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Author Topic: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt  (Read 5986 times)

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groupw

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rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« on: April 18, 2019, 12:08:45 AM »

just thinking about the rumored 120 hp Indian motor that's speculated to be coming in a new fixed fairing model.

I'm not familiar w/the hp output of the M8117 but thinking that 120 would still be a sizable jump up.

...... and wondering how that would impact the CVO market.
i'm quite happy w/the SERGU i have, so it won't impact me
..... but others might be tempted by 120hp outta the box

besides, i think the twin cam looks way better than that water jacket.




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scottt

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2019, 07:07:07 AM »

Will have a significant impact. It's not just a new 120hp motor, it's the whole package. A better frame and suspension with mono rear shock for starters.

Motorcycles are a very personal thing. Some put style above everything else and Harley leads for those buyers in my opinion. Harley leads with dealer accessibility, customization options as well. The largest motorcycle social group, HOG.

Others place higher degrees of value on performance, handling, features, safety, comfort, quality and value.

While i don't personally own or desire a Indian motorcycle, I'm happy to see a new model that's more than fancy paint and chrome. This new Indian should appeal to buyers that want an American built bike with traditional V-twin style along with performance, handling and comfort.

Harley will have no choice but to compete and that's a very good thing. Current CVO electra glides will be impacted the most when Harley introduces a new bike that takes this new Indian on. My bet is that this happens sooner than later.



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ultrarider123

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2019, 07:08:43 AM »

It is an interesting bike and motor coming from Indian.  I look forward to seeing, hearing and maybe riding it at some point but purchasing?  Not sure.  However, I don't ever say never anymore...but I don't see a new bike in my near or far future from any manufacturer.
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muddypaws

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2019, 07:28:43 AM »

For sure would consider...
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2019, 07:40:05 AM »

Well I already made the jump over to Indian. I was tempted to wait for the water cooled bike but I did not want to wait another 2 years. I say 2 years because I try not to buy engines in the same year they are released. I put a deposit on the red bike in this picture yesterday. I am having them add their PowerBand Audio system and their 116 CI Big Bore Kit along with every chrome bit they have available for it. They did not have a Chieftain Elite Model this year so I am adding all of the stuff that an Elite would have plus the Big Bore Kit and a few other things. Came out to 38,400 including labor and before trade and taxes. A guy from Texas is going to meet me at the Indian Dealership to buy my 2013 CVO Road King on a courtesy trade. If that falls through I will just trade the Road King.

I sure have enjoyed the interaction with the folks here over the last 6 years or so!!!
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ultrarider123

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2019, 08:46:09 AM »

Roy, that is a beautiful color.  There's one at the K'ville Indian store that color.  Looks great in the sunshine, too.  That 116 kit really puts life in an already potent power plant...good deal for you, sir.

You do know that...

 :worthless:
« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 08:57:13 AM by Haird »
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2019, 08:53:59 AM »

Roy, That is a very nice looking bike !! Good Luck With the New Ride.
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DND

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2019, 05:27:20 PM »

To me it would have no effect. I would not buy another brand, ever. I like my HD products.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2019, 09:12:36 PM »

To me it would have no effect. I would not buy another brand, ever. I like my HD products.


I understand your point but hopefully competition will effect all of us or at least those who purchase a new bike in the future. Competition is the only thing that pushes manufacturers to improve their products. If not for competition we would still be driving cars that rust out in eight years and need a new motors at 80,000 miles.
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mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2019, 09:50:42 PM »

If the bike pictured makes it to production, it has inverted forks, radial disc brakes, and 120 hp.  You know IM will offer stage 2 cams, hi flow A/C, maybe a big bore kit.  Throw in better exhaust, a dyno tune, what would be talking then...140 hp? 
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2019, 10:48:00 PM »

Will be interesting to see what the actual numbers of this Indian are.  Also what does HD have to counter this, if anything?
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mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2019, 11:23:36 PM »

Just saw this pop up on the IM site:
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2019, 12:50:16 AM »

Will be interesting to see what the actual numbers of this Indian are.  Also what does HD have to counter this, if anything?
Harley has no choice but to compete. They must have a big touring platform upgrade ready to go.

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iski

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2019, 08:12:48 AM »

Harley has no choice but to compete. They must have a big touring platform upgrade ready to go.

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HD's focus has been on electric & the smaller engine bikes, several new entries.  Likely they have a bigger touring engine in the works, am wondering if they do then when will it be introduced?  The 117 is not that old.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2019, 08:23:19 AM »

Just saw this pop up on the IM site:

Those bars have to go. No way could I ride something like that. My shoulder blades would be on fire in 15 miles.
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scottt

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2019, 08:59:55 AM »

HD's focus has been on electric & the smaller engine bikes, several new entries.  Likely they have a bigger touring engine in the works, am wondering if they do then when will it be introduced?  The 117 is not that old.
Harlys touring line will need a significant upgrade to compete. The frame and suspension to start. A watercooled V4 would be a great OPTION for top of the line touring models. Features like clutchless shifting, active suspension would be great.

Hope they do it!

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ultrarider123

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2019, 09:22:24 AM »

Those bars have to go. No way could I ride something like that. My shoulder blades would be on fire in 15 miles.

They do seem a bit low but look at the feller a'riding it.  He's got some height to him so maybe for someone 6 ft or lower, they would be better?  I'm hoping that goiter sticking out right behind his left foot is part of the disguise process 'cause it ain't none too purdy.

It will be an interesting bike and unless I'm missing some specs, at 120 hp factory, that would be the strongest V twin, stock... :nixweiss:
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2019, 09:05:42 AM »

 :2vrolijk_09: :2vrolijk_09:


Well I already made the jump over to Indian. I was tempted to wait for the water cooled bike but I did not want to wait another 2 years. I say 2 years because I try not to buy engines in the same year they are released. I put a deposit on the red bike in this picture yesterday. I am having them add their PowerBand Audio system and their 116 CI Big Bore Kit along with every chrome bit they have available for it. They did not have a Chieftain Elite Model this year so I am adding all of the stuff that an Elite would have plus the Big Bore Kit and a few other things. Came out to 38,400 including labor and before trade and taxes. A guy from Texas is going to meet me at the Indian Dealership to buy my 2013 CVO Road King on a courtesy trade. If that falls through I will just trade the Road King.

I sure have enjoyed the interaction with the folks here over the last 6 years or so!!!
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2019, 05:57:35 PM »

the road chief     :indian_chief:
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2019, 08:07:04 PM »

Heart & Soul

The documentary a few years back on Harley & The Davidson’s really opened my eyes.

These guys were motorcyclist through and through. They had a love and passion like no others.

Indian on the other hand was a business all about the almighty buck $$$. They failed in the long run and while the MoCo has seen some difficult times they have survived and set the bar.

I have a couple of friends in Rolling Thunder with Indians and they like them, but have their problems and issues also. One had to be trailered back home last year from DC.

I will reserve my person opinion on the looks of Indian products. To each their own. Style, brand and color are a personal choice.

I think Indian realizes that they are so far behind that they must really step the game up. This is a good thing for all of us. Competition is always good. We the consumer will benefit.

As for me I bleed HD all day. Even with many trips to Daytona for bike week I have yet had the desire to even test ride an Indian.

Ride safe
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mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2019, 11:22:22 PM »

Heart & Soul

The documentary a few years back on Harley & The Davidson’s really opened my eyes.

These guys were motorcyclist through and through. They had a love and passion like no others.

Indian on the other hand was a business all about the almighty buck $$$. They failed in the long run and while the MoCo has seen some difficult times they have survived and set the bar.

I have a couple of friends in Rolling Thunder with Indians and they like them, but have their problems and issues also. One had to be trailered back home last year from DC.

I will reserve my person opinion on the looks of Indian products. To each their own. Style, brand and color are a personal choice.

I think Indian realizes that they are so far behind that they must really step the game up. This is a good thing for all of us. Competition is always good. We the consumer will benefit.

As for me I bleed HD all day. Even with many trips to Daytona for bike week I have yet had the desire to even test ride an Indian.

Ride safe
That show, Harley and the Davisdons, was written from an HD perspective and the intent of the writer was to make HD the moral choice (i.e., HD = good, Indian = bad). In other words, it was "Hollywooded" to give a desired outcome.  You see this in about every film released...there is a good guy and a villain.  Don't put too much into it.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2019, 08:11:48 AM »

The Harley Touring frame is long in the tooth, its 10 years old.  Harley is really going to need to update the frame, the suspension and the engine if it wants to stay competitive. 

Its' getting harder and harder to justify a Harley.  Cost is going up and up.  And for the added cost for the most part your getting less.

Right now, the biggest thing Harley has going for it is the fact they have a Huge dealer network, no other brand is even close.  That is important if you do lots of travel by motorcycle.  Next is Harleys loyal customer base. 

Those two are only going to continue for so long if Harley does not come up with a bike to compete, with a better frame, better suspension and better power.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2019, 08:42:52 AM »

I still don't understand the horsepower wars on these heavy dressers.  How much is enough?  My "little" tc88 with stage 2 upgrades is more than enough power to get where I'm going.  I want reliability, not big power.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2019, 09:31:32 AM »

That show, Harley and the Davisdons, was written from an HD perspective and the intent of the writer was to make HD the moral choice (i.e., HD = good, Indian = bad). In other words, it was "Hollywooded" to give a desired outcome.  You see this in about every film released...there is a good guy and a villain.  Don't put too much into it.

Excellent point regarding "Hollywooded".  And that PC take on topics/subjects/issues changes over time and often reflects the wished for instead of the actual, as it did with that very 'Harley friendly' movie.  Learned this early on when "Bonnie & Clyde" came out.  Killer scum thugs falsely glorified by a movie as altruistic misunderstood heroes. In reality they were murdering scum that robbed mostly individuals at small stores & in my home town shot a man to death for no reason. Movies try to re-tell history and sometimes do it poorly.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2019, 09:48:16 AM »

The Harley Touring frame is long in the tooth, its 10 years old.  Harley is really going to need to update the frame, the suspension and the engine if it wants to stay competitive. 

Its' getting harder and harder to justify a Harley.  Cost is going up and up.  And for the added cost for the most part your getting less.

Right now, the biggest thing Harley has going for it is the fact they have a Huge dealer network, no other brand is even close.  That is important if you do lots of travel by motorcycle.  Next is Harleys loyal customer base. 

Those two are only going to continue for so long if Harley does not come up with a bike to compete, with a better frame, better suspension and better power.
Couldn't have said it better. Riding the coat tails of past success without progressing to the future.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2019, 11:39:35 AM »

That show, Harley and the Davisdons, was written from an HD perspective and the intent of the writer was to make HD the moral choice (i.e., HD = good, Indian = bad). In other words, it was "Hollywooded" to give a desired outcome.  You see this in about every film released...there is a good guy and a villain.  Don't put too much into it.

You are correct. I was going to actually mention that however I did not want to chase that rabbit and make the post too long. But there are actual facts that can be searched including copying HD designs, patenting them and seeing HD then for using the design. The two guys that put their names on the brand had a love for bikes and a passion like no others.

I feel that passion when I look at, start up and Ride my bike. I do not feel any passion at all when I look at an Indian. Just my opinion.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2019, 07:44:44 AM »

I still don't understand the horsepower wars on these heavy dressers.  How much is enough?  My "little" tc88 with stage 2 upgrades is more than enough power to get where I'm going.  I want reliability, not big power.

Well, I for one like having plenty of passing power, for out west and the 80 mph speed limit.  I like plenty of power for going up mountain grades and being able to pass.  Like you say, these baggers are heavy, 900 pounds.  So 150 HP like the BMW is where we should be.

Then again I have never believed there was such a thing as to much power. 
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2019, 09:18:33 AM »

Well, I for one like having plenty of passing power, for out west and the 80 mph speed limit.  I like plenty of power for going up mountain grades and being able to pass.  Like you say, these baggers are heavy, 900 pounds.  So 150 HP like the BMW is where we should be.

Then again I have never believed there was such a thing as to much power.

Yeah, what you said.  2-up in the Rockies my stock TC 88 struggled some.  M8 no issues in the mountains. More power - to a point (weight. rideability) - is better.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2019, 01:46:14 PM »

Well, I for one like having plenty of passing power, for out west and the 80 mph speed limit.  I like plenty of power for going up mountain grades and being able to pass.  Like you say, these baggers are heavy, 900 pounds.  So 150 HP like the BMW is where we should be.

Then again I have never believed there was such a thing as to much power.


Yeap.  Get a bagger with a trailer behind it in the mountains and an 88 and that bitch becomes hard work to ride.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2019, 04:37:05 PM »

I too would like the upgrades mentioned, engine frame maybe water. One can only guess what that crazy price tag would look like.
As far as the power is concerned. with the 124 and the procharger, 208 and 178 was perfect!

BigLew
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2019, 06:11:01 PM »

Well, I for one like having plenty of passing power, for out west and the 80 mph speed limit.  I like plenty of power for going up mountain grades and being able to pass.  Like you say, these baggers are heavy, 900 pounds.  So 150 HP like the BMW is where we should be.

Then again I have never believed there was such a thing as to much power.
It's 160hp not 150. Once you've experienced it, you can't turn back. Especially when the bike is designed around the performance. Harley needs to move in this direction.

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J.D.

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2019, 06:44:01 PM »

There's always going to be power kits for the random guy pulling a loaded trailer around the mountains, but for the 99+% of the rest of us...

I'm all for maximum reliable horsepower and a well engineered bike with all systems upgraded accordingly.  But there does come a point where more power isn't really needed.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 06:46:07 PM by 2002FXDWG3 »
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mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2019, 08:00:44 PM »

There's always going to be power kits for the random guy pulling a loaded trailer around the mountains, but for the 99+% of the rest of us...

I'm all for maximum reliable horsepower and a well engineered bike with all systems upgraded accordingly.  But there does come a point where more power isn't really needed.
I would encourage anyone on this site to demo a K1600B.  What a torque monster.  I don't know if I fit into the 99% or the 1%, but I love that bike. 
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scottt

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2019, 08:36:09 PM »

There's always going to be power kits for the random guy pulling a loaded trailer around the mountains, but for the 99+% of the rest of us...

I'm all for maximum reliable horsepower and a well engineered bike with all systems upgraded accordingly.  But there does come a point where more power isn't really needed.
There is something special knowing you have enough power to do pretty much anything you desire. Quickly pass , cruise down the freeway at 80 knowing your bike is not breaking a sweat.

Does not mean you ride like a crazy man. Especially if you can have that performance potential without suffering durability, fuel economy or even price.

That's what buyers deserve and i believe many want.

It is available today but not from Harley. I'm saying it should be but won't unless buyers demand it.

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2019, 08:53:10 PM »

Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with it as long as there aren't too many tradeoffs.  By that I mean lower reliability, a lot of added weight, etc.  The BMW (and Goldwing) both appear to be well engineered bikes.

Of course you need to be ok with a high-revving, water cooled I6.  I don't see anyone getting there with only 2 cylinders.

I simply don't find myself "needing" more than about 100hp.  Granted I'm not pulling a trailer through mountain passes.
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scottt

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2019, 09:42:09 PM »

Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with it as long as there aren't too many tradeoffs.  By that I mean lower reliability, a lot of added weight, etc.  The BMW (and Goldwing) both appear to be well engineered bikes.

Of course you need to be ok with a high-revving, water cooled I6.  I don't see anyone getting there with only 2 cylinders.

I simply don't find myself "needing" more than about 100hp.  Granted I'm not pulling a trailer through mountain passes.
The BMW 6cyl and I'm sure Honda Goldwing 6 do not require high revs.

The BMW K1600 6cyl reaches 70 percent of it's 129lb of torque at 1,750 RPM. It revs quickly and effortlessly.

Harley could reach strong Torque and HP numbers with a simple V-4 that's both water and oil cooled. Combined with a modern frame and suspension. Braking system, clutchless shifting option or automatic.

If Harley stepped up and built a all new electraglide like this it would sell very well. Priced similar to the current touring line.

The CVO is a great idea but priced to high, should be reduced around $5,000 along with production cuts. Needs to be special, an honor to own one as it once was. Not cutting on current bike.

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mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2019, 10:47:27 PM »

Scottt, I'm afraid if the MoCo incorporated your suggestions into a bike to compete with BMW, et al, the MSRP would be in the stratosphere.  We're seeing with the Livewire that HD priced it noticeably higher than the competition, with less power and mileage. 

I'd be happy with seeing the Revolution engine used in a sporty bike to compete with the soon to be released Indian FTR.  Also, re-engineer the Revolution for use in a touring bike...lower reving, better low end torque, etc.

 
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scottt

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2019, 12:09:38 AM »

Scottt, I'm afraid if the MoCo incorporated your suggestions into a bike to compete with BMW, et al, the MSRP would be in the stratosphere.  We're seeing with the Livewire that HD priced it noticeably higher than the competition, with less power and mileage. 

I'd be happy with seeing the Revolution engine used in a sporty bike to compete with the soon to be released Indian FTR.  Also, re-engineer the Revolution for use in a touring bike...lower reving, better low end torque, etc.
Sadly, I'm afraid your right. Had Harley done what you suggested I'd own one right now.

In my humble opinion, Harley is playing the loyalty card a bit longer than is safe to do so.

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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2019, 06:07:15 AM »

I would encourage anyone on this site to demo a K1600B.  What a torque monster.  I don't know if I fit into the 99% or the 1%, but I love that bike.
I have rode the K1600 GTL.  Loved the power and handling.  Did not like the seating position.  I have not been on the Bagger version.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2019, 12:28:02 PM »

Engines:   Indian currently makes a 120 HP Liquid Cooled V-Twin that is in the FTR.    The bad thing is that it's 120HP at 8,250 RPM and only 85 Lb Ft of Torque at 6,000 RPM.    If this new mystery motor is like that then it'll suck in a touring bike.   

Personally I like the fact that Harleys are still Air Cooled.    I like my cooling fins and pushrod tubes!   
Water Pumps, Radiators, Cooling Fans, Thermostats, hoses - Are all additional things to break and add to cost.

Suspensions: Monoshock rear on a performance bike I can see, but on a touring bike I think the current suspension is just fine?   My '19 rides better than any of my 4 previous Harley touring bikes.

As for the BMWs...    Pull up on a K1600 and I will pull up on my CVO and we will see which ones the ladies want to take a ride on!
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2019, 03:40:32 PM »

Engines:   Indian currently makes a 120 HP Liquid Cooled V-Twin that is in the FTR.    The bad thing is that it's 120HP at 8,250 RPM and only 85 Lb Ft of Torque at 6,000 RPM.    If this new mystery motor is like that then it'll suck in a touring bike.   

Personally I like the fact that Harleys are still Air Cooled.    I like my cooling fins and pushrod tubes!   
Water Pumps, Radiators, Cooling Fans, Thermostats, hoses - Are all additional things to break and add to cost.

Suspensions: Monoshock rear on a performance bike I can see, but on a touring bike I think the current suspension is just fine?   My '19 rides better than any of my 4 previous Harley touring bikes.

As for the BMWs...    Pull up on a K1600 and I will pull up on my CVO and we will see which ones the ladies want to take a ride on!
Many of us ride for different reasons. Apparently you rate having people looking at you and/or ladies asking for a ride above how the motorcycle performs, handles, brakes and rides. That's not a put down, just being honest. Nothing wrong with that. Apparently many Harley owners have the same view point, the reason there are so many low mile Harleys out there.

I'd go so far as to say i was like that when young. Now that I'm not, it's all about riding and the enjoyment delivered by a motorcycle that performs, handles and rides like a modern bike. Disagree regarding suspension. Harleys current design is outdated. It will be upgraded very soon.

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mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2019, 03:55:43 PM »

I'm sure IM isn't putting the FTR powerplant in their new fixed fairing touring bike.  Maybe the same base engine, but cam, tune, etc will be a low end torque getter.  I'm afraid air cooled engines are reaching their sunset - as EPA regs require such lean tunes, there's no way to cool off an air-cooled bike without removing the cat and changing the tune. 

If I recall, Steve from Fullsac bought a K1600B and someone hinted at performance upgrades...his response was basically "why?"  I think it's time HD (and IM for that matter) to start making their products appeal to the technology generation.  God isn't producing anymore air cooled baby boomers.   
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scottt

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2019, 06:23:52 PM »

I'm sure IM isn't putting the FTR powerplant in their new fixed fairing touring bike.  Maybe the same base engine, but cam, tune, etc will be a low end torque getter.  I'm afraid air cooled engines are reaching their sunset - as EPA regs require such lean tunes, there's no way to cool off an air-cooled bike without removing the cat and changing the tune. 

If I recall, Steve from Fullsac bought a K1600B and someone hinted at performance upgrades...his response was basically "why?"  I think it's time HD (and IM for that matter) to start making their products appeal to the technology generation.  God isn't producing anymore air cooled baby boomers.   
It's my understanding that air cooled motors can meet current EPA but it's getting tough. Bottom line is that if you want horsepower/Torque and a engine that reasonably cool for the rider along with high compression and durability. It takes water cooling, at min. The heads.

What was heard about the K1600B or Bagger is true. The straight 6cyl is amazing right off the showroom floor. Those that want more can do a stage one upload. Bren tuning does it. Gives ya a top speed around 175. Too much for me.

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2019, 07:28:01 PM »

Many of us ride for different reasons. Apparently you rate having people looking at you and/or ladies asking for a ride above how the motorcycle performs, handles, brakes and rides. That's not a put down, just being honest. Nothing wrong with that. Apparently many Harley owners have the same view point, the reason there are so many low mile Harleys out there.

I'd go so far as to say i was like that when young. Now that I'm not, it's all about riding and the enjoyment delivered by a motorcycle that performs, handles and rides like a modern bike. Disagree regarding suspension. Harleys current design is outdated. It will be upgraded very soon.

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My Bike runs, handles and brakes great!  125 lbs ft of torque from a 4 valve 2 cyl engine is nothing to scoff at.  You should test ride one before you say that I obviously don't appreciate performance!     From what I can see, the BMW is only rated at 129 Lbs Ft of torque with all of those extra cylinders flying about?   Torque is where it's at.   Ask the 1970 Buick Gran Sport 455, only 350 bhp but 510 lb ft of torque.  Fastest production muscle car in 1970 and one of the heaviest.

And Brother let me tell you,  if you didn't have a little of that same cantankerous mojo left in your bones, then you would be posting on a Honda Gold Wing forum and not a Custom Vehicle Operations Harley Davidson Site.

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fastfreddy

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2019, 08:11:43 PM »

My Bike runs, handles and brakes great!  125 lbs ft of torque from a 4 valve 2 cyl engine is nothing to scoff at.  You should test ride one before you say that I obviously don't appreciate performance!     From what I can see, the BMW is only rated at 129 Lbs Ft of torque with all of those extra cylinders flying about?   Torque is where it's at.   Ask the 1970 Buick Gran Sport 455, only 350 bhp but 510 lb ft of torque.  Fastest production muscle car in 1970 and one of the heaviest.

And Brother let me tell you,  if you didn't have a little of that same cantankerous mojo left in your bones, then you would be posting on a Honda Gold Wing forum and not a Custom Vehicle Operations Harley Davidson Site.
scotttttty   has ben lost for awhile now  :nixweiss: and I don't think anybody is looking for him
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scottt

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2019, 10:04:25 PM »

My Bike runs, handles and brakes great!  125 lbs ft of torque from a 4 valve 2 cyl engine is nothing to scoff at.  You should test ride one before you say that I obviously don't appreciate performance!     From what I can see, the BMW is only rated at 129 Lbs Ft of torque with all of those extra cylinders flying about?   Torque is where it's at.   Ask the 1970 Buick Gran Sport 455, only 350 bhp but 510 lb ft of torque.  Fastest production muscle car in 1970 and one of the heaviest.

And Brother let me tell you,  if you didn't have a little of that same cantankerous mojo left in your bones, then you would be posting on a Honda Gold Wing forum and not a Custom Vehicle Operations Harley Davidson Site.
I can assure you the performance difference in the two bikes is far greater than you illustrated. Had a guy with a pumped up Dyna keep screwing with me. Finally i got on it a little, literally blew him away.

The K1600's is only 1620cc, in a extremely well engineered straight 6cyl vs a much bigger twin.

The horsepower difference is dramatic without loosing low end torque.

You would be surprised at how many Harley owners really like the new B or bagger and GA grand America. K1600's designed for the American market here in Los Angeles by American Rolland Sands. My local BMW dealer has a 19 CVO Limited with roughly 500 miles. Traded in on a new K1600 B GA.

Seriously now; I've owned CVO's and still like the style. Not knocking them at all. As they say, a different kettle of fish. Designed with different objectives and target markets. Doesn't make one better than the other, just built for different  buyers.

I'm happy seeing riders ride. What they choose is there choice, good for them.

Enjoy that beautiful CVO, just don't race a K1600

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SDCVO

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2019, 12:33:53 AM »

I have both the 19 BMW Bagger (Grand America) and 19 CVO Roadglide. Both are amazing bikes with different strengths. The new GTS system IMO is amazing and is a pleasure to ride with. All the electronics on the BMW as far as comparing with the GTS are horrible and very outdated. On the other hand BMW puts all their technology into the riding systems that many of described ad nausiem on this forum. I did have the BMW manipulated tuned with speed limiter eliminated and horsepower increased by another 14 (came with 160 at the crank) so definitely a E ticket. I have 6600 miles on the Harley (got middle of Nov) and 6200 on BMW (got middle of Oct) so obviously I tend to ride Harley just a bit more especially considering I took the BMW on a 2100 mile trip with JC (needed the power to keep up with him ..).
I love both of them and feel very fortunate to have them.
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Alan

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2019, 12:45:22 AM »

I have both the 19 BMW Bagger (Grand America) and 19 CVO Roadglide. Both are amazing bikes with different strengths. The new GTS system IMO is amazing and is a pleasure to ride with. All the electronics on the BMW as far as comparing with the GTS are horrible and very outdated. On the other hand BMW puts all their technology into the riding systems that many of described ad nausiem on this forum. I did have the BMW manipulated tuned with speed limiter eliminated and horsepower increased by another 14 (came with 160 at the crank) so definitely a E ticket. I have 6600 miles on the Harley (got middle of Nov) and 6200 on BMW (got middle of Oct) so obviously I tend to ride Harley just a bit more especially considering I took the BMW on a 2100 mile trip with JC (needed the power to keep up with him ..).
I love both of them and feel very fortunate to have them.
and just to explain why I have both so all dont think I am that much of a brat. Got into a battle with Harley on my 17 CVO Streetglide that kept sumping  and thought it would end up being a year or 2 long legal battle as we had both dug our heels in the sand and I was done with the MoCo. JC talked me into trying the BMW Bagger and I bought it and then the MoCo gave in (last minute before I turned it over to a lawyer) and I ended up with both.
Still trying to convince my wife that story is true but I wouldn't tell a fib here...
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2019, 01:34:35 AM »

and just to explain why I have both so all dont think I am that much of a brat. Got into a battle with Harley on my 17 CVO Streetglide that kept sumping  and thought it would end up being a year or 2 long legal battle as we had both dug our heels in the sand and I was done with the MoCo. JC talked me into trying the BMW Bagger and I bought it and then the MoCo gave in (last minute before I turned it over to a lawyer) and I ended up with both.
Still trying to convince my wife that story is true but I wouldn't tell a fib here...
Your a blessed man, if money was no object id own both.

Your point about the two bikes being so different is right on. Both really nice but built for different purposes and generally buyer.

Enjoy those rides

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FLSTFI Dave

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2019, 09:02:01 AM »

My Bike runs, handles and brakes great!  125 lbs ft of torque from a 4 valve 2 cyl engine is nothing to scoff at.  You should test ride one before you say that I obviously don't appreciate performance!     From what I can see, the BMW is only rated at 129 Lbs Ft of torque with all of those extra cylinders flying about?   Torque is where it's at.   Ask the 1970 Buick Gran Sport 455, only 350 bhp but 510 lb ft of torque.  Fastest production muscle car in 1970 and one of the heaviest.

And Brother let me tell you,  if you didn't have a little of that same cantankerous mojo left in your bones, then you would be posting on a Honda Gold Wing forum and not a Custom Vehicle Operations Harley Davidson Site.

Bike runs good, not great.  Many are having issues with Sumping or oil transfer.  But even with zero problems, the bike only runs good.  As for suspension, it is fair at best, far from great.  It handles good, not great.  Brakes are great, when the rotors don't warp in less than 5000 miles.

I love my CVO Road Glide.  Obviously that is what I chose to buy, for more money than the BMW.  That said, the BMW handles way better than the Harley.  Like no comparison, a curve I can take at 80mph on the BMW At 55mph I would be dragging hard parts on the Harley.  The suspension is much better on the BMW.  The BMW will out accelerate the harley by a long shot, it will also have a lot faster top end.

My 13 CVO King is 140 Torque at the rear tire, not the 125 at the crank the 2019 CVO is.  Its also 138.5 HP at the rear tire.  It will beat my 19 CVO in a drag race, in top speed and in handling as it has Ohlin rear suspension and legends front.  It will corner faster too as the rear shock are an inch longer on the King, so more lean angle.    Even with all the work the BMW will still out run it in the corners.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2019, 10:18:03 AM »

Never understood why Indian had so many wet motors, but not on the bagger. I've been waiting for Harley to have a true wet motor on a bagger for a long time now, but I'll be too old by then. About 20 years ago I told Willie G I want a bike I can ride and eat Wings all day. He came up with the SERG which I love to this day, but I never lost my appetite for Wings. He just kept adding cc's to combat the emission losses and we now have a engine that runs so lean and hot that adding more cc's won't matter anymore. The days of the single crankpin, air cooled farm engine are over.
 I'm happy to have ridden in that era where a good carburetor, a set of blue streak points and a couple extra quarts of oil got you cross country and back without much drama. In that era the MOCO has just been messing with quick fixes that Porsche and Volkswagen had to abandon years ago, and its time to move on !

doc 
 
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 10:52:48 AM by grandpadoc »
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2019, 10:37:34 AM »

Bike runs good, not great.  Many are having issues with Sumping or oil transfer.  But even with zero problems, the bike only runs good.  As for suspension, it is fair at best, far from great.  It handles good, not great.  Brakes are great, when the rotors don't warp in less than 5000 miles.

I love my CVO Road Glide.  Obviously that is what I chose to buy, for more money than the BMW.  That said, the BMW handles way better than the Harley.  Like no comparison, a curve I can take at 80mph on the BMW At 55mph I would be dragging hard parts on the Harley.  The suspension is much better on the BMW.  The BMW will out accelerate the harley by a long shot, it will also have a lot faster top end.

My 13 CVO King is 140 Torque at the rear tire, not the 125 at the crank the 2019 CVO is.  Its also 138.5 HP at the rear tire.  It will beat my 19 CVO in a drag race, in top speed and in handling as it has Ohlin rear suspension and legends front.  It will corner faster too as the rear shock are an inch longer on the King, so more lean angle.    Even with all the work the BMW will still out run it in the corners.
Considering the performance, handling and ride difference you'll find the features and price comparison even more stark.

The BMW K1600 B or bagger is priced close to the HD road glide yet comes with more features than a CVO, less chrome.

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mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2019, 09:41:31 PM »

Never understood why Indian had so many wet motors, but not on the bagger. I've been waiting for Harley to have a true wet motor on a bagger for a long time now, but I'll be too old by then. About 20 years ago I told Willie G I want a bike I can ride and eat Wings all day. He came up with the SERG which I love to this day, but I never lost my appetite for Wings. He just kept adding cc's to combat the emission losses and we now have a engine that runs so lean and hot that adding more cc's won't matter anymore. The days of the single crankpin, air cooled farm engine are over.
 I'm happy to have ridden in that era where a good carburetor, a set of blue streak points and a couple extra quarts of oil got you cross country and back without much drama. In that era the MOCO has just been messing with quick fixes that Porsche and Volkswagen had to abandon years ago, and its time to move on !

doc
Ditto. IM will be introducing their wet touring motor in 2020.  HD should be paying attention...not following...EPA and the technology generation will retire the lawn mower engine.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2019, 01:04:00 PM »

Ditto. IM will be introducing their wet touring motor in 2020.  HD should be paying attention...not following...EPA and the technology generation will retire the lawn mower engine.
Your absolutely correct!

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2019, 08:02:27 PM »

Lady traded 2018 Indian on 2019 Harley Limited.

I was at my local dealership Sunday afternoon. They have used bikes lined up on the left as you walk in. The second bike was an Indian that looked like new. It was a 2018 with fairing and saddle bags in black with very low miles. I'm like why is this here, I keep hearing everyone is trading their HD's for Indians!

The salesperson said a lady fell in love with the Indian without shopping around and did an impulse buy. She then wanted to add a tour pack and other options and the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ kept adding up out of sight.

She comes to the HD dealership and the Limited met all her needs, did a test ride and the rest is history.

I looked it over pretty good and the ONLY thing I liked was the adjustable windshield not that it really matters at this point. The only thing worse than looking at a picture of an Indian is looking at one in person. Just not for me.

Carry on.
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mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2019, 09:51:31 PM »

Lady traded 2018 Indian on 2019 Harley Limited.

I was at my local dealership Sunday afternoon. They have used bikes lined up on the left as you walk in. The second bike was an Indian that looked like new. It was a 2018 with fairing and saddle bags in black with very low miles. I'm like why is this here, I keep hearing everyone is trading their HD's for Indians!

The salesperson said a lady fell in love with the Indian without shopping around and did an impulse buy. She then wanted to add a tour pack and other options and the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ kept adding up out of sight.

She comes to the HD dealership and the Limited met all her needs, did a test ride and the rest is history.

I looked it over pretty good and the ONLY thing I liked was the adjustable windshield not that it really matters at this point. The only thing worse than looking at a picture of an Indian is looking at one in person. Just not for me.

Carry on.
I'd probably ride one first.  But don't worry, no reports of Indians sumping, and as a bonus, there's no reason to drill a hole in the primary to keep the tranny fluid where it's supposed to be.
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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #56 on: May 03, 2019, 10:39:25 AM »

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2019, 06:47:33 PM »


  polarass will be reintroducing them soon.... so them Indian lovin fools can have a matching lawn mower , love it
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SERGU aka the RENTAL ... never home & always broke...Thnx FF

mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2019, 09:18:30 PM »

Not to be outdone, HD introduces the CVO lawn tractor.  Price is $4k above MSRP.  Must shut off every 1/2 hr due to sumping and tranny oil transfer.   The Live Wire Lawn Tractor is scheduled to be released in 2020 as soon as the MoCo can figure out how to not run over the recharging cord.
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Spiked Olive

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2019, 10:17:09 PM »

I'd probably ride one first.  But don't worry, no reports of Indians sumping, and as a bonus, there's no reason to drill a hole in the primary to keep the tranny fluid where it's supposed to be.

While you are correct don't think for a minute they are perfect either. Two in our Rolling Thunder chapter and to hear them talk I'll stay with HD.

111 Engine Failure: https://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/thunderstroke-111-failure.261252/

https://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/first-round-of-problems-with-the-chief-your-experiences.20655/

Hey I just noticed your location. You are a luck guy. We took a 9 day ride over Christmas and New Years to Key West from NC. Out first night was in St. Simons Island. Man we loved it! Stayed at Ocean Inn & Suites at the Light House and had dinner at The Half Shell. We look forward to making another trip down there.

Sorry to get off topic.
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mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2019, 10:57:35 PM »

Yes, St. Simons is a hidden coastal gem. Coastal living w/o the tourist, high rises, and crowds.  Next time you're here, try the Sapelo Crow, across from the Demere/Frederica traffic circle.  Also, Southern Living's best BBQ place, Southern Soul, is here too...on the other side of the traffic circle.

If you can swing the coin, the Ocean Lodge is a great place to stay too.  King & Prince isn't bad either. 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 10:59:28 PM by Mark »
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T-Roy

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2019, 08:37:49 AM »

While you are correct don't think for a minute they are perfect either. Two in our Rolling Thunder chapter and to hear them talk I'll stay with HD.

111 Engine Failure: https://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/thunderstroke-111-failure.261252/

https://www.indianmotorcycles.net/threads/first-round-of-problems-with-the-chief-your-experiences.20655/

The following is an entry in that forum thread mentioned above by the original poster. Now would Harley or one of their dealers act this way??

OK tribe, here is the latest on getting my Chieftain back on the road.

Last week I received a call from Susie (Service Manager at Arlen Ness Motorcycles) advising me my new Thunderstroke 111 had arrived! Much earlier than anticipated! Installation began on Tuesday, August 7, 2018, and due to high workload they expected it to be ready in three or four days. Well, late Tuesday, Susie called to advise me of a problem, asking if I ever re-positioned my handlebars, as they were so low turning them would cause the switch clusters to hit the gas tank.

She stated there was damage to the tank due to the position of the handlebars. I informed her I had not changed the handlebars at all, and the damage may have occurred during the bikes transport to the dealer on July 6, 2018. The bike was towed by Indian Roadside Assist, arranged by the dealer. When the bike was being strapped onto the flatbed tow truck I espressed my concern over his fixing his tie-downs to the handlebar grips. He advised this is how his company wants it done! So, I took many photos of my bikes perfect cosmetic condition before he towed her away.

NEVER LET ANYONE STRAP YOUR BIKE DOWN BY AFFIXING THE TIE-DOWNS TO YOUR HANDLEBARS/GRIPS!

This damage was not noticed by employees at Arlen Ness Motorcycles, as it was not noted on the inspection sheet.

Concerned, I drove 2.5 hours each way to see the damage myself. I must say it was great seeing my bike after more than a month, even though it was mostly stripped down completely! The damaged tank consisted only of a deep scratch about two inches long on the top left side of the tank. Their paint guy was called and arrived only to say he could not do a spot repair, and recommended a new tank.

Now I’m thinking its going now to be up to me to determine who did the damage, the tow company or an employee at Arlen Ness! Thinking I’m going to end up paying for a new tank out of my pocket. Susie advised she would look into how the damage occurred and call me. I drove home.

Susie called and informed me she had spoken with Stephen ( my claim guy at Indian) and it was decided a new tank would be overnighted at a shipping cost of $ 250, making it possible for my bike to be completed by Friday afternoon.
Susie advised she could not determine whether or not it was one of her employees who did the damage, so she would take full responsibility for the damage.

Now friends, sorry for the long post, but, I just wanted to let everyone know that Indian Motorcycles stands strong behind their warranty, supporting their customers, and that my dealer, Arlen Ness Motorcycles 6050 Dublin Blvd. Dublin, California really work hard at making their customers happy! I should note that Susie, and her husband Tim (my bikes mechanic) have worked at Arlen Ness for over 20 years! He is doing a great job installing my new motor, and I could not be happier with the way they have handled my warranty work! If you are ever in the area, please stop by Arlen Ness Motorcycles and give them some business!
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Spiked Olive

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2019, 09:38:22 AM »

T-Roy,
That s a great point. Customer service is everything. It can turn a bad situation in to a positive. HD could learn from that. I’m a little biased as I just am not a fan of Indian, and frankly HD is not feeling enough pain yet to change or improve policies.

Ride safe
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Spiked Olive

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2019, 09:41:55 AM »

Yes, St. Simons is a hidden coastal gem. Coastal living w/o the tourist, high rises, and crowds.  Next time you're here, try the Sapelo Crow, across from the Demere/Frederica traffic circle.  Also, Southern Living's best BBQ place, Southern Soul, is here too...on the other side of the traffic circle.

If you can swing the coin, the Ocean Lodge is a great place to stay too.  King & Prince isn't bad either.

Thanks Mark. Ocean Lodge looks great. The prices are not bad at all, just finding dates available seems to be an issue. Out of four we tried only October was open! Popular place.

I have a question for you. My Dad and stepmother were down there in the 90’s on business. They found a church that had amazing stained glass windows. When we told them we visited they asked if we saw the church. Do you know which one that would be?

Mark
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mark

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Re: rumored 120 horse indian motor's likely impact on CVO mkt
« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2019, 01:36:01 PM »

Thanks Mark. Ocean Lodge looks great. The prices are not bad at all, just finding dates available seems to be an issue. Out of four we tried only October was open! Popular place.

I have a question for you. My Dad and stepmother were down there in the 90’s on business. They found a church that had amazing stained glass windows. When we told them we visited they asked if we saw the church. Do you know which one that would be?

Mark

The most famous church on SSI is Christ Church on the north end, near Ft. Frederica.  Lots of tourist go there...that has to be it.  Check out their website, it shows the windows.  Link below:

https://ccfssi.org
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