110 cu SERK4 motor upgrade options

[Black Diamond]

Well I have been gathering information for my winter motor build for several months. It has been and still is quite the learning experience. I would like to thank all the members of this site. Many have offered very timely information on various issues such as chain vs gear drive, Timkin / Torrington bearings, cam support plate, etc.

A special thanks to the following for sharing their knowledge and patience:
Dennis - Cripple Creek
Dave & Otto - Engines by Otto
Steve - GMR Performance
TR - T Man's Performance
Roger & Kevin - Gutterridge Harley Davidson (Danville, IL - motor builder)

I have several options I am looking at so I thought I would post them here to get the input from this group. I understand I must carefully weigh the responses, but many heads in the huddle can work if your careful.

All options will have the crank sent to Darkhorse Crank / Hobbin Bros to replace the rod, reassemble, balance and true. Timken bearings and Torrington bearing installed for crank and cam. A billet cam support plate (R&R, Fueling, or the new Harley SE plate #25282-07) I am going to do what I can, within my budget, to bulletproof the bottom. I plan on keeping this scoot for life. I would like to thank the MoCo for making me spend more money to do what should be OEM.

Option 1: 110 cu motor
T-Man head work on 110 SE Heads w/manual compression releases
T-Man CP pistons
T-Man 590 cam
T-Man modify existing 50mm TB
SE Roller Rockers
SE Quick Install Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers (gotta have something chrome)
Least expensive option

Note: TR (T-Man) does not think much of these heads for a 110, intake valve too large. I may get used SE Performance Heads to keep the "Screamin Eagle" logo.

Option 2: 117 / 124 cu motor I can pick either, same price
T-Man head work on 110 SE Heads w/manual compression releases
Revolution Performance 117 or 124 cu cylinder and piston kit
T-Man machining case to increase bore size
T-Man 590 cam
SE 58mmTB
SE Pro High Flow Injector Kit
SE Roller Rockers
SE Quick Install Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers
Most expensive

Option 3: 110 cu motor Gear drive cam
GMR Performance weld / head work on existing 110 SE Head with manual compression releases
HD stock flat head pistons
Gear Drive Install Kit
R&R 615 / 585 gear drive cam
R&R Cam Plate, Cover, New Style Oil Pump
Inner and outer gear drive kit
Roller Rockers
4130 Chromemoly Pushrod
SE Rocker Arm Support
SE Cylinder Studs
Clearance Rocker Boxes & Cam Chest
Upgrade clutch springs
Chrome Billet Aluminum Covers
Note: Steve (GRM was only builder to recommend gear drive due to poor HD lower problems with crank, cam plate, etc.
see his post http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=17908.msg285966#msg285966

These options run in the area from $5000 to $7500. A great deal of that cost is the lower end. My builder is giving me 20% off on Harley parts. They will warranty their work. I have a lot of trust in these guys based on my own experiences with them. Guys and Gals, let me know you ideas and thoughts.

JW

[SBB]

B/D

Your choices seem to be good.

My choice was Tman

Tman for the Lowrider 126/121 with 15K miles on the motor after mods.

Tman for the Frontier 140/141 with 5K miles on the motor after mods.

Tman on the SERG, a mild build and just cleaning up the rest of what's there.

If you think he doesn't like the heads on a 110 don't ask him about a Marelli system on the pre Delphi bikes. OMG!


TR was having issues with his dyno but those have been worked out.
The 590 cam is an awesome cam in conjunction with his headwork.
Big #'s don't mean squat if it doesn't live. Check other builders, Tman's parts have a great rep!

If I lived close to Dennis I would buy Tman's parts and have him assemble.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.



S
  /
    B

 

[Black Diamond]

Thanks S / B

My guys are very high on T-Man. They have done a number of his builds. All of them with excellent results. So far the only downside has been the 110 heads. I'm thinking about the SE Pro Performance Heads or the stock heads off my 07 Steet Glide. Then there's the cam support plate issue.

JW   

[Black Diamond]

Well I have unfortunately joined the "Leakers club"  Just put 3673 miles on an 08 SERK and she's leaking from the rear cylinder head gasket!!!!  This is completely unacceptable on a $+30,000 scooter.    Now I'm more incline to go to a 117 / 124 to get rid of the Harley top end.

I'm looking for informed input.

Do I upgrade as a 110?
Put the 117 / 124 cu in RevPref cylinder on with a different head?
RevPref or Axtell? 
What head?

Have to call the boys in the morning and start over......CHIT

Dang, I thought I was close to doing this build. I have to start with a reliable base to make a reliable motor.

Looking for help guys. This is frustrating

JW

[GH]

Well I have unfortunately joined the "Leakers club"  Just put 3673 miles on an 08 SERK and she's leaking from the rear cylinder head gasket!!!!  This is completely unacceptable on a $+30,000 scooter.    Now I'm more incline to go to a 117 / 124 to get rid of the Harley top end.

I'm looking for informed input.

Do I upgrade as a 110?
Put the 117 / 124 cu in RevPref cylinder on with a different head?
RevPref or Axtell? 
What head?

Have to call the boys in the morning and start over......CHIT

Dang, I thought I was close to doing this build. I have to start with a reliable base to make a reliable motor.

Looking for help guys. This is frustrating

JW

The FNG is biting his nails!  Sorry for your troubles BD

[Hoist!]

Well I have unfortunately joined the "Leakers club"  Just put 3673 miles on an 08 SERK and she's leaking from the rear cylinder head gasket!!!!  This is completely unacceptable on a $+30,000 scooter.    Now I'm more incline to go to a 117 / 124 to get rid of the Harley top end.

I'm looking for informed input.

Do I upgrade as a 110?
Put the 117 / 124 cu in RevPref cylinder on with a different head?
RevPref or Axtell? 
What head?

Have to call the boys in the morning and start over......CHIT

Dang, I thought I was close to doing this build. I have to start with a reliable base to make a reliable motor.

Looking for help guys. This is frustrating

JW

First off, nobody makes engines or cases for these bikes! So your choice is to build an entire engine with their cases, or just rebuild the top end. I can't stress enough that, no matter what you decide, you have a snowball's chance in hell of fixing it if you retain any HD parts. By doing the top end alone, you stand a half a chance. Do the Timkin and new bottom end, you have a really good chance. That's if the cases hold up! But I wouldn't bore them any bigger, that's for damn sure!

Hoist!

[Unbalanced]

Another consideration is to not mess with your engine get it repaired for the leaks, pull it out and put a Jim's motor in since they have a complete motor that will work then have Tman or whoever do your heads/cam and be on your way not worrying about leaks, or bottom end.   Just another cog to throw at this.

Anyone know if Jim's will sell cases only?

[SBB]

First off, nobody makes engines or cases for these bikes!

WRONG

A Jim's 120 or a Jim's 131 will bolt right in.

http://www.jimsusa.com/engines.html

Unless Jim's is fabricating a "mistruth" to us their site says they will work.

My 120 has been trouble free but what do I know!

Don't answer that Harry!

 

[Unbalanced]

WRONG

A Jim's 120 or a Jim's 131 will bolt right in.

http://www.jimsusa.com/engines.html

Unless Jim's is fabricating a "mistruth" to us their site says they will work.

My 120 has been trouble free but what do I know!

Don't answer that Harry!

 

Damn cut off at the pass.     

But I do think I mentioned this information above, unless of course your right and Jim's is misleading us.   Boy a 120, or a 131 sound pretty interesting.

[Hoist!]

Jim's Engines for these bikes are only available thru HD dealers.

Hoist!

[SBB]

Anyone know if Jim's will sell cases only?

No clue Harry!

But let me ask this.
This is 07 not the old days when you bought top end kits or Sidewinder kits from S&S or STD head/cylinder kits from Axtell.
Why would anyone put stock Harley 110 or and other twin cam parts in a set of Jims cases if in fact the cases could be had.
IMHO the sum of all the parts would be greater than the complete engine, it makes no sense.

That's just like building a SEEG from a Street Glide. Yes it can be done but the cost overall would be much more that if you had just purchased the SEEG. Then the resale wouldn't be there.
But as dOOd has me repeat all the time, "different strokes for different folks".

 

[Hoist!]

No clue Harry!

But let me ask this.
This is 07 not the old days when you bought top end kits or Sidewinder kits from S&S or STD head/cylinder kits from Axtell.
Why would anyone put stock Harley 110 or and other twin cam parts in a set of Jims cases if in fact the cases could be had.
IMHO the sum of all the parts would be greater than the complete engine, it makes no sense.

That's just like building a SEEG from a Street Glide. Yes it can be done but the cost overall would be much more that if you had just purchased the SEEG. Then the resale wouldn't be there.
But as dOOd has me repeat all the time, "different strokes for different folks".

 

What do ya think I'm doing? Like I said, it ain't rocket science! Hopefully, whose cases don't matter. Using new HD cases with a Timkin conversion, S&S forged crank, and Axtell/CR top end. And I'm expecting it to be fine now!

Hoist!

[SBB]

Jim's Engines for these bikes are only available thru HD dealers.

Hoist!

That's not a problem for me.
Actually got "Happy Thankgiving" cards from H-D of Charlotte, Carolina Harley Davidson and Speedway Harley Davidson. Even got a 20% off card good thru December from Cox Harley Davidson. Cox is where the SERG came from. I'm loyal to H-D of Charlotte and wouldn't hesitate buying a Jim's whatever from them.
I have a great relationship with all the local dealers.  
I must be missing something here?

 

[Unbalanced]

Howie,

I think the point is you said

First off, nobody makes engines or cases for these bikes! So your choice is to build an entire engine with their cases, or just rebuild the top end

   Then you said only available from the HD Dealer when in reality it is available to BD or FNG just from a dealer based on what you said.

Chip my question about the cases was just what you said different strokes.

[GMR-PERFORMANCE]

I suggested the gear drive due to the issues with the stock cam plate, but with the amount of crank issues as well. If your current crank has a good runout spec then run the chain drive. We have seen a handful of the cam plates with elongated holes. now that does not mean every one will do this. however from our stand point if i am aware of it, and fail to tell you , it would be my luck that yours would be one that goes south.

I was talking with Mike S from latus on the heads today. he know understand why we do it and how it can stop the leaking issue. he agress with the fix.  Many of the CVO owners are not willing to have a head on the bike that does not have the SE 110 logo. I am not a fan of the head in stock form but with work and reducing the port size with welding and then CNC work. You can get the velocity up and over come to some point the larger valve. Increase the compression and match a cam to the new compression along with the engine being a 110 and a correct cam you have a great running bike. With the head logo still on your scooter.