Topic: Oil Consumption (Read 10690 times)

tjp · « **on:** April 13, 2012, 06:11:12 PM »

How often do you have to add a quart of oil? I am about every ~2,500 miles it seems.

Angry Pirate · « **Reply #1 on:** April 13, 2012, 11:27:15 PM »

I'm just above 20,000 mi and I had to add less than half a quart for the first time. However it was right before my 20,000 mile service so technically it was time for a change anyway. How many miles are you at? I have not really heard that burning a half quart of synthetic oil every 2500 miles was standard on a Twin Cam. There is also a posibility that you have a leaking seal between the crankcase and gearbox. HD does the leak test on the 5,000/10,000/15,000/20,000 mile service (I think). If that is the case you need to get it addressed quick. Other things to look at, are you running Syn3 or better like Amsoil? Are you running the bike lean with free flowing intake and exhaust and no programer/dyno tune? That will cause more than just oil consumption.

Hope I helped and didn't just make you think your bike is busted. I noticed that 12 people looked at your post before me but didn't answer. So either they don't have that many miles on their rides, don't check their own oil or don't lose oil between changes.

grc · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2012, 08:47:45 AM »

Harley and your dealer will probably tell you a quart every 1000 miles is "normal". It really isn't, but that's how manufacturer's get out of paying a lot of warranty claims.

If you think your consumption is excessive I'd suggest you talk to your dealer and have them perform a controlled consumption test. Basically the test starts with an oil and filter change, then the dealer seals the dipstick and drain plug to prevent tampering. You ride the bike and stop by the dealership at predetermined mileage intervals to let them check the oil level and add any required oil, and they document each check and any oil added. At the completion of the test the actual useage is compared to the chart Harley provides to the dealer to determine if the consumption is "normal" or not.

Jerry

shortdog · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2012, 09:10:50 AM »

What Jerry said!

dlaws01 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 15, 2012, 12:18:32 AM »

Quote from: grc on April 14, 2012, 08:47:45 AM

Harley and your dealer will probably tell you a quart every 1000 miles is "normal". It really isn't, but that's how manufacturer's get out of paying a lot of warranty claims.

If you think your consumption is excessive I'd suggest you talk to your dealer and have them perform a controlled consumption test. Basically the test starts with an oil and filter change, then the dealer seals the dipstick and drain plug to prevent tampering. You ride the bike and stop by the dealership at predetermined mileage intervals to let them check the oil level and add any required oil, and they document each check and any oil added. At the completion of the test the actual useage is compared to the chart Harley provides to the dealer to determine if the consumption is "normal" or not.

Jerry

Now that would just confuse the heck out of the genius's over at my dealership!

Screamin Eagle Carl · « **Reply #5 on:** April 15, 2012, 07:56:47 AM »

Just changed the oil in my 2007 grabber orange Mustang GT convertible. I used Mobile One 5 W 20 synthetic and Xguard fram filter. I also waxed it inside and out (wherever I see paint including door frames and under the hood) and did full detailing. Springer is next...

AMSOIL all the way. Using a K&N Oil Filter 2008 HARLEY FXSTSSE2 SCREAMIN EAGLE SOFTAIL SPRINGER 1800 KN-171C. It is chrome of course. Picked it up from ebay for 17.95, free shipping.

Grease the springer front end, check all other fluids. Inspect parts and components.

Details on filter:

K&N powersports oil filters are TUV product endorsed and TUV factory production monitored. Our filters contain a modern synthetic filter media, designed for ultimate flow with less pressure drop, yet engineered for outstanding filtration. K&N powersports spin-on oil filters feature a heavy-duty metal can. Most of these have a 17mm nut affixed onto the end that allows for easy installation and removal. The 17mm nut is crossed-drilled so racers can safety wire the filter to their bike.

Part KN-171C Product Specifications
Product Style: Oil Filters
Height: 4.055 in (103 mm)
Outside Diameter: 2.98 in (76 mm)
Thread Inside Diameter: 3/4" UNF
PSI Relief Valve: Yes
Anti Drain Back Valve: Yes
Style: Canister
Removal Nut: Yes
Gasket Material: Nitrile Rubber
Filter Material: High Flow Premium Media
Bypass Valve: Yes
Finish: ChromeWeight: 0.8 lb (0.36 kg)
Product Box Length: 3.25 in (83 mm)
Manufacturer:K&N
Manufacturer Part Number: KN-171C-105
Fits: 2008 HARLEY DAVIDSON FXSTSSE2 SCREAMIN EAGLE SOFTAIL SPRINGER 1800

tjp · « **Reply #6 on:** April 15, 2012, 07:09:25 PM »

Thanks for all the great advice. I do not think I have any oil leaks as there is no visible oil any where after a ride or sitting for a week. I have about 9,000 miles and am due for a service and an oil change soon and I am just at the "add" level. I think I will add some oil as heading out to the Laughlin River Run, so will put on ~1,000 miles and check the dipstick. If the oil use is noticeable I will talk to my dealer about doing the suggested consumption test. I do think adding a quart every ~2,500 miles is excessive, but will have a good chance to do an informal test in a few weeks. I will report back on the results.

I only use Syn 3 (harley screamn eagle), but I do have some rush slipons and a performance commander so perhaps that increases the oil consumption a bit....

Screamin Eagle Carl · « **Reply #7 on:** April 15, 2012, 10:37:39 PM »

I think a lot of us agree that AMSOIL is a better product than HD oil. It shouldn't void the factory warrenty but you would need to do it yourself:

http://www.oilsandlube.com/HarleyOwners.htm

Angry Pirate · « **Reply #8 on:** April 15, 2012, 11:30:19 PM »

TJP,
If you have a power commander then you should not be running lean and therefor not running hot, infact should be running cooler than stock.

Screamin Eagle Carl. The stealership warned me that using other than Syn3 or HD filters will void engine warranty claims. It is their get out of jail free card. My "free" services from my extended service plan just ran out and I will be doing my own servicing from now on. Both the sales/warranty and service dept of my local HD told me just to retain the receipts from the HD filter and Syn3. When my extended service/warranty plan is expired (7 years) I may look at changing to a different brand however.......I assume that almost everyone knows that you should not blend different oils, that being said you can buy a quart of Syn3 at about 20 different location in every state. Very important if you ride long distance and don't feel like carrying a quart of oil in your already limited storage.

Just food for thought.

AP

grc · « **Reply #9 on:** April 16, 2012, 08:28:50 AM »

Quote from: Angry Pirate on April 15, 2012, 11:30:19 PM

TJP,
If you have a power commander then you should not be running lean and therefor not running hot, infact should be running cooler than stock.

Screamin Eagle Carl. The stealership warned me that using other than Syn3 or HD filters will void engine warranty claims. It is their get out of jail free card. My "free" services from my extended service plan just ran out and I will be doing my own servicing from now on. Both the sales/warranty and service dept of my local HD told me just to retain the receipts from the HD filter and Syn3. When my extended service/warranty plan is expired (7 years) I may look at changing to a different brand however.......I assume that almost everyone knows that you should not blend different oils, that being said you can buy a quart of Syn3 at about 20 different location in every state. Very important if you ride long distance and don't feel like carrying a quart of oil in your already limited storage.

Just food for thought.

AP

I hope you realize they are FOS. If you're not aware of your rights, look up and read the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975. That little piece of federal legislation makes what those folks told you illegal. If you purchased one of those prepaid service interval plans, then I suppose you have to go by whatever is in that contract. But it has nothing to do with warranty.

As for availability, I can find one heck of a lot more locations selling Mobil 1 than I can find Harley dealerships. And I don't get raped when I buy Mobil 1 from AutoZone or Wally World or one of the many other auto parts places; can't say the same about most Harley dealerships.

I would have hoped that forty years after the M-M act was passed that most consumers and all vehicle dealers would understand the law. It's a sad commentary on the honesty of folks in the business that they still try that same old BS in this day and age.

Jerry

shortdog · « **Reply #10 on:** April 16, 2012, 09:47:03 AM »

tjp,
If you feel like going through a lot of anguish and accomplishing nothing then proceed with your quest.
I would be surprised if the dealer would even perform the "consumption protocol" based on a quart in 2500 miles.

I will share a brief synopsis of my experience:
When my 08 was brand new it was "using" a quart of oil every 1,000 miles or so. I complained at every service and had it written on the work orders. I had the recall work done at about 7,500 miles and while the heads were off they change valve guide seals that were leaking. At about 17,000 miles they put valve guide seals in again when it got to about 800 miles per/quart. I complained to Mother Harley and got a nice gift certificate. At around 25,000 miles I was again at 700/800 miles per quart. Did the first "protocol consumption test" and got authorization to replace rings, valve guide seals AND valve guides. They ruined my heads at this point and had to replace them. Was back several times for minor leak, rocker box radius (interference) then went on vacation to Shenandoah Valley and Blue Ridge Parkway. The motor was sucking down a quart every 500 miles and I had to clean my plugs every night and finally bought a set in Tifton, Ga.
When I got home I was able to get the Factory/Dealer Rep involved.
First put new valve guide seals in,put on new factory clearanced rocker boxes and started the "consumption protocol" again. I was also told to ride it like I stole it and if I could bring it in with pieces hanging out the bottom it would be "easier" to justify a new motor. With all that at 800 miles the oil was not showing on the stick at 800 miles hot.
Finally at 29,000 miles Mother Harley sprang for a new motor! The time frame from the first "protocol" to the new motor was March to August with lots of hurt feelings and hateful arguments all around.
I know this is a long reply but until your consumption exceeds a quart in 1,000 miles the service personnel are trained to spout the Factory mantra: "One quart in 1,000 mies is acceptable."
I have 35,000 miles on the second motor and it uses about a quart in 2,500 to 3,000 miles around town and local riding. I did run to San Diego last year and needed a quart when I got back. It was a service interval trip anyway.
Comparatively speaking I am reasonably happy with my present situation.

Screamin Eagle Carl · « **Reply #11 on:** April 16, 2012, 05:54:10 PM »

Let's see if I take a shot of AMSOIL and a shot of SYN3, both dirty, would I be able to taste the difference? How would HD know anyways? I will keep receipts in a file to demonstrate maintenance.

Any maintenance that I do for my car (GT) or my bike, I do myself. When I see a recall notice or a technical bulletin, I bring it in to the dealer.

Shortdog, thanks for soap boxing, it is very valuable.

My 08 springer has zero warranty left. I try and get the best filter and the best oil to use. My Grandpa used to say "I am not a rich enough man to buy something cheap". Words to live by.

K&N make good racing components for my GT although I installed a Roush CAI, not a K&N (price was the difference). For oil, I read on this forum and on other HD forums that the better choice for oil is AMSOIL. I am going with that. AM I wrong in my case?

HD will eventually have to service my ride. So far, they have been very accommodating when I had questions. Being a do it yourself kind of guy That I am (I am not a rich enough man to pay full service costs), I am hoping that by following the right instructions and changing oil every 2500 miles is enough to protect my investment, and following more sincere maintenance I will bring it in to the dealer. Since I have no warranty, the difference is quality and that's what itis all about.

Angry Pirate · « **Reply #12 on:** April 16, 2012, 11:50:53 PM »

So many of you jumped on the bandwagon that I have to give simple short replies. Figure out on your own who I am talking to.

- I am not ragging on AMSOIL just simply stating that it is not readily available at a controlled price anywhere you go.

- By the way the AMSOIL propaganda you posted compairs AMSOIL to old conventional Screamin Eagle oil.

- I never mentioned Mobil 1 or any other brand.

- Seems that it was worth it to you to go through all that anguish.....you got a new motor.

- I have the 7 year extended service plan, thrown in with the price of my bike. And yes non Syn3 VOIDS it.

- If you change it out every 2500 miles; is the extra money really worth anything? I run AMSOIL in my Duramax diesel but not just to be cool. It is because it lasts longer without breaking down.

Finally his whole question was about oil consumption in his motor not what type of oil he should use.

grc · « **Reply #13 on:** April 17, 2012, 11:45:48 AM »

If the Extended Service Plan you're talking about is the one that covers repairs, and it's not just a scheduled service package that some dealers sell, then I'd love for you to post a copy of the part of the contract that specifically states you must use Harley SYN3 oil. It's never been in a Harley sponsored ESP that I've ever seen. And there are a ton of folks on this site with the ESP that run Redline, Mobil-1, Amsoil, or other brands that have had repairs performed under the ESP without an issue.

Jerry

miker · « **Reply #14 on:** April 17, 2012, 01:03:55 PM »

http://law.yourdictionary.com/magnuson-moss-warranty-act

Thats all.....

Screamin Eagle Carl · « **Reply #15 on:** April 17, 2012, 05:55:29 PM »

Huh..

so what I'm reading is change oil every 2500 mi. Check. Use SYN3 so no problems with HD. AMSOIL is good for extended use and this never comes into play. Butt...the graphs..

Glad I hadn't bought my oil yet!

Consensus then?

Angry Pirate: I believe it was me who skewered the topic. Like a pirate attacking a weaker sailor in terms of skewered.. Arrrggghhhh.. A Pirate over 40 is I.

shortdog · « **Reply #16 on:** April 17, 2012, 06:34:13 PM »

Angry Pirate,
The difference between my situation and the original poster's was about 1500 miles per quart.
I was simply pointing out that his 1 quart per 2500 miles will not get him anyplace but frustrated!

Screamin Eagle Carl · « **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2012, 05:12:13 PM »

Bought my oil, SYN3 HD oil, got another chrome filter (3 quarts for my 110). Got the O ring kit and also got transmission oil, all from HD.

Kaching! 96 bucks. I will be changing the oil in a few days time and greasing the springer.

My car is a Mustang GT with a 4.6 Litrel, My synthetic oil change is about 55 bucks total (no tranny oil).

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #18 on:** April 23, 2012, 06:02:10 PM »

Angry Pirate...if you read the Amsoil document, it is comaparing HD Syn3, NOT the "Old" Screamin' Eagle oil. Nowhere in my ESP does it state that I must use HD products, or get my bike serviced by a HD dealership. The HD 2 year warranty does not specify that either. If you purchase a HD Service Plan, they put HD products in your bike. Syn 3 does not have a "magic ingrediant" making it superior to other synthetic oil. In the crankcase, you could use any 20W50 motor oil, including synthetics...synthetics are more resistant to high temperatures, so IMO, they are a better choice. In the primary, you need to use a motor oil designed for use with a wet clutch...or you can use Automatic Transmission Fluid, as some people do. My HD dealer actually recommendsusing Redline Shockproof in the transmission, as it is their experience that it performs better than running regular motor oil, including Syn 3.

The bottom line is that NO vehicle manufacturer can specify which products to use when servicing your vehicle, as long as it meets the specifications required. If they do specify, they are legally required to provide the product free of charge.

It really isn't necessary to change oil every 2500 miles either. That is a holdover from back when motor oil was not what it is today. It doesn't HURT anything to do so, of course, but it is just wasting product. The only time it might be necessary to change more frequently than 5K is if you ride on dirt roads, stop and go traffic the majority of the time, or travel very short distances the majority of the time (the motor oil never gets up to operating temps).

shortdog · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2012, 08:48:19 AM »

Well said Midnight Rider!

Angry Pirate · « **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2012, 11:45:43 PM »

I really think that you are getting too hung up on what you are being told by your parts suplier or Amsoil dealer. If you you use Syn3 and change your oil at the MoCo recomended intervals you will spend less money and engine will last just as long. I have the 7 year HD extended service plan. I don't have access to the paperwork as I am floating on a U.S. warship in the Middle East but I can tell you that I was told to use HD oil and filter and SAVE RECIEPTS when doing my own servicing. I am also not interested in arguing with a service department over warrenty claims. I know several guys that have been running HD oil and filters for long periods and high milage and have had no problems.

I know Amsoil is a superior product. I also know that Redline is the best tranny fluid.....I used to race a Honda 954RR. I have also been told not to use Amsoil in the tranny, by the way. Specificly for the wet clutch.

Use what you want and feel good about paying more for it. My bike is at 20,000 miles and does not burn oil. See you at 50,000 miles. I bought my springer February 2009. Either February 2016 or after I change cams and do headwork I will run non HD fluids. Because at that point warrenty is off the table. However, if you think about it. Buy 7 year extended warrenty; run "no magical propperties" HD oil for 4 years; save recipts; motor breaks down; get a new one or free rebuild. Think about it.

Again as I have said before. I use Amsoil in my Duramax Diesel. Because it lasts longer between oil changes. I am not going to extend the time between services on my springer. I am also not in a habit of throwing money into the trash can.

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2012, 11:34:08 AM »

Using HD Syn 3 certainly does not save any money over use of other brands...in fact, it usually costs more. There really is no need in reading your ESP contract...it does NOT say to use only HD products. It does require you to show proof if you perform the services yourself, but that is a no-brainer. Nobody is saying that Syn 3 is a horrible product, only that there are products equal to, or better than it. HD is not going to test other products against theirs for a number of reasons.

BTW...I notice in your signature line that you have aftermarket exhaust and a PCV with Autotune. If HD or your ESP decides to attempt to deny warranty coverage for a major engine failure, they are MUCH more likely to do so because of those two items than over what brand of oil you use. I'd be a lot more concerned about the use of the PCV with regards to any warranty. That is especially true if your dealer did not install both products. Even if they did, another dealer may notify the MOCO and the ESP provider and warranty coverage be denied. The ESP is administered by a third party...NOT HD. It's an insurance policy, not a factory warranty. HD reps do not make the final decision regarding what is covered and what is not. The same is true with any ESP you purchase with a car and most any other item.

Angry Pirate · « **Reply #22 on:** April 28, 2012, 02:08:28 AM »

Quote from: Midnight Rider on April 25, 2012, 11:34:08 AM

Using HD Syn 3 certainly does not save any money over use of other brands...in fact, it usually costs more. There really is no need in reading your ESP contract...it does NOT say to use only HD products. It does require you to show proof if you perform the services yourself, but that is a no-brainer. Nobody is saying that Syn 3 is a horrible product, only that there are products equal to, or better than it. HD is not going to test other products against theirs for a number of reasons.

BTW...I notice in your signature line that you have aftermarket exhaust and a PCV with Autotune. If HD or your ESP decides to attempt to deny warranty coverage for a major engine failure, they are MUCH more likely to do so because of those two items than over what brand of oil you use. I'd be a lot more concerned about the use of the PCV with regards to any warranty. That is especially true if your dealer did not install both products. Even if they did, another dealer may notify the MOCO and the ESP provider and warranty coverage be denied. The ESP is administered by a third party...NOT HD. It's an insurance policy, not a factory warranty. HD reps do not make the final decision regarding what is covered and what is not. The same is true with any ESP you purchase with a car and most any other item.

I do my own wrenching, and that is why the stock exhaust is not in the trash. PCV simply unplugs. Could the dealership remember that I had other exhaust on there? Sure. I am cautious, not afraid. There is a difference.

tjp · « **Reply #23 on:** May 04, 2012, 06:55:12 PM »

I will not totally call out

; as some good info.

Anyhow I finally found time to clean up the bike, unpack, etc. from Laughlin and tested my oil level. Before the trip I added oil so that it was about 1/4" above the add line doing a cold check. After 900 miles of ridding it is about 1/8" above the add line doing a cold check.

I may have not done a proper check last go around...or maybe my bike is a late breaker inner!

I'll continue to monitor my oil and mileage and report back.

Author Topic: Oil Consumption (Read 10690 times)