Topic: Rocker box gaskets-FXR (Read 42512 times)

RedFXR2 · « **on:** September 29, 2004, 11:30:59 AM »

Has anyone replaced their rocker box gaskets (EVO motor, FXR frame)?

hatchetjak · « **Reply #1 on:** October 01, 2004, 10:23:57 PM »

I have the same problem on my FXR4. I replaced the front gaskets with no real trouble, (the rear was not leaking at the time). You will have to remove the rocker arm assembly to remove the lower cover and replace the lower gasket. That is where mine was leaking. I would advise you not to use the oem gaskets from Harley, they are paper thin. JIMS gaskets are thicker and have a silicone strip built in the gasket...much better. My rear rocker box is now leaking, but I haven't tackled it yet... think I'll wait till riding season slows a bit, but I think you are right about dropping the engine down to get to the bolts. Let me know how it goes, I would appreciate the voice of experience. HJ

RedFXR2 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2004, 04:26:45 PM »

Jack, your situation and mine sound identical. I received my manual and it says to remove the pushrods and rocker arms to get to the bottom piece--which is, of course, where my leak is. Like yours, my rear cylinder isn't leaking yet, either, but I figure that if the front one is, ther rear one can't be far behind. I've been warned about HD gaskets, although they're apparently much better than they once were. Folks tell me to use Jims or James gaskets. Since I don't have a bike lift I may let my local independent shop tell me how much they'd charge for this and make a decision.

Thanks for the response.

RedFXR2 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2004, 07:12:15 PM »

Quote

I have the same problem on my FXR4. I replaced the front gaskets with no real trouble, (the rear was not leaking at the time).

clhtexfxr · « **Reply #4 on:** February 09, 2005, 03:35:30 PM »

Well Men,I have tackled this problem with the bottom gasket leaking on the back jug. I'am not going to say it was easy and maybe not the most professional way. But this is what I done. And it worked. The allen head bolt that's on the back with little, to no clearence can be removed. Take a pair of small channel locks back the bolt out a little at a time. Then take a good flat file start shaving a little bit at a time , until you have shaved a good 1/8"+ off the top of the allen bolt. The top cover can be removed then you can go to work on the rest of it. I went back with Harley gaskets no problem so far. Everything can be torqued back. The only thing is you can't go back with the same allen head bolts on the left side. I went back with some flat hex head harden steel bolts. Had to shorten them a little. But it worked and you can't see because the gas tank covers them. About 3,500+ miles no leaks runs great. Cost about 50 bucks, 6 to 7 hours and a few beers.

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 27, 2008, 06:34:39 PM »

Helllo everyone.....

Well I was rereading some old threads and thought this information might help someone in the future, as I had to replace all the way down to the rocker "cover" / "base" gaskets in my 1999 FXR2 in June of 2005 after first purchasing my bike:

I too have incorporated the one piece metal James gasket with the bead for the location of the rocker cover gasket or as some refer to it as the rocker base gasket. I haven't been all the way down to the cylinder base gasket but if I were to I would also use the james metal base gasket. I might turn to a metal MLS cometic gasket for the cylinder head perhaps using either a .030 or .040. I however have read good things about the Geninue James metal cylinder head gasket as well. Where I would deviate from the James Genuine Gaskets back to the OEM gaskets would be located within the rocker boxes themselves, the rubber (neoprene) upper, lower, and inner rocker gaskets along with the washers which are used to keep the rocker covers secured. Personal experience with the Geniune James "rubber / neoprene" gasket resulted in a upper rocker gasket failure, although I will say that James did stand behind their product and provided a complete replacement kit for both cylinders free of charge and even asked me to return the "failed" gasket so they might determine the reason....never heard anything from them. I will just say that I have to agree with the historical comments that I have read on other web sites on this topic that the OEM "rubber / neoprene" rocker gaskets seem to be better designed to fit the "channels" that they must align with inside the rockers. I specifically and individually found this too be true as well. Also "historical" evidence points to making sure one should place "hylomar" or "aviation gasket cement" very lightly covering the metal cylinder base gasket, the cylinder head gasket and finally the rocker base / rocker cover gasket. When I did my "gasket" repair in 05 I at the location of the rocker base/cover gasket it I placed "hylomar" upon it and I have had no issues.

A Photo of aviation gasket cement is provided below an EXCELLENT product as well, it can be found at NAPA. I use this product often times in place of blue loc tite and have done so for over 3 years now....just an excellent product....I use it to keep screws/bolts from gnalling, it never hardens or get's "stringy" always remaining flexible:

RedFXR2 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 28, 2008, 09:38:53 AM »

Just for closure, since I started this thread waaaaaaay back in '04--my top rocker box cover plates were leaking. First the front and then the back.

I bought a scissors jack out of a junkyard (mine's from a Honda Accord, just get one that folds low enough to get under the bike) and used it to lower the engine in the frame for access to my rocker boxes. Slide the jack under the motor, raise it to engage some weight, remove the front engine mount and then lower the motor with the jack, using the rear two mounts as a pivot point. I used HD rocker box gaskets and discovered that my top plates were warped enough to prevent sealing. Since the original top covers were scratched up rather badly from someone before me trying to access them without lowering the motor, I bought two new ones, which were also warped new in the box

. So, I used 220 grit sandpaper on a granite countertop and sanded the new ones flat. This also removes the chrome from the gasket sealing area. Put in the new gaskets and it's been oil dry since.

osseobob · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2008, 11:53:43 AM »

Hey Red,
I had that problem 5 years ago, had a local pro bike shop replace the gaskets for me. Only to have them leak again 3 weeks later. Boy was I pissed. That shop promised to fix the prob but later the owner wound up in jail so I was SOL. So I had my local HD shop do the next repail. apparently Harley had new special gaskets. Well I now have 32k on the bike and they have never leaked since. I do most of my own maintenance but for that repair I am glad I let the HD shop handle it.

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #8 on:** August 08, 2008, 11:18:39 AM »

Quote from: RedFXR2 on April 28, 2008, 09:38:53 AM

Just for closure, since I started this thread waaaaaaay back in '04--my top rocker box cover plates were leaking. First the front and then the back.

I bought a scissors jack out of a junkyard (mine's from a Honda Accord, just get one that folds low enough to get under the bike) and used it to lower the engine in the frame for access to my rocker boxes. Slide the jack under the motor, raise it to engage some weight, remove the front engine mount and then lower the motor with the jack, using the rear two mounts as a pivot point. I used HD rocker box gaskets and discovered that my top plates were warped enough to prevent sealing. Since the original top covers were scratched up rather badly from someone before me trying to access them without lowering the motor, I bought two new ones, which were also warped new in the box . So, I used 220 grit sandpaper on a granite countertop and sanded the new ones flat. This also removes the chrome from the gasket sealing area. Put in the new gaskets and it's been oil dry since.

Thanks for posting this up ....
I have a fxr4 candy tangerine (will post up pics later)
My rocker box bottom gaskets have a small leak, both cyl

I'm ready to put SE heads on the bike and have been struggling with how to do this for awhile.

I have one question for you .... you have an fxr2 ? and is there a stabilizer bar on the top of the engine, attached to the frame ?
there is on my bike .... looks as though I not only need to remove the front motor mount, but must also disconnect this bar

Thanks in advance for any help !

Mike

RedFXR2 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 08, 2008, 03:18:14 PM »

Quote from: fxr4mikey on August 08, 2008, 11:18:39 AM

I have one question for you .... you have an fxr2 ? and is there a stabilizer bar on the top of the engine, attached to the frame ?
there is on my bike .... looks as though I not only need to remove the front motor mount, but must also disconnect this bar?

This has been quite a while ago but I don't think the top heim joint must be removed in order to lower the engine for rocker box access. It can simply pivot at each end when the motor movers down on the rear mounts. I think. But if it must be removed, it's not hard. You may need to remove the coil for access.

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 08, 2008, 04:48:02 PM »

I want to agree with RedFXR2's reflections......and just another thought on this as well...when I did my rocker box gasket repairs I only loosened and dealt with the front engine mount to allow me the needed clearance to get to the rest of the project.

You may find it helpful to have a factory authorized service manual available to you for this project, I believe this topic will be specifically addressed within the service manual......if you have one follow the suggested steps if you don't have one you can acquire them on ebay. Elvislee under a recent thread has now provided the HD part numbers that are each associated with the parts book, service manual, and owners manual for each of the three "CVO" FXR's. You will want a "factory" "authorized" edition of the Service Manual specific to your bike. You are going to need a service manual for the rest of what you are doing as well....

Keep asking questions if you need further assistance....someone here can help I am sure of it!!!

Regards,

Tim

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #11 on:** August 09, 2008, 07:47:51 AM »

Quote from: FXR2evo99 on August 08, 2008, 04:48:02 PM

I want to agree with RedFXR2's reflections......and just another thought on this as well...when I did my rocker box gasket repairs I only loosened and dealt with the front engine mount to allow me the needed clearance to get to the rest of the project.

You may find it helpful to have a factory authorized service manual available to you for this project, I believe this topic will be specifically addressed within the service manual......if you have one follow the suggested steps if you don't have one you can acquire them on ebay. Elvislee under a recent thread has now provided the HD part numbers that are each associated with the parts book, service manual, and owners manual for each of the three "CVO" FXR's. You will want a "factory" "authorized" edition of the Service Manual specific to your bike. You are going to need a service manual for the rest of what you are doing as well....

Keep asking questions if you need further assistance....someone here can help I am sure of it!!!

Regards,

Tim

Tim - Thanks for your help. I do have the parts manual for the FXR4 (part no. 99429-00) and the service manual (part no. 99480-99) which is really the FXR3 service manual.
Perhaps I need the FXR4 supplement because I've been looking through the service manual and I haven't found any place in the manual where it describes how to remove the rocker box covers. Well, I haven't found any place in the manual that describes how to access the left rear rocker box bolt on the rear cylinder.

Do you, or does anyone else, know of a page reference in the service manual that describes how to access the left rear rocker box bolt on the rear cylinder. If not, that's ok, I'm going to try the method that has been posted here, which is WAY more help than what I've gotten from some of the local service techs.

Thanks to everyone for their input and posts !!

Mike

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 09, 2008, 02:45:35 PM »

I do have the parts manual for the FXR4 (part no. 99429-00) and the service manual (part no. 99480-99) which is really the FXR3 [actually this also is the Service Manual for the FXR2 as well] service manual.

Perhaps I need the FXR4 supplement because I've been looking through the service manual and I haven't found any place in the manual where it describes how to remove the rocker box covers. Well, I haven't found any place in the manual that describes how to access the left rear rocker box bolt on the rear cylinder.

Do you, or does anyone else, know of a page reference in the service manual that describes how to access the left rear rocker box bolt on the rear cylinder. If not, that's ok, I'm going to try the method that has been posted here.

Mike~~~~

Alrighty 2 hours of research later and another hour to figure out how to put this accurately in text, here we go.......lol.....I "too" sat down with my FXR2 & FXR3 Service Manual and now I remember why I felt it was so poorly written. To digress here a moment, when I brought my FXR2 home after purchasing it [I purchased mine in June of 2005] I had some issues with rocker box gaskets leaking as well as a rear cylinder head gasket leak since the bike obviously hadn't been ridden that much....so the gaskets were most likely "dried out".....anyway my point is I had to go into both rocker boxes and I replaced all of the gaskets all the way down to the cylinder head gasket as well for both cylinders even though the front was having no issues....with manual in hand it really wasn't that much help. So now that I have sat down with the manual and processed how I did it....here is what I would do....there of course may be a better way....but this is at least my way...

The FXR4 supplement will not be of any benefit to you for this "particular" project/task, as the supplement addresses primarily the wiring changes for the speedo/odometer, as well as the front fork changes with the dual discs, and brakes since they are different as well. So the supplement is addressing those issues.....what you are experiencing is that the "Tech" writing for the cvo FXR's was poorly written in some areas....but I suppose they are assuming that if one is working on these bikes they must have some know how....however, I still have a 2003 Dyna Low Rider Service Manual [which while I no longer own the bike I have found the manual to still be valuable to in some practical applications for both the FXR and my RKC] as well as my 2002 Touring Manual for a 2002 RKC [which I still own] to be much better written and detailed in explaining certain aspects....much more so than the FXR2/FXR3 Service Manual. So rest assured it's not you missing something within the Service Manual, it's that it's not in there.....and in fact if you read carefully the only way they really review working on the rocker boxes is with the "ENGINE REMOVED FROM THE BIKE" what the frick is that all about....lol...as if that is "PRACTICAL"......ok so enough venting....onward.....

(continued)

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 09, 2008, 02:46:49 PM »

(continued from above)

At the time of me doing this work, my buddy took his FXR3 in to our local indy mechanic to also have a cylinder head gasket replaced. So I know what I am about to say has a different methodology as well, but I am not familiar with it.

1) You don't have to but I strongly suggest removing the gas tank...I say you don't have to because the indy mechanic said he didn't remove my buddies to repair his rear cylinder gasket leak.....The indy also owned an earlier model FXR at the time and told me that he drilled his bike's frame area just above the rear left cylinder 3/16" hex head screw to remove it more easily apparently this is what some FXR owners do...I am not sure how often it has been done in the past but obviously it was something that indeed was done...must have been "old school"...lol....well of course I "ain't" drillin into my frame....just because it's quicker to do so....but I bet you know what I am talking about seeing the room that you have. Ok so I say remove the tank.....for a couple of reasons, if you aren't an indy mechanic...and I know your not or you wouldn't be asking these questions....we have more of a "visual" interest in "seeing" things compared to those guys since it's always about speed for them. So remove the tank, this will give you a wider and more direct view to what's going on....it will add time to the job and so forth....you could prop up the tank by putting a tennis ball underneath the rear of the tank where it bolts below the seat to the frame but you still won't be able to see directly "into" what you are working on which may not be a good thing since we need all the help we can get, right? lol....well @ least I do.... Once the tank is removed now you have more room to work.

2) remove your exhaust system especially if you are going to be around the cam chest for any reason.

3) As RedFXR2 mentions remove the the front engine mount as well....it rotates the engine just enough to provide a bit more room for the rear cylinder upper rocker arm cover 3/16" hex head screws.....once the engine mount is removed now you have all the access you are going to get....BUT BUT BUT...lol before removing the engine mount and lowering the engine via the jack, make sure you get a substantial rag to protect your frame when the engine moves and will eventually rest against the front of the frame as it is lowered.

3) There is NO PAGE reference for addressing how to remove the rear cylinder upper arm rocker cover, it doesn't exist. They don't talk about what tool to use or anything.

So here are your options:

You either cut down a 3/16" hex head wrench until there is barely a curve and enough straightness and depth remaining to fit into the hex head screw hole. This however does not provide you the opportunity to actually torque upon tightening.....I must admit though you may just be happy to get it removed and tightened and practically decidiing that you will "estimate" the torque value for this particular upper rocker arm cover screw based upon all the others you will use the torque wrench with and not worry about "torquing" it precisely.....I am sure many have subscribed to this action over the years...lol....so you wouldn't be the first....but if you are determined to properly "torque" here is another option.....One of the techinicans @ my local Harley Davidson Dealership actually designed and machined a "tool" that has a 16mm [I think the mechanic must have been messin with everyone to make the outside diameter 16mm instead of 5/8" lol] outer 6 pt head with a 3/16" hex head machined into the bottom of it which allows it to "drop" on to the 3/16" hex head upper rocker arm cover screw.....which then allows you to get a open end 16mm wrench and to loosen it that way, BUT because of the depth of a regular open end 16mm wrench you might find that you would need to also "thin" the depth of that wrench as well....essentially when you get this "tool" you say great now I can get it on the 3/16" hex head screw but now how do I get the open end 16mm" wrench in the limiting space you have between the top of the upper rocker box arm cover and the botton of the frame to remove the 3/16" hex head screw. So you "may" find that making the tool a bit thinner could prove to be beneficial. NOW, then to tighten what can you do...the open end 16mm" wrench that you have modified to loosen the upper rocker arm cover screw to begin with doesn't afford you the ability to actually use it to torque....unless you take the other end of that open end wrench and weld on an adaptor to attach to your torque wrench... OR you could get a 16mm" open end crows foot extension to be able to properly torque the hex head but it too would need to be long enough to give you room to properly work your torque wrench and it would need to also be thin enough on the other end to fit properly as I just mentioned above. At the end of the day it's complicated....and when you don't do it as often as the every day mechanics it's even more cumbersome. I have worked with this particular tool that I mentioned above...and found that I had to thin the tool a bit more as the outer hex head was a bit too tall....so with some quick grinding it worked....So like I said, you have a couple of choices....and they are quite limiting....

(continue)

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 09, 2008, 02:47:14 PM »

(continued from above)

Another option which might be available to you and would take you in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DIRECTION would be to check into the feasablity of whether or not the rocker box upper arm cover screws for a "Twin Cam" are the same thread design and length (although if the "Twin Cam" screws are actually longer in theory you could cut to length if needed to properly fasten within the design of the evo engine). So you might ask WHY would I even suggest this as a "potential" option, well that's because the "Twin Cam" upper rocker arm cover screws have a 7/16" 6 pt outside head [remember the evo upper rocker arm cover screws have a "rounded" outside diameter] and also have the 3/16" hex head center hole as well. Now what this does is afford you to use a particular tool made by Snap On which is a 2" extension with an adaptor at one end and a 7/16" closed end wrench on the other end it is part # FRDH141, this tool is pretty expensive I think it's like $25.00 or so....it's expensive for how little it is lol. So now if one were to decide to use the "Twin Cam" upper rocker arm cover bolts you have two ways for either tightening or removing them via a 3/16" internal hex head as well as a 7/16" inch outer 6 pt head. This could obviously provide another solution for those pesky and difficult upper rocker arm cover screws [side note: Just remember if you do opt for this method anytime you add an extension to a torque wrench as long as you are able to put that extension/adapter 90 degrees to the torque wrench there is no "multiplier" involved however if you have to do it straight on then you have to consider that extension is acting a "multiper" and you have to account for that....]

As you can see it's a bit of a delima.....and the Service Manual is no help.....heck all I can tell you is each bolt you remove when going into the rocker boxes you better write down their sizes so you know what the right torque values are when you put everything back together because of the "criptic" nature of the Service Manual...shaking my head the Service Manual is no help with this....as far as I can figure there are 13 bolts/screws per cylinder down to removing the cylinder head and that I can only figure by looking closely at the FXR2 Parts Manual but the FXR3 Parts manual would acknowledge the same thing as well as the FXR4 since all of these bikes have the exact same engine...the differences in these bikes is obviously not the power plant.

If you decide that you want to call the local Harley Davidson shop and order the tool I described above....the hex head 3/16" with 16mm outer 6pt diameter I will provide the name of the dealership and the part number they ascribe to it and their phone number along with price. But before I do....there is another tool they make that will definitely work very well....and I have used it with success with no alterations lol...you know on our evo's we have that Oil Screen Plug you will be able to see what I am referring to if you look in your parts manual under the "crankcase" -gear side page of your FXR4 parts manual. That "Oil Screen Plug" has a thin screw driver slot attached to it...it's really an akward size and with it being a "regular srew driver" type of slot there is no way to torque or really tighten it properly....so either the same technician or one of their other technicians machined a tool with the proper slot size on one end and @ the other end there is a hex head 6 point diameter area that allows you [with this tool] to remove as well as secure this "Oil Screen Plug" while using a socket adapter....it's really a pretty slick tool....but also expensive for what it is....so you can decide if you are interested or if anyone else is for that matter....I hate advertising for this dealership lol rolling my eyes but I don't know of anyone else doing these two tools which have some merit....oh and this is by NO means a 20% Discount Dealership.....lol not in this lifetime.....I do very little buying from here....but they are local to me.....

here is the information:
Thunder Mountain Harley Davidson
Loveland, CO
(970) 493-3137

They have ascribed their own internal part number for these tools and these tools aren't HD made as I said they were designed by one of their technicans....and they offer them for sale...

SW-4 $9.95 rocker Box 3/16" Hex Head Tool <~~~ my description not theirs
SW-5 $10.95 Oil Screen Plug Tool screw driver slot with hex head bottom <~~~~my descripton not theirs

Even though I have provided the descriptions they will know what you are talking about...you can always ask for the Part's Manager whose name is Dave Wheeler...he will know what you are talking about, but most of those guys "SHOULD" know.....lol.

So I am really not sure what real assistance I have provided here......but I tried...lol....since this is obviously something you are currently working on right now....PLEASE come back and post what you actually did and what RESULTS worked best for you....as you may come upon another solution that could benefit us all....and please feel free to keep asking any questions as well if more assistance or further ideas are required.....

Regards,

Tim

Hoist! · « **Reply #15 on:** August 09, 2008, 04:46:04 PM »

Quote from: FXR2evo99 on August 09, 2008, 02:45:35 PM

Alrighty 2 hours of research later and another hour to figure out how to put this accurately in text, here we go

Holy crap Tim! You deserve a friggin' award or something!

Talk about going above and beyond! All that to remove a rocker box too! Man, when I wanna rebuild the motor, we're gonna have to set pages aside for ya!

Great job Tim!:2vrolijk_21:

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #16 on:** August 09, 2008, 11:59:04 PM »

Tim - I can't say THANK YOU enough for all your efforts and the time you spent in providing me with this information.

in my search for a tool that would fit into this space I've found this thing in JP cycles ..

name = ratcheting rocker box cover wrench
part no = 910-879
cost = $39.99

I've also found it in Drag Spec. for like 59.99

I've had one in my hand at a local indy shop. Looks like it will fit, when the engine is drop forward.

I fully understand your description on the toque setting on this one bolt ... I will no doubt just go with the 'feels about right' setting.

I have had the gas tank off 3 times .. not bad getting it off, but it can be a PIA getting it back on by yourself. Getting all the wires to lay flat on the backbone and getting the fuel liine connectors past the wire can be a bit of a challenge sometimes

I expect to remove the exhaust also.

I will be replacing all the upper gaskets, new heads, cometic .030 head gaskets and the both cylinder base gaskets are leaking ... so the cyl. will come off too.

I'll be putting SE heads on, woods w6 cam, tappered co-molly adjustable push rods, new lifters and chrome lifter blocks

I'm a bit nervous ... this will be my first time taking the engine apart .....

I'm leaving on Tue. next week for a 4K mile jaunt. The build is going to happen in Nov/Dec this year.

I will take plenty of pictures and will post up my experience. Maybe it will help someone in the future, like you have me, THANK YOU again, SO MUCH !!!

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 10, 2008, 01:51:19 AM »

Mikey....

UPDATE:

I have been thinking about this tool that you as well as REDFXR2 have mentioned...from JP Cycles....one of the problems with that tool and the cost associated with it, is that all it will do is perhaps "remove" the upper rocker arm cover 3/16" allen head screw but it doesn't assist in actually helping you to secure it via a torque wrench....the "tool" I mentioned above still allows one to get a crow's foot extension.....and I am still thinking about the switching of these "evo" 3/16" allen head screws with the rounded outside diameters to perhaps the "TWIN CAM" screws which offer a 7/16" hex head 6 point outer diameter as well as being inclusive of the internal 3/16" allen head. If these screws are indeed capable of being the right "pitch" and are long enough then implementing them into the evo rocker arm upper cover screw locations will afford one, another option for following a proper torquing procedure.....it's just a thought. Although REDFXR2's offering of what he managed to peform to create some sense of torquing procedure is also a viable option.....I am sure I have pretty well

Thanks for posting the information from JP Cycles sounds like a tool I need to look into having as well....65% of the battle with these bikes is having the right tools, 30% is having forums like this to gain access to sometimes 30-40 people who may have experienced exactly what you are experiencing and having a population of 1,000's that can offer insight at anytime, it's like having a garage full of technicans, and of course the other 5% is a great digital camera, and taking the time to use it before you start and while doing a project.....

Now I have a question have you already purchased the screamin eagle heads?

By the way the photo above the aviation gasket cement could become your next best friend....here is a thread on why I feel it should be at least:

If you like you can click, view, and read about a thread where I offer up the attributes of the product within the thread you will be able to pull up several other threads as well....oh what a tangle web we weave....lol here you go:

http://groups.msn.com/HarleyTechTalk/tc88fathead.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=1344736&ShowDelete=0&CDir=-2

I also have very strong opinions about which gaskets to use when going down to the cylinder base gaskets and which ones to use for the rocker boxes....and where to use hylomar [gasket sealer] if interested let me know I believe I can find the threads where I have offered this information....like I said above I had to go into my FXR2 in June of 05 and my bike has been perfect since doing it.....and at that time I had to do it twice as I had a problem with James Gaskets in certain areas....

Regards,

Tim

RedFXR2 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 10, 2008, 08:27:11 AM »

Quote from: fxr4mikey on August 09, 2008, 11:59:04 PM

in my search for a tool that would fit into this space I've found this thing in JP cycles ..

name = ratcheting rocker box cover wrench
part no = 910-879
cost = $39.99

I've also found it in Drag Spec. for like 59.99

Once you drop the motor you won't need any special wrenches. I used a conventional dog leg allen on mine. I also bought the very wrench you mention--before I realized that even with it, I still had to drop the motor.

Quote from: fxr4mikey on August 09, 2008, 11:59:04 PM

I fully understand your description on the toque setting on this one bolt ... I will no doubt just go with the 'feels about right' setting.

When I did mine, I discovered that fitting a torque wrench on anything but the two front bolts on the front cylinder was impossible. So, using those two, I marked the bolt and rocker box with a tiny corresponding dot using a Sharpie. Then I torqued the bolt to spec from hand tight and marked the bolt again. I then used this measured difference on the rear, inaccessible bolts and nothing stripped and it hasn't leaked since.

Quote from: fxr4mikey on August 09, 2008, 11:59:04 PM

I have had the gas tank off 3 times .. not bad getting it off, but it can be a PIA getting it back on by yourself. Getting all the wires to lay flat on the backbone and getting the fuel liine connectors past the wire can be a bit of a challenge sometimes;

I didn't remove my tank when I replaced the rocker box gaskets. Since you are going farther, it might be a good thing just to not worry about nicking it with tools or parts.

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #19 on:** August 10, 2008, 08:59:45 AM »

Quote from: FXR2evo99 on August 10, 2008, 01:51:19 AM

Mikey....

Thanks for posting the information from JP Cycles sounds like a tool I need to look into having as well....65% of the battle with these bikes is having the right tools, 30% is having forums like this to gain access to sometimes 30-40 people who may have experienced exactly what you are experiencing and having a population of 1,000's that can offer insight at anytime, it's like having a garage full of technicans, and of course the other 5% is a great digital camera, and taking the time to use it before you start and while doing a project.....

you're welcome .. this ratchet has a lil stubby 3/16 hex bit that comes with it, the wrench is pretty thin and designed to fit into tight places, like between the rocker box bolt and the bottom of the backbone ! JP Cycles online cat has a pic of the wrench, but it's not a good pic, it doesn't show the profile. But as I said, I've had one in my hands at the indy shop, I will have one in my garage before I start this project.

Quote

Now I have a question have you already purchased the screamin eagle heads?

Yes, why do you ask ?
I have the following parts, ALREADY on hand, all new:
SE Heads (sliver)
Mikuni HSR42
Rivera tapper ed co-molly adjustable push rods
Sifton hydraulic max-axle lifters
Chrome Lifter Blocks
PRO-FORCE ONE - High-Performance Air Intake Assembly

Quote

By the way the photo above the aviation gasket cement could become your next best friend....here is a thread on why I feel it should be at least:

If you like you can click, view, and read about a thread where I offer up the attributes of the product within the thread you will be able to pull up several other threads as well....oh what a tangle web we weave....lol here you go:

http://groups.msn.com/HarleyTechTalk/tc88fathead.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=1344736&ShowDelete=0&CDir=-2

I also have very strong opinions about which gaskets to use when going down to the cylinder base gaskets and which ones to use for the rocker boxes....and where to use hylomar [gasket sealer] if interested let me know I believe I can find the threads where I have offered this information....like I said above I had to go into my FXR2 in June of 05 and my bike has been perfect since doing it.....and at that time I had to do it twice as I had a problem with James Gaskets in certain areas....

I'm VERY interested in this space. I have a lot of questions about gaskets, which ones should I use, where, best installation methods, etc.
Of course what I want is NO LEAKS when I get finished, and NO LEAKS for a LONG TIME to come. I don't what to have to take it apart just because I didn't get the gaskets right.

Quote

Regards,

Tim

Thanks again Tim for all you help......

I have read some of the stuff that you posted about the gaskets cement, and need to re-read and better understand it before I start.

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #20 on:** August 10, 2008, 09:02:37 AM »

Quote from: RedFXR2 on August 10, 2008, 08:27:11 AM

Once you drop the motor you won't need any special wrenches. I used a conventional dog leg allen on mine. I also bought the very wrench you mention--before I realized that even with it, I still had to drop the motor.

GOOD information, save me some money, THANKS !

Quote

When I did mine, I discovered that fitting a torque wrench on anything but the two front bolts on the front cylinder was impossible. So, using those two, I marked the bolt and rocker box with a tiny corresponding dot using a Sharpie. Then I torqued the bolt to spec from hand tight and marked the bolt again. I then used this measured difference on the rear, inaccessible bolts and nothing stripped and it hasn't leaked since.

WONDERFUL input, Thanks for that tip !!!!!!!!!

RedFXR2 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 10, 2008, 09:22:28 AM »

Quote from: fxr4mikey on August 10, 2008, 08:59:45 AM

you're welcome .. this ratchet has a lil stubby 3/16 hex bit that comes with it, the wrench is pretty thin and designed to fit into tight places, like between the rocker box bolt and the bottom of the backbone ! JP Cycles online cat has a pic of the wrench, but it's not a good pic, it doesn't show the profile. But as I said, I've had one in my hands at the indy shop, I will have one in my garage before I start this project.

It's a Kastar product. Like I said, I bought one, myself but you're still going to need to lower the motor. As I recall. the Kastar wrench will barely drop into the top of the allen bolt, but even if you loosen it, the bolt is too long to be fully removed without hitting to the bottom of the frame. As you loosen the bolt, it rises out of the hole. In fact, after only a couple of turns, you won't be able to get the ratchet out of the bolt because of the reduced space. Even if you remove the ratchet, the bolt itself will be too long to lift out of the hole. It's a nice wrench, understand, but bottom line is that even with it, you'll still need to lower the motor (or drill an access hole in the fram as mentioned earlier) to remove the bolt completely from the hole.

Me, I found that once the motor is down, I could use a standard allen wrench to loosen and tighten the bolt. I have a nice, barely used one in my tool box.

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #22 on:** August 10, 2008, 09:33:43 AM »

Quote from: RedFXR2 on August 10, 2008, 09:22:28 AM

It's a Kastar product. Like I said, I bought one, myself but you're still going to need to lower the motor. As I recall. the Kastar wrench will barely drop into the top of the allen bolt, but even if you loosen it, the bolt is too long to be fully removed without hitting to the bottom of the frame. As you loosen the bolt, it rises out of the hole. In fact, after only a couple of turns, you won't be able to get the ratchet out of the bolt because of the reduced space. Even if you remove the ratchet, the bolt itself will be too long to lift out of the hole. It's a nice wrench, understand, but bottom line is that even with it, you'll still need to lower the motor (or drill an access hole in the fram as mentioned earlier) to remove the bolt completely from the hole.

Me, I found that once the motor is down, I could use a standard allen wrench to loosen and tighten the bolt. I have a nice, barely used one in my tool box.

Thanks .. yeah I understand about the bolt rising out of the rocker box and then hitting the bottom of the back bone. So I'll just use a reg. allen wrench, sorry you'll have to keep your lightly used Kastar LOL

Long story - cutting it short.
I had all my parts sent to my buddy's place up in ND. We were gonna do the build this past June. When we got the tank off and saw this situation we were

so we went to his Indy, who said .... take off the front motor mount and drop the engine down and you'll be able to get that bolt out.
So we went back to his place and looked at it ..... we could not believe that even doing that would provide enough room to get the bolt out.
We had borrowed tools from his indy, inner bearing puller (changing to Torrington) and the Kastar wrench and some other things.
So, after we looked at it we took all the tools back and put the bike back together.
We installed a single fire coil and a compu-fire ignition system ......... I left and finished my trip and came home.
Since then he shipped all the parts back to me here in SC, I've found this site, and now understand that in fact his indy was correct ...... this is good news, and bad.
Good that his Indy had the experience beyond ours, and knows his stuff, bad cause my build isn't done yet, and I could surly use my buddy's knowledge and experience in getting this build done. I've never had a engine apart before and it makes me a bit nervous ..... thinking about doing it alone.

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:13:28 PM »

Evo Engine Photo:

[NOTE: Please remember that putting your cursor next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your cursor on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:14:46 PM »

I am going to cut and paste from a few threads I have read in the past that have always made sense at least to me:

QUESTION:
(Original Message) Sent: 5/16/2001
Ever notice that when they start leaking AGAIN that it's in the same place?
Just for the hell of it I put mine on a layth, and guess what.The bottom of the jugs WERE NOT FLAT! Base gaskets compress to 5thou.( acording to the big guys) The left rear corner of my rear jug was 7thou. different than the 3 other corners. the front jug was concave on the left side between the front and rear corner by 5thou.

ANSWER:
From: AlphaSamuel Sent: 5/16/2001 (well known contributer on HTT has sense passed away, but his opinions I valued)
That's what happens when you have castings made overseas by unskilled workers, then ground down by robots. The Factory has tried just about everything from different gaskets, to 0 rings and still they leak. I know people who have invested in expensive tools to "square" off the bases as you have done and the damned things still leaked. I finally gave up in disgust, went back to the basics of assembly of aircooled engines with aluminum jugs w/steel liners, started using avaition gasket cement on all my gaskets and, viola! No more leaks. Sure a little squeezes out, but my trusted finger tip and a rag and mineral spirits clean it right off. It also can be used on bolts where installed into aluminum housings to prevent annealing of dsisemiliar metals. They will never sieze, nor gall your aluminum threads. Worked for me. Samuel

Samuel refers to "AVIATION GASKET CEMENT WITHIN HIS RESPONSES, IF YOU WILL REFER TO REPLY #5 ABOVE WITHIN THIS "THREAD" YOU WILL SEE A REFERENCE TO THE PRODUCT OF "AVIATION GASKET CEMENT" ALONG WITH A PHOTO OF THAT PRODUCT.

QUESTION:
Evo 1340 : Leaking cylinder gaskets 03-13-2002
My base gaskets were repaired a while back, based upon what I am hearing, should I expect these gaskets to start leaking again, or is the thicker gasket a permanent fix??

ANSWER:
From: AlphaSamuel
There have been some reports of reoccurring head gasket problems. However, I have redone my base gaskets and not wanting to have to repeat I decided to coat the cases where the gasket mounts w/aviation gasket cement, then applied the gasket (james) to the base then applied another coat to the top side of the gasket, then installed the cylinders. When I replaced the engine at 73K the base gaskets were still not leaking. I did the same thing to my wife's FXR and she had more than 64K when I changed her engine. Samuel

QUESTION:
Evo 1340 : Weeping Oil Problem 12-31-2001
29000 miles on the Evo engine and I'm noticing oil weeping at the base of the rear cylinder. . . . . is this the failed "base gasket" problem I've read about recently in one of the cyclemags and if so, what is the best way to fix and with which gasket? Thanks, Huck

ANSWER:
From: AlphaSamuel
There are several different so called cures for this problem caused by the heating and contraction of the cylinders to the cases. HD engines, including the Evo have an oil gallery that runs down through the heads, the cylinders and into the cases. In addition, you have the oil being slung around by the movement of the internals. Each time the metal stretches under heat and contracts when cooling some of the oil gets in and around the gasket at the base of the cylinders. There is one school of thought that says when the gasket gets totally saturated with oil it begins to weep, the weep becomes a seep, then a genuine leak. You have many gasket cutters that say their product will correct this. You have the factory "new" design where they now use an 0 ring at the base to correct this age old problem. And they still leak. I can tell you what I use. I install a good gasket coated on both sides with a coating of aviation gasket cement. I've used this method on air cooled engines that use no gaskets between sections of the cases. I've used this product on out board engines that have the same basic design/construction as our engines and for me it works. Others will tell you that some other system works. I can only tell you what has worked for me after putting more than
180,000 miles on evo engines.

I also use this product on my case bolts, side cover bolts, etc and have NEVER had one gald the threads, never had one seize, never had one deform the threads where they need to be chased with a tap. Even installed iron bolts into aluminum and returned months later and removed them with ease. I only know it works for me. Samuel

Cylinder Base Gasket Photo & Part #:

EDIT DEC 01, 2010:
Embeded within the photo below is the Genuine James Inc. Part# for a package of 2 JGI-16777-94 Drag Specialties Part# is DS-174116

This particular "METAL" gasket with bead also can be purchased as part of a James "KIT":
JGI-16770-84MLS Drag Specialties Part#: 0934-0954
Evo Head Gasket Big Twin MLS .040" (not beaded)
Evo Base Gasket Big Twin (single layer steel beaded) .022" crushes to .020"

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #25 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:15:50 PM »

(continued From Above)

JohnS_ Roasamond_CA is someone I also value with regards to his opinions on EVO's, he too is a well known contributer over at HTT so I feel his comments deserve review:

John was asked a question, I merely pasted the answer as the answer is clear all by itself:

12-15-2005 From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA
I have seen leaks with the paper gaskets (especially earlier Harley paper gaskets), and I've seen leaks with the metal gaskets as well. I have come to the conclusion that if you want to be leak free until the cylinders need to come off again, then you need some kind of gasket dressing. I prefer hylomar. I have had good luck in assembling base gaskets with this dressing, otherwise you're taking your chances on future leaks.

The hylomar that I use is put out by Permatex, and only comes in one flavour. The tube says "Hylomar HPF - high performance formula" item number 25249. On the base gaskets and rocker cover gaskets, I squeeze a little dab onto my index finger, then squeeze it between my thumb and index finger. Then I rub it on both sides of the gasket as I'm holding it. Easy to do with a metal gasket. The idea is that you don't goop it on like silicone. John S,

From: anotherhdrider
I buy the Hylomar at Auto Zone. It comes in a tube such as silicone. Like I stated in my blurb...a little goes a long way! I place several dabs around the perimeter and smear it around with my finger. This stuff is amazing for sealing. It is like silicone, but silicone is "RTV", meaning Room Temperature Vulcanizing, it vulcanizes (hardens) at room temp...Hylomar does not EVER vulcanize, therefore it stays sticky forever, and not leave rubbery strings in the engine (that seem to wreak havoc with oil pumps).

(So as you can see there are two alternative options being recommended here, ie: AVIATION GASKET CEMENT or HYLOMAR, both are incredible products and I would recommend using either one, ultimately one will discover that HYLOMAR has been "discontinued" within your typical "autozone" or "NAPA" stores leaving one to only find the product perhaps on EBAY for reference purposes)

QUESTION:
Evo 1340 : base gaskets 05-19-2004

From: bagman (Original Message)
any suggestions for base gasket replacement? can't seem to make mine stop leaking.

ANSWER:
From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA
Harley's OEM base gasket has never really worked well, and has gone through several revisions. I have seen many of the "oil fix's" and didn't care for them. Cometic and James are both good (better than paper for sure), however, I have had some trouble with both (even where the mating surfaces were true). However, I personally use the James metal base gasket with a thin coating of Hylomar on both sides. On bikes where I know that there is a sealing problem, this combination has not yet failed. Dry 'till they come apart.

The base gaskets do have a tendency to leak. I second the use of the James aluminum base gasket, but with one caveat. I use a thin layer of hylomar on both sides of the gasket. My mechanic buddy has since stopped using James base gaskets due to a series of "come backs." However, after I began using the hylomar, I haven't had one premature failure. One of the bikes that I used this set up on was a habitual leaker. Couldn't get it to stay for more than a few thousand miles. It's been dry now for more than 30,000m. Hylomar is available at most general automotive stores, made in the U.S. by Permatex.
John S,

I FOUND THIS POST IN ANOTHER THREAD AND I FEEL IT'S WORTH MENTIONING HERE:

From: Harleyguy5731 Sent: 3/20/2008 2:41 PM
Evo's have base gaskets, Twin Cam's have "O" rings. The reason that base gaskets leak on EVO's is that the heads were either not torqued down properly when they were installed either that or the rider does not warm the engine up sufficiently before getting into the throttle. The aluminum heads grow as they get hot and as they grow the seal the thin base gaskets. If the heads were torqued down beyound spec's as the jugs expanded they would tear out the bolts. When a rider gets into the throttle before the jugs have expanded sufficiently, the head gasket will get trashed from pressure being built up in the cylinder, Twin cams tend to require less warming up that the EVO's, however they also do require some warming up to allow the jugs to grow and to seal the "O" rings, I hope this helps! Harleyguy5731

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:16:40 PM »

QUESTION:
Evo 1340 : Changing heads 06-21-2004

From: evorider007 (Original Message)
I'm getting ready to install a set of screamin eagle heads on my '91 Fatboy, I'm trying to think of everything before I tear it apart. My question is about gaskets, the set I have picked out is a James head set, .045 head, .020 base and rubber rocker gaskets. Anybody been down this road? I dont want to do the job and find out I should have used brand X instead. Thanks Charles

ANSWER:
From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA
I really like the James gasket for the base gasket, the head gasket and the rocker cover (and sometimes referred to as the rocker base) gasket. There are only two caveats:

1. On the base gasket, use some "hylomar". It's a blue sticky gasket material (Not like silicone). Every once in a while I will have a James base gasket leak on me for no apparent reason. Or on cylinder will seal and the other wont (where no known problem existed before). So, use a little hylomar and you'll be okay (I got mine from the local auto oparts store. Just a very thing coating).

2. On the rubber-like rocker gaskets. I have never had good luck with the aftermarket rubbers. They don't always sit in the seal groove well, and due to that will sometimes pinch, or just not seal. I always use the Harley rocker-rubbers and paper discs for the rockers top screws

Yes, 'tis true. Remove the front motor mount and you'll have enough room to get the left rear rocker bolt out. I usually shorten this bolt by just a few threads - makes it easier to remove next time due to frame interference.
John S.

QUESTION WAS ASKED BUT NOT RECORDED AS ANSWER CAN STAND ALONE:
Evo 1340 : new base gaskets? 09-01-2005

ANSWER:
From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA
I use the James metal base gasket with a think coating of hylomar - works good every time. However, let me wax philosophic about base gasket leaks. The oil "fix" says that it's the oil return hole that causes the base gasket to leak oil. Oh really? Then why is it that it's primarily the rear cylinder that does it. Why isn't it more centralized around the oil return hole then? My theory is that it has something to do with pressure in the case pushing oil in between the cylinder spigot and the case - then pushing it outwards under the gasket. Since the flywheel spits most of it's oil towards the rear cylinder - that's the cylinder that gets the most oil up in between the cylinder spigot and case (so that's the one that shows the leak). That's why the hylomar works. It never hardens and makes it much more difficult for oil to migrate. That's why a paper gasket alone isn't enough. But what do I know. John S,

QUESTION:
From: Johnnyo (Original Message)
I need to replace the head gaskets on my Evo, my question is will I need to replace the cylinder base gaskets also? I really don't want to break the ring seal since I don't need pistons.

ANSWER:
From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA
My experience with the original paper base gaskets is that it's almost impossible not to break part of the seal when removing the head. If the head gasket melted (like it's supposed to), then any sideways tapping you do breaks the base gasket seal first before the head gasket lets go. Think of it this way, would you rather just do the head gasket now, and then have the base gasket leak shortly after? You really don't want to get any kind of sealant inside the case. The oil return hole is very small and you wouldn't want it to get plugged up by stray silicone - (it's not that it would starve the engine, but it could significantly slow the rate of oil return to the pump and "sump" it while you were riding. Anyway, my best suggestion is that I have been using the metal James base gasket and then coating it with a very thin layer of Hylomar. I have not had a premature leak, and the gasket comes off so easy there's hardly any cleanup.
John S,

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:18:08 PM »

Cylinder Head Gasket Photo & Part#:

EDIT DEC 01, 2010:

Embeded within the photo below are references to 2 Cometic Head Gaskets which are MLS (Multiple Layer Steel ie: 3 layers of steel), the Cometic Part Numbers and Corresponding Drag Specialty Part #'s are the following:

Cometic: C9688 (2 pack) 0.030" HEAD GASKET
Drag Specialties: DS-172086

Cometic: C9689 (2 Pack) 0.040" HEAD GASKET
Drag Specialties: DS-172087

Additional Cometic Head Gaskets "BUT" With No Corresponding Drag Specialties Part Numbers:

C9689-036 (2 Pack) .036" HEAD GASKET MLS
C9689-045 (2 Pack) .045" HEAD GASKET MLS

Genuine James Gaskets Also Produces A Head Gasket, They However Do Not Manufacture A .030" Head Gasket. This Particular Part Number Is For A "KIT" Which Includes:

Genuine James Gaskets: JGI-16770-84MLS
Drag Specialties: 0934-0954
Which Includes A Pair Of Each:
Evo Head Gasket Big Twin MLS .040"
Evo Base Gasket Big Twin Single Layer Steel .020"

[NOTE: Please remember that putting your cursor next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your cursor on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:21:29 PM »

Rocker Arm Lower Gasket Photo & Part#:

EDIT DEC 1st 2010:
Embeded into the photo below are two part numbers, 1st is JGI-16779-99-X, 2nd is DS-173316

The Photo below is "ACTUALLY" depicting a:
Genuine James Inc. Part # is JGI-16779-99-X which is 1 Pair Of METAL .020" Thickness METAL With Bead Gaskets.

If one wishes to purchase this metal gasket gasket w/bead through a 20% discount HD Dealer having a Drag Specialties Part Number would be helpful,
The Drag Specialties Part # is DS-174203

If one wishes to purchase these gaskets within a "KIT", including not only "these" Lower Rocker METAL Base Gaskets (2), but also inclusive of O-rings for push rods, neoprene rubber (lower, upper, center) gaskets, umbrella valves, rocker cover copper washers, rocker cover fibre washers, etc. then The Genuine James Part # JGI-17042-92-X becomes the one you desire and the corresponding Drag Specialties Part # is 0934-1726.

The second number "embeded" into the Photo below,
ie: DS-173316 "ACTUALLY" corresponds with a Genuine James Gasket Part # JGI-17042-92, this part number is yet a "THIRD" Option by James Gaskets, this is also for a "KIT" referred to as Rocker Cover Gasket Kit, of which within this "KIT" the one piece Lower Rocker Base Gaskets are made of "PAPER", that's right "PAPER", I suppose there are just some mechanics out there that like working with "PAPER" gaskets still, and so thats what that Part Number refers to, it is also inclusive of all the other parts mentioned in the "KIT" above as well.

SO THERE YOU HAVE IT NEEDLESS TO SAY THERE ARE MANY OPTIONS SO PAY ATTENTION TO THE PART NUMBERS YOU WRITE DOWN.

Personally, I prefer the One Piece Genuine James Inc. Part # JGI-16779-99-X / Drag Specialties # DS-174203 ONLY while purchasing the other parts needed as described below.

[NOTE: Please remember that putting your cursor next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your cursor on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #29 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:22:35 PM »

The key here is that all of these parts are OEM as you will read why:

From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA
Some gaskets from Harley are actually very good, while others can be substituted. Two gaskets that I go to Harley for are the Primary gasket (for the outer primary cover) and the neoprene “rubber” rocker box gaskets themselves.

From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA
One of the reasons that I prefer to buy the Harley rocker gaskets (neoprene rubber rocker cover gaskets) is that they seem to have a superior shape. Other brands don't seem to be cut quite right and will not fit well into the gasket channel. So, no I do not use any liquid gasket to try and keep the gasket in place. If you are using an inferior gasket, you may have to, but when that gasket heats up, you might end up with a pinch, or a split. Never had trouble like that with the HD gaskets.

This is ME TALKING:
HD has the part number of 17042-92A which is a kit for both cylinders and it does INCLUDE a metal rocker base gasket for anyone interested (or a cylinder head gasket between the cylinder head and the bottom rocker cover).....the individual part # for this particular metal gasket is now HD # 16800-84 also included within the kit are the Lower, Upper, & Inner Rocker Cover Gaskets, umbrella valves & gasket (washers) for the bolts which fasten the Outer Rocker Cover for both cylinders. BUT because I prefer to use either a James Gasket (JGI-16779-99X) or a Cometic (C9865) [Rocker Base Gasket] along with several other listed parts listed above ie: o~rings & washers the kit really seems to perhaps fail it’s warranted value for my application. SO simply purchase the listed part numbers shown above individually and not within this kit.

When it comes to a 1999 time frame of bike....as mine is which is an 1999 FXR2 I would say that using HD gaskets as John S was very persistent to suggest would be a strong recommendation.....for the rubber gaskets......for the gasket that is between the cylinder head and the bottom of the lower rocker box [Rocker Base Gasket / Rocker Cover Gasket as it is referred to as well] you have the option of the metal one....I purchased the new James one piece metal gasket, James also makes a two piece metal gasket, and I purchased the HD one piece metal gasket....when looking at both of them carefully I made the decision to use the James one piece metal gasket.....and then I took John's advice and covered it with very very lightly with a thin layer of Hylomar....and all I can say is that it is tight and my rocker boxes are not leaking.....

From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA 08-06-2005
For the neoprene rocker gaskets, I like the OE Harley stuff (including the little grey paper discs under the 1/4 - 20 screws. For the head gasket, I personally like the grey colored graphite ones, but have used others and been satisfied. For the base gasket and the lower rocker gasket [Rocker Base Gasket / Rocker Cover Gasket], I like the metal gaskets from Genuine James, but with the caveat that you have to put a thin layer of Hylomar on the gasket. If you use them dry they will work fine for a while, but it's "possible" that you may have a leak later on. I have a bike that was a consistent base gasket leaker. James gasket with hylomar 40,000m - no problems. You can find hylomar at most any auto parts store. John S,

Misc Rocker Arm Channel "Rubber" Gaskets, O~Rings, Photo & Part#'s:

[NOTE: Please remember that putting your cursor next to the paper clip icon below the photo will allow you to enlarge the photo plus save it to your computer if you desire OR if you merely wish to see it enlarged simply put your cursor on the photo and "LEFT" click and it will enlarge]

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #30 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:23:03 PM »

From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA
The black neoprene rocker box gaskets are superior to the cork in my opinion, though truthfully any gasket material should work if it's installed correctly. If the rocker box is leaking really bad, then either the rocker boxes are warped (when they look right when you put it together but then slide on each other as the bike is run) or you are bearing down on the top rocker bolts too hard and the gasket material is breaking (both the cork and neoprene will break if it's tightened too much).

I have never had any trouble with the neoprene rocker gaskets from Harley, but I have had trouble with the neoprene gaskets from just about everybody else.

And for further information when dealing with umbrella valves they were not used for model year 1989, even if the rocker box had a place for the umbrella valve, one would not use it. The 1992 and earlier cases breath out of a hose that comes out of the bottom of the case. Starting with model year 1993, all bikes had the crank case breather that vented out of the cylinder head and into the air filter. The umbrella valve was supposed to help separate liquid oil from the air stream. John S, Rosamond CA

From: JohnS_Rosamond_CA
It's always a good idea to replace the umbrella valves when you R and R a rocker box. It's a poor design that tries to eliminate oil droplets from the air stream. The "Cure" is a good investment, but I'm not sure that the "plus" is worth the extra penny - though I haven't tried the "plus" version. On the rocker gasket giving up the ghost, it could be a warped rocker tier. I had a rear (centre) rocker that warped and within about 150 miles it would shift over to the left and blow oil all over. Eventually the only permanent fix for me was to replace the whole rocker set. However, the rocker gasket is very soft and if you pinch it or over torque it - the gasket will split. Using an X-pattern when tightening the rocker will help avoid excessive tight spots. John S,

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:23:26 PM »

Alrighty then....so there you have it......if you choose to want to go through a 20% Discount Harley Davidson Dealer for the above parts then you will need to have the Drag Specialties part# to give to that person, I had the DS# for one of the gaskets above but not all of them. You can always contact JAMES GASKETS by doing a "GOOGLE" search and give them their part number and ask what the Drag Specialties part number is....that's what I do when I need it....if anyone cares to follow up on the applicable DRAG SPECIALTIES part numbers that I am missing above feel free to e~mail me and I will modify the photo to reflect such number to make it easier for others....

When it comes to the Cometic Head gasket's just remember if you oversize your cylinder jugs then you "MAY" need to oversize your cometic gasket as well....by the way "MLS" as used by Cometic stands for Multi-Layer Steel.

So there you have it....the above would be the actual gaskets I would use on my EVO engine....and actually I am running some of them right now....just not the James Base Gasket as I haven't been that far down.

UPDATE: AS OF JAN 2011 I AM REBUILDING MY ENGINE AND WILL BE REPLACING THE BASE GASKETS AS WELL AS THE HEAD GASKETS.

An update on the "HYLOMAR" apparently late last year Permatex the maker of "HYLOMAR" quit manufactuering it, you can sometimes find this on EBAY....so that's why I would recommend as an alternative the "Aviation Gasket Cement".....Hylomar is extremely tacky.....you don't put it on like you are doing a bath tub seal between the tile and the tub....you put it on EXTREMELY light....and it works EXTREMELY WELL....A tube of that stuff will last awhile.... JUMP TO THE REPLY BELOW #34 HYLOMAR IS NOW AVAILABLE AGAIN!
Mikey, if you follow what was offered above you will never have a leak on your evo engine...after I did mine I have never had a leak, I know others will say if you have to add a gasket sealant then you got other problems....but Samuel (one of the person's I referenced above was into Aviation, well he was into a lot of things and had a lot of wisdom to offer....if it's good enough for him as well as John S. then it's good enough for me and it HAS PROVEN to be GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME)

This is also a pretty good thread on this topic as well, if you would like click, view, and read:

BASE GASKET WEEPING <~~~~CLICK, VIEW, & READ

So hopefully this is helpful to you or someone else down the road.....

Regards,

Tim

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #32 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:23:49 PM »

REDFXR2~~~
Once you drop the motor you won't need any special wrenches. I used a conventional dog leg allen on mine. I also bought the very wrench you mention--before I realized that even with it, I still had to drop the motor.

It's a Kastar product. Like I said, I bought one, myself but you're still going to need to lower the motor. As I recall. the Kastar wrench will barely drop into the top of the allen bolt, but even if you loosen it, the bolt is too long to be fully removed without hitting to the bottom of the frame. As you loosen the bolt, it rises out of the hole. In fact, after only a couple of turns, you won't be able to get the ratchet out of the bolt because of the reduced space. Even if you remove the ratchet, the bolt itself will be too long to lift out of the hole. It's a nice wrench, understand, but bottom line is that even with it, you'll still need to lower the motor (or drill an access hole in the fram as mentioned earlier) to remove the bolt completely from the hole.

That is some excellent input....if I don't write things down it's hard for me to remember everything....and you spit it out like you did it yesterday....that's awesome....But here is a point....I STILL wonder if we were to change those evo screws out to the twin cam screws whether that would help with torquing more bolts....because of the tool I mentioned above from Snap On....I realize it's tight in there but with the extension there would indeed be more room, perhaps MIKEY can be our R&D on this one...lol....when it's time to do the job....as I DON'T PLAN ON Breaking into my rocker boxes for any reason too soon....and it would be nice to know whether that might be a solution...

When I did mine, I discovered that fitting a torque wrench on anything but the two front bolts on the front cylinder was impossible. So, using those two, I marked the bolt and rocker box with a tiny corresponding dot using a Sharpie. Then I torqued the bolt to spec from hand tight and marked the bolt again. I then used this measured difference on the rear, inaccessible bolts and nothing stripped and it hasn't leaked since.

I CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW YOU ARE DOING THIS....ok you mark the bolt, I get that...and the rocker box with a tiny corresponding dot using a Sharpie....I get this too.... but the rest of it I am not getting....I am not seeing the "picture" of what you are doing....

I am sure it is me but can someone help to explain this...it sounds like RED is on to something here worth truly understanding.....I am sure the rest of you get it....but the train is leaving without me.....

Regards,

Tim

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #33 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:24:13 PM »

Mikey,

I was just curious if you actually had the "screaming" eagle heads in your possesion, as I believe they are getting harder to find aren't they guys?

It will be fun seeing what you do with your build....

Howie....
I put the xxxxxx to allow me enough room to post what I did above in case I became too detailed....and now I am finished so now I can delete them....LOL

Regards,

Tim

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #34 on:** August 10, 2008, 04:28:07 PM »

I talked so much about "HYLOMAR" up above that I thought I should provide a link and price for it as well as a simple description, turns out that of Februrary 2009, the price is $30.00 for a 3 oz tube and this particular product is the same product that one use to acquire at your auto parts store under the permatex brand....

SIMPLY, CLICK, VIEW, & READ:

HYLMAR PDF

MULTIBOND
Hylomar® Universal Blue

Hylomar Advanced Formula is a solvent free, low viscosity version of the standard Universal Blue. It is ideally suited as a gasket dressing and it will enhance the sealing capabilities of all types of gaskets and can assist with gasket alignment during assembly. It is designed to seal closely fitting flanges against most lubricants and automotive fluids. Like all the Hylomar formulations, the sealant is re-sealable, non-setting and non-hardening which provides excellent resistance to vibration and thermal expansion of parts.

▪ Solvent free, low viscosity version of Universal Blue.

▪ Same formulation as the Permatex version "Hylomar HPF"

Regards,

Tim

Hoist! · « **Reply #35 on:** August 10, 2008, 05:04:22 PM »

Hmmm.... I wonder what he's got up his sleeve to fill in these with spaces now?

Hoist!

RedFXR2 · « **Reply #36 on:** August 10, 2008, 08:45:50 PM »

Quote from: FXR2evo99 on August 10, 2008, 04:23:49 PM

When I did mine, I discovered that fitting a torque wrench on anything but the two front bolts on the front cylinder was impossible. So, using those two, I marked the bolt and rocker box with a tiny corresponding dot using a Sharpie. Then I torqued the bolt to spec from hand tight and marked the bolt again. I then used this measured difference on the rear, inaccessible bolts and nothing stripped and it hasn't leaked since.

I CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW YOU ARE DOING THIS....ok you mark the bolt, I get that...and the rocker box with a tiny corresponding dot using a Sharpie....I get this too.... but the rest of it I am not getting....I am not seeing the "picture" of what you are doing.... I am sure it is me but can someone help to explain this...it sounds like RED is on to something here worth truly understanding.....I am sure the rest of you get it....but the train is leaving without me.....

Regards,

Tim

It works like this: Hand tighten the bolt in place through the top rocker box. Place a Sharpie dot on both the rocker box top and the side of the bolt head--aligned with the dot on the rocker box top. Now, using the torque wrench, torque the bolt to spec. The dot on the rocker box stays in place but the dot on the side of the bolt head turns with the bolt. Once the proper torque is reached, note how far the bolt head turned from the hand-tight spot. Then do this again at any other bolt you can reach with a torque wrench. The bolts should be fairly similar in additional rotation. This will tell you about how far to turn with a conventional allen wrench, the remaining bolts which you can't reach with a torque wrench. Mark those bolts and rocker box tops at the hand tighten spot and then turn them approximately the same number of degrees as the ones on which you used a torque wrench.

IMO, this is probably sort of beyond necessary as the torque spec for these bolts isn't very much, the bolts are small, and all we're talking about is noncritical gasket sealing. Flatness of the top rocker box and new gaskets goes a long way to minimize the importance of exact torque. But it's what I did when replacing the top rocker boxes due to warpage and installing new gaskets. At the time, I was really sick of fighting rocker box leaks so I probably went overboard. At any rate, I've had completely dry rocker boxes since--about three years now.

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #37 on:** August 11, 2008, 01:56:40 AM »

REDFXR2

At any rate, I've had completely dry rocker boxes since--about three years now.

Thank you for your "further" explaination above.....it helped!

For what it's worth I might add I too have had completely dry rocker boxes since--- definitely three years now....so what we both did seems to have worked successfully....did you actually put hylomar on your "lower" rocker box gaskets when you did yours?

Regards,

Tim

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #38 on:** August 11, 2008, 11:16:19 AM »

WOW .......... LOTS and LOTS of information
WONDERFUL

THANKS for taking the time to post all that !!

I have read it, need to read it a few more times and to print some of it out and add it to my notes in my manual

I will post up some comments/reply in a couple of weeks .... what? a couple of weeks?

Yeah man !

I am leaving early tomorrow morning on a trip up MI and riding all the way around Lake MI and then back home.
I should log about 4K miles.
I'll take pics and post a few of them (over in the pic threads) when I get back somewhere about 8/25
cya yall when I get back

RedFXR2 · « **Reply #39 on:** August 11, 2008, 12:11:00 PM »

Quote from: FXR2evo99 on August 11, 2008, 01:56:40 AM

...did you actually put hylomar on your "lower" rocker box gaskets when you did yours?

Nope. Although if I did it again, from reading your posts, I might try it. Looking back on the "motor makeover" on my bike about three years ago, the tech doing the work used Cometic gaskets on the cylinder bases. I'd be curious to ask him about a light coating of hylomar on them. Wonder if he uses it or not? Those things would represent a considerably bigger job so I'd be up for doing anything to make sure they didn't leak. Mine have been dry ever since but I'd like them to be that way for a loooooong time.

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #40 on:** August 11, 2008, 07:28:59 PM »

Well going back to June of 2005 when I arrived home from purchasing my "new" previously owned "museum piece" FXR2, having driven it 350 miles on it's "maiden" voyage, I noticed a drop of oil on my driveway.....and I carefully looked the bike over to find a "oily" mess....I was totally disappointed....but not defeated....the bike had only 5,400 miles on it, the original owner had only put that many miles on the bike in over 6 years and 3 months of ownership....he lived in Gilllette, WY where temperatures are a bit extreme....and didn't have a heated garage....and he had taken like two 1,000 mile trips with the bike and so that meant that the other 3,400 miles came via 6 years and 10 weeks.....heck that's only 50 miles a month on average and most likely I figured about 17 days of 200 mile trips out of a possible 2300 days.....so say I am off by 100 days of riding out of a possible 2,300 days of riding the bike was only out what 120 days which means the bike sat for 95% of it's life.....so I was told to expect the potential of some of this....Sure enough...so I sat about fixing the leaks, it turned out to be the rear cylinder that was doing most of it....and I noticed some weeping right at the lower rocker box gasket area, as everyone knows that has taken theirs apart the factory was using a paper two piece gasket....so it was prone to do this....so I went out purchased the James gaskets....well as it turns out....the Geniune James rubber neoprene blew out of the middle rocker box of the front cylinder....and this time it was worse than before....now I was pretty discouraged.....and anytime you have to repair something once, well ok, but twice and it gets "old" lol.......so this time I did more research and that's why I used precisely what I did above....turns out that HD has it's place for certain applications, James in a couple of spots and of course cometic for the head gasket.....I have only been as low as the lower Rocker box one piece gasket........but if I had to go to the head gasket for the cylinder and the base gasket of the cylinder, I would definitely add "hylomar" to these three major gaskets, ie: base gasket, head gasket, and of course the lower rocker box "one piece" gasket as well.....

This spring we added some "hylomar" to a buddies Twin cam in his rocker box gasket area as well since he was experiencing some weeping.....

Like you thus far no more problems....

Regards,

Tim

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #41 on:** October 01, 2008, 11:35:28 PM »

Quote from: FXR2evo99 on August 10, 2008, 04:23:26 PM

Alrighty then....so there you have it......

Mikey, if you follow what was offered above you will never have a leak on your evo engine...after I did mine I have never had a leak, I know others will say if you have to add a gasket sealant then you got other problems....but Samuel (one of the person's I referenced above was into Aviation, well he was into a lot of things and had a lot of wisdom to offer....if it's good enough for him as well as John S. then it's good enough for me and it HAS PROVEN to be GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME)

This is also a pretty good thread on this topic as well, if you would like click, view, and read:

http://groups.msn.com/HarleyTechTalk/evo1340.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=1330238&ShowDelete=0&CDir=-2

So hopefully this is helpful to you or someone else down the road.....

Regards,

Tim

Tim !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm back from my trip, and then a second one that I hadn't planned on.

I've been reading tonight trying to catch up

DUDE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU, YOU are THE MAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish there were something that I could say that would express my gratidute more than THANKS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is TOTALLY AWESOME that you took the time to put all of this information up here.

I will be using the gaskets and the hylomar and the methods that you have shared.

I plan to take the bike apart and do the build in December, so we got a couple of months of riding and messing about before that.

THANK YOU sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo MUCH for all your help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mikey

rogerutley · « **Reply #42 on:** October 07, 2008, 12:08:04 PM »

i have same problem..... only front leaking now but maybe i should replace both cylinders..... what can i expect to pay my local harley dealer??? thx

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #43 on:** October 08, 2008, 12:19:51 PM »

i have same problem..... only front leaking now but maybe i should replace both cylinders..... what can i expect to pay my local harley dealer??? thx

rogerutley....

hmmmmm perhaps two hours labor (for both cylinders that is, if only doing one only 1 hour)........a indy dealer use to working on an FXR probably won't remove the tank where as you or I would find it much easier to access since we don't do something like this on a "regular" basis.....and if you aren't removing the tank then that saves another hour for removal and reinstallation.....

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Tim

PS: Thanks Mikey for the supporting comments.....glad it was of help to yah!!!

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #44 on:** January 14, 2009, 05:08:26 PM »

Need Hylomar HPF

BTW, chit ain't CHEAP

32 bucks for 3 oz YIKES !!!

I'm going to place an order tonight, at this site or somewhere .... I need some for my build

Look here: http://www.hylomar-usa.com/_resources/_html/products.html

Hylomar Advanced Formula = Same formulation as the Permatex version "Hylomar HPF"

Hylomar Advanced Formula is a solvent free, low viscosity version of the standard Universal Blue. It is ideally suited as a gasket dressing and it will enhance the sealing capabilities of all types of gaskets and can assist with gasket alignment during assembly. It is designed to seal closely fitting flanges against most lubricants and automotive fluids. Like all the Hylomar formulations, the sealant is re-sealable, non-setting and non-hardening which provides excellent resistance to vibration and thermal expansion of parts.

▪ Solvent free, low viscosity version of Universal Blue.

▪ Same formulation as the Permatex version "Hylomar HPF"

more ..........

~~

Hylomar UK makes several varieties of the blue goo. With the exception of
Hylomar Advanced Formulation, all the Hylomar grades are more stiff out of
the tube, don't smear onto the surface easily, and tack-up immediately,
giving almost zero working time. They almost feel like a thick, gooie
pressure sensitive adhesive. Smear it down right the first time and like
it, 'cuz it's staying where it is. Those Hylomar grades are not
"difficult" to use, it's just that compared to Hylomar Advanced
Formulation, they're not as easy to use.

In contrast, Advanced Formulation (aka, the OLD Permatex Hylomar HPF)
is unique in that it comes out of the tube in a more fluid state. It flows
onto the joint surface and is easy to spread. Then it stays fluid for a
considerable time giving it a long working life, and making it useful for
tasks like O-ring and coolant hose dressing. In those applications, the
more fluid Hylomar initially acts as a lubricant to aid in installing stiff
rubber coolant hoses and in seating O-rings. Then it tacks-up and provides
an enhanced seal.

All Hylomar Blues seal great (that's not an issue) but the stiffer
varieties are not as easy to apply in comparison to the Advanced Formulation
/ old Permatex Hylomar HPF version.

~~

Anyway, if you have been a Permatex Hylomar HPF fan in the US and you've
been wondering what happened to it... that's what. If you prefer the old
Permatex Hylomar HPF, it's no longer available but you can still get the
equivalent UK Hylomar Advanced Formulation. You'll just have to look
harder to find it.

JAE is presently going through the paperwork to import Hylomar Advanced
Formulation for us. There is a USA Hylomar Distributor, but they're
primarily set up to service industrial accounts and only sell Hylomar in
large, 3.5 oz tubes for $31.50 each. So JAE is working on getting set up
as a US importer for the smaller, more practical and familiar 1.0 or 1.2
oz tubes. Doing so involves both Hylomar and US Customs paperwork and it's
taking a while, but Jeff is working on it. For the moment, JAE has no
Hylomar Advanced Formulation in stock, but stay tuned.

Lube-O-Seal is the afore mentioned USA distributor for Hylomar and you can
order directly from their website. if you want it bad enough to buy the
large 3.5 oz tube at $31.50 each (verses the typical retail 1.2 oz tube).

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #45 on:** February 04, 2009, 09:20:19 AM »

I'll fix it Tim ..... I deleted my post ..... only needed it to get your attention to the broken link, Thanks Tim !!

fxr4mikey · « **Reply #46 on:** February 04, 2009, 11:38:18 PM »

Quote from: RedFXR2 on August 08, 2008, 03:18:14 PM

This has been quite a while ago but I don't think the top heim joint must be removed in order to lower the engine for rocker box access. It can simply pivot at each end when the motor movers down on the rear mounts. I think. But if it must be removed, it's not hard. You may need to remove the coil for access.

On the FXR4, I had to remove the coil and the coil mounting bracket. The top hemi joint has to be disconnected to lower the engine in the FXR4

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #47 on:** December 01, 2010, 09:00:30 PM »

Hello everyone---

Well I am just bringing this "THREAD" back up as I am currently involved in a engine rebuild which brings some updated information relative to this "THREAD".

Also wanted to mention that at least for the 2011 Harley Davidson Genuine Motor Parts & Accessories Catalog one can find on page # 807 Item # K Hylomar Gasket And Thread Sealant HD# 99653-85 3.5 oz tube $15.95

Also I recently purchased a "Motion Pro" Rocker Box Tool 3/16" This is a approx 11" long very thin stock metal bar that has a 3/8" cut out which is about 4" from the end, allowing one to get to those difficult to reach rocker cover 3/16" hex head bolts and be able to "torque" them. Approx price inclusive of shipping $20.00.

Regards,

Tim

fxr1234 · « **Reply #48 on:** April 27, 2011, 03:04:47 AM »

I remember doing the rear rocker cover gaskets on 1989 fxr . I used a jack out of 1986 vw diesel placed under engine, removed front motor mount and alignment stabilizer and upper stabilizer engine mount and lowered engine so front of engine was touching frame cross member. you may also loosen motor to trani bolts to lower it a bit . I then cut off a allen screw wrench and made a wrench out of thin flat steel to fit allen screw. FIRST use small vice grip pliers to loosen rear rocker left forward allen screw it is the hardest to remove and with the least amount of clearance then loosen the other three allen screws. then remove them.

FXR2evo99 · « **Reply #49 on:** February 16, 2012, 03:55:16 PM »

bump.....

JamesButler · « **Reply #50 on:** February 17, 2012, 01:59:47 PM »

Picking up a tube of the updated product: Permatex (#85249) "Hylomar Universal Blue Racing Formula Gasket and Flange Sealant" today at the local auto parts store.

Author Topic: Rocker box gaskets-FXR (Read 42512 times)

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