Topic: Best AFR? (Read 30062 times)

Chief · « **on:** March 19, 2007, 12:10:12 PM »

Now that I'm tuning the bike with the Rineharts, I'm not sure what AFR to tune for.

I want both good highway efficiency and good performance at WOT.

Currently, I've set 13.5 from 0% up through 40%, and the bike is running great. 13.5 was just a guess.

I can tune 0, 2, 5, 10, 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100% throttle settings. Logic would tell me that lower throttle settings could use a leaner mixture and higher throttle should be richer. This way, I could have good cruise efficiency and get max power at higher throttle performance.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Chief

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #1 on:** March 19, 2007, 12:24:48 PM »

Quote from: Chief on March 19, 2007, 12:10:12 PM

Now that I'm tuning the bike with the Rineharts, I'm not sure what AFR to tune for.

I want both good highway efficiency and good performance at WOT.

Currently, I've set 13.5 from 0% up through 40%, and the bike is running great. 13.5 was just a guess.

I can tune 0, 2, 5, 10, 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100% throttle settings. Logic would tell me that lower throttle settings could use a leaner mixture and higher throttle should be richer. This way, I could have good cruise efficiency and get max power at higher throttle performance.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Chief

Chief....I'm no expert in this area, so others may give different/better advice, but I've been told by a couple of tuners, and from most of the Dyno sheets I've ever seen, that WOT should be around 13:1 and a good "target" for other TP is 13.4:1. If you tune for particular TP or RPM, you could probably shoot for 13.7:1 at typical highway cruising to get good economy, but still maintain a cooler running engine.

Chief · « **Reply #2 on:** March 19, 2007, 12:45:33 PM »

Quote from: TCnBham on March 19, 2007, 12:24:48 PM

Chief....I'm no expert in this area, so others may give different/better advice, but I've been told by a couple of tuners, and from most of the Dyno sheets I've ever seen, that WOT should be around 13:1 and a good "target" for other TP is 13.4:1. If you tune for particular TP or RPM, you could probably shoot for 13.7:1 at typical highway cruising to get good economy, but still maintain a cooler running engine.

Thanks TC. This is just what I'm looking for.

I don't presonally know any tuners to go to for answers, so I'm just guessing at this.

Chief

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #3 on:** March 19, 2007, 12:50:43 PM »

Quote from: Chief on March 19, 2007, 12:45:33 PM

Thanks TC. This is just what I'm looking for.

I don't presonally know any tuners to go to for answers, so I'm just guessing at this.

Chief

I've picked a couple of 'em's brains for as much information as I could get, and that seemed to be the consensus of thought.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #4 on:** March 19, 2007, 02:49:26 PM »

For a general map / good running bike I would suggest 13.7 through most of your map for fuel economy and at 80 - 100 percent throttle look at 13.4 to 13.0. I would also look at advancing the timing in both of those places 4 degrees at 80 and 6 degrees at 100 throttle and back off if you see pinging. This should give you a nicer mix of fuel economy and playing power without fear of burning up a motor provided your efficiencies are correct and can be verified on a dyno to be sure your good to go.

Chief · « **Reply #5 on:** March 19, 2007, 03:07:09 PM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 19, 2007, 02:49:26 PM

For a general map / good running bike I would suggest 13.7 through most of your map for fuel economy and at 80 - 100 percent throttle look at 13.4 to 13.0. I would also look at advancing the timing in both of those places 4 degrees at 80 and 6 degrees at 100 throttle and back off if you see pinging. This should give you a nicer mix of fuel economy and playing power without fear of burning up a motor provided your efficiencies are correct and can be verified on a dyno to be sure your good to go.

Thanks Unbalanced,

Sounds like a good strategy.

Chief

Rhino · « **Reply #6 on:** March 19, 2007, 08:17:49 PM »

Hello All,

After fiddling with my Zippers Closed Loop AutoTune, I have found, on the SEUC 110 map, they have tuned for a compromise between economy and power. Most of the cruising and low end is set for 14.1, to 13.5, 13.5 after 2800 rpm for cruising. More RPM, more heat, so they richened it a bit if you are doing higher rpm cruising. Anyway, at the high end, lets say 60 degrees throttle to 87 (max) degrees throttle, they had it set for 12.5 across the board at higher RPM's. Now keep in mind that many factors come in to play. The actual AFR may not be what it says, due to a variety of things, like temperature, altitude, head temp, etc. But I am one to experiment. So I decided to lean out the actual AFR maps from 50 degress throttle at 2800 rpm up, to a leaner 13.1.

On the auto tune, I found that this did give better economy, but it ran a bit hotter, and, my plugs were a bit on the white side.

Yesterday, while lean, to check out the economy side of things, I ran with Unbalanced. It confirmed one thing for the day. That he, in his wisdom, did manage to eek out a win. (downplayed here...) His plugs look great, but his economy in play mode is down too. My mileage was better, no bigt deal except it did indicate, more fuel more power. And like I said, what you are seeing with AFR, it has some variables in the software.

Harry: I know you will make your comments soon.

Anyway, at this AFR, I found I lost a bit of pep., so this afternoon, after checking things out again, I did stay lean on the 0-2800 rpm line, and increased fuel to 12.1 for the 2800rpm up line, changing to this setting on the map only at 50degrees throttle up to the max of 87. (note: Zippers uses degress of throttle vs percentages, as others do)

So in conclusion, I think a full point richer will make a difference on my experimnet. I look forward to the next run soon.

Rhino (FastestJester w caveat)

Unbalanced · « **Reply #7 on:** March 19, 2007, 08:47:03 PM »

Ronnie,

Since you brought it up,

I keep hearing from you woulda, coulda, shoulda, if only I had.....

Sounds like AJ is going to have to spend some more money on that perty motosickle he has.

I have your new signature all picked out, it should say at least I beat AJ hehe

SBB · « **Reply #8 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:01:38 PM »

AJ

Don't take that from them.
If you count horsepower per dollar spent then you are way ahead of all of them.
Let me know when your ready for a few ponies and I will introduce you to the right people.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #9 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:08:38 PM »

Okay guys,

My t-max auto-tune came with the standard Zippers 13.1 afr. I have been leaning it out for freeway riding to 13.8. Should I also be leaning out the idle and off idle afr too? Those are in the 13.1 range. Have I been tweaking in the wrong areas? And 13.1 is richer (more fuel), than 3.8 right? I just want to make sure I am going in the right direction.

Thanks.

ESJ JESTER · « **Reply #10 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:13:24 PM »

Yes 13.1 is richer.. 12 is even richer. 3.8 might need triple spark plug heads to fire it but boy oh boy a plug in the tail pipe and it will look like a top fueler on steeroids!!! just kiddin...

Hoist! · « **Reply #11 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:13:43 PM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 19, 2007, 09:08:38 PM

Okay guys,

My t-max auto-tune came with the standard Zippers 13.1 afr. I have been leaning it out for freeway riding to 13.8. Should I also be leaning out the idle and off idle afr too? Those are in the 13.1 range. Have I been tweaking in the wrong areas? And 13.1 is richer (more fuel), than 3.8 right? I just want to make sure I am going in the right direction.

Thanks.

It's called AFR, meaning Air Fuel Ratio, stated as 13.1:1 for example. Therefore the higher the first number the more air, or leaner. The lower the ratio, the richer. You should be a little richer at idle and WFO than the cruising range. The expert tuners here can guide you better on the AFR's at various RPM's, but the bottom and top should be richer than the middle. Hoist!

Rhino · « **Reply #12 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:20:30 PM »

On the Autotune, in the AFR ratios, the HIGHER the number, the LEANER you are. The reference is 13.1 parts AIR, to one part fuel.

I did not change the low end numbers, but I did change SLIGHTLY the transition from the starting gate postion to the high rpm cruising from 13.0 to 1, to 12.2 to 1 at the 50 or so degree marks to WOT, whcih is 87 degrees me thing, only after 2800 rpm. This should provide the stock fuel mileage, but boost it up for WOT operation.

Hope this helps.

RE SB,

The game is not how exotic we can get....yet... the idea is to make the apples to apples competion work. I am working on that part, while Harry is too. I just happen to have a known quantity to play with, while Harry is using his genius to make it work. Same diff, I will hold that stock title, might just take another day or two.

Rhino(fastestjester)

Rhino · « **Reply #13 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:24:40 PM »

Hey IronHorse, could you please clarify if your running with the o2 sensors? Your comment about the autotune set for 13.1 should be shaded, and autotune, o2 sensors detected should have been noted, unless you are just running the zippers ECM without them. Lemme know I can help

Rhino (fastestjesterinonemoreday)

Hoist! · « **Reply #14 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:29:35 PM »

If you guys wanna play around and have some real fun, get their Wego II AFR Monitor System http://www.zippersperformance.com/catalogue/showproduct.asp?cat=588&prod=2129 Then you'll really know what's going on. Hoist!

Ironhorse · « **Reply #15 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:31:44 PM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 19, 2007, 09:24:40 PM

Hey IronHorse, could you please clarify if your running with the o2 sensors? Your comment about the autotune set for 13.1 should be shaded, and autotune, o2 sensors detected should have been noted, unless you are just running the zippers ECM without them. Lemme know I can help

Rhino (fastestjesterinonemoreday)

Rhino,

I am running the Auto-Tune T-max with the two O2 sensors. It's the full Zippers kit, ECM, TB and air cleaner. I think maybe I have EVERYTHING all wrong. When I changed the settings from 13.1 to 13.8, did I just go from 13 parts air and 1 part fuel, to 13 parts air and 8 parts fuel, there by increasing fuel and losing mpgs?

Mark

Hoist! · « **Reply #16 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:35:27 PM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 19, 2007, 09:31:44 PM

Rhino,

I am running the Auto-Tune T-max with the two O2 sensors. It's the full Zippers kit, ECM, TB and air cleaner. I think maybe I have EVERYTHING all wrong. When I changed the settings from 13.1 to 13.8, did I just go from 13 parts air and 1 part fuel, to 13 parts air and 8 parts fuel, there by increasing fuel and losing mpgs?

Mark

IH, I don't know the AT but 13,8 is 13,8 parts of air. It's always Parts of Air to Parts of fuel, with fuel being one. Hoist!

Unbalanced · « **Reply #17 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:36:30 PM »

Hoist,

The Wego II is a product made by Daytona Twin Tec the originator for closed loop AFR Systems. They are based in Daytona Beach off Beville Road.

Problem with using it right now is the same problem people with the T-Max are having with the bungs. The rinehart bungs on the 07's need to be moved for the front cylinder. Once that happens you upload your map for SERT or PC and then run it for up to an hour with the scan tool and it will tell you what changes to make to your maps to get the target A/F desired.

Hoist! · « **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:38:53 PM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 19, 2007, 09:36:30 PM

Hoist,

The Wego II is a product made by Daytona Twin Tec the originator for closed loop AFR Systems. They are based in Daytona Beach off Beville Road.

Problem with using it right now is the same problem people with the T-Max are having with the bungs. The rinehart bungs on the 07's need to be moved for the front cylinder. Once that happens you upload your map for SERT or PC and then run it for up to an hour with the scan tool and it will tell you what changes to make to your maps to get the target A/F desired.

Harry, can it share the O2 sensor from the AT? Hoist!

Rhino · « **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:40:04 PM »

Nope, 13.1 or 13.8, it is only an air ratio you can adjust. It is always to 1 for fuel. so 13.1 is richer than 13.8.

Best also check out your software, look in closed loop module and make sure you have closed loop selected. If you are changin fuel across the board, you must have AFR override selected. Not neccessary, since auto tune give you all the adjustables for idle, cruising and high end, on each of the 32 different maps available. The base map provided from Zippers is pretty close, but it is a compromise between fuel economy and power. Nice thing is you can change high end fuel, and maintain the good economy at the lower ends. Again, if you have the o2 sensors, make sure autotune, close dloop is enabled.

They just released a comprehensive manual which gives a bunch more detail too.

Rhino etc.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:41:48 PM »

Quote from: Hoist on March 19, 2007, 09:35:27 PM

IH, I don't know the AT but 13,8 is 13,8 parts of air. It's always Parts of Air to Parts of fuel, with fuel being one. Hoist!

That's what I thought. Maybe I'm not a dimwitted after all.
So,.....changing my T-MAX afr from 13.1 to 13.8 just added .7 more parts of air to the existing fuel, thereby leaning it.

Right?

Unbalanced · « **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:42:41 PM »

When you buy the WEGO II it comes with the same VW wide band sensors made by bosch I think it is. So no they couldnt share it you would use one product or the other, but the same bungs. WEGO using a Deutsch Connector pinned out for their product while I am sure T-Max has it pinned out for its setup.

Same Wide Band Sensor though. I would setup a deutsch connector for pins 1 / 4 on the accessory plug under the seat infront of the tank and use that for the WEGO if it were me nice and clean and easy to access.

Unbalanced · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:43:22 PM »

Yes Hoist you leaned it out a bit more

Rhino · « **Reply #23 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:47:01 PM »

Just to make things a bit more complicated, it is not AFR always that gives the best indicator. If you can look at the exhaust temperature, and the CO2, you can also find out which AFR runs best in your machine. Auto tuners electronics wizards have used this testing for a few years now. Problem is to find one that can measure the gases in PPM's, and tune to that, then adjust the AFR. Or, borrow a dyno, and run the bike at cruise with cruisecontrol, and do live tuning. It's simple with the ZIppers, as long as the dyno has a inertial brake sys on it. But the bottom line is are you going for best performance on the street with what the stock setup has? I think so, becsue the current setup witll only do so much. And I want to find out, with the stock setup I have, what works the best for tuning, BEFORE I add a cam, compression and headwork for flo.

Rhino

Rhino · « **Reply #24 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:48:48 PM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 19, 2007, 09:41:48 PM

That's what I thought. Maybe I'm not a dimwitted after all.
So,.....changing my T-MAX afr from 13.1 to 13.8 just added .7 more parts of air to the existing fuel, thereby leaning it.

Right?

That's right, but check to make sure you did not do the AFR override in the closed loop page.

Rhino

hard10 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:54:27 PM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 19, 2007, 08:47:03 PM

Sounds like AJ is going to have to spend some more money on that perty motosickle he has.

I'm planning the bank robbery now.

I have your new signature all picked out, it should say at least I beat AJ
Rhino (FastestJester w caveat)
Rhino (fastestjesterinonemoreday)

Chipster, after the robbery, let's get with your boys and put some ponies in my 110. Then we'll see who can run!

Twolanerider · « **Reply #26 on:** March 19, 2007, 10:04:08 PM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 19, 2007, 09:31:44 PM

Rhino,

I am running the Auto-Tune T-max with the two O2 sensors. It's the full Zippers kit, ECM, TB and air cleaner. I think maybe I have EVERYTHING all wrong. When I changed the settings from 13.1 to 13.8, did I just go from 13 parts air and 1 part fuel, to 13 parts air and 8 parts fuel, there by increasing fuel and losing mpgs?

Mark

IH, you're ok. You're just not seeing the full ratio. Think of it like this:

13.1:1 or 13.8:1 The first half of the ratio is air and the second is fuel.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #27 on:** March 20, 2007, 12:24:38 AM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on March 19, 2007, 10:04:08 PM

IH, you're ok. You're just not seeing the full ratio. Think of it like this:

13.1:1 or 13.8:1 The first half of the ratio is air and the second is fuel.

.....And since the fuel stays the same at 1 all I can do is either add more air or take away air.

Chief · « **Reply #28 on:** March 20, 2007, 08:44:23 AM »

Quote from: Hoist on March 19, 2007, 09:13:43 PM

It's called AFR, meaning Air Fuel Ratio, stated as 13.1:1 for example. Therefore the higher the first number the more air, or leaner. The lower the ratio, the richer. You should be a little richer at idle and WFO than the cruising range. The expert tuners here can guide you better on the AFR's at various RPM's, but the bottom and top should be richer than the middle. Hoist!

Is that something like a nice rack, ample badonkadonk and a trim waiste?

Honky Tonk Badonkadonk

Chief

Chief · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2007, 08:51:15 AM »

Quote from: Hoist on March 19, 2007, 09:29:35 PM

If you guys wanna play around and have some real fun, get their Wego II AFR Monitor System http://www.zippersperformance.com/catalogue/showproduct.asp?cat=588&prod=2129 Then you'll really know what's going on. Hoist!

I'm using the same type of system, but I'm using the Daytona Sensors Twin-Scan II+ with WEGO IID. It gives me the info I need for tuning the PC.

Twin Scan II+ Tuning Aid for Screamin Eagle® Race Tuner (SERT) and Dynojet Power Commander

Chuck

<EDIT> I just clicked on your link, and that is actually the original 1 channel Daytona system. The CD even says Twin-Tec on it. The system I am using is their two-channel (2 WB O2 sensors) so I can measure both cylinders at once.(/EDIT>

Chief · « **Reply #30 on:** March 20, 2007, 09:24:51 AM »

What I'm looking to do is come up with an AFR Command Map like the one below. The cells I have listed, are the Power Commander tuning cells, and the AFR values I have are what I would think would be good.

Comments?

Chief

Ironhorse · « **Reply #31 on:** March 20, 2007, 10:14:38 AM »

Quote from: Chief on March 20, 2007, 09:24:51 AM

What I'm looking to do is come up with an AFR Command Map like the one below. The cells I have listed, are the Power Commander tuning cells, and the AFR values I have are what I would think would be good.

Comments?

Chief

Chief,

I like it. Is that a representation of the ideal MAP? If so, then I am richer in the lower TPS settings than I should be.

Chief · « **Reply #32 on:** March 20, 2007, 10:22:14 AM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 20, 2007, 10:14:38 AM

Chief,

I like it. Is that a representation of the ideal MAP? If so, then I am richer in the lower TPS settings than I should be.

I seriously doubt it. This is just what I drummed up in my head. I'm hoping, that with input from the experts here, we can come up with one. We'll have to fight and argue over just what is ideal, but I think we can come up with something that is satisfactory.

Chief

Unbalanced · « **Reply #33 on:** March 20, 2007, 10:50:56 AM »

Chief,

I think your being to aggressive for the fuel at 0-30 percent throttle. If you don't care about stopping for gas or possibly fouling plugs with traffic idles then your probably ok or if you were only talking about doing WOT dyno runs your probably ok, but I think you might be a little light for peak numbers at 80 percent throttle and 100 percent throttle.

At the higher RPM's your fuel should be increasing not decreasing so you would start at 13.8 to 1 and move down to 13.4 to one at the higher RPM's not the reverse.

If you were starting at a scratch point as I have already stated I would look at a starting point of 13.7 across the board and 13.4 at 80 percent and 13.0 at 100 percent and possibly more fuel depending on whats in the bike / flow etc at the upper end.

The information I got was that if your using the race tuner the cells that are 14.6 (map 84 RED Color) are denoted as the closed loop settings that the ECM takes over when your under 30 percent throttle. I have not been able to prove / disprove this, but it made sense. If harley is running at 14.6 at idle and your at 13.4 while they are to lean you are I think to rich for a non WOT daily run.

The other thing you will want to look at is once you get the tables the way you want them and the Volumetrics to back it up, you will want to go to 80 percent throttle and 100 percent throttle and play with the timing a little bit to get peak performance out of the engine. You will get pinging / knocking if you go to far so when you play with those numbers please be sure to be reserved and make changes only 1 increment at a time so your able to tell the net effect or what caused a problem also make sure the bike is at operating temps to be sure you get no pinging when you do this.

Hoist! · « **Reply #34 on:** March 20, 2007, 10:54:48 AM »

Quote from: Chief on March 20, 2007, 10:22:14 AM

I seriously doubt it. This is just what I drummed up in my head. I'm hoping, that with input from the experts here, we can come up with one. We'll have to fight and argue over just what is ideal, but I think we can come up with something that is satisfactory.

Chief

Since every engine is different, I don't see how setting up these cells blindly, just based on AFR, would be the ideal map. I would still think the only way to optimize the map would be on a Dyno. Why mess with it after that? And with the TM/AT, doesn't the program Automatically tune for optimum performance. I would expect it to. After all, that's why you would use that in the first place. What am I missing here?

Hoist!

Unbalanced · « **Reply #35 on:** March 20, 2007, 11:16:08 AM »

Hoist you are running a bit blind to start but chief has a WEGO and Ironhorse has the self adjusting T-Max. Ironhorse is safer overall as it can monitor and learn / change on the fly. Chief on the otherhand has to take his bike out and run it and hope that the initial efficiencies on the volumetric side are right. If the moco can run us at in some cases 18 to 1 ... I am sure that 30 minutes based on just fuel changes which for the most part are equal / richer than the moco that chief should probably be ok (disclaimer implied here).

Chief will go back after his run and most likely not touch his A/F but his Volumetrics will change and his timing when he decides to really fine tune his upper end power.

I would not suggest doing this unless you had one of these items or access to a dyno to prove / disprove your changes.

In regards to a dyno. The problem is the motor is going to be richer at the head than what the sniffer is going to tell you. getting a reading at 13 to 18 inches vs. 2 -6 inches from the head can give you a real difference in power. If it were not the case then the T-Max or the Twin TEc would have no value besides the inherent it allows you to change hardware without paying a dyno guy. The bikes with these closed loop systems are running much better than they were before, but the challenge is how good can anyone make a sert run which is something I am working on and obviously chief is too.

The dyno gets it pretty close if done right, the problem is it does not give real world load and rideability. Close yes, but for some not close enough which is why the WEGO and other products have made their way into our hands. It is also great for WOT runs where on the road you wouldnt be holding on for the speeds / wind etc it is just that much safer for that type of run. It is also good for the closed loop systems because most people never ride there or not often enough for the closed loop systems to learn and make the changes necessary.

Chief · « **Reply #36 on:** March 20, 2007, 11:20:10 AM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 20, 2007, 10:50:56 AM

Chief,

I think your being to aggressive for the fuel at 0-30 percent throttle. If you don't care about stopping for gas or possibly fouling plugs with traffic idles then your probably ok or if you were only talking about doing WOT dyno runs your probably ok, but I think you might be a little light for peak numbers at 80 percent throttle and 100 percent throttle.

At the higher RPM's your fuel should be increasing not decreasing so you would start at 13.8 to 1 and move down to 13.4 to one at the higher RPM's not the reverse.

If you were starting at a scratch point as I have already stated I would look at a starting point of 13.7 across the board and 13.4 at 80 percent and 13.0 at 100 percent and possibly more fuel depending on whats in the bike / flow etc at the upper end.

The information I got was that if your using the race tuner the cells that are 14.6 (map 84 RED Color) are denoted as the closed loop settings that the ECM takes over when your under 30 percent throttle. I have not been able to prove / disprove this, but it made sense. If harley is running at 14.6 at idle and your at 13.4 while they are to lean you are I think to rich for a non WOT daily run.

The other thing you will want to look at is once you get the tables the way you want them and the Volumetrics to back it up, you will want to go to 80 percent throttle and 100 percent throttle and play with the timing a little bit to get peak performance out of the engine. You will get pinging / knocking if you go to far so when you play with those numbers please be sure to be reserved and make changes only 1 increment at a time so your able to tell the net effect or what caused a problem also make sure the bike is at operating temps to be sure you get no pinging when you do this.

UB,

I like what you're saying. Here is the logic behind the different AFR's at different RPM for a fixed throttle:

If I am cruising, my throttle is somewhere between 10% and 20% with a cruise RPM of 2,500 - 3,000. If the RPM is higher than what it is for steady state cruise, it probably indicates I'm going down a hill. Remember, the throttle is fixed and the RPM is floating. If the RPM drops at fixed throttle, I'm going uphill, or bucking a nasty headwind.

Going downhill represents lighter load on the motor, so a little leaner mixture should be OK. Going uphill means the motor is working harder and a richer mixture makes sense to me.

Does this logic make sense, or am I over-thinking it? In all of this, my constant thought is about load on the motor. If the motor is working hard, I want a richer mixture. If it is loafing, leaner should be OK. Right?

As for the timing, I'm running +4 for 100% above 2,000 RPM, and -4 for 40, 60 and 80% from 1,000 to 2,000. These are the values that are in the Dynojet map for the 110.

Modified Target Map:

Chief

Unbalanced · « **Reply #37 on:** March 20, 2007, 11:34:16 AM »

Chief,

Like you I am playing with it, but based on scenarios and lots of time playing on the dyno and talking to the guys that most call experts I am inclined to believe that your too rich at low rpm's and a bit to lean on the higher rpm's.
In no way am I putting any slight on the way your doing this it is just my take at this point on what your doing.

I am personally after the snap of the throttle and decent mileage while still keeping infront of Rhino (Ronnie). Thus far I have accomplished most of that (subtle ding on ronnie) except the gas mileage as I am between 30-33 miles to the gallon atm, but I know I am rich on the bottom end (low rpm's), so that is the next small block to tackle. I will start by leaning up the low rpm ranges in thehope of keeping the snap and hoping to not have to giving up the power. I have to think I am on the right track and not that your not, but I am comparing to a semi known good config with the auto tune. I don't wish to derail you from your path as you might be smarter than us all in your thinking and come up with an even better idea. I would stay the path and see how you like it and from there you can always change.

-harry

Chief · « **Reply #38 on:** March 20, 2007, 11:38:02 AM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 20, 2007, 11:16:08 AM

Hoist you are running a bit blind to start but chief has a WEGO and Ironhorse has the self adjusting T-Max. Ironhorse is safer overall as it can monitor and learn / change on the fly. Chief on the otherhand has to take his bike out and run it and hope that the initial efficiencies on the volumetric side are right. If the moco can run us at in some cases 18 to 1 ... I am sure that 30 minutes based on just fuel changes which for the most part are equal / richer than the moco that chief should probably be ok (disclaimer implied here).

Chief will go back after his run and most likely not touch his A/F but his Volumetrics will change and his timing when he decides to really fine tune his upper end power.

I would not suggest doing this unless you had one of these items or access to a dyno to prove / disprove your changes.

In regards to a dyno. The problem is the motor is going to be richer at the head than what the sniffer is going to tell you. getting a reading at 13 to 18 inches vs. 2 -6 inches from the head can give you a real difference in power. If it were not the case then the T-Max or the Twin TEc would have no value besides the inherent it allows you to change hardware without paying a dyno guy. The bikes with these closed loop systems are running much better than they were before, but the challenge is how good can anyone make a sert run which is something I am working on and obviously chief is too.

The dyno gets it pretty close if done right, the problem is it does not give real world load and rideability. Close yes, but for some not close enough which is why the WEGO and other products have made their way into our hands. It is also great for WOT runs where on the road you wouldnt be holding on for the speeds / wind etc it is just that much safer for that type of run. It is also good for the closed loop systems because most people never ride there or not often enough for the closed loop systems to learn and make the changes necessary.

Harry,

This will be interesting because I'm running the Power Commander while you are running the SERT. The only control I have for fuel, is the adder tables. I don't have all the other tables the SERT has.

When I started out, I was using the map for a 96 inch motor which was not too bad. I tweaked on that for awhile, and then DJ came out with the map for the 110, SE A/C and Rineharts. I ran that one and it produced the following picture of for the rear cylinder when I started out tuning for 10% TPS.

After some tuning the lower TPS, I started working on the higher TPS stuff. My most recent run is below:

Things are getting better, but I'm not done yet. I'm having problems finding places to run. My current dyno road is marked 45, and I'm running up in the 80-90 range to get the higher revs. I need to find better roads, a VERY steep hill would be nice slow the acceleration. Damn bike gets it good.

I've got the scanner hooked into the Acc. switch so I don't record all the time (That's why the lower stuff is so sparse). I'm thinking of moving it to the horn wire to make toggling it on and off easier. The problem is that it only holds 3,600 data points, and at 5/sec, that's only 12 minutes of data.

Chief

Chief · « **Reply #39 on:** March 20, 2007, 11:42:10 AM »

Another tool I've got to play with is the Road Dyno: Road Dyno. When I get the AFR's that I THINK I like, I can start tweaking based on performance.

Chief

Unbalanced · « **Reply #40 on:** March 20, 2007, 11:44:59 AM »

Chief,

I sent you PM.

In regards to your WegoII. You may want to use the config I posted earlier on moving it to under the seat using the free accessory switch which is unused atm and can be used as switched and unswitched. I bought the extender piece which is a deutsch connector to turn it into 2 separage plugs and then bought a male deutsch connector 4 pin and some female deutsch connector pins and used pin lay out 1 / 4 do not use 1 / 2 there is not a good ground there as it is tied to the rear tailight.

This will help give good power to the WEGO.

Chief · « **Reply #41 on:** March 20, 2007, 11:50:36 AM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 20, 2007, 11:34:16 AM

Chief,

Like you I am playing with it, but based on scenarios and lots of time playing on the dyno and talking to the guys that most call experts I am inclined to believe that your too rich at low rpm's and a bit to lean on the higher rpm's.
In no way am I putting any slight on the way your doing this it is just my take at this point on what your doing.

I am personally after the snap of the throttle and decent mileage while still keeping infront of Rhino (Ronnie). Thus far I have accomplished most of that (subtle ding on ronnie) except the gas mileage as I am between 30-33 miles to the gallon atm, but I know I am rich on the bottom end (low rpm's), so that is the next small block to tackle. I will start by leaning up the low rpm ranges in thehope of keeping the snap and hoping to not have to giving up the power. I have to think I am on the right track and not that your not, but I am comparing to a semi known good config with the auto tune. I don't wish to derail you from your path as you might be smarter than us all in your thinking and come up with an even better idea. I would stay the path and see how you like it and from there you can always change.

-harry

Harry,

Don't worry about saying what you think. I'm soaking up everything trying to get a good handle on the topic. What's interesting is the different approaches we have. My whole approach is based on TPS. I've got some masking tape stuck on the throttle with the different throttle settings marked on them so I can nail the throttle to a set point and let the bike go. For me, the RPM is what it is. Before I marked the throttle, I didn't have any reference, except the tach, and it was too hit or miss. Now, I'll lock the throttle at 10% and just cruise down the road with fixed throttle and hope I don't run over anyone in my way, cuz' I ain't in favor of changin' the death grip I've got on the throttle.

Pinkie has stated she doesn't want me to do any of this stuff when she's on the bike. She's a smart woman.

Chief

Chief · « **Reply #42 on:** March 20, 2007, 11:52:53 AM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 20, 2007, 11:44:59 AM

Chief,

I sent you PM.

In regards to your WegoII. You may want to use the config I posted earlier on moving it to under the seat using the free accessory switch which is unused atm and can be used as switched and unswitched. I bought the extender piece which is a deutsch connector to turn it into 2 separage plugs and then bought a male deutsch connector 4 pin and some female deutsch connector pins and used pin lay out 1 / 4 do not use 1 / 2 there is not a good ground there as it is tied to the rear tailight.

This will help give good power to the WEGO.

I guess we were both typing at the same time. See above.

Chief

Rhino · « **Reply #43 on:** March 20, 2007, 01:36:35 PM »

Quote from: Hoist on March 20, 2007, 10:54:48 AM

Since every engine is different, I don't see how setting up these cells blindly, just based on AFR, would be the ideal map. I would still think the only way to optimize the map would be on a Dyno. Why mess with it after that? And with the TM/AT, doesn't the program Automatically tune for optimum performance. I would expect it to. After all, that's why you would use that in the first place. What am I missing here? Hoist!

The Thundermax has a map. The map was designed by pros. They insure that you will have a good running motor all across the band. They do it pretty well. After you put the TM & AT on your bike, it will autotune to the setting on the map THEY created. And again, it is not bad. But, taking into account different idiocycrasies of YOUR bike, they then leave room to play. For example, IMO, I would try adding a bit of fuel on the map for MORE power at the top end. Seems on MY bike, this works for more performance. But again, the map is good, and the AUTO TUNE will let your bike follow it carefully. That way you know exactly where each cell is regarding AFR. In MY case, running back the AFR from the high end stock number of 12.5 to a richer 12.1 worked for me. Other bikes may run in the leaner side, but I doubt it.

Bottom line, is you are only going to get so much for the stock config. You can play a little with timing too, but unless you know what you are doing, best leave it alone. The auto tune works wonders for holding the specific AFR's

I would also think it would be difficult, becasue of each bikes' differences, that you can ask Zuippers for a pure performance map for the 110 & AT. I think they did good, and the problem becomes, if I read this correctly, that again, each bike is slightly different. SO me, I add fuel, and it works. On an earlier thread, I mentioned that the AFR may not be the TRUE afr. It is also adjusted with timing, temperature and other variables for the targets. Hope this helps a bit.

Rhino(fasterjester)

Ironhorse · « **Reply #44 on:** March 20, 2007, 10:07:32 PM »

I guess if you have the T-Max auto tune, one option is to ride the bike with the PC hooked up and the software running in the data record mode. Then play back the data and see where it is fat and where it is lean, and make the changes. Because even though Zippers set an "ideal" MAP for the ECM, that does not mean it is the most practical. Or am I off here?

nixobilly · « **Reply #45 on:** March 20, 2007, 10:31:56 PM »

Gents,

Just following this thread to try to understand what I need to do to modify my Thundermax w/auto tune to get my bike to perform like I think it should for my riding.

I sure as hell dont know as much about tuning bikes like most of you do. I really like how my bike is performing after 500 miles of autotune. My bike seems to be running as cool as it used to with SERT map84 and performs a lot better but the gas milage sux for a touring bike. The default maps from Zippers will damn sure throw you off the bike if you are not careful! I'm not a drag racer and dont ride it at 70% or more of throttle. I dont know where y'all ride but that much throttle on my 110 would soon get me a handfull of tickets in any gear. I would like to get about 38 - 42 mpg in cruising range 2700-2900 (70-75 in 5th and 80-85 in 6th) out on the road. I dont want to go back to the lean conditions I experienced with the stock config but I might need to re-budget my gas costs and daily drive times for my 8k trip this summer to Nelson if I dont

.

I'm going to put tape on my throttle as suggested here so I can have a better understanding of my TPS vs RPM. I'll also keep watching this thread so I can see what the smart guys are saying.

I'm also going to put a link in the Zippers forums so they can jump in and make suggestions.

Continue on with the great discussion (I'm learning alot),

Respectfully,

Mark

Rhino · « **Reply #46 on:** March 20, 2007, 10:48:25 PM »

OK Boyz & Girls,

After running a bit faster than Harry tonight, I feel better. IH, in regards to the monitoring feature of the Auto Tune. It is interesting information to play back, and see what you ran, but here is the catch. The autoTune WILL do exactly what you want it to do. Meaning if you set an AFR, it will try and acheive the AFR. You can monitor the cyl temp, etc, but in short, the monitoring feature is what you can record, and then send that map to Zippers, and THEY can look in the back door, so to speak, and see more than what we can.

Secondly, I am finding that the AFR we are setting as stock, is for more economy than Performance. On my bike, after a run yesterday, I pulled the plugs to check them, and found them to be a bit whiteish. I came back and re-adjusted the autotune to enrich the AFR's slightly at the low end, and set 12.1 to 1 at WOT. As I have said in many earlier posts, I am not relying on the AFR's to be exact. I am using them as a reference to the power I can make. I have been incrementaly decreasing the AFR a point or two at a time, from the stock Zippers map at 12.5 at WOT down to 12.1. It is improving the performance, but I always make slow changes, and then, only one parameter at a time, and save it. Then, the autotune needs time to work, so you need to exercise the throttle on the road to see how it works. It will not be instantaneous, it will be gradual as the auto tuner learns the new curve.

Finally, for example, Harry is using the SERT and the WEGO recorder. The difference is that the WEGO RECORDS what the bike is putting out, vs, the AutoTune, which follows what you feed it. The theory is good, but for me, I am liking the base map that Zippers did, and then tweak a little from there. For me, the WEGO is an intersting device, but for me, the SERT becomes quite a chore to change, and then follow what the WEGO says to do. That is only my interpretation.

So in a perfect world, if the WEGO could interface with the AutoTune, then the recording process would show the actual AFR's and the actual other inportant details, but frankly, I think that the Zippers maps are close, and the minor tweaking is safer and will perform better. The WEGO is for more experienced dudes, who need that tiny bit of extra. JMHO.

Rhino (Ronnie) (fastestjesterperiod)

Ironhorse · « **Reply #47 on:** March 20, 2007, 11:05:37 PM »

Rhino,

I'm like NixoBilly,

I love the way the bike runs. I just want to get 38-42mpgs. Right now I am getting about 30, so I know there's some leaning to be done somewhere. I just don't know where. Like you, when I make adjustments they are very small. Most of my efforts have been directed at freeway riding using the tps@afr setting. Now I'm thinking I should be working elsewhere. I'm tempted to change the Zippers over all setting of 13.1 to 1, and raise it. But then again, maybe not.

You know I HAD a WEGOII that I bought when Dan Fitmaurice and I were trying to tune my old Marelli system long distance via e-mail. I sold it when I went to the Zippers auto-tune because I thought the data mode was the same thing. Now you tell me the Zippers data mode is not doing a real time afr read, only posting what the ECM is producing. Did I get that right?

Any suggestions where to start leaning?

Mark

Rhino · « **Reply #48 on:** March 21, 2007, 10:29:54 PM »

IH,

You have not answered an earlier inquiry, telling me if the auto tune module is enabled. The way you are talking here, it's like you are on bypass. Let me know.

Rhino

Ironhorse · « **Reply #49 on:** March 22, 2007, 01:42:37 AM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 21, 2007, 10:29:54 PM

IH,

You have not answered an earlier inquiry, telling me if the auto tune module is enabled. The way you are talking here, it's like you are on bypass. Let me know.

Rhino

Rhino,

As best I can tell it is on auto-tune. From the tool bar, it's CONFIGURE, then MODULE SETTINGS, then CLOSED LOOP PROCESSING. Or when opening a file, it's FILE, then NEW, then CLOSED LOOP FORMAT. Then while the engine is running I click MONITOR, and am able to call up the front and rear AFRs and other data.

I'm not being a smart ass, but that's the way I know if it is.
Would it help if I sent you my current MAP?

Mark

Rhino · « **Reply #50 on:** March 22, 2007, 09:22:12 PM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 22, 2007, 01:42:37 AM

Rhino,

As best I can tell it is on auto-tune. From the tool bar, it's CONFIGURE, then MODULE SETTINGS, then CLOSED LOOP PROCESSING. Or when opening a file, it's FILE, then NEW, then CLOSED LOOP FORMAT. Then while the engine is running I click MONITOR, and am able to call up the front and rear AFRs and other data.

I'm not being a smart ass, but that's the way I know if it is.
Would it help if I sent you my current MAP?

Mark

Not really, becasue the actual map is not accessible. Also it sounds like you are in auto tune. Select 1. configure 2. Clsed Loop Module Settings 3. Make sure the Closed Lopp Pricessing andAuto Tune are checkd on the MAP side. Unles you are connected to the Module, you cant see the connection status of the MODULE> SO, hook it up and make sure the Module side ischecked too. DO NOT use the override, or any other overrides.

Make sure you followed the instructions carefully for the IAC AUTO setup. Tis is a very critical step. f your bike is hot, wait till the next day and do that run from a cold engine to 289 degrees. Then change that setting for YOUR bike as per the manual. It is self explanatory. From that point on, the map Zippers created by the boyz up north will work exceptionally well. Make sure you selected the correct map, for example, 110, Rineharts stock baffle, air cleaner wheter Zipps 2.125, or 2.3/4 etc. The map you profile, if the components are matched on the map selection, will work well.

The changes I have made, as stated earlier, are SMALL tweaks from the original. Each time I make a change, I save it as a new map ID and load it up. Then I give it some time to acclimate to the bike and it's new settings. If you are doing anything to change it, you should probably be richening it up, but a point at a time.

I will help anyone that asks regarding the AutoTune, and I truly like it and believe in it. It is quite an ingenious device without question.

If one looks at the AFR tables, here is one example. Around 2000-2300 ranges in the maps, I noted they were leaned out compared to the other settings, close to 11.7 degrees of throttle. (That is 0 for those still thinking in percentages) SO,naturally I enrichended it a bit to match other AFRS. Well, Zippers did that for a good reason. The richening resulted in a pop on decel. Duh, I put that back.

Unless you have a bike with really special circumstances, you should have a good match found withing the ZIppers tables. USE IT.

Finally, someone mentioned taping a mark on the Throttle. It aint gonna work with the ZIppers, use the Point Trak while monitoring.

Rhino(fastestautotunedjesterontheplanet)

Jester_Red07 · « **Reply #51 on:** March 22, 2007, 10:38:10 PM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 22, 2007, 09:22:12 PM

Not really, becasue the actual map is not accessible. Also it sounds like you are in auto tune. Select 1. configure 2. Clsed Loop Module Settings 3. Make sure the Closed Lopp Pricessing andAuto Tune are checkd on the MAP side. Unles you are connected to the Module, you cant see the connection status of the MODULE> SO, hook it up and make sure the Module side ischecked too. DO NOT use the override, or any other overrides.

Make sure you followed the instructions carefully for the IAC AUTO setup. Tis is a very critical step. f your bike is hot, wait till the next day and do that run from a cold engine to 289 degrees. Then change that setting for YOUR bike as per the manual. It is self explanatory. From that point on, the map Zippers created by the boyz up north will work exceptionally well. Make sure you selected the correct map, for example, 110, Rineharts stock baffle, air cleaner wheter Zipps 2.125, or 2.3/4 etc. The map you profile, if the components are matched on the map selection, will work well.

The changes I have made, as stated earlier, are SMALL tweaks from the original. Each time I make a change, I save it as a new map ID and load it up. Then I give it some time to acclimate to the bike and it's new settings. If you are doing anything to change it, you should probably be richening it up, but a point at a time.

I will help anyone that asks regarding the AutoTune, and I truly like it and believe in it. It is quite an ingenious device without question.

If one looks at the AFR tables, here is one example. Around 2000-2300 ranges in the maps, I noted they were leaned out compared to the other settings, close to 11.7 degrees of throttle. (That is 0 for those still thinking in percentages) SO,naturally I enrichended it a bit to match other AFRS. Well, Zippers did that for a good reason. The richening resulted in a pop on decel. Duh, I put that back.

Unless you have a bike with really special circumstances, you should have a good match found withing the ZIppers tables. USE IT.

Finally, someone mentioned taping a mark on the Throttle. It aint gonna work with the ZIppers, use the Point Trak while monitoring.

Rhino(fastestautotunedjesterontheplanet)

Rhino,
could you give us a brief description of the point track and how to use it???
Thanks

Unbalanced · « **Reply #52 on:** March 22, 2007, 11:10:55 PM »

Chief,

How many samples are you using when your deriving your numbers?

Ironhorse · « **Reply #53 on:** March 23, 2007, 01:14:14 AM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 22, 2007, 09:22:12 PM

Not really, becasue the actual map is not accessible. Also it sounds like you are in auto tune. Select 1. configure 2. Clsed Loop Module Settings 3. Make sure the Closed Lopp Pricessing andAuto Tune are checkd on the MAP side. Unles you are connected to the Module, you cant see the connection status of the MODULE> SO, hook it up and make sure the Module side ischecked too. DO NOT use the override, or any other overrides.

Make sure you followed the instructions carefully for the IAC AUTO setup. Tis is a very critical step. f your bike is hot, wait till the next day and do that run from a cold engine to 289 degrees. Then change that setting for YOUR bike as per the manual. It is self explanatory. From that point on, the map Zippers created by the boyz up north will work exceptionally well. Make sure you selected the correct map, for example, 110, Rineharts stock baffle, air cleaner wheter Zipps 2.125, or 2.3/4 etc. The map you profile, if the components are matched on the map selection, will work well.

The changes I have made, as stated earlier, are SMALL tweaks from the original. Each time I make a change, I save it as a new map ID and load it up. Then I give it some time to acclimate to the bike and it's new settings. If you are doing anything to change it, you should probably be richening it up, but a point at a time.

I will help anyone that asks regarding the AutoTune, and I truly like it and believe in it. It is quite an ingenious device without question.

If one looks at the AFR tables, here is one example. Around 2000-2300 ranges in the maps, I noted they were leaned out compared to the other settings, close to 11.7 degrees of throttle. (That is 0 for those still thinking in percentages) SO,naturally I enrichended it a bit to match other AFRS. Well, Zippers did that for a good reason. The richening resulted in a pop on decel. Duh, I put that back.

Unless you have a bike with really special circumstances, you should have a good match found withing the ZIppers tables. USE IT.

Finally, someone mentioned taping a mark on the Throttle. It aint gonna work with the ZIppers, use the Point Trak while monitoring.

Rhino(fastestautotunedjesterontheplanet)

Rhino,

My bike is in auto tune and it runs great. The IAC is set properly too.
I just want to get some better mpgs. I guess what I am asking, is where should I pull fuel in the MAP?

Mark

Chief · « **Reply #54 on:** March 23, 2007, 09:12:08 AM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 22, 2007, 11:10:55 PM

Chief,

How many samples are you using when your deriving your numbers?

Good question Harry. I have not changed from the default, which I believe is 5.

Got your VM just before dinner last night. I'll shout back at you today.

Chief

Unbalanced · « **Reply #55 on:** March 23, 2007, 09:31:42 AM »

Chief,

What I found is if you only use 5 samples your going to find that your having to adjust the tables almost every single run with lots of disparity from run to run. The numbers will just keep bouncing around. Try using 15 to 20 and at the lower end and 10 to 15 at the top end when your just gathering data. When I was testing idle and up to 5 percent I used 25 and found the numbers settled in a whole lot better.

Have you verified for whatever reason that your Thermo gun is accurate like in the refrigerator or at an air conditioning duct? Before you go off and drive yourself nuts worrying just thought it might be a good sanity check.

Chief · « **Reply #56 on:** March 23, 2007, 10:04:13 AM »

Quote from: Unbalanced on March 23, 2007, 09:31:42 AM

Chief,

What I found is if you only use 5 samples your going to find that your having to adjust the tables almost every single run with lots of disparity from run to run. The numbers will just keep bouncing around. Try using 15 to 20 and at the lower end and 10 to 15 at the top end when your just gathering data. When I was testing idle and up to 5 percent I used 25 and found the numbers settled in a whole lot better.

Have you verified for whatever reason that your Thermo gun is accurate like in the refrigerator or at an air conditioning duct? Before you go off and drive yourself nuts worrying just thought it might be a good sanity check.

Since I've been doing transients, I've kept it low. I'm sampling at 5/sec, so the default setting of 5 means I need to be in each cell for 1 second. That's kind of hard when doing pulls at higher throttle settings.

For steady state cruise setting I'll be able to move it up to smooth out the data.

As for the temp gun, it's a professional gun, and I spent the higher bucks on it so I could believe accuracy claims of 1%. I guess I could boil a brick and shoot it to check the temps, but right now, I don't doubt it's accuracy yet. That jug is hot, and my well calibrated fingertips verified it when I tried to touch it.

It's time to unleash the engineer inside and be very methodical in determing just what is going on. Time to get into data analysis mode.

Thanks for everyone's interest and help on this.

Chief

Rhino · « **Reply #57 on:** March 24, 2007, 10:13:06 AM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 23, 2007, 01:14:14 AM

Rhino,

My bike is in auto tune and it runs great. The IAC is set properly too.
I just want to get some better mpgs. I guess what I am asking, is where should I pull fuel in the MAP?

Mark

I think you answered your own question "it runs great". As far as mileage, there is no correct answer. Most really don't care as long as they get 160 mi to a tank or much more. Rideing style has a lot to do with that. Personally, I would NOT go leaner than a provided map. You know when the sticker on a Hummer says 21 mpg at the dealership? Try 12 mpg in the real world.

Rhino(besttunedjesterbyzippers)

Ironhorse · « **Reply #58 on:** March 25, 2007, 01:53:45 PM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 24, 2007, 10:13:06 AM

I think you answered your own question "it runs great". As far as mileage, there is no correct answer. Most really don't care as long as they get 160 mi to a tank or much more. Rideing style has a lot to do with that. Personally, I would NOT go leaner than a provided map. You know when the sticker on a Hummer says 21 mpg at the dealership? Try 12 mpg in the real world.

Rhino(besttunedjesterbyzippers)

The thing I don't understand is that a lot of bikes with the same or more radical builds get better milage, and I am a very conservative rider. Others get in the high 30-low 40s, and I get low 30s. The most I get our of a tank is about 130 miles. When my bike was "stock" M&M tuned with an SERT, I got 38-42mpgs regularly. When I went to the Zippers M&M Conversion kit, I got 26mpgs. When I converted over to Delphi with auto-tune it came up to 30mpgs. Nothing in my build or riding style has changed, so I am inclined to believe that getting 38-42mpgs back is possible. While 30mpgs is acceptable to Zippers, I'd like to think I can improve it.

Rhino, what kind of mpgs do you get?

kbiforce · « **Reply #59 on:** March 25, 2007, 06:45:46 PM »

Hello to all! I have been watching this thread with great interest. I was on the fence for quite a while about the TMAT but decided to go for it. While I am waiting for my unit to arrive, I have been watching for replies on mileage. Seems everyone is happy with the driveability end of the TMAT, but what about mileage figures? I just got back from a road test after putting tape on the throttle and marking where I ride at cruising/ freeeway speeds. From what I can tell from looking at the PowerCommander light segments, 60mph @ 2,500 rpm is approx. 20 % throttle and 74 @ 3,000 rpm is approx. 30%. Does this sound about right to all of you? I don't know if I should run the standard 13.0-1 or change the cruise right away. I agree with the other posts about keeping mileage in the upper 30's to low 40's. Let me know what all of you think out there. ( yeah, I'm getting excited about the TMAX!)

Rhino · « **Reply #60 on:** March 26, 2007, 11:29:14 AM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 25, 2007, 01:53:45 PM

Rhino, what kind of mpgs do you get?

On another post I mentioned 2 up riding, warm, around 80 degrees, 345 lbs with the both of us, got 36.5. Am currently runnning another tank solo, but two things happen. By myself I run more agressively (naturally) but the bike, being 122 lbs lighter, should give me another mpg or so. I also know if my cruise is set to 75-80 mph, I would expect no more than 33 or so. Running in 6th does add more TPosition, hence more resistance etc. I think if you look back and figure it out by yourself you might analyze this better. It is difficult long distance to know what you got there. Sounds like you should use the base map, and be satisfied with that. Tweaking it long distance is not a good thing.

Rhino

Ironhorse · « **Reply #61 on:** March 27, 2007, 09:21:57 AM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 26, 2007, 11:29:14 AM

On another post I mentioned 2 up riding, warm, around 80 degrees, 345 lbs with the both of us, got 36.5. Am currently runnning another tank solo, but two things happen. By myself I run more agressively (naturally) but the bike, being 122 lbs lighter, should give me another mpg or so. I also know if my cruise is set to 75-80 mph, I would expect no more than 33 or so. Running in 6th does add more TPosition, hence more resistance etc. I think if you look back and figure it out by yourself you might analyze this better. It is difficult long distance to know what you got there. Sounds like you should use the base map, and be satisfied with that. Tweaking it long distance is not a good thing.

Rhino

Well I ride solo, and am very conservative. I would LOVE to get 33mpgs.

Mark

JCZ · « **Reply #62 on:** March 27, 2007, 11:26:18 AM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 27, 2007, 09:21:57 AM

Well I ride solo, and am very conservative. I would LOVE to get 33mpgs.

Mark

Yea, me too! But then we're burning Calif. gas Mark. As we (me, Andy and Jon) did our cross country trip last year we all noticed that we were getting much better mileage back east (and paying much less for gas, too!). You know about all the crap that CARB adds to our fuel out here

And now they're doing it to diesel fuel, too.

Rhino · « **Reply #63 on:** March 27, 2007, 11:34:19 AM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 27, 2007, 09:21:57 AM

Well I ride solo, and am very conservative. I would LOVE to get 33mpgs.

Mark

I still think you are missing the point. You need to be more pro active on your changes, and let us know. We have been giving suggestions, but I fail to get reply and reports on those changes you are making. You will see a difference in your economy if you followed our leads. The bad gas so to speak would not affect your mileage so much as weaker combustion and pinging potential. The autotune will take care of most of that, as long as you are running a premium grade fuel of 91-93 octane. That octane maintains the burn.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #64 on:** March 27, 2007, 02:58:31 PM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 27, 2007, 11:34:19 AM

I still think you are missing the point. You need to be more pro active on your changes, and let us know. We have been giving suggestions, but I fail to get reply and reports on those changes you are making. You will see a difference in your economy if you followed our leads. The bad gas so to speak would not affect your mileage so much as weaker combustion and pinging potential. The autotune will take care of most of that, as long as you are running a premium grade fuel of 91-93 octane. That octane maintains the burn.

Rhino, I thought I would start first by leaning it out on at freeway and cruising speeds, so here is where I made my changes.

My Zippers base was 13.19 to 1. I started in the AFR vs TPS at 1792 rpms. At 14.8 degrees of throttle, I raised the box up two positions. I did that until the third box over was peaked at 13.831 to 1 afr, then I tapered the curve back down until the third box over, (throttle position 31.467 degrees) from the peak was back level at 13.19 to 1. I did the exact same type of curve at 2048rpms, except this time the two middle boxes were peaked at 14.005 to 1. I did the same thing at 2304 rpms, starting with raising the box at 14.8 degrees throttle, raising the line until the two center boxes were at 14.005, and dropping the curve untill the throttle position box at 31.467 degrees was at 13.91 to 1 afr. I did this through each consecutive AFR vs TPS stopping at 3840 rpms. In that last one, I started raising the box at 31.467 throttle, to 13.253 to 1 afr, peaked it at 14.005 to 1 afr, and dropped it back down until the 51.492 throttle position was back at the 13.021 to 1 afr. I'm thinking this may be leaning out the freeway and cruising ranges. I may be wall off, and probably am, but that is what I have done so far.

Now I'm thinking I need to lean out the off idle and low end stuff too, but dn't know where to start.

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #65 on:** March 27, 2007, 05:38:39 PM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 27, 2007, 11:34:19 AM

I still think you are missing the point. You need to be more pro active on your changes, and let us know. We have been giving suggestions, but I fail to get reply and reports on those changes you are making. You will see a difference in your economy if you followed our leads. The bad gas so to speak would not affect your mileage so much as weaker combustion and pinging potential. The autotune will take care of most of that, as long as you are running a premium grade fuel of 91-93 octane. That octane maintains the burn.

I was under the impression that the composition of the fuel can also have a fairly dramatic impact on fuel mileage...for instance, the 10% ethanol fuels, while having the same octane rating, burn less efficiently, so fuel ecomomy suffers.

Rhino · « **Reply #66 on:** March 27, 2007, 09:36:45 PM »

Quote from: TCnBham on March 27, 2007, 05:38:39 PM

I was under the impression that the composition of the fuel can also have a fairly dramatic impact on fuel mileage...for instance, the 10% ethanol fuels, while having the same octane rating, burn less efficiently, so fuel ecomomy suffers.

OK, I will have to agree .. and disagree... my info indicates while there are many variables that affect fuel economy (weather, bike condition, road grade, tire pressure, etc.), fuel economy with ethanol-enriched fuels may decrease by about 2 percent in fuel-injected applications. So bikes that average 30 MPG on the highway would average about 29.4 with ethanol-enriched fuel. This is only a slight variance that probably won’t be noticed by the average rider. .

Gasoline enriched with ethanol performs in much the same way that regular gasoline does, and actually surpasses regular gasoline in key performance categories.

All auto manufacturers who sell cars in the United States approve fuels enriched with up to 10 percent ethanol — and many recommend it for its clean-burning benefits. Millions of cars in countries like Brazil run on 100 percent ethanol without difficulty. Right now, ethanol’s use in the United States is currently limited to ethanol-gasoline blends. I cannot comment on carbuerator use, but the EFI systems compensate dramatically. JMHO mixed with facts..

Rhino(fastestethanolfreejesternorthoftheborder)

Rhino · « **Reply #67 on:** March 27, 2007, 09:48:42 PM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 27, 2007, 02:58:31 PM

Rhino, I thought I would start first by leaning it out on at freeway and cruising speeds, so here is where I made my changes.

Now I'm thinking I need to lean out the off idle and low end stuff too, but dn't know where to start.

For RPM and TPS, starting at 2816RPM and UP to redline, use this map. If you make any changes in this rpm range and higher, go richer, by lowering the boxes. If you want, go one tick LOWER on each. Then, copy this page, (controlc) and paste it into each succeding higher RPM range. That will certainly be exactly where you want to be. From 2816 RPM and LOWER RPM, I will accumulate each band and post for you. Match them and you will have a sweet running Jester. Stay tuned for more later on.

Rhino

Ironhorse · « **Reply #68 on:** March 27, 2007, 10:30:26 PM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 27, 2007, 09:48:42 PM

For RPM and TPS, starting at 2816RPM and UP to redline, use this map. If you make any changes in this rpm range and higher, go richer, by lowering the boxes. If you want, go one tick LOWER on each. Then, copy this page, (controlc) and paste it into each succeding higher RPM range. That will certainly be exactly where you want to be. From 2816 RPM and LOWER RPM, I will accumulate each band and post for you. Match them and you will have a sweet running Jester. Stay tuned for more later on.

Rhino

Jester, I REALLY appreciate the help with tuning.

For my own understanding, this MAP should be used for all AFR vs TPS settings from 2816rpm up to redline. And any changes should be to richen the AFR by moving the boxes down. Correct?

Thanks

icybay · « **Reply #69 on:** March 27, 2007, 11:04:20 PM »

Then, copy this page, (controlc) and paste it into each succeding higher RPM range.

Just exactly how are you doing this?? I can't copy and paste from one RPM to another. I have version 2006.17.9

Also are you getting the "13.542" number off the map or are you multiplying clicks by .06 (or whatever) and adding them to the known value? . I cant click on a point and get a reading.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #70 on:** March 27, 2007, 11:17:14 PM »

Quote from: icybay on March 27, 2007, 11:04:20 PM

Then, copy this page, (controlc) and paste it into each succeding higher RPM range.

Just exactly how are you doing this?? I can't copy and paste from one RPM to another. I have version 2006.17.9

Also are you getting the "13.542" number off the map or are you multiplying clicks by .06 (or whatever) and adding them to the known value? . I cant click on a point and get a reading.

Icybay,

I don't know how he is copying and pasting either. I am probably going to have to do all the MAP changes manually.
To read a point, or "box", just put the arrow on it, and hit the space bar on your keyboard.

Ironhorse · « **Reply #71 on:** March 27, 2007, 11:38:13 PM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 27, 2007, 09:48:42 PM

From 2816 RPM and LOWER RPM, I will accumulate each band and post for you. Match them and you will have a sweet running Jester. Stay tuned for more later on.

Rhino

Okay Rhino, I'm done copying your tune from 2,816rpm up to redline (6,400 for me). I'll keep an eye out for your posting on the 2,816 rpm and lower.

Mark

icybay · « **Reply #72 on:** March 28, 2007, 01:17:09 AM »

To answer my own question- I downloaded the new manual and I found out that they added a new feature "Shift-Control C" to copy and "Shift-Control V" to paste.

Rhino · « **Reply #73 on:** March 28, 2007, 02:19:39 AM »

Quote from: Ironhorse on March 27, 2007, 11:38:13 PM

Okay Rhino, I'm done copying your tune from 2,816rpm up to redline (6,400 for me). I'll keep an eye out for your posting on the 2,816 rpm and lower.

Mark

I have the recent changes on my laptop. Tommorrow I will cover the lower end of the spectrum. They are all diffrent. They will give a nice economy for cruise, but at the same time, will perform well at the high end. Until then, chek it out. Punch it at any RPM over 2800 and feel the differene. Ignore the lower, for now, you won't hurt anything.

Rhino(jestertunedbyzippersmapsmakingmegorealfast)

Hoist! · « **Reply #74 on:** March 28, 2007, 02:23:22 AM »

This is facinating! I gotta get me one of those things. Sounds like it'll go great with the new top end this winter!

But AJ better look out then!

Hoist!

Ironhorse · « **Reply #75 on:** March 29, 2007, 01:51:08 AM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 28, 2007, 02:19:39 AM

I have the recent changes on my laptop. Tommorrow I will cover the lower end of the spectrum. They are all diffrent. They will give a nice economy for cruise, but at the same time, will perform well at the high end. Until then, chek it out. Punch it at any RPM over 2800 and feel the differene. Ignore the lower, for now, you won't hurt anything.

Rhino(jestertunedbyzippersmapsmakingmegorealfast)

Hey Rhino,

Howya coming along with that low end MAP?
The weekend is just around the corner.

Mark

icybay · « **Reply #76 on:** March 29, 2007, 11:51:21 PM »

I just went out and put 150 miles on the SEEG with Rhino's map, more or less. I richened it up on both the top and bottom out of caution,. The engine sounded strong and great all day. Seems like a great map. I filled up and averaged 38.5 over the day, and that was not freeway cruising either. I ran her hard all afternoon.

Rhino, thanks for a job well done and I m looking forward to the "rest of the story".

Unbalanced · « **Reply #77 on:** March 30, 2007, 10:07:08 AM »

Good Job Rhino (Ronnie),

With him adding fuel to his maps he is probably quicker than you .... that makes you the 2ndfastestjesterwithautotune, 2ndfastestjesterinflorida and what 3rdfastestjesterandoverall

Boy what a signature you have started to create.

Rhino · « **Reply #78 on:** March 30, 2007, 09:55:45 PM »

And now the rest of the story. Soon. Having a bit of a problem capturing screens.

And Harry, don't think I am giving away the secret sauce to be #2. Well, yes I am....will...I have no fear of losing, since I will always be thefastestjesterintheuniversestockjustpipesandair. It's becasue my bike was built on a Wednesday.

Rhino

Hoist! · « **Reply #79 on:** March 30, 2007, 10:00:57 PM »

Quote from: Rhino on March 30, 2007, 09:55:45 PM

And now the rest of the story. Soon. Having a bit of a problem capturing screens.

And Harry, don't think I am giving away the secret sauce to be #2. Well, yes I am....will...I have no fear of losing, since I will always be thefastestjesterintheuniversestockjustpipesandair. It's becasue my bike was built on a Wednesday.

Rhino

Thanks Rhino! Finally someone gets it!

Hoist!

Twolanerider · « **Reply #80 on:** March 30, 2007, 10:04:15 PM »

Quote from: Hoist on March 30, 2007, 10:00:57 PM

Thanks Rhino! Finally someone gets it! Hoist!

Howie, for some of us our bike has been built on every possible day of the week. Some of them a few times.

Hoist! · « **Reply #81 on:** March 30, 2007, 10:06:21 PM »

Quote from: Twolanerider on March 30, 2007, 10:04:15 PM

Howie, for some of us our bike has been built on every possible day of the week. Some of them a few times.

Oh do I know that. I had a '95 Dyna Convertible, my big ole dirt bike! And boy was that thing a Monday bike!

Hoist!

nixobilly · « **Reply #82 on:** April 02, 2007, 01:46:00 PM »

Rhino,

Did you road test your final map? If so, what are your results?

All,

Is everyone who used Rhino's upper end map get about the same result? i.e. approx 38.5 in crusing range?

Thanks,

Mark

Rhino · « **Reply #83 on:** April 02, 2007, 06:25:50 PM »

I am posting maps for the AT Thundermax in PC SERT & TMax MAPS section. READ THIS FIRST. This is a modified map from Zippers for the 110, Rineharts, 255 stock cam, std baffles, map dated 1/03/07. There is a new update, but I do not know yet what the back door changes are, therefore I stick with what makes me the fastestjesterstock. The ranges can be viewed, I hope, clearly so you can match them. The blue is what I have, the yellow boxes is where stock was from the factory.

Rhino

icybay · « **Reply #84 on:** April 04, 2007, 08:43:08 PM »

For smoothing AFR lines use the "fitting command"

To smooth the A/F line between different AFRs highlight (left click) on the first block for the range you want to smooth hit the "L" key, then right arrow over to the last block in the range you want to smooth and hit the "L" key again. This will give a smooth transition to your AF line.

Rhino · « **Reply #85 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:08:12 PM »

Icybay,

I did not want smoothing on my AFR charts. I specifically set each parameter. Smoothing would defeat the AFR's intended purpose as I have them set. I use LL for following end of line, or L + L for smoothing. Familiar. You talking to me?

Rhino (fasteststocksortofjester)

Rhino · « **Reply #86 on:** April 05, 2007, 08:17:30 PM »

This is for more experienced AutoTuners:

If you have a 110, and you are running map 357 and your map with a Zippers Autotune is running great, and that is after a little tweaking in the AFR's, you may have seen a new, updated map. Map # 372. The only changes are on the front end, in otherwords, only in the AFR's. They are minor, but for those that do not understand the stock maps and the changes you can make, go ahead and download and initialize the new one.

Me, I posted maps in the Map Forum for 357, and I am stickin with it.

However, I made one other change to it. I found a little timing tweak was in order. Try it if you have been mirroring my other maps. Disclaimer-your bike may not be, well, it ain't an exact replica, but this won't hurt anything.

I thought my bike was fast before, but now, jeeez, for what it is, stock, it runs really well. (reiterate stock) to me is pipes, a/c, and autotuner. (going to a cam would be a non stock bike, or other internals. Bolt on sh*& don't really count.)

Rhino(fjituemsn)

nixobilly · « **Reply #87 on:** May 03, 2007, 11:20:01 AM »

Rhino,

How is your scoot running now? What kinda MPG you getting after your AT has smoothed out over time? Made any additional changes to the map that is posted out on the site?

Thanks,

Mark

Unbalanced · « **Reply #88 on:** May 03, 2007, 11:32:31 AM »

Nixobilly,

I think you pose some very good questions I can't wait to hear the replies from ole Ronnie

nixobilly · « **Reply #89 on:** May 03, 2007, 01:15:26 PM »

Yea, if Rhino's still looks good I'll load it in my scoot when it gets back from the dealer (replacing head gaskets....

)

Cheers,

Mark

Unbalanced · « **Reply #90 on:** May 03, 2007, 04:28:05 PM »

Help I have been abducted by Rhino ..

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