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[FlaHeatWave]

I never subscribed to "The Sky is Falling" threads on the forums until they signed me up when I wasn't lookin'

'Spoke with Service at my Dealer yesterday about the '09 SERG <10k miles and was told about a problem with the front rod bearing.

'Went to Dealer this AM and checked It out, and sure enough, the front rod had 2x the lateral play as the rear one, way out of spec.

The bike was running fine, no unusual noises to me, when I brought it in for Cartridge Forks and to update to the '10 and later fairing brackets to accommodate the vented lowers and the SE Stage III Pro Kit.

My Tech there (who is the only one that touches any of my bikes) was surprised that he didn't hear much of a noise either, said that it would start making more noise then fail very soon. He has shown me 4-5 rod sets in the last 2-3 months that were bad, not much rhyme or reason as to engine size, stock/modified, year etc... Just lucky, I guess?

A good friend of mine had to replace the crank last month in his '12 Skunk, it was making a racket at 16k mi. He is going back Darkhorse, Carrillo, Lefty, Timken etc.

We'll get the kinks out when I get a new crank...

[Retired rider]

Front rod bearing failure on my 08 ultra 110. Thank god for ESP option? Getting new lower end cams etc and a rental bike. Woo Hooo.

[HDGearHead]

Instead of buying a new crank, contact Darkhorse and ask them about repairing your existing crank.  They can probably install H-beam rods, true, plug, weld and balance your existing crank for close to the same price as an new moco replacement.

[murphy]

X2, why risk putting another new "quality" HD crank in when you could have to repair it again down the road!

[FlaHeatWave]

'Spoke with the General Manager, Service Manager, and The Tech that works on all my CVOs at length, at separate times, and they all talked me out of going aftermarket or modding (Darkhorse etc...) the bottom end with "preventive measures" for a variety of reasons. They know I'm willing to spend the $$$ if it makes sense, not just for braggin'.

The biggest reasons are that the '09 has 4.5 years of ESP left  and I travel a good bit.

Also I have faith that The Tech will set all of the tolerances properly (better than the factory) as I have never had a problem after he has worked on any of my CVOs over the years.

I am fortunate to have a good relationship with Heritage HD in Ft. Walton

'Am disappointed with The MoCo though~a bad crank at <10k mi.

'Just lucky I guess...

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Your dealership should get up to speed with the services that Darkhorse Crankworks(their name says what they do)offers.
Once they attend to the needs of that crank, you WILL NOT, have an issue with that, and your dealer can sleep well, knowing they took care of their customer with the world-class crank repair, that the Moco only can have wet dreams about.
Scott

[Lever]

x2 Dark Horse cranks

[murphy]

If your warranty is done, or you don't have an extended one, there is no way I'd put a stock crank back in if the motor was torn down that far, it's not the dealer who will be out the $$$ two years down the road when it happens all over again.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Odd that one would think that a dealership would not warranty that level of crankshaft work, when it is a faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar superior product than the Moco could possibly conjure up, in their mass-produced robotic slap-it-togatherness.
Scott

[Fired00d]

JMHO... but there is no way I would/could go that deep into the motor for repairs and not get the crank trued/welded in the process. I don't care what anybody suggested/told me my (limited) education on the subject suggest do it right the first time especially if the bike is tore down that far. The fact that it is in its present condition is reason enough for me not to replace it w/the same (new) parts that caused the problem.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[murphy]

JMHO... but there is no way I would/could go that deep into the motor for repairs and not get the crank trued/welded in the process. I don't care what anybody suggested/told me my (limited) education on the subject suggest do it right the first time especially if the bike is tore down that far. The fact that it is in its present condition is reason enough for me not to replace it w/the same (new) parts that caused the problem.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

JMHO... but when I saw your name come up in this thread I thought you were going to pull an admin on it and move it somewhere that I couldn't find it anymore!

Really glad it was just a post!

 

[FlaHeatWave]

I agree with you all that Darkhorse or Revolution is the way to go. And my dealer will allow me to do anything I want with the situation, (as long as I pay the difference for the upgrades~which I think is more than fair) SE crank / SE crank w/ mods, stock crank, stock crank w/ mods, S&S crank, Darkhorse crank etc... and they would warranty that work out of their dealership, out of their pocket, if they do the install.

Here is where the big "but" comes into play... I travel a good bit, If I am on the road and have a problem and have to go to a "foreign dealer" and the ESP rep or a "foreign dealer" sees a welded / aftermarket crank, than I am SOL and have to eat it. Whereas ESP will replace stock cranks 'till the cows come home... . Going after market is just not in MY "risk / reward" scenario on this bike. If the crank fails again, as soon as the original did, (<10k) then I might rethink my strategy.

A good friend of mine that has been averaging 30k+ miles/year since '06 had the rod bearings go out in his Skunk at 16k, he is going the Darkhorse, Carrillo, Lefty, Timken, Fueling, 113 etc... route and I'm sure that it will be bada$$ as his two previous bikes were. It's just not in MY scenario.

As noted previously, there is 4.5 years of ESP remaining on the '09 SERG.

[BryantH]

This is an interesting subject -

FlaHeatWave, sorry to hear about your crank and the other issue's you're having with you 09 SERG. I have one as well with about 23,000 on it at the moment. By the end of the year, I'll be well over 30,000. To note, I also purchased the extended 7 year ESP (2 factory and 5 ESP), when I purchased in 2009 and mines is up December 2015. I have been trying to do the math on how you will have ESP coverage for another 4.5 years on a 2009 bike, with us being in 2013? That brings you close to 2018?

In any case, you nailed it on the head in doing what you feel is best for the riding you plan to do. Wishing you many miles of joy with your SERG.

BryantH

[FlaHeatWave]

This is an interesting subject -

FlaHeatWave, sorry to hear about your crank and the other issue's you're having with you 09 SERG. I have one as well with about 23,000 on it at the moment. By the end of the year, I'll be well over 30,000. To note, I also purchased the extended 7 year ESP (2 factory and 5 ESP), when I purchased in 2009 and mines is up December 2015. I have been trying to do the math on how you will have ESP coverage for another 4.5 years on a 2009 bike, with us being in 2013? That brings you close to 2018?

BryantH,
I purchased the '09 SERG 6/12 with 2,420 miles on it from a guy in PA.
Even though the factory warranty was expired, Harley has an ESP program that allowed me to purchase extended warranty up to 5yrs, almost the same as if the factory warranty was still in effect. There was an inspection of the bike involved, some mileage criteria (I think <75k mi.) and a 300 mile "waiting" period after you buy the ESP for the ESP to take effect. This bike fit right in, I'm glad I got it 

 BryantH, have you had any drama with your '09 SERG ??

In any case, you nailed it on the head in doing what you feel is best for the riding you plan to do. Wishing you many miles of joy with your SERG.
Thanks,
FHW

BryantH

[grc]

It would appear you have already made up your mind about how you plan to proceed, so I suppose I shouldn't waste your time with another post.  But I couldn't ignore a comment you made earlier about your tech setting tolerances better than the factory.  "I have faith that The Tech will set all of the tolerances properly (better than the factory)"

Unless your guy is equipped to break down the flywheel assembly (crankshaft), replace the rods, bearings, and crankpin, and press it all back together, he won't be setting the tolerances of the flywheel assembly, Harley will.  I'm assuming your dealer is like most these days, they just replace the entire assembly and don't rebuild them like they did in the EVO era.

A flywheel assembly from Harley will be very likely to have the same poor tolerances as most seem to have these days, as well as the cheapened parts, so there is no guarantee it will be any better than your original.  I don't know about you, but if I were out traveling somewhere and it failed again, the fact that the ESP might cover it again wouldn't offset the inconvenience and general feeling of being highly pizzed off.  While stuff can still happen even with the Darkhorse rebuilt assemblies, the odds are much better for a failure free future with their stuff versus Harley's crap.  And I'm pretty sure they offer a warrantee as well.

JMHO - Jerry

[HD Street Performance]

All good points
The factory spec for lateral rod clearance maximum is .020 IIRC. Did you see them check this? I am just a bit skeptical. We see other crank issues but this one seems to be rabid at this dealership and not at all common in the rest of the community.
One other point, I don't believe the softails received heads as part of the 2007 program update just the "A" motor baggers.

[grc]

All good points
The factory spec for lateral rod clearance maximum is .020 IIRC. Did you see them check this? I am just a bit skeptical. We see other crank issues but this one seems to be rabid at this dealership and not at all common in the rest of the community.
One other point, I don't believe the softails received heads as part of the 2007 program update just the "A" motor baggers.

Correct Don.  However, I think that was a different thread.  The Softies only got ACR's and gaskets, no heads.  Somehow Harley must have found a way to put all the bad heads on the engines that went into the Touring models only. 

Jerry

[CowboyBagger]

I contemplated the same decision as you.  I'm doing an engine build and I had about 30 members recommend to me to get the bottom end done while I was at it.  I really didn't want to spend the extra 1700 even though I knew they were correct.  In my mind, here is how I made the decision:

If I stayed with stock:  I would always have the feeling that the SOB would be flying apart any second.

If Darkhorse did the bottom end:  I'll have the feeling that this SOB is going to last for ev er!

I chose the latter.

Cowboy

[Fired00d]

'Spoke with the General Manager, Service Manager, and The Tech that works on all my CVOs at length, at separate times, and they all talked me out of going aftermarket or modding (Darkhorse etc...) the bottom end with "preventive measures" for a variety of reasons. They know I'm willing to spend the $$$ if it makes sense, not just for braggin'.

The biggest reasons are that the '09 has 4.5 years of ESP left  and I travel a good bit.

Also I have faith that The Tech will set all of the tolerances properly (better than the factory) as I have never had a problem after he has worked on any of my CVOs over the years.

I am fortunate to have a good relationship with Heritage HD in Ft. Walton

'Am disappointed with The MoCo though~a bad crank at <10k mi.

'Just lucky I guess...

I agree with you all that Darkhorse or Revolution is the way to go. And my dealer will allow me to do anything I want with the situation, (as long as I pay the difference for the upgrades~which I think is more than fair) SE crank / SE crank w/ mods, stock crank, stock crank w/ mods, S&S crank, Darkhorse crank etc... and they would warranty that work out of their dealership, out of their pocket, if they do the install.

Here is where the big "but" comes into play... I travel a good bit, If I am on the road and have a problem and have to go to a "foreign dealer" and the ESP rep or a "foreign dealer" sees a welded / aftermarket crank, than I am SOL and have to eat it. Whereas ESP will replace stock cranks 'till the cows come home... . Going after market is just not in MY "risk / reward" scenario on this bike. If the crank fails again, as soon as the original did, (<10k) then I might rethink my strategy.

A good friend of mine that has been averaging 30k+ miles/year since '06 had the rod bearings go out in his Skunk at 16k, he is going the Darkhorse, Carrillo, Lefty, Timken, Fueling, 113 etc... route and I'm sure that it will be bada$$ as his two previous bikes were. It's just not in MY scenario.

As noted previously, there is 4.5 years of ESP remaining on the '09 SERG.

First off it's your money and your bike but several things (which I have highlighted above) really stick out for me. Like most of us sounds like you are (said w/the utmost respect) anal about who touches/works on your bike (present poster included ). With that said and taking into consideration your statement of you traveling a lot would you really want a "foreign" mechanic/technician at a "foreign" dealership doing major repairs on your bike??... I wouldn't!!! I've always been of the mindset that if my bike were to break down on the road and require major mechanical repairs I would ship, trailer, tow, whatever my bike back to the dealership/shop/technician that I feel most comfortable with and to further validate that reasoning it adds insurance so to speak if there are complications/problems down the road resulting from that work I can take it back to the dealership/shop that did the work. By your own words you have a good relationship w/your dealer, trust the technician that is going to work on your bike, and that dealership/technician will back there work (whether it be a stock crank or any other crank) to me it would be no way I wouldn't want to have the most reliable and proven parts in my bike.

Anyway as I started this post... it's your money, your bike.... best of luck with whichever way you go.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[FlaHeatWave]

All good points
The factory spec for lateral rod clearance maximum is .020 IIRC. Did you see them check this? I am just a bit skeptical. We see other crank issues but this one seems to be rabid at this dealership and not at all common in the rest of the community.
One other point, I don't believe the softails received heads as part of the 2007 program update just the "A" motor baggers.

I've never owned a softail.
The GM told me what the specs are and what my '09 SERG measured at, I didn't committ them to memory as I was going to look at it myself, (I was a mechanic for the better part of 20 yrs, 'worked mostly on boats, cars, my bikes, and heavy equipment, boats & cars were at dealerships) and when I moved the front rod laterally, then did the same to the rear, there was over 2x the play in the front. I knew it had to be out of spec, and fixin' to cut loose. If I was doing the work, I would have measured it properly as I'm sure my Tech did

As far as "rabid at this dealership" my good friend's Skunk had the rods cut loose earlier this month at 16k mi. in central Mississippi, and he is from the east coast...   

[FlaHeatWave]

Your dealership should get up to speed with the services that Darkhorse Crankworks(their name says what they do)offers.
Once they attend to the needs of that crank, you WILL NOT, have an issue with that, and your dealer can sleep well, knowing they took care of their customer with the world-class crank repair, that the Moco only can have wet dreams about.
Scott

My dealer knows that Darkhorse is the best in the business and Revolution ain't bad either. I'm not worried that the Darkhorse will cut loose, just that something else will, and take out the Darkhorse artwork.

And I totally agree with you that the Darkhorse product is exponentially superior to the MoCo's! The MoCo should weld the cranks at the factory. (although I don't know if welding would prevent the rod bearing failure?)

The SE crank installed in my FXDWG2 is a work of art, it has billet H-beam rods and wheels. If I saw one of those in the current SE catalogue, I would have one in a NY second!!!

Scott, do you have any idea what is actually causing the rod bearings to fail on stock / mild build motors??? my '09 SERG is stock w/ pipe, tune, ac. My friend's Skunk is SE Stage III.

If I could talk the folks at ESP into covering just the labor on a Darkhorse if it had to be replaced, I would be "all in"

[FlaHeatWave]

If your warranty is done, or you don't have an extended one, there is no way I'd put a stock crank back in if the motor was torn down that far, it's not the dealer who will be out the $$$ two years down the road when it happens all over again.

As posted earlier 4.5 years remaining

[FlaHeatWave]

It would appear you have already made up your mind about how you plan to proceed, so I suppose I shouldn't waste your time with another post.  But I couldn't ignore a comment you made earlier about your tech setting tolerances better than the factory.  "I have faith that The Tech will set all of the tolerances properly (better than the factory)"

Unless your guy is equipped to break down the flywheel assembly (crankshaft), replace the rods, bearings, and crankpin, and press it all back together, he won't be setting the tolerances of the flywheel assembly, Harley will.  I'm assuming your dealer is like most these days, they just replace the entire assembly and don't rebuild them like they did in the EVO era.

A flywheel assembly from Harley will be very likely to have the same poor tolerances as most seem to have these days, as well as the cheapened parts, so there is no guarantee it will be any better than your original.  I don't know about you, but if I were out traveling somewhere and it failed again, the fact that the ESP might cover it again wouldn't offset the inconvenience and general feeling of being highly pizzed off.  While stuff can still happen even with the Darkhorse rebuilt assemblies, the odds are much better for a failure free future with their stuff versus Harley's crap.  And I'm pretty sure they offer a warrantee as well.

JMHO - Jerry

Jerry,
Are you kidding me??? When was the last time you saw a truing jig in a Dealership???LOL!!! All 99% of these guys can do is plug and play.

As far as My Tech goes, I was referring to shimming and installing the crank properly (some of the kids can't even do that)

Darkhorse does have a warranty, so does Revolution, it's the labor I'm concerned with.

Thanks for the input.

AGOF = Another Grouchy Old Fart

[FlaHeatWave]

FiredOOd,
I agree with most, if not all, of your points.

As far as trip interuption goes- I guess the circumstances of the trip will dictate what action(s) I will take...

Don't get me wrong, If the bottom end $hits the bed again, before I take the '09 SERG on the road again, I will throw in the "kitchen sink" Darkhorse, Carrillo, Lefty, Timken, Fueling etc...  or put it back to stock and get rid of it.

There's always the '05 SEEG that has been bulletproof since day one!!! It's stock and it will "smoke" the 110 (I wasted the ESP $$$ on that one.)

Thanks for the input,
FHW

[HDGearHead]

You need to do what your comfortable with.  For me, I chose to go with Darkhorse and timken bearing even though my ESP runs through to 2017.  

My stock crank already had .010 runout after 12k miles.  The fact that my Darkhorse crank has zero runout and will stay that way forever means that I don't have to worry about any of the problems that could have occurred with an OE crank in the future.  You'll be lucky to find a new OE crank that has .003-.004 runout out of the box and that will potentially increase over time.

My goal was to make the bottom end as bullet proof as possible while I was in it and ESP was paying for it (I paid the difference).  

While its true that ESP may not cover it in the future in the rare chance that I have a problem, however my goal was to eliminate future problems in the first place.  Installing a OE crank greatly increases the chances that I could have additional problem at some point in the future.  I'd rather have a good, strong, reliable motor that doesn't require an ESP than have a motor requires one.

With my luck, if I had chosen to install a OE crank, it would work reliably until just after my ESP coverage ends and then fail causing me to pay the full price replacement cost then.  I'd then be been kicking my self in the a*s about not having gone with Darkhorse and a timken when I had the opportunity to do so.

If you still choose to stay with a OE crank, at least consider having them install a timken.  Its much more tolerant and forgiving of cranks with runout than the OE or SE roller bearings.  

[FlaHeatWave]

HDGearHead,

What actually failed in your bottom end? rod bearings?

How many miles at failure?

What is involved in installing a Timken? Does it take a machine shop, or can a dealer do it?


Thanks for the info

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

It would appear you have already made up your mind about how you plan to proceed, so I suppose I shouldn't waste your time with another post.  But I couldn't ignore a comment you made earlier about your tech setting tolerances better than the factory.  "I have faith that The Tech will set all of the tolerances properly (better than the factory)"

Unless your guy is equipped to break down the flywheel assembly (crankshaft), replace the rods, bearings, and crankpin, and press it all back together, he won't be setting the tolerances of the flywheel assembly, Harley will.  I'm assuming your dealer is like most these days, they just replace the entire assembly and don't rebuild them like they did in the EVO era.

A flywheel assembly from Harley will be very likely to have the same poor tolerances as most seem to have these days, as well as the cheapened parts, so there is no guarantee it will be any better than your original.  I don't know about you, but if I were out traveling somewhere and it failed again, the fact that the ESP might cover it again wouldn't offset the inconvenience and general feeling of being highly pizzed off.  While stuff can still happen even with the Darkhorse rebuilt assemblies, the odds are much better for a failure free future with their stuff versus Harley's crap.  And I'm pretty sure they offer a warrantee as well.

JMHO - Jerry

Extremely good points being made in this comment!!
Scott

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

FiredOOd,
I agree with most, if not all, of your points.

As far as trip interuption goes- I guess the circumstances of the trip will dictate what action(s) I will take...

Don't get me wrong, If the bottom end $hits the bed again, before I take the '09 SERG on the road again, I will throw in the "kitchen sink" Darkhorse, Carrillo, Lefty, Timken, Fueling etc...  or put it back to stock and get rid of it.

There's always the '05 SEEG that has been bulletproof since day one!!! It's stock and it will "smoke" the 110 (I wasted the ESP $$$ on that one.)

Thanks for the input,
FHW

Would not take much for the 110" you own, to PILE DRIVE that 05 into the weeds.
Scott

[FlaHeatWave]

Scott,

I know there is no replacement for displacement.

'Was just talking about stock vs stock.

As I asked you in a previous post; What is it that is causing the rod bearings to fail so soon???

Thank you for your input,

FHW

[HD Street Performance]

when I moved the front rod laterally, then did the same to the rear, there was over 2x the play in the front

This is normal. I will go measure one and update with the numbers I get, if you are interested.
If there is binding or roughness moving for and aft that is bad, if there is any play you can fee radially this is also a problem.

You are getting a new HD crank which isn't any better than the one in your bike now other than it is new. The HD spec for runout is .012", and that will wear an oil pump and cam plate bushing real fast resulting is a very unhappy motor. Many new cranks are at .006 right out of the box.

Frankly if it were mine I would intervene and say to hell with ESP, pay and get your crank welded, plugged and trued, minimum. The Timken hearing and H-beam rods and all that is likely not needed for your state of tune. The crank shop will examine the rod end play and determine if there is excessive wear. These days that work goes to Silvermoon by me.

This pile of cranks pulled for lateral play just smells a little funny to me. There are a boatload of other issues that can cause noise in the 110 twin cam.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

We have not witnessed the actual rod bearings failing here, but rather the flywheels shift, and whip the pump and cam plate to death to the point when a client will bring one in, the common complaint is a noisy valvetrain, from lack of oil pressure to the lifter area.
I suppose that if they were ridden long enough in the event that the pump was getting pounded, lack of pressure thru the pinion shaft, not bleeding the proper amount thru the rod bearings would/could burn them up.
In extreme cases(and have not seen this in a 110"er)the wheels will shift so much that they we cause the female rad to bind on the flywheel halves.
As Don has mentioned, the side/side is not a deal breaker, but ANY up/down that is felt will be.
Scott

[HD Street Performance]

Now two non-believers.

[FlaHeatWave]

I stand corrected, you guys build 'em for a living, I don't. I'm not being pissy here, just that I appreciate your expertise and your input.

The rods that the Tech showed me in the in the prior months (not mine) with the jugs and pistons removed, the rods would stay in any position that you moved them to and not flop down to the cases, and when you moved the rods, they were rough, like the rollers had flat spots.

Is the lateral play so much more in the front because they are siamesed rods?

On my '09 the Tech and the GM did tell me what the specs are and what mine were, and they are out of spec.

And like I said here several times, I agree with you all, that Darkhorse and aftermarket is the way to go.

I'll probably have 20k+mi. on this bike in the next 2 years, when it fails again, I'll definitely go that route.

[sadunbar]

I stand corrected, you guys build 'em for a living, I don't. I'm not being pissy here, just that I appreciate your expertise and your input.

The rods that the Tech showed me in the in the prior months (not mine) with the jugs and pistons removed, the rods would stay in any position that you moved them to and not flop down to the cases, and when you moved the rods, they were rough, like the rollers had flat spots.

Is the lateral play so much more in the front because they are siamesed rods?

On my '09 the Tech and the GM did tell me what the specs are and what mine were, and they are out of spec.

And like I said here several times, I agree with you all, that Darkhorse and aftermarket is the way to go.

I'll probably have 20k+mi. on this bike in the next 2 years, when it fails again, I'll definitely go that route.

"when it fails again, I'll definitely go that route"     

 

[Fired00d]

"when it fails again, I'll definitely go that route"     

 

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[FlaHeatWave]

"when it fails again, I'll definitely go that route"     

 

ESP will fix it again.

We all know about Murphy's Law. Ed's Law is that Murphy was an optimist 
Ed

[HD Street Performance]

stay in any position

OK that is FUBARd but repairable by a specialty shop

[HDGearHead]

HDGearHead,

What actually failed in your bottom end? rod bearings?

How many miles at failure?

What is involved in installing a Timken? Does it take a machine shop, or can a dealer do it?


Thanks for the info

A skilled/quality dealer tech can install the Timken.  Darkhorse or T-Man can also do it for you (as well as the crank/flywheel work as well).

Darkhorse http://www.darkhorsecrankworks.com/index.html
T-Man Flywheel Rebuilding http://tmanperformance.com/?page_id=932
T-Man Timken Insert and Installation http://tmanperformance.com/?page_id=944

My entire engine was rebuilt at 12K miles due to a lifter failure.  Significant metal contamination through-out the motor.  

Essentially ESP replaced everything but the case halves, cylinders, heads and rocker boxes.  I sent my entire top-end to T-Man for the CVO Street Performer kit treatment.  The dealer worked with me on the performance and reliability mods that I wanted.  I only paid out of pocket for the difference in parts prices.  
 
IMHO the Harley C lifters were garbage.  I installed S&S lifters with limiters during the rebuild.  While you're in there, consider installing adjustable pushrods and replacing your OE HD lifters with Fueling or S&S as well.  

[fastfreddy]

you can lead a hourse to water but you cant make him drink

[zn14]

let me ask all of you for advice, BUT I don't plan on taking any of it??

[grc]

let me ask all of you for advice, BUT I don't plan on taking any of it??

Actually, if you go back and read the first post of this thread he didn't ask for our advice, he was just reporting what had happened.  We didn't wait for him to ask for advice, we offered it up whether he asked or not.  When it's all said and done, it's his bike and his money, thus it's his decision.

Jerry

[timo482]

i agree, his bike, his peace of mind.

i have left my bike completely alone during the esp - that ends in august

after that what gets done will not be for "more POWER" but for "last longer"

for sure ill do the lifters the week before the esp is up & ill probably pay the dealer to do the lifters - then if they find anything its covered. next winter ill do inner cam bearings and check the crank.

anything more than that and id be highly inclined to do a factory reman, its not very expensive, done by s&s, comes with another year of warranty.

esp is sort of a bargain with the devil, i promise to leave the engine alone - you promise to fix anything that goes wrong....

to

[FlaHeatWave]

Actually, if you go back and read the first post of this thread he didn't ask for our advice, he was just reporting what had happened.  We didn't wait for him to ask for advice, we offered it up whether he asked or not.  When it's all said and done, it's his bike and his money, thus it's his decision.

Jerry

Jerry,
Thank you for reading,
I was going to say; blo me! to one of the posters.

All can see in my avatar; 3 CVOs, and in my introduction, "bought a Sporty in '76, never been without a HD since, 'had the Maxed Out GPZ 1100, bikes my whole life"...

'Have a good bit of miles, more than most, not as much as some...

The '01 FXDWG2 Switchblade is my "hot rod" ( > $8k in the ALL Screamin' Eagle drive train) and it is into the '10s as it traps near 120. (the FXDWG2 has "smoked" a built V-Rod, and everything else that I have ever run across) We built the Switchblade in '05-'06 and, I know that there is newer technology out there now, but nobody has gotten into my feelings yet... The FXDWG2 is REALLY QUICK with the underdriven 6sp and the 150 rear tire, It's "all hookin' up"

I'm pushin' 60 and 'don't really care 'bout running that hard  anymore, that's why the FXDWG2 is for sale. I just want the '09 to get out of it's own way.

My Dad, the Senior Master Chief Machinist Mate, (when i was a young buck, reading Hot Rod magazine and feeding into 0-60 & 1/4 mi. numbers) explained to me that ease of maintenance and longevity were "performance characteristics"

Of course, I am disappointed with the longevity of the '09, and my good friend's Skunk, but out of how many of the hundreds of thousands of Harleys produced ever have a failure like this? We all know there is a lot of "Sky is Falling" threads on all the forums, not just this one.

After 50k mi., I have only made one ESP claim on the '05 SEEG, and that was to update the cam chain tensioners, so far ESP is "up" on that one. I will probably be "up" on the ESP on the '09


After 18 years as a mechanic (following in my father's footsteps), I don't bust knuckles anymore, and I like having ESP, at this point in my life. Also, I think that ESP is a selling point, if I choose to do so.

I've also heard that the stock 6 speeds have some issues.


Again, for the last time- When (if?) it blows up again, ESP will pay for it and I will either throw the "kitchen sink" at the '09, and get a rebate for the remainder of the ESP, or go back stock and get rid of it.



 AGOF to aGOF

[jeff mckinney]

If you went with an out of the box,not modded se crank,and paid the difference,would that not void your warranty?

[murphy]

Jerry,
Thank you for reading,
I was going to say; blo me! to one of the posters.

All can see in my avatar; 3 CVOs, and in my introduction, "bought a Sporty in '76, never been without a HD since, 'had the Maxed Out GPZ 1100, bikes my whole life"...

'Have a good bit of miles, more than most, not as much as some...

The '01 FXDWG2 Switchblade is my "hot rod" ( > $8k in the ALL Screamin' Eagle drive train) and it is into the '10s as it traps near 120. (the FXDWG2 has "smoked" a built V-Rod, and everything else that I have ever run across) We built the Switchblade in '05-'06 and, I know that there is newer technology out there now, but nobody has gotten into my feelings yet... The FXDWG2 is REALLY QUICK with the underdriven 6sp and the 150 rear tire, It's "all hookin' up"

I'm pushin' 60 and 'don't really care 'bout running that hard  anymore, that's why the FXDWG2 is for sale. I just want the '09 to get out of it's own way.

My Dad, the Senior Master Chief Machinist Mate, (when i was a young buck, reading Hot Rod magazine and feeding into 0-60 & 1/4 mi. numbers) explained to me that ease of maintenance and longevity were "performance characteristics"

Of course, I am disappointed with the longevity of the '09, and my good friend's Skunk, but out of how many of the hundreds of thousands of Harleys produced ever have a failure like this? We all know there is a lot of "Sky is Falling" threads on all the forums, not just this one.

After 50k mi., I have only made one ESP claim on the '05 SEEG, and that was to update the cam chain tensioners, so far ESP is "up" on that one. I will probably be "up" on the ESP on the '09


After 18 years as a mechanic (following in my father's footsteps), I don't bust knuckles anymore, and I like having ESP, at this point in my life. Also, I think that ESP is a selling point, if I choose to do so.

I've also heard that the stock 6 speeds have some issues.


Again, for the last time- When (if?) it blows up again, ESP will pay for it and I will either throw the "kitchen sink" at the '09, and get a rebate for the remainder of the ESP, or go back stock and get rid of it.



 AGOF to aGOF

Blow is spelt "blow" not "blo".

[SBB]

Blow is spelt "blow" not "blo".

Blow, blo or blew he made his point very clear!
Good job FlaHeatWave.

 

SBB

[FlaHeatWave]

If you went with an out of the box,not modded se crank,and paid the difference,would that not void your warranty?

The SE crank that we put in the '01 FXDWG2 in '05, came with billet H-beam rods.

The SE cranks / rods in the current catalogue for the 110s look the same as the original one (cast or forged, I don't know ?). My Dealer told me to "save your money".

If the current SE cranks had the billet H-beam rods, no question, I would have went that route.

To answer your question; I would have a better chance getting an unmodified SE crank past ESP than a modded one

[FlaHeatWave]

Blow, blo or blew he made his point very clear!
Good job FlaHeatWave.

 

SBB

I ran spell check, 'just wanted to get it past the admins 

[SBB]

I ran spell check, 'just wanted to get it past the admins 

 

SBB

[CAR GUY]

 I have been reading this great website for about 10 years. Sorry but  I had to jump in on this topic. My '05 CVO 103's crank failed at 10,100 miles. After two phone calls  to H-D they agreed to warranty the job (out of warranty). I read all over the web that these crank failures in twin cam H-Ds are more common than I realized. I investigated all angles new H-D crank or rework old crank. Anybody who researches this topic and gets educated will do what I did. Send the old crank to Hoban's Cycle (Dark Horse). Adrian is a good Dude.  Have them true, balance, pin & weld the crank and be done with the BS. 

[FlaHeatWave]

I have been reading this great website for about 10 years. Sorry but  I had to jump in on this topic. My '05 CVO 103's crank failed at 10,100 miles. After two phone calls  to H-D they agreed to warranty the job (out of warranty). I read all over the web that these crank failures in twin cam H-Ds are more common than I realized. I investigated all angles new H-D crank or rework old crank. Anybody who researches this topic and gets educated will do what I did. Send the old crank to Hoban's Cycle (Dark Horse). Adrian is a good Dude.  Have them true, balance, pin & weld the crank and be done with the BS. 

My '05 SEEG is coming up on 50k mi. with 0 drama.

A good friend of mine that averages runs a lot of miles is on his third bike since '06;
his '06 SE Ultra 103 = 93k mi. no drama in the bottom end.
his '10 Limited punched to 107 = 75k mi. no drama in the bottom end
his '12 Skunk = crank fail at 16k mi.
I know 33% is a high fail rate per bike, but 184k mi. with one bottom end drama is another way of looking at it.

I guess you read my previous posts regarding what I will do if the bottom end fails again in the '09 SERG???

[CAR GUY]

I did read your post. I respect your opinion. I did not have a ESC and had H-D in agreement to replace the crank with their cast pressed crank again. I decided the best way to go was to fix the problem( cost was less than the new screamin eagle crank). I didn't want to know that the crank was a weak link and may possibly be tearing down the motor again. I was also concerned about safety. When the first one failed the motor locked up. I was only at approximately 10 mph but still skidded to a stop. That all said, I love the bike. Red Shift 575's, new style cam plate + oil pump, vance & hines pro pipe chrome, race tuner, k&n cleaner, 102 hp & 108 tq.

[06cuse]

My '05 SEEG is coming up on 50k mi. with 0 drama.

A good friend of mine that averages runs a lot of miles is on his third bike since '06;
his '06 SE Ultra 103 = 93k mi. no drama in the bottom end.
his '10 Limited punched to 107 = 75k mi. no drama in the bottom end
his '12 Skunk = crank fail at 16k mi.
I know 33% is a high fail rate per bike, but 184k mi. with one bottom end drama is another way of looking at it.

Alright ~ I had to chime in I am this guy.  If you would like to verify the facts that I am about to post please come ride with us.  We meet everyday in St Johns County Florida at 10:30 am on CR13 just west of World Golf Village exit 324 off of I-95.  I ride with some guys that ride ALOT ~  here are the stats with no crank failure till I had mine on the skunk

My Bikes 30 HD's no crank failures.
Most Recent
06 cuse 93k traded in 2009
10 FLHTK 75k sold when I bought the Skunk
12 Skunk puchased 9/27 495 miles when I bought it 16k at failure May 11th Austin Texas.

Guys I ride with (yes these are the real miles and initials)
RW
03 Anniversary Electra Glide 208,000 miles ~ top end and cam chest rebuilt at 180,000 miles
03 Anniversary Dyna Wide Glide 44,000 miles stock and never been into
01 Heritage 60000 miles stock and never been into
10 CVO Street Glide 126,000 miles (rebuilt cam chest, honed top end, new pistons/rings, mild porting on heads) went into due to a lifer noise at 118k (he does his own work on all his bikes)

not sure of other issues eg compensators etc on these four.

SB
08 Ultra Classic 143,000 miles never split cases 140k compensator multiple transmission main drive shaft seal issues. (sits in my garage until I get mine back ~ I'm riding it daily ) and a new trany at some point (case and gears)
11 CVO Road Glide Ultra 108,000 miles No crank failure yet.  Compensator replaced two weeks ago.

My Current Bike.

12 CVO Skunk 16k miles, baker DD7, Stage III'd by dealer before I purchased (his demo).  Also Tour Pak, BDL Compensator, Baker Manual Chain Adjuster.  I am going to use a silvermoon crank H Beam ROds, timken bearing, Feuling Camplate, oil pump, SE ADJ Pushrods, C&P Pistons & Rings, bore stock jugs to 113, Woods TW8-6, Heads modified by Rosas cycle in Huntington NY, HPI 60mm Throttle body & intake. Oasis cycles Brandon Mississippi is performing the build.

10 FLHTK: 5 compensators in 75k (yes the se compensator), had a rear head exhaust valve guide come out at 30k and then upgraded the heads to FM type b.

06 CUSE: 93k clutch basket (oops speed shifting), multiple cruise servo's, 40k & 80k rear head exhaust valve guide came out.

So the short of it 9 HD's (twin cams), 600k documented miles, first crank failure on my 12 (newest & lowest mileage) at 16k.  If you toss in FHW's 9 SERG with 10k you are still looking at 600k miles and a 20% failure rate ~

FlaHeatWave is a great friend of mine, his 01 FXDWG2 was purchased new by me , we ride alot together and plan on doing many more miles.  I cannot say I was surprised when he told me his crank was questionable at 10k, and I advised the same as many of you.  The difference is he has a great relationship with his dealer (I live 400 miles east of him) and has 3 cvo's in the garage to choose from.

I am sure my NEW bottom end, and hope my NEW top end are solid for 100k or so.  IMHO the cranks are a crapshoot at best.  We choose to ride CVO's and I'm sure with a little more expense on the MoCo's part they could make the engines much more dependable.  But they know the costs, have the stats and understand the risk, return, and failure rates of their products.  We all are proud to ride CVO's and choose not to ride a K1600GTL or Goldwing so we assume (unfortunately) a certain risk associated with a sometimes frustrating product.  I plan on riding the wheels off the Skunk and planned on doing the crank, engine down the road ~ just figured I could roll it more than sixteen k.  I ride em hard, fast & frequently ~ yes I was clocked at 106mph on the 06 cuse eastbound on I-10.  FHP was shocked to see a Dresser rollin there, in my defense I was slowin down when he clocked me....

Ride Safe ~ SemperFi

[Harvey13118]

you can lead a hourse to water but you cant make him drink

You stick his head in the bucket and suck on his other end he'll swallow something! (Just sayin)

[FlaHeatWave]

You stick his head in the bucket and suck on his other end he'll swallow something! (Just sayin)

How do you know for sure??? Sounds like you have first hand experience???
 Got any video???

[CVOThunder]

Well that's a big drag. I was just gonna ask about running the T-Max with redshift 575 cams and what other mods I'd want to make it more reliable. I'll probably make a thread anyway or search for Fullsac pipes with 18mm bung but I was thinking about running the T-max with the D Xpipe. I'm set to go with the Fullsac pipe either way but this makes me rethink about doing any internal mods at all and just run her out the way she is. If she lasts through the ESP warranty then fine, if not then I'll consider options at that time. Sure, having the SEPRT and aftermarket pipes could give the ESP folks reason enough to cancel the warranty but I don't feel comfortable now in making a cam change and giving them another reason to cancel out if I'm on the road. The local H-D shop installing the cam might cover any damages if it goes bag but it's the off chance that I'll be away from home when it does have problems. Haven't dealt with my local shop enough to warrant having the bike shipped to them for repairs and with my current schedule there's a good chance she'd get left where she dies and I continue either with a rental car or fly home. I'd evaluate repairs or sale enroute to home.

Kinda like having a pretty girl but you never know if her heart is gonna is gonna seize up while you're shaggin' her. Weird metaphor I guess but kinda the same thing. You enjoy lovin' her and spending time wih her but whadda you do if she dies?

[FlaHeatWave]

I feel that I have more of a chance of ESP accepting a claim if I stay with Harley (SE) stuff in the motor, while traveling.

'Looked at all the tuners, cams, etc... and decided to stay with the SE stuff as stated above. Also the SE stuff suits my performance needs (the '01 FXDWG2 is Really Quick (traps towards 120) with all SE internals) Besides I don't ride dyno charts and don't want to go that fast anymore. 'Just want the 110 to get out of it's own way.

The T-Max ECM is a good unit, but I don't think ESP would swallow that one. 'Have never heard of anybody (East of the Mississippi) getting a claim refused for pipes. Just because I haven't heard of it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I don't think ESP gives a rat's a$$ about pipes.

Harley is paying out on 06cuse's Skunk (SE Stage III when he bought it) and I am pretty sure he is still within factory warranty and not into his ESP yet.

I think you answered your own question about the girl you were shaggin'...
"There's a good chance she'd get left where she dies and I either continue with a rental car or fly home" (I'm with 'ya on that one )

[FXR2evo99]

.
.
.
Hey I checked my crank on THE ORIGINAL CVO BIKE and it only came in at .0001, dang I wonder if I have a problem on that bike.....

 

Since these 110" bikes have come out there has been literally books penned on this topic....how much are you guys paying for all of this nonsense anyway....close to 45K now.....

If any of you are interested you can get a nice patina CVO FXR for ehhhh what maybe $7,500 now....lol....that's about as much as it will take you to fix that blown up engine...

ok.....ok.....ok......I am back to the FXR SECTION....before I get plastered....

 

Warmest Regards,

"Classic"

[skreminegul07]

I feel that I have more of a chance of ESP accepting a claim if I stay with Harley (SE) stuff in the motor, while traveling.

'Looked at all the tuners, cams, etc... and decided to stay with the SE stuff as stated above. Also the SE stuff suits my performance needs (the '01 FXDWG2 is Really Quick (traps towards 120) with all SE internals) Besides I don't ride dyno charts and don't want to go that fast anymore. 'Just want the 110 to get out of it's own way.

The T-Max ECM is a good unit, but I don't think ESP would swallow that one. 'Have never heard of anybody (East of the Mississippi) getting a claim refused for pipes. Just because I haven't heard of it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but I don't think ESP gives a rat's a$$ about pipes.

Harley is paying out on 06cuse's Skunk (SE Stage III when he bought it) and I am pretty sure he is still within factory warranty and not into his ESP yet.

I think you answered your own question about the girl you were shaggin'...
"There's a good chance she'd get left where she dies and I either continue with a rental car or fly home" (I'm with 'ya on that one )

Actually, HD refused my lemon law claim based on changing the exhaust and causing the 110" issues on everyone's motorcycle.  Including the bad crank. 

[05Train]

Actually, HD refused my lemon law claim based on changing the exhaust and causing the 110" issues on everyone's motorcycle.  Including the bad crank. 

Wow....That's screwed up.

[CowboyBagger]

Actually, HD refused my lemon law claim based on changing the exhaust and causing the 110" issues on everyone's motorcycle.  Including the bad crank. 

I would say that you had the wrong dealer.  I don't know of any warranty work that was refused coverage due to a pipe change in this area.

Cowboy