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Author Topic: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.  (Read 5453 times)

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SBB

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S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« on: July 31, 2009, 06:47:23 PM »

Here is a story about excessive noise from my 09 SEUC 110.

Please note,
This is the story and what I did to correct a problem, it worked for me and I'm sure that properly installed it will reduce noise in other 110's.


At around 11000 miles on the 09 I started to hear an excessive ticking sound from the lifters at cold start up.
The odd thing was that the ticking didn't happen at cold start everytime. I presumed that was caused by the position of the pushrods on the lifters at shut down.
The ticking sound was loud enough to be heard over other bikes exhaust but would only lasted maybe 20 to 25 seconds as the lifter began to pump up.
Upon start up the lifters pumped up and all was well, the bike ran good and strong.
At approx. 12000 miles I took the bike to the Harley shop and let them listen.
YES they said, you have a lifter bleeding down to cause that sound.
So I asked, how do you tell which one, the answer was, we don't, we just change all 4.
OK, I'm in with that. All 4 were changed.
A couple weeks later I rode up to Shenandoah Harley Davidson to meet d00d.
Life was good, till I cranked the bike, at 14000 miles and a cold start the ticking sound was back.
I took the bike back to the Harley shop, they called Harley Davidson, the Harley shop was told by the Motor Company to install a external oil pressure gauge to monitor oil pressure at start up. Never could get the excessive ticking sound at start up. But the good news was that at cold start up the oil pressure jumped to 38lbs. EVERYTIME!
The Harley shop started my bike at least 20 times and of that 20 times I was there for 18 of the cold start ups. No Ticking, My Luck.
Knowing that the bike would run good and strong I put another 1000 miles on it and as I approached the time to ride to Naitram's I had the Harley shop check it again to see if they could hear the ticking. Same results, they never could start it and make it tick excessively.
Knowing I had a 2600 mile trip in front of me I talked with a member of this site about this issue. He said to solve the problem I needed to install S&S lifters with travel limiters and the Screamin Eagle tapered pushrods.
I ride to Mass, NH and Maine and by the time I got home it was a 2600 mile trip and I had 17600 miles on the bike.
While I rode with d00d, Naitram and Sue at just about every cold start up We heard the excessive ticking.
When I got home I took the bike back to the Harley shop.
They put the external gauge on it and let it cool off. They cranked it, the gauge shot up to 38 and the lifters were ticking excessively. Finally, they heard it!
The tech called Harley Davidson expecting Harley Davidson to say "change the lifters again." Wrong, he was told he needed to spend the time to determine which lifter was bad.
He did that and told them he thought two of the lifters were bleeding down more than they should. Harley Davidson then asked, how long does these lifters tick loudly at cold start. The techs answer was, about 20 seconds or so. Harley Davidson told the tech to let it sit, till cold and then "time it" to determine how long it ticked excessively.
The tech did exactly that, he called Harley Davidson back and told them it ticks excessively approx 20 to 25 seconds at cold start up.
Now get this, Harley Davidson said excessive ticking on a 110 engine for 30 seconds or less was in spec!
The tech said are you kidding? They responded Sorry, not our problem, it's within spec.
The tech was amazed and told the service manager. The service manager called and got the same answer.
He told Harley Davidson that's unacceptable. He asked, what if we use Screamin Eagle lifters? They said that will not help. The service manager asked well what are your suggestions. Harley Davidson said, you could use the S&S lifters with travel limiters. The service manager asked, will you warranty that? Nope, the bike is within spec as is.
Great! At some point we must do what we have to do.

S&S lifters were ordered.
part number 33-5351  S & S high performance tappets with travel limiters

Screamin Eagle tapered pushrods were ordered.
http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524448771676&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302319517&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302319517&bmUID=1247796574630&bmLocale=en_US

There is good news to this story.
As many have read in the past I have stated that my 110 was a very noisy motor.
Was at mile 9 when I picked it up and always has been.

Not any more!
What a world of difference with the above parts installed.
My 110 now makes no more noise than the 95" SERG, the 95" Classic and the 103" SEEG.
WOW, what a reduction in valve train noise.
IMHO the Harley Davidson Motor Company failed to treat a very faithful and loyal customer properly.
I understand now that doing the right and fair thing may not always be how Harley Davidson chooses to handle their warranty work and plan to address that with The Motor Company in my own way.
How that turns out will be another post!

But for now, the 09 SEUC at 10 months old is running great, strong and quiet.

SBB
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 07:31:20 PM by SBB »
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2009, 06:56:43 PM »

HeHe!!! Lotsa words just to say "get the HD junk outta the 110 and use REAL parts in em"!!! Been saying that since day one! Ya can't expect parts from a 60HP motor, to hold up at 100-130 HP! Leave it BONE STOCK, you MIGHT be OK! Do any mods, good luck with them 110's holding together!!! Build a real bottom end, use quality barrels and pistons, overhaul the valvetrain and cam setup, change TB's, now you're talking a REAL engine! You prolly never heard me say this before, so here goes.....................................................................





























THIS CHIT AIN'T ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!! ;D ;D :D

FTF!!! FTD!!! FTW!!! ;)





BTW, Lifters and Pushrods aren't intake or exhaust parts. They're engine parts. So this prolly belongs in Twin Cam! ::)

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« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 07:03:48 PM by Hoist! »
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2009, 07:48:40 PM »

no more coffee can full of rocks is a good thing. but help a guy out here what does S&S do differently that "limits travel"
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2009, 07:53:55 PM »

Chip,

Glad the problem has been resolved and hope that the S&S travel limiters continue to perform well.

Naitram,

S&S travel limiters are available for most hydraulic lifters. They are actually spacers that fit inside the bore of the lifter to prevent it from bleeding down too far or collapsing during high load situations.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 08:10:44 PM by hdfr120 »
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2009, 08:16:08 PM »

no more coffee can full of rocks is a good thing. but help a guy out here what does S&S do differently that "limits travel"

Stock lifter total internal travel is .200/inch.  "Travel Limiters" are spacers installed into the lifter body that reduce total internal lifter travel to .100/inch.  With properly adjusted pushrod length, internal lifter travel is set to a max. of .050".

The travel limiters reduce the amount of valvetrain clearance that is possible in any number of conditions.  Most important maybe is at startup(especially important a hot motor).  And travel limiters reduce the potential for valve float at high RPM conditions.

Do you ever notice that when your motor is hot, and your oil pressure drops to almost nothing at idle - like at a stop sign or exit ramp - that your motor sounds noisier that normal?  That is because at low oil pressure (like you have with a hot motor at idle), you do not have enough oil pressure to keep the lifters expanded (pumped up) - so the result is looseness in the valve train - which causes noise.  When you accelerate away, the motor gets quiet again, because increased oil pressure as your RPM increases has again expanded the lifters to eliminate the looseness with hydraulic pressure.  Without travel limiters, the looseness is .100 or greater.  With travel limiters, the looseness is limited to .050.

Starting a hot motor is easier with travel limiters, because again, you are limited to .050 max looseness vs. .100/.125 looseness with stock lifters.  This looseness effects your motor timing - up until the lifters pump up and expand - (which eliminates the looseness - and corrects your timing).  

And, at high RPM, where there is a potential to "float" your valves - you are again limited to .050 max looseness.  Valve float occurs when the RPM becomes so great that the centrifigal force of motion overcomes the hydraulic lift capability of the lifters.  The "weight" of the valvetrain (including centrifical force) can become stronger than the hydraulic capability of the lifter at very high RPM - (the hydraulic capability of the lifter at whatever oil pressure you are running).   Travel limiters reduce the amount valves can "float".
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2009, 08:27:06 PM »

so this is a modification to the HD lifter, not a complete lifter assembly from S&S?
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2009, 08:29:21 PM »

so this is a modification to the HD lifter, not a complete lifter assembly from S&S?

It can be a modification to a HD lifter - but S&S makes a far superior lifter (IMO).  You can buy the S&S lifter with travel limiters already pre-installed.
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2009, 08:39:30 PM »

thanks for the clarification
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2009, 09:31:39 PM »

It can be a modification to a HD lifter - but S&S makes a far superior lifter (IMO).  You can buy the S&S lifter with travel limiters already pre-installed.


And that's what I had installed in mine!
Along with the Harley tapered pushrods.

SBB




Quote
Chip,

Glad the problem has been resolved and hope that the S&S travel limiters continue to perform well.
Thanks

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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2009, 10:21:37 PM »

Chip, are these Expensive lifters or EXPENSIVE lifters?  I know, compared to the cost of a motor they're cheap.  But still curious.
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2009, 10:28:22 PM »

Chip, are these Expensive lifters or EXPENSIVE lifters?  I know, compared to the cost of a motor they're cheap.  But still curious.

R&R sells em for 229.95 plus shipping.  

JW
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 10:30:00 PM by Black Diamond »
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2009, 10:34:21 PM »

Chip

I'm experiencing a little ticking myself. Thanks for the info. You too Scott!

MoCo..You are not doing the right thing here!

JW
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2009, 10:45:43 PM »

R&R sells em for 229.95 plus shipping.  

JW

Thanks Jeff.  I did a quick look but didn't realize until after I'd transposed two in the part number.  So I found squat.
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2009, 10:47:07 PM »

Chip, are these Expensive lifters or EXPENSIVE lifters?  I know, compared to the cost of a motor they're cheap.  But still curious.

S&S MSRP is $269...  You can get them as cheap as $229 from several sources...
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Re: S&S lifters and new pushrods for my 09 110.
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2009, 10:48:55 PM »

If they remove the ticking sound, they would be worth every penny. 1st going to try adjusting em per TR (T-Mans) specs.

JW
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