www.CVOHARLEY.com

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner  (Read 3706 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

trahog

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 520
  • Living life
    • FL


    • CVO1: 2000 screaming eagle road glide
    • CVO2: 2005 screaming eagle v-rod 2009 cvo road Glide 2011cvo street glide
    • CVO3: 2015 cvo street glide
screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« on: June 27, 2009, 06:41:57 AM »

If you put an high flow screaming eagle air cleaner on a stock 07 twin cam motor do you need to put  any fuel managment on ?buddy put one on and ran like crap,dealer sld to him and installed and said would need to be dyno?just for an air cleaner,know back to stock after $500 spent think he got screwed
Logged

aclass

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 596

    • CVO1: FLTRSE3
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2009, 07:54:02 AM »

The instructions in the air cleaner kit should state that a recalibration of the ECM is necessary. 
Logged

grc

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10335
  • AKA Grouchy Old Fart
    • IN


    • CVO1: 2005 SEEG2
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2009, 10:33:49 AM »


Yes, increasing air flow will normally require recalibration of the ECM.  The type of closed loop system Harley uses won't make large corrections automatically, and even if it would the system doesn't adjust at all in open loop mode (high rpm and large throttle openings).  The days of an air cleaner and muffler change with only a few bucks spent on different pilot and main jets in the carb are long gone.  If anyone wants to "upgrade" their Harley to Stage 1 these days, they need to bring quite a bit more cash.  And I personally would suggest folks forget the $149.99 street legal downloads if the dealer recommends one and just go straight to one of the better tuning devices.  Costs a little more initially, but you actually get something useful for the money.

Jerry
Logged
Jerry - 2005 Cherry SEEG  -  Member # 1155

H-D and me  -  a classic love / hate relationship.  Current score:  love 40, hate 50, bewildered 10.

trahog

  • Elite CVO Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 520
  • Living life
    • FL


    • CVO1: 2000 screaming eagle road glide
    • CVO2: 2005 screaming eagle v-rod 2009 cvo road Glide 2011cvo street glide
    • CVO3: 2015 cvo street glide
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2009, 12:07:11 PM »

thanks for the reply
Logged

Ed Ramberger - One_Screamin_Eagle

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 286

    • CVO1: 2000 FLTRSEI
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2009, 07:28:37 PM »

If you put an high flow screaming eagle air cleaner on a stock 07 twin cam motor do you need to put  any fuel managment on ?buddy put one on and ran like crap,dealer sld to him and installed and said would need to be dyno?just for an air cleaner,know back to stock after $500 spent think he got screwed


NO - ignore the advice above.  The stock cal is more than adequate for an air cleaner change.  The adaptive fuel has a plus/minus 10% which is more than adqquate for an air cleaner.  Just advice from someone who actually uses this stuff on a daily basis.
Logged
FLTRSEI -Delphi Conversion, 103", 251 cams, Heavy Breather & a couple other little tweaks

Talon

  • Life is like a jar of jalapenos, what you do today may get you in the a$$ tomorrow!
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4072
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2009, 01:13:40 PM »

NO - ignore the advice above.  The stock cal is more than adequate for an air cleaner change.  The adaptive fuel has a plus/minus 10% which is more than adqquate for an air cleaner.  Just advice from someone who actually uses this stuff on a daily basis.

Jerry does this for a living. First off the bikes run lean out the door. The ECU will only make adjustments when in closed loop mode and it tries to run as lean as it can to meet EPA standards. You might get away with running the Nightrider XIED's , but still only helps in closed loop.

Craig
Logged

Ed Ramberger - One_Screamin_Eagle

  • Senior CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 286

    • CVO1: 2000 FLTRSEI
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2009, 10:42:37 PM »

Jerry does this for a living. First off the bikes run lean out the door. The ECU will only make adjustments when in closed loop mode and it tries to run as lean as it can to meet EPA standards. You might get away with running the Nightrider XIED's , but still only helps in closed loop.

Craig

LOL -ok whatever you say.  BTW, in case you didn't know... The ECM monitors the correction factors required to achieve the O2 sensor bias voltage at 40 and 70 KPA (that is light and med heavy cruise)  It then interpolates the correction across the map (AKA adaptive fuel value) and that affects open loop as well.  Adaptive fuel trims go plus and minus 10% over the base map and there is nooooo way an air cleaner is going to exceed that value.   Alsoooooo, the bikes run at a predetermined O2 sensor bias which will be exactly the same with or without the air cleaner. Soooo, You can lead a horse to water...

Oh yeah, if someone insists on buying a fuel controller for simply an air cleaner they could simply use the Screamin' Eagle EFI Fueler.  If they insist on more go with the Super Tuner and I will tell them how to modify the map to be really nice.

« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 11:00:01 PM by One_Screamin_Eagle »
Logged
FLTRSEI -Delphi Conversion, 103", 251 cams, Heavy Breather & a couple other little tweaks

grc

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10335
  • AKA Grouchy Old Fart
    • IN


    • CVO1: 2005 SEEG2
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2009, 08:37:48 PM »

If you put an high flow screaming eagle air cleaner on a stock 07 twin cam motor do you need to put  any fuel managment on ?buddy put one on and ran like crap,dealer sld to him and installed and said would need to be dyno?just for an air cleaner,know back to stock after $500 spent think he got screwed


Hmmmm.  "ran like crap" after installing an air cleaner.  So much for the adaptive fuel correction.  Should have run just like it did before the install if the "adaptive fuel correction" was as good as the previous post made it sound.

Oh, btw trahog, what kind of air cleaner did he get from that dealer for $500?  That's rather steep for the old fashioned SE air cleaner (MSRP $139.95).  Maybe it was the Heavy Breather ($299.95), or the Ventilator ($229.95), both flow better than the old SE round filter.  Still a pretty steep price though, since it shouldn't take more than 1/2 to 1 hour for the install.  Are you sure he didn't change mufflers as well?  Truth be told, that's what I had assumed when I first read this thread and posted my first reply, the good ol' Stage 1 air cleaner and slip-on upgrade, approximately $500.

Adaptive fuel correction is nothing special or new, it's been part of the system on every closed loop EFI I've ever seen.  However, the stock system is not designed to correct for performance modifications, it's only purpose is to make corrections required by the manufacturing variations in things like sensors, fuel pump volume and pressure, fuel injector flow, etc., and then to make small corrections over time as the various components wear.  This is all meant to maintain compliance with emissions regs over the life of the product, not to make it easy to do modifications.

If someone spends $500 plus on so-called performance mods, I naturally assume they want the bike to run better than stock.  Sure, up to the fairly narrow limits of the system you might get away with not using a tuning device.  For someone who just wants a slightly louder muffler for instance, and isn't unhappy with the heat and the way the stock bike runs, the change in flow probably won't exceed the ability of the ECM to compensate.  So the bike will run at 14.7:1 in closed loop, just as poorly and just as hot as it did when it was totally stock.  And without a dyno and exhaust gas analyzer, you won't really know what AFR you're running in open loop.  Probably can get away with it, since H-D's stock maps are a little rich at high rpm and wide open throttle to protect the engines.

Where I'm going with this can be basically boiled down to, do you really want maybe, might, probably; or do you want to know for sure?  Do you want stock performance after investing additional cash, or do you want better performance and reliability?  The way the current bikes run from the factory, I would personally use a tuner even if I had no plans to modify anything.

Jerry

PS.    As always, feel free to believe whatever you want.  I'm certain there are many things that I've been wrong about over the years, so I wouldn't want anyone to take my word as gospel.  Before taking the word of any individual, especially folks you've never met and don't know, I would recommend you do a little research somewhere other than on a public discussion web site.  The amount of BS I've seen on the web would be enough to fertilize every piece of arable land in the entire world, several times over, and leave plenty for other purposes as well.  If you want the straight skinny on a lot of this stuff, check with the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) or other reputable and well known technical organizations.
Logged
Jerry - 2005 Cherry SEEG  -  Member # 1155

H-D and me  -  a classic love / hate relationship.  Current score:  love 40, hate 50, bewildered 10.

Talon

  • Life is like a jar of jalapenos, what you do today may get you in the a$$ tomorrow!
  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4072
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2009, 10:47:29 AM »

Hmmmm.  "ran like crap" after installing an air cleaner.  So much for the adaptive fuel correction.  Should have run just like it did before the install if the "adaptive fuel correction" was as good as the previous post made it sound.

Oh, btw trahog, what kind of air cleaner did he get from that dealer for $500?  That's rather steep for the old fashioned SE air cleaner (MSRP $139.95).  Maybe it was the Heavy Breather ($299.95), or the Ventilator ($229.95), both flow better than the old SE round filter.  Still a pretty steep price though, since it shouldn't take more than 1/2 to 1 hour for the install.  Are you sure he didn't change mufflers as well?  Truth be told, that's what I had assumed when I first read this thread and posted my first reply, the good ol' Stage 1 air cleaner and slip-on upgrade, approximately $500.

Adaptive fuel correction is nothing special or new, it's been part of the system on every closed loop EFI I've ever seen.  However, the stock system is not designed to correct for performance modifications, it's only purpose is to make corrections required by the manufacturing variations in things like sensors, fuel pump volume and pressure, fuel injector flow, etc., and then to make small corrections over time as the various components wear.  This is all meant to maintain compliance with emissions regs over the life of the product, not to make it easy to do modifications.

If someone spends $500 plus on so-called performance mods, I naturally assume they want the bike to run better than stock.  Sure, up to the fairly narrow limits of the system you might get away with not using a tuning device.  For someone who just wants a slightly louder muffler for instance, and isn't unhappy with the heat and the way the stock bike runs, the change in flow probably won't exceed the ability of the ECM to compensate.  So the bike will run at 14.7:1 in closed loop, just as poorly and just as hot as it did when it was totally stock.  And without a dyno and exhaust gas analyzer, you won't really know what AFR you're running in open loop.  Probably can get away with it, since H-D's stock maps are a little rich at high rpm and wide open throttle to protect the engines.

Where I'm going with this can be basically boiled down to, do you really want maybe, might, probably; or do you want to know for sure?  Do you want stock performance after investing additional cash, or do you want better performance and reliability?  The way the current bikes run from the factory, I would personally use a tuner even if I had no plans to modify anything.

Jerry

PS.    As always, feel free to believe whatever you want.  I'm certain there are many things that I've been wrong about over the years, so I wouldn't want anyone to take my word as gospel.  Before taking the word of any individual, especially folks you've never met and don't know, I would recommend you do a little research somewhere other than on a public discussion web site.  The amount of BS I've seen on the web would be enough to fertilize every piece of arable land in the entire world, several times over, and leave plenty for other purposes as well.  If you want the straight skinny on a lot of this stuff, check with the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) or other reputable and well known technical organizations.

Jerry, I was going to say something along those lines about the ECU trying to run at 14.7:1, but thought I'd save my breath!  ;D :D ;)

Craig
Logged

ygeorgey

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2009, 11:56:01 AM »

I spoke with my dealer in San Diego about an air cleaner upgrade.  The dyno guy said their is no calibration for the 110 and the only way to do it is to install a tuner and to dyno it.  I was told the air cleaner would cause a lean condition and could cause damage.  They recommended leaving it stock if I wanted to maintain my warranty.  When have you heard a dealership not want to sell you something if it wasn't true?
Logged

2BWILD

  • Junior CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2009, 10:34:19 AM »

OK - I read all that and I'm even more confused. I've got a 09 SERG and have ordered new pipes and have an appt. to have them installed with a SERT next week. I am totally lost about what to do with the A/C. I would like to keep the stock cover. I've called several local HD dealers and no seems to have any good advise. Is the stock A/C on my bike considered a high flow A/C? Some suggest to replace the stock element with a K&N or Zippers. Does anyone know the replacement element part numbers for eirher of these or have any other suggestions. I don't want the HD Heavy Breather.
Logged

Rooster

  • 2.5K CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3771
  • FLhtcuse2.ORG
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2009, 02:45:27 PM »

I can tell you I had the A/N Big Sucker on mine and had more work done and when I got back on and rode home noticed the a/c was sticking out further found out it was swapped out for a Zippers one but I never asked why I guessed it must have worked better. :nixweiss:
Logged

grc

  • 10K CVO Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10335
  • AKA Grouchy Old Fart
    • IN


    • CVO1: 2005 SEEG2
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2009, 09:21:10 PM »

OK - I read all that and I'm even more confused. I've got a 09 SERG and have ordered new pipes and have an appt. to have them installed with a SERT next week. I am totally lost about what to do with the A/C. I would like to keep the stock cover. I've called several local HD dealers and no seems to have any good advise. Is the stock A/C on my bike considered a high flow A/C? Some suggest to replace the stock element with a K&N or Zippers. Does anyone know the replacement element part numbers for eirher of these or have any other suggestions. I don't want the HD Heavy Breather.

The stock air cleaner is in fact a high flow air cleaner.  I doubt you will do much better unless you go with the Heavy Breather or one of the other oversized units from the aftermarket that make you ride bowlegged.

Unfortunately at this time K&N still doesn't show a replacement element for your air cleaner.  I've suggested folks contact K&N and request they bring out a replacement, and I know several have done just that.  http://www.knfilters.com/products_needed/default.aspx?yr=2009&mk=HARLEY%20DAVIDSON&md=FLTRSE3%20CVO%20Road%20Glide&en=1800

Jerry
Logged
Jerry - 2005 Cherry SEEG  -  Member # 1155

H-D and me  -  a classic love / hate relationship.  Current score:  love 40, hate 50, bewildered 10.

2BWILD

  • Junior CVO Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2009, 09:54:42 PM »

Thanks Jerry - I'm from South Bend In.

I see you are also from NW In.
Logged

ultrabeef

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 31
  • 09 ultra

    • CVO1: '09 ultra
Re: screaming eagle air high flow air cleaner
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2009, 08:46:28 PM »

ran into this issue today: I assumed that I should replace the stock a/c on my 09 seuc because I am puttin' on the boss f/c. But my service guy said that it will provide plenty of air if I'm just adding the pipe and nothing else, and no need to map. If however you mess with the cam or really tune the pipe to that bike with a tuner, more air would be beneficial. I'm planning more improvements down the road but money is tight-baby steps
Logged
 

Page created in 0.175 seconds with 23 queries.