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Author Topic: Sluggish  (Read 38738 times)

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djkak

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #195 on: December 05, 2008, 01:51:19 AM »

[/color]

01 touring bikes were the last to have 3.37.  Thanks to the EPA.

'01 fuel injected touring machines ran 24/37 primary gearing; 1.54:1. Carbureted machines ran 25/36; 1.44:1.

djkak
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Unbalanced

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #196 on: December 05, 2008, 01:01:50 PM »

My 02 RoadKing was/is 25/36  or 315 gearing.  (Delphi)
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djkak

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #197 on: December 05, 2008, 06:17:12 PM »

I realize that this is mostly a useless piece of 1990’s trivia. I saw it just lying out there and I can’t be outdoors riding the bike or sled, so what the hell.

It looks like Milwaukee changed the primary gearing from 24/37 to 25/36 on the BT’s in ’94. With the advent of the Twin Cam in ‘99, H-D ran the 24/37 sprockets on just the fuel injected touring machines; carbureted tourers still ran 25/36. I believe that in ’02 and later, H-D dropped the 24/37 combo and ran 25/36 on all BT’s.

The timing of the primary gearing change coincided with the starter pinion and ring gear update in ’94. I’ll go out on a limb here and speculate that the reason for the gearing change was to gain increased mechanical advantage for the starter motor. The reason for going back to 24/37 on the injected tourers was that, A: Fuel injection provides more precise control of the starting process, especially during hot restarts. B: touring machines are heavier and Milwaukee felt that they could use the gearing; JMHO.

djkak
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djkak

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #198 on: December 08, 2008, 04:11:58 PM »

Got home, checked the oil, one quart low.  Been 1200 miles since my last service.  I normally run about 1/2 quart low.  Put the bike on the lift, checked primary fluid level.  Good.  Pull the sump plug..........22 ounces of oil drained out in 15 minutes, and was still "stringing" when I put the plug back in. Sumping?  Yes?  No?  Some other challenge(s)?  Options?  Courses of action?

Thanks!

Here's another of the new OD6 and oil spout.  I think the new oil spout will ease my mind about the dipstick blowing out and getting oil all over the place like it has so many times before.  Putting a temp gauge in place of the air temp gauge on the inner fairing.

I have a theory that I believe is worth exploring; although it does involve reading another short novel.

It is my sense that conditions resulting in an increased pressure differential across the scavenge pump’s inlet and outlet ports (lower relative inlet pressure) will also result in a reduction in the pump’s efficiency.

Under certain conditions, early Twin Cam’s provide us with a dramatic example of reduced scavenge pump efficiency. Twin Cam’s manufactured prior to ’02 were prone to purging large amounts of oil (16 to 32 ounces) through the breather in a single event. Oil pump alignment was identified as the reason for the purge, but the pump alignment always remains constant; the purge is intermittent and requires a trigger event. IMHO the trigger event is anything that causes oil to move forward to the upper front area of the oil reservoir and obstruct the vent hole. Vent hole obstruction begins with a reservoir that is well topped up or overfilled. Moving the oil forward involves deceleration, aggressive braking or something like one of those incredible downhill grades on eastbound I-70, west of Denver.

With the reservoir vent obstructed, the scavenge pump quickly pressurizes the reservoir, creating a backpressure in the scavenge pump. The pressure in the reservoir also forces oil through the vent into the camchest, contributing to the quantity of oil purged. Considering that more than 50% of the scavenge pump’s output is air, I believe that increasing the relative pressure across the pump’s outlet port results in a cavitation inside the pump. Cavitation reduces the pump’s efficiency to a point where it pumps at a fraction of its capacity; meanwhile the feed pump continues to fill the engine with oil. I haven’t confirmed this theory, but since the oil reservoir vent was relocated to the oil filler cap area, issues with purging nearly a quart of oil in a single event have simply disappeared in ‘02 and later TC’s.

According to this theory, any circumstance that results in an increased pressure differential across the scavenge pump, reduces the efficiency of the scavenge pump (to a relative degree). The S&S reed valve is designed to lower crankcase pressure while increasing pressure in the camchest and oil reservoir. If this theory is credible, then the installation of the reed valve will have a negative impact on the scavenge pump’s efficiency, increasing the oil level in the crankcase.

If you have a wetsumper, validating this theory would be relatively simple. Use a consistent and reliable method to establish a baseline for the amount of oil running in the crankcase (future post). Modify an old filler cap to accommodate a large diameter (5/8” +) vent hose. Run the test again with the oil reservoir vented through the modified filler cap. If there is no substantial difference in the amount of oil running in the crankcase, the theory is busted. If the theory is validated it will help bring some valuable focus to the search for a solution.

djkak
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 04:16:05 PM by djkak »
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REGGAB

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #199 on: December 16, 2008, 05:30:38 PM »

I have a theory that I believe is worth exploring; although it does involve reading another short novel.

It is my sense that conditions resulting in an increased pressure differential across the scavenge pump’s inlet and outlet ports (lower relative inlet pressure) will also result in a reduction in the pump’s efficiency.

Under certain conditions, early Twin Cam’s provide us with a dramatic example of reduced scavenge pump efficiency. Twin Cam’s manufactured prior to ’02 were prone to purging large amounts of oil (16 to 32 ounces) through the breather in a single event. Oil pump alignment was identified as the reason for the purge, but the pump alignment always remains constant; the purge is intermittent and requires a trigger event. IMHO the trigger event is anything that causes oil to move forward to the upper front area of the oil reservoir and obstruct the vent hole. Vent hole obstruction begins with a reservoir that is well topped up or overfilled. Moving the oil forward involves deceleration, aggressive braking or something like one of those incredible downhill grades on eastbound I-70, west of Denver.

With the reservoir vent obstructed, the scavenge pump quickly pressurizes the reservoir, creating a backpressure in the scavenge pump. The pressure in the reservoir also forces oil through the vent into the camchest, contributing to the quantity of oil purged. Considering that more than 50% of the scavenge pump’s output is air, I believe that increasing the relative pressure across the pump’s outlet port results in a cavitation inside the pump. Cavitation reduces the pump’s efficiency to a point where it pumps at a fraction of its capacity; meanwhile the feed pump continues to fill the engine with oil. I haven’t confirmed this theory, but since the oil reservoir vent was relocated to the oil filler cap area, issues with purging nearly a quart of oil in a single event have simply disappeared in ‘02 and later TC’s.

According to this theory, any circumstance that results in an increased pressure differential across the scavenge pump, reduces the efficiency of the scavenge pump (to a relative degree). The S&S reed valve is designed to lower crankcase pressure while increasing pressure in the camchest and oil reservoir. If this theory is credible, then the installation of the reed valve will have a negative impact on the scavenge pump’s efficiency, increasing the oil level in the crankcase.

If you have a wetsumper, validating this theory would be relatively simple. Use a consistent and reliable method to establish a baseline for the amount of oil running in the crankcase (future post). Modify an old filler cap to accommodate a large diameter (5/8” +) vent hose. Run the test again with the oil reservoir vented through the modified filler cap. If there is no substantial difference in the amount of oil running in the crankcase, the theory is busted. If the theory is validated it will help bring some valuable focus to the search for a solution.

djkak

Thanks, dj.  Really appreciate your experience and input.
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REGGAB

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #200 on: December 19, 2008, 09:08:14 PM »

Rod built a fire in Thump today.  She's gone through heat cycling at increasing thirty second intervals up to four minutes.  Headed to Hanceville in the morning to check her out and take her for a short ride.  Will bring her home on Christmas Eve and leave the purple bike with Rod for carb work. Can't wait to see Thumper FMC again.  Been a long, three plus month wait.  Doubtful I'll sleep well tonight.  Expect copious pictures.
Chitcanned the useless "AIR" gauge, and replaced it with an oil temp gauge.  Gonna see how she does with the single six row JAGG, but will likely move to dual 10 row JAGGs in series once the HPI oil filter flange is delivered.

Excited?  You bet I am!   :2vrolijk_21:
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spydglide

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #201 on: December 20, 2008, 07:58:46 AM »

Rod built a fire in Thump today.  She's gone through heat cycling at increasing thirty second intervals up to four minutes.  Headed to Hanceville in the morning to check her out and take her for a short ride.  Will bring her home on Christmas Eve and leave the purple bike with Rod for carb work. Can't wait to see Thumper FMC again.  Been a long, three plus month wait.  Doubtful I'll sleep well tonight.  Expect copious pictures.
Chitcanned the useless "AIR" gauge, and replaced it with an oil temp gauge.  Gonna see how she does with the single six row JAGG, but will likely move to dual 10 row JAGGs in series once the HPI oil filter flange is delivered.

Excited?  You bet I am!   :2vrolijk_21:
Between you and Howie breaking out 'new & improved' scooters for Christmas......we're getting excited vicariously.  :2vrolijk_21: har!  spyder
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SBB

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #202 on: December 20, 2008, 08:02:41 AM »



Excited?  You bet I am!   :2vrolijk_21:

Glad for you Henry and just as excited to hear about the first ride!

SBB
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HogBreath

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #203 on: December 20, 2008, 08:05:51 AM »

Congratulations Henry. We expect pictures!
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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #204 on: December 20, 2008, 08:57:56 AM »

Rod built a fire in Thump today.  She's gone through heat cycling at increasing thirty second intervals up to four minutes.  Headed to Hanceville in the morning to check her out and take her for a short ride.  Will bring her home on Christmas Eve and leave the purple bike with Rod for carb work. Can't wait to see Thumper FMC again.  Been a long, three plus month wait.  Doubtful I'll sleep well tonight.  Expect copious pictures.
Chitcanned the useless "AIR" gauge, and replaced it with an oil temp gauge.  Gonna see how she does with the single six row JAGG, but will likely move to dual 10 row JAGGs in series once the HPI oil filter flange is delivered.

Excited?  You bet I am!   :2vrolijk_21:

Good new Henry. Let's hear how she rides, once you calm down enough to type!

JW
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Hoist!

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #205 on: December 20, 2008, 09:07:13 AM »

Great news Henry! Good luck this time around! But nuthin wrong being the future poster boy either, if I ever decide to retire! But I'll be breakin chit TIL I DIE, so don't hold your breath!!! ??? ;D ;D ;D ;)

All the best this time around man! Enjoy your new hot rod!!! :drink: :2vrolijk_21: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:

Hoist! 8)
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REGGAB

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #206 on: December 20, 2008, 04:28:43 PM »

Just got home.  Super nasty in North Alabama today.  Rod was not ready to release her for a ride yet.  Wants to heat cycle her some more before anyone rides her.  He lost some time dickin' with her neutral sensor...........seems it wants to sense whenever it wants to sense.  Not good.  But he got it fixed.  Then he had to calibrate the speedo.....yadayadayada.....and so on.  Here's some pictures.  She sure does sound great........even in the dyno chamber.
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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #207 on: December 20, 2008, 04:30:07 PM »

"The General" at work!
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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #208 on: December 20, 2008, 04:31:19 PM »

.
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REGGAB

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Re: Sluggish
« Reply #209 on: December 20, 2008, 04:33:05 PM »

New Oil Temp Gauge.................Finally........no more looking down and contorting my head behind my ass just to check oil temp.
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