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[ace4059]

My brothern-law just called and said he is buying a new Ultra (non-CVO). He wants to put some Vance and Hines Oval slip-on mufflers on it. He said his dealer told him that the bike would not run right and would lose some of its horsepower and torque and turn the mufflers blue. The dealer wants him to spend $1300 and do the Stage I and SERT and true duals along with the V&H slip-ons.

Is this true or just a load of crock?

He likes the looks and sound of the V&H ovals but he would rather not do the Stage I and SERT right now. Will it hurt anything to run just the slip-ons wirhout the SERT and Stage I ?

I told him I would ask the "experts" and get back to him.

Thanks in advance for any info,
                                         
                                          ACE

[sadunbar]

My brothern-law just called and said he is buying a new Ultra (non-CVO). He wants to put some Vance and Hines Oval slip-on mufflers on it. He said his dealer told him that the bike would not run right and would lose some of its horsepower and torque and turn the mufflers blue. The dealer wants him to spend $1300 and do the Stage I and SERT and true duals along with the V&H slip-ons.

Is this true or just a load of crock?

He likes the looks and sound of the V&H ovals but he would rather not do the Stage I and SERT right now. Will it hurt anything to run just the slip-ons wirhout the SERT and Stage I ?

I told him I would ask the "experts" and get back to him.

Thanks in advance for any info,
                                         
                                          ACE

Well, the bike will run a bit leaner, which will make it run a bit hotter, which could hurt the pipes by turning the color blue...  In a perfect world, he would do the combination of the pipes, high flow air cleaner and SERT or other device such as a Power Commander.  Personally, I would not change the pipes without also doing the high flow air cleaner and PC - but some do...  If the $1300 includes some dyno time - the price is about right...

Scott

[ace4059]

I don't understand how you would be changing the A/F ratio. I would think that the same amount of air should be going into the engine as long as you don't do the StageI A/C. The only thing I could see is that there will be less back pressure on the engine.

[sadunbar]

I don't understand how you would be changing the A/F ratio. I would think that the same amount of air should be going into the engine as long as you don't do the StageI A/C. The only thing I could see is that there will be less back pressure on the engine.

Think of it as a faucet.  The supply to the faucet is a constant - in volume and pressure.  When you open the restriction (being the faucet - or your pipes) the bucket fills faster.  You flow more thru the system by opening up the pipes.  You flow even more if you open up your intake.  You flow even more if you open your heads, ect....

[grc]

From what I've seen and read so far, changing mufflers only on an '07 or later Harley won't lean the mixture out beyond the ability of the closed loop system to adjust.  Of course, what that system adjusts to is a 14.7:1 AFR, and it only affects operation once the engine reaches normal operating temperature and at RPM's of approximately 4000 or below.  So, while the lower restriction (louder) mufflers shouldn't cause a problem during closed loop operation, neither will they improve performance or reduce the excessive engine temps common to the latest emission controlled engines.  If it were me, and I wanted to just do mufflers without the expense of the SERT and dyno tune, I would invest $80 in the Nightrider O2 IED "tweak" that fools the system into running at a slightly richer 14.2:1 AFR.  This would represent the lowest level of investment to get the "Harley sound" I assume this person is looking for.  Once he decides he wants a little more performance and control over the way his bike runs, he can still do intake, tuner, cams, whatever.

http://www.nightrider.com/parts/

Jerry

[Hugh Janis]

Jerry, that is interesting.  Would there be any performance gains in using the O2 sensor "plug and play".  I changed my exhaust to SE slip ons without a tune and would like to richen it up until I figure out exhaust/breather/tuner options.  I haven't noticed any change in temp but the sound is LOT better and it runs just fine.

[bikerbehaviorist]

Not sure if it is OK to post this so I will and ask for forgiveness later. The link below has a long discussion and many excellent points regarding the above mentioned enrichment device. I have one and am happy with it!
http://www.hdforums.com/m_2836828/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

[Midnight Rider]

Jerry, that is interesting.  Would there be any performance gains in using the O2 sensor "plug and play".  I changed my exhaust to SE slip ons without a tune and would like to richen it up until I figure out exhaust/breather/tuner options.  I haven't noticed any change in temp but the sound is LOT better and it runs just fine.

JG...not answering for Jerry, but those seem like a "best compromise" for a minimal investment to get a little more fuel to the motor.  You might feel a slight increase in performance, but I would not expect anything dramatic, if it's noticeable at all.  It seems like a good alternative for you until you make some other decisions about what you want to do.

[WVULTRA]

From what I've seen and read so far, changing mufflers only on an '07 or later Harley won't lean the mixture out beyond the ability of the closed loop system to adjust.  Of course, what that system adjusts to is a 14.7:1 AFR, and it only affects operation once the engine reaches normal operating temperature and at RPM's of approximately 4000 or below.  So, while the lower restriction (louder) mufflers shouldn't cause a problem during closed loop operation, neither will they improve performance or reduce the excessive engine temps common to the latest emission controlled engines.  If it were me, and I wanted to just do mufflers without the expense of the SERT and dyno tune, I would invest $80 in the Nightrider O2 IED "tweak" that fools the system into running at a slightly richer 14.2:1 AFR.  This would represent the lowest level of investment to get the "Harley sound" I assume this person is looking for.  Once he decides he wants a little more performance and control over the way his bike runs, he can still do intake, tuner, cams, whatever.

http://www.nightrider.com/parts/

Jerry

For simply adding slip-ons, I agree with Jerry 100% on the 02 IEDs. 

 

[kng103]

My brothern-law just called and said he is buying a new Ultra (non-CVO). He wants to put some Vance and Hines Oval slip-on mufflers on it. He said his dealer told him that the bike would not run right and would lose some of its horsepower and torque and turn the mufflers blue. The dealer wants him to spend $1300 and do the Stage I and SERT and true duals along with the V&H slip-ons.

Is this true or just a load of crock?

He likes the looks and sound of the V&H ovals but he would rather not do the Stage I and SERT right now. Will it hurt anything to run just the slip-ons wirhout the SERT and Stage I ?

I told him I would ask the "experts" and get back to him.

Thanks in advance for any info,
                                         
                                          ACE

if he is buying a new bike with the 02 sensor and all he is doing is changing the mufflers he needs to do nothing else.
once he changes the air intake it should be reflashed.
there is no need for a new bike with no mods to be tuned on a dyno.
the gains would be to minimal.
this is not a cvo engine we are talking about.

[HUBBARD]

if he is buying a new bike with the 02 sensor and all he is doing is changing the mufflers he needs to do nothing else.
once he changes the air intake it should be reflashed.
there is no need for a new bike with no mods to be tuned on a dyno.
the gains would be to minimal.
this is not a cvo engine we are talking about.

'Am, king, where in the hell have you been?  Good to see you back!  Later--HUBBARD

[txbear55]

Ace, Where the heck have you been???   Seemed to have dropped off the map!  How are things in WF?  Did you escape the dreaded head leaks in your 110?   Hope to get up your way when it warms a little more this spring for another run to Wichita Mtns.  Later,   BB 

[Hugh Janis]

JG...not answering for Jerry, but those seem like a "best compromise" for a minimal investment to get a little more fuel to the motor.  You might feel a slight increase in performance, but I would not expect anything dramatic, if it's noticeable at all.  It seems like a good alternative for you until you make some other decisions about what you want to do.

That's what I was hoping you'd say.  It's not so much to gain additional HP but it helps to justify it even more.  If I did the upgrades (tuner, breather, exhaust) later I could sell the O2 sensor and slip ons as a package to fund the new project.

[kng103]

'Am, king, where in the hell have you been?  Good to see you back!  Later--HUBBARD

whats up hub??
i've been around.
i check in from time to time.
i don't post much unless i feel i can offer something constructive.
i was even in the footbal pool, although i missed three weeks of that.
just busy with life and kids.
how are you??