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Author Topic: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ  (Read 127967 times)

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Hoist!

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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #735 on: December 03, 2008, 09:33:00 AM »

Hey Howie, didn't you say you had an oil pressure problem around the time you also had this problem? I can't find it here in the thread, but did the oil pressure problem happen before the lifter noise started? Could the low oil pressure caused the lifter to colapes collapse ;D or get spongy and with high lift cams with shorter duration cause the lifter to come off the cam and maybe start this problem?

Guess at this point that's watter under the bridge!

Craig

Craig, I saw the OP drop at idle and oil light came on after it got hot in city traffic, even though the OT never got above 270deg or so. But never heard any noises then. I switched to dino oil right after and never saw the OP issue repeat itself after that. This failure occurred a few thousand miles after that. Not sure if the 2 things are related, but anything's possible I guess. OP had always been better than ever after the rebuild, and even better yet with the dino oil in it. :confused5:

Hoist! 8)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2008, 09:48:27 AM by Hoist! »
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #736 on: December 03, 2008, 09:41:24 AM »

Hey, why didn't you correct my spelling?  ???

Craig
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Hoist!

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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #737 on: December 03, 2008, 09:47:52 AM »

Hey, why didn't you correct my spelling?  ???

Craig

I have a hard enough time trying to get mine right. But you picked up on that "collapse" rather quickly! ::) ;D ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #738 on: December 03, 2008, 10:49:48 AM »

Hey Howie, didn't you say you had an oil pressure problem around the time you also had this problem? I can't find it here in the thread, but did the oil pressure problem happen before the lifter noise started? Could the low oil pressure caused the lifter to collapse or get spongy and with high lift cams with shorter duration cause the lifter to come off the cam and maybe start this problem?

Guess at this point that's water under the bridge!

Craig

Just an opinion, but I would suspect the opposite occured...  The beginnings of the lifter failure pumped trash thru the oil pump - started loosing efficiency of the pump - dino oil masked this until the noises started occuring...  Could be unrelated occurances, but I doubt it...   :nixweiss:  The clearances in this type oil pump do not have to increase much for pressure to be effected, and would become first noticable at idle...
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    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #739 on: December 03, 2008, 12:12:02 PM »

HeHe!!! They say timing is everything! ;)

Vern just called me. He started taking the motor apart. The cylinders, pistons and rings looked beautiful. The bottom spins as freely as it did when it went together with the new crank and Timken. He's splitting the cases to clean it out, but doesn't expect to see anything out of the ordinary there either. He prolly won't even pull the crank from the left side case, just clean everything for peace of mind. He will measure everything on Feuling's behalf, since they asked and are standing behind this, as it appears to be due to their lifter failure.

I had a long talk with him about dj's posts. Vern and dj would get along fabulously. They think in very similar paths. Vern has tested many lifters over the years as they ARE the weak link in performance engines. He's tried and tested many over the years after failures in Drag Racing Engines he's built. He found that the 2 best lifters both provide a "cushion" from heavy loading. He's actually put the different brands in a press to see how they respond to heavy loading. Most all the performance lifters are too "hard" and didn't malform under heavy loading. The retained the shape til they exploded instead. Or you'd just tap it with a hammer while in the press and watch them explode. The only 2 he uses now because they hold up to his tests and his Drag Racing Engines is the stock HD lifter and the S&S Limited Travel roller lifter. They both provide a little "cushion" under heavy loading and did not self destruct. The rollers on both held up fine too under these tests and proved themselves to him in his subsequent Drag Racing engine builds. These are the only 2 lifters he'll use now.

So we're using the S&S lifters in this rebuild and will check them per dj's recommendation. But I don't think we'll need to perform a "destructive" test on them if they're holding up OK, since Vern felt he's tested them enough for his satisfaction. But we will keep a close eye on them this time!

Vern also agrees on the lowered oil pressure being the beginning of this event. He thinks we only helped prevent further damage by switching to the dino oil and changing it every 1000 miles, a regiment he wants to maintain from the beginning this time around. He feels I should prolly use the stock HD OP with the rebuild too.

So it seems we're going with the S&S 625G cams, S&S adjustable pushrods, S&S lifters, HD OP, HD SE camplate. He's recrosshatching the cylinders lightly and reusing my CP pistons (which were clearanced perfectly after he got done with my cylinders last time). He doesn't think the failure caused much damage except to the specific components mentioned. He feels good about the new build and hopefully will eliminate any cause for future concern if he builds it his way. I agree and will be proceeding accordingly! ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #740 on: December 03, 2008, 12:44:07 PM »

That's good progress Howie.  Congrats on finding the lower end looking good so far.  Got to be a load off. 

How big is the smile right now pal ;D ?
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Hoist!

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    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #741 on: December 03, 2008, 12:46:56 PM »

That's good progress Howie.  Congrats on finding the lower end looking good so far.  Got to be a load off. 

How big is the smile right now pal ;D ?

 ;D ;D ;D :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #742 on: December 03, 2008, 01:30:32 PM »

HeHe!!! They say timing is everything! ;)

Vern just called me. He started taking the motor apart. The cylinders, pistons and rings looked beautiful. The bottom spins as freely as it did when it went together with the new crank and Timken. He's splitting the cases to clean it out, but doesn't expect to see anything out of the ordinary there either. He prolly won't even pull the crank from the left side case, just clean everything for peace of mind. He will measure everything on Feuling's behalf, since they asked and are standing behind this, as it appears to be due to their lifter failure.

I had a long talk with him about dj's posts. Vern and dj would get along fabulously. They think in very similar paths. Vern has tested many lifters over the years as they ARE the weak link in performance engines. He's tried and tested many over the years after failures in Drag Racing Engines he's built. He found that the 2 best lifters both provide a "cushion" from heavy loading. He's actually put the different brands in a press to see how they respond to heavy loading. Most all the performance lifters are too "hard" and didn't malform under heavy loading. The retained the shape til they exploded instead. Or you'd just tap it with a hammer while in the press and watch them explode. The only 2 he uses now because they hold up to his tests and his Drag Racing Engines is the stock HD lifter and the S&S Limited Travel roller lifter. They both provide a little "cushion" under heavy loading and did not self destruct. The rollers on both held up fine too under these tests and proved themselves to him in his subsequent Drag Racing engine builds. These are the only 2 lifters he'll use now.

So we're using the S&S lifters in this rebuild and will check them per dj's recommendation. But I don't think we'll need to perform a "destructive" test on them if they're holding up OK, since Vern felt he's tested them enough for his satisfaction. But we will keep a close eye on them this time!

Vern also agrees on the lowered oil pressure being the beginning of this event. He thinks we only helped prevent further damage by switching to the dino oil and changing it every 1000 miles, a regiment he wants to maintain from the beginning this time around. He feels I should prolly use the stock HD OP with the rebuild too.

So it seems we're going with the S&S 625G cams, S&S adjustable pushrods, S&S lifters, HD OP, HD SE camplate. He's recrosshatching the cylinders lightly and reusing my CP pistons (which were clearanced perfectly after he got done with my cylinders last time). He doesn't think the failure caused much damage except to the specific components mentioned. He feels good about the new build and hopefully will eliminate any cause for future concern if he builds it his way. I agree and will be proceeding accordingly! ;)

Hoist! 8)

New rings also, right?  My recollection is CP provided the rings - and they were non standard rings - specially made for their pistons...
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    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #743 on: December 03, 2008, 01:34:07 PM »

New rings also, right?  My recollection is CP provided the rings - and they were non standard rings - specially made for their pistons...

Hmm... I didn't remember that Scott. Better check with Vern on that one. He deals with CP directly, so getting the right parts shouldn't be a problem. He might not even change em if they look like new. For the $, I'd feel better with new rings though. I'll let ya know what he says when I talk with him again tomorrow. ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #744 on: December 03, 2008, 02:16:07 PM »

Hmm... I didn't remember that Scott. Better check with Vern on that one. He deals with CP directly, so getting the right parts shouldn't be a problem. He might not even change em if they look like new. For the $, I'd feel better with new rings though. I'll let ya know what he says when I talk with him again tomorrow. ;)Hoist! 8)
Already used your 1 phone call today, huh?  8) Har!  :huepfenlol2: spyder   (you must know how lucky you are to have someone like Vern close by)  :2vrolijk_21:
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Hoist!

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    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #745 on: December 03, 2008, 02:35:52 PM »

Already used your 1 phone call today, huh?  8) Har!  :huepfenlol2: spyder   (you must know how lucky you are to have someone like Vern close by)  :2vrolijk_21:

HeHe!!! You know it spyd! :2vrolijk_21:

I sure do my share of breaking chit, but Vern always has my bikes running great! He told me to throw my tools away years ago! ;D

He works on all our crew's bikes for over 20 years. He's at a real nice shop now. I'm hoping they become Traxxion Dealers too. Then I'm back to one-stop shopping! ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #746 on: December 03, 2008, 08:00:12 PM »

You lucky SOB, just when you thought you were going to have to put some serious dough into your motor you get a break. I bet you know where the money saved is already going.  This could go on for years.  I hope you don't find anything worthwile for expenditures, at least not anything that I may need. You guys have cost me enough already. 

Good Luck

Ray G.
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Hoist!

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    • CVO1: '07C FLHRSE3, BLACK ICE OF COURSE, CUSTOM 110" TC 6-SPEED +++, "CYBIL"!!!
    • CVO2: '99 FXR3 BRIGHT & DARK CANDY BLUE W/FLAMES, STAGE II 80" EVO 5-SPEED +++, "JOY"!!!
    • CVO3: 4: & 5: '85 FXWG BLACK w/CUSTOM FLAMES, 110" EVO 6-SPEED +++ CVO style!!!; '08 NSMC PROSG CUSTOM FXR BASED PRO STREET BLACK, 89" EVO 5-SPEED, VERY FAST!!!; '09 NSMC HSTBBR CUSTOM RIGID HOISTBOBBER, SILVER METALFLAKE BATES SOLO SEAT & TIN w/BLACK WISHBONE FRAME, 80" EVO (w/Shovelhead bottom end) 4-SPEED! VERY COOL!!!
Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #747 on: December 03, 2008, 08:34:18 PM »

You lucky SOB, just when you thought you were going to have to put some serious dough into your motor you get a break. I bet you know where the money saved is already going.  This could go on for years.  I hope you don't find anything worthwile for expenditures, at least not anything that I may need. You guys have cost me enough already. 

Good Luck

Ray G.

HeHe!!! Actually, I wasn't planning on doing any more than I am now. I just wasn't up to getting REALLY pissed yet, if we found something else major had failed after disassembling it! So I hadn't counted on more $$$ for the build. I'll take what I can get at this point too! :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #748 on: December 03, 2008, 09:18:14 PM »

Great to read things are going well with Cybil's resurrection, Howie. 
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Re: Cybil II, My New and Improved ‘07B FLHRSE3TQ
« Reply #749 on: December 04, 2008, 12:11:44 AM »

I’m going to take one more pass at the tappet rollers before moving on. My money is on the materials as the root cause of the tappet roller failures. Considering H-D’s past and current relationship with Jim’s, it seems odd that H-D would drop them as the vendor for their SE lifters. It’s a good bet that they both worked to resolve the durability issues before H-D opted to change vendors.

I speculate that Milwaukee has a specification for a material in the tappet roller bearing, most likely the axle, that the Jim’s product didn’t consistently meet. Whatever the issue was with the Jim’s/SE lifters it was something that they were not able to overcome. It is my understanding that H-D now sources their Screamin’ Eagle lifters from the same vendor that supplies the OE lifters; although I don’t know who that is.

Jim’s redesigned their lifter to provide direct lubrication to the tappet roller bearing. We know that additional lubrication has a positive impact on the tappet roller because the intakes, which apparently receive less lubrication, fail well before the exhausts do. What I have not pinned down is whether the added lubrication is masking a metallurgical shortcoming in the tappet roller bearing, or if the high load failures have been a lubrication issue all along.

If the issue is lubrication, then Jim’s may be the only game in town for machines equipped with aggressive valvetrains and Hoisted :) over long distances. If the issue is metallurgical, then we have more choices, but we just don’t know what all of them are.

I have experienced tappet roller failure in three sets of Jim’s sourced, SE lifters. The first two were discovered when the lifters had approximately 3,000 miles on them. In each case the rear intake tappet roller bearing had deteriorated to the point where you could just begin to detect it by hand. The last set (pictured) was run approximately 12,000 miles until the roller became squared off and the machine was shut down.

The rationale above together with the experience of three separate incidences of tappet roller failure is the basis for my recommendation to inspect the rollers. If you only ride a couple of thousand miles a year, or if you have an aggressive valvetrain but ride conservatively, you may not own the machine long enough for it to come apart. If you ride 10,000 relatively hard miles each year, IMHO you should consider taking steps to manage the potential risk.
 
Regarding questions about specific lifters; my criteria for selecting a brand are: they must run quietly, under high load conditions, for many miles; everything else is just background noise. As far as recommendations or opinions on lifters; I’m still trying to sort that out for myself, but now you know what I know on the subject.

djkak
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