it may be the input for Harley Heated grip??? I assume this because the Ultra's have heated grips so the heat source would have to be in the TBW Asymbly.

 :bananarock: :bananarock:

    Brad

This one does also Brad.  A two pin Deutsch that goes nowhere.  Have yet to find a reference to what it's for. 



I had the exact same issue TwoLane,  I could clear the codes, watch the throttle position on the SEST software go from 0-100% as I twisted the grip but the codes would always come back.   All the wires ohmed out just fine.
Went ahead and paid the $90 bucks for a new one,  codes gone and all is well.

Good luck!

That's what Travis's bike is doing.  Could watch the TGS and TPS positions settings change in real time on the Twin Tec scan tool software.  Nothing looks wrong.  And with an ohm meter this one also shows no opens nor shorts and there's no voltage measured to the bar.  But it obviously doesn't like something.

Have reviewed the trouble shooting page that Jim sent.  Turns out some of it I'd already done.  That combined with the old axiom "it's usually the last thing you messed with" makes me think the TGS sensor is the culprit. 
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Twolanerider on May 15, 2011, 02:14:57 AM
Don, my understanding is that you are definitely not alone with this issue.  Since 2008, there have been a lot of reports on various forums about the exact same failure after a bar change.  The parts are obviously way too fragile.

The two different part numbers have to do with external wiring versus internal wiring.  I believe the way it works is 32310-08 is for internally wired bars, and 32305-08A is for externally wired bars.  The internally wired part has longer wires, while the externally routed part has shorter wires and a separate jumper harness.  And there have been reports about a small green connector in the middle of the harness cracking and causing this problem.  Some have reported repairing satisfactorily with solder, others have reported just replacing the sensor.  If this turns out to be your problem, might be worth a little solder attempt first.  I think the sensors sell for $80 to $90.


Jerry

That's in line with what further homework has suggested Jerry.  Have seen other references to the micro-connector you mention.  This exploded illustration is what shows up for the SESG and as 32310-08.  If that connector is in this one it must have been inside the plastic wire sheath as I don't remember seeing it when this was all apart a few weeks ago. 

This sensor is definitely six wires out of the handlebar (not counting the other two in the unused Deutsch connector).  This illustrations shows only two connections on the upstream side of the micro-connector.  So if pulling the wires through the bars damaged this small connector there is (apparently) more going on at that connection than a simple direct connection.
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Twolanerider on May 15, 2011, 02:22:25 AM
This is the illustration of the other sensor.  Fitment example of a Road King.  No small, and apparently delicate, connector and the six expected leads in a straight run from the sensor to the connector.

If the small connector on the other sensor is that delicate I've got to be concerned the new one suffer the same fate when being pulled through the bars.  Especiially if the attempt was made with the right hand harness already inside the handlebar.

Have been told the sensors are interchangeable.  If the dealer has both in stock to compare against will have to consider the options.
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: aclass on May 15, 2011, 08:29:01 PM
TwoLane,   you prolly already know this, but the 2 pin connector is for Heated Grips.  The six pin is the TGS assy.   But my experience is only with the sensor for internal wiring so I cant speak for the unit with the green connector inside the bar that is used for bikes that come with external handle bar wiring.
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: les.h.cleary@hotmail.com on July 09, 2017, 11:30:13 AM
 >:( I have the same problem with the P1510 P2138 showing up after a handle bar change. I had planned on a 5 hour trip tomorrow. It is safe to ride until I get back? Someone please respond!!!!  :-X
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Twolanerider on July 09, 2017, 12:48:12 PM
>:( I have the same problem with the P1510 P2138 showing up after a handle bar change. I had planned on a 5 hour trip tomorrow. It is safe to ride until I get back? Someone please respond!!!!  :-X

For whatever help it might be in my case I had screwed up the reassembly.  Don't remember which two but had reassembled one of the connectors with two pins misplaced.  Triple check your plugs compared to what they were to begin with. I had both taken a picture and had a schematic in hand and looked at it some uncounted number of times and still had a pair of crossed. Finally saw it with one more look.
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: les.h.cleary@hotmail.com on July 09, 2017, 01:34:50 PM
I guess in your case, the answer is no.
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: aclass on July 09, 2017, 09:19:34 PM
Twolane, I had this happen to me when I changed my bars. I could hook up the software and watch the TGS go from 0-100% as well as the bike idling fine but there was something that happened in the wire  pull that caused a changed in the resistance upsetting the ECM.  $100 later and a new TGS and the code went away.
Changing handlebars will try ones religion... :'(
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Twolanerider on July 09, 2017, 10:12:53 PM
Twolane, I had this happen to me when I changed my bars. I could hook up the software and watch the TGS go from 0-100% as well as the bike idling fine but there was something that happened in the wire  pull that caused a changed in the resistance upsetting the ECM.  $100 later and a new TGS and the code went away.
Changing handlebars will try ones religion... :'(


Amen to that.  I assumed I'd damaged that touchy little grip sensor.  Actually had a new one in hand when pulled it back apart to finally fix it.  Was lucky in that whatever pair I'd crossed the only thing that didn't work was the cruise control.  So pulled it down again to swap the sensor and did one last compare to my original pics and schematic.  Only then with fresh eyes and  few days in between looks did I notice the pair of wires back in place incorrectly.

Feeding all that crap inside of handlebars sucks  :huepfenlol2: .
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: HDMIKETN64 on July 11, 2017, 11:23:46 PM
Twolane, I had this happen to me when I changed my bars. I could hook up the software and watch the TGS go from 0-100% as well as the bike idling fine but there was something that happened in the wire  pull that caused a changed in the resistance upsetting the ECM.  $100 later and a new TGS and the code went away.
Changing handlebars will try ones religion... :'(

Damn! This thread brings back memories of when I installed the 14" Chizeled H-D bars on my 2015 RGS. I damaged the TGS pulling the wires through the bars. I'm not even going to attempt it again. Try one's religion? Indeed!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Twolanerider on July 11, 2017, 11:28:33 PM
Little threads like this is why the search utility is so valuable for those that will use it (and when it works well).  Someone fighting some issue and can, hopefully, find a discussion that might help.  I've been lucky that way a few times.
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Lars on July 20, 2017, 12:26:40 PM
I've, (Knock on wood), successfully pulled the wires on three different handlebar changes on three different bikes.
The one thing that I will never attempt again is replacing the original black handlebar switch covers to the HD chrome ones.
It's easy to get the black ones off but getting the HD chrome ones to snap into place is a real nightmare. Never again.
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: OBB on April 07, 2019, 04:11:27 PM
Bringing this back alive. Just change the bars on my 15 SERGU and have the p1510 code, not cruise and no heated grips but I think I cleared that one. Here goes to tearing it back apart to see where I screwed it up. Ugh

Sent from my boring Droid phone.

Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Twolanerider on April 07, 2019, 07:19:51 PM
Bringing this back alive. Just change the bars on my 15 SERGU and have the p1510 code, not cruise and no heated grips but I think I cleared that one. Here goes to tearing it back apart to see where I screwed it up. Ugh

Sent from my boring Droid phone.


Good luck getting it sorted.  I know I looked at this one 13.6 dozen times and still never saw the pair I'd reassembled incorrectly.  Hope yours is no great a problem than this was  :drink: .
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: OBB on April 07, 2019, 07:49:53 PM

Good luck getting it sorted.  I know I looked at this one 13.6 dozen times and still never saw the pair I'd reassembled incorrectly.  Hope yours is no great a problem than this was  :drink: .
For the life of me, I couldn't get that big 6 pin connector taken apart and I've done those about a dozen times. I ended up taking apart the two connections up at the pigtail off the sensor, pulled from the bottom end up and then the harness off the switchpack from top to bottom. Inserted the TGW pigtails in the end of the bar and out of the hole where the SP harness comes in, reconnected them and stuffed them back in the bars. Heated grips aren't working either. I'm off on Thursday. Will take it apart and check them all out. I hope it's something simple. Luckily these new KST bars are almost simple to wire as the wires from up top come out of the bottom of the bars above the top of the forks and then along the bottom crossbar into the cluster. They may be pinched where they exit the bars and the top of the cover over the front forks too. Not any room there due to the plastic cover that's tied into the back side of the gauge cluster.
Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: OBB on April 11, 2019, 01:37:42 PM
Whaddya know. Damn wire pulled from the plug and won't stay in it. $90 for a new Grip sensor vs my time and labor to cut it out and solder them all. $90 is cheap for me. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190411/978e91cdd5bfd528935842ff8c662dc5.jpg)

Sent from my boring Droid phone.

Title: Re: P1510 and P2138 after a handlebar change. What'd I likely screw up?
Post by: Twolanerider on April 11, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
Good catch and $90 is cheap compared to some of the mistakes we could make.  Hell, it's even cheap compared to having the dealer do the labor.  So you're still money ahead :2vrolijk_21: .