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[SilverDawg]

I just read through the intake/exhaust threads and I am beginning to get a little more educated.  I know exhaust selection is very subjective and each of us has an idea on how we want our bikes to look and perform.  Let me give you some background and then perhaps some of you more learned folks can steer me in the right direction.

Here is the background:

*Have FLHRSE3 on order due in February
 *I live in Texas where, as you know, the summer can be very hot
 *I ride about 5-7K miles per year, quite a bit of it in the summer
 
Here are some additional facts that may help in the choice of exhaust systems:

*If I must choose, I would prefer increased torque vs. a higher top end.
*One of my main concerns, is to keep the bike running cooler in our hot Texas summers.  Do not    want to damage the engine due to excessive heat  (As I have read many threads here, this seems to be a big concern with the stock set up!)
* I currently run V & H big shot longs on my Heritage.  Love them, but for the CVO, maybe just a tad bit quieter.  I believe in the loud pipes theory!
* At this point in time, It appears at least I will need a SERT, K & N filter, to get started.
* My choices, based on very limited information, are at this time either true duals from Rinehart or the V & H set up.

Now, finally, to the questions.

1) Should I do any exhaust upgrades at delivery or after the 1000 mile service? (My dealer for this CVO is about 100 miles away. He was the only one willing to sell at MSRP and he has a great reputation for service from my buddy who has purchased 2 bikes from him, and he lives in the same area as I do)

2) Opinions on the two systems I mention above  (pros and cons please)

3) Any other essential items to get done at delivery (besides a diligent inspection of the paint)?

As I stated above, I am more concerned about better torque and lower operating temps that top end speed.  I plan on keeping this baby for a long time. 8-)

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Hoist!]

I just read through the intake/exhaust threads and I am beginning to get a little more educated.  I know exhaust selection is very subjective and each of us has an idea on how we want our bikes to look and perform.  Let me give you some background and then perhaps some of you more learned folks can steer me in the right direction.

Here is the background:

*Have FLHRSE3 on order due in February
 *I live in Texas where, as you know, the summer can be very hot
 *I ride about 5-7K miles per year, quite a bit of it in the summer
 
Here are some additional facts that may help in the choice of exhaust systems:

*If I must choose, I would prefer increased torque vs. a higher top end.
*One of my main concerns, is to keep the bike running cooler in our hot Texas summers.  Do not    want to damage the engine due to excessive heat  (As I have read many threads here, this seems to be a big concern with the stock set up!)
* I currently run V & H big shot longs on my Heritage.  Love them, but for the CVO, maybe just a tad bit quieter.  I believe in the loud pipes theory!
* At this point in time, It appears at least I will need a SERT, K & N filter, to get started.
* My choices, based on very limited information, are at this time either true duals from Rinehart or the V & H set up.

Now, finally, to the questions.

1) Should I do any exhaust upgrades at delivery or after the 1000 mile service? (My dealer for this CVO is about 100 miles away. He was the only one willing to sell at MSRP and he has a great reputation for service from my buddy who has purchased 2 bikes from him, and he lives in the same area as I do)

2) Opinions on the two systems I mention above  (pros and cons please)

3) Any other essential items to get done at delivery (besides a diligent inspection of the paint)?

As I stated above, I am more concerned about better torque and lower operating temps that top end speed.  I plan on keeping this baby for a long time. 8-)

Thanks in advance for your help.

Hi Cobalt. I too have a new SERK coming in 17 days now. Since everyone's been nice enough to put up with similar questions from me the past two months, I'll try to summarize my findings and conclusions. I ve made my decisions based on this research, but except for listening to exhaust systems on TC 88 & 95's, I haven't tried them personally.

The '07 SERK has a SE open-back air cleaner as stock. The K&N flows slightly better and is a better filter, so that's a no-brainer.

The heat generated appears mostly to be caused by the stock, lean running operating maps that HD must work with to comply with EPA. Changing/correcting this component will void your 2 Year Warranty. You must know the dealer and make sure he'll Guarantee your bike personally, if you care about your engine warranty. That being said, the solution is to get the motor to run proper A/F ratios across the entire RPM range. There appears to be two ways of accomplishing this.

One is to install something to "correct" the bike's stock ECM, such as SERT, PC (Power Commander). The SERT is a HD software package that has "maps" downloaded for various component upgrades. This system is burned into your ECM permanently and HD has a record of it. It leaves a permant record that is picked up by HD's Digital Technician at any dealer. Second is the PC type, which physically installs with you ECM. Any corrections are made to the PC, not your ECM. So it does not leave any trace of these corrections once removed. Both of these systems require Dyno Tuning for optimum mapping.

Second is to replace the ECM completely. There are two ECM systems I'm aware of, but the most popular seems to be the ThunderMax with AutoTune. This system not only replaces the ECM, but provides wide-band, closed-loop monitoring and control. It will continuously self-adjust itself, based on sensor readings, for the optimum mapping, without the need to Dyno Tune. This definitely complicates warranty even further.

There are two ways of replacing the dual exhaust system (besides 2>1's).

Of the two exhaust systems mentioned, the RH 's are louder. They also use their own headpipes with the muffler so you must use them as True-Duals, eliminating the stock headpipe and crossover system. This will generally yield less low/mid-range power/tq and better top end.

The V&H slip-ons can be used with stock headpipes or V&H True-Dual headpipes. With these, you can try the mufflers with the stock headpipes and change them later, if desired or necessary. Depending on muffler selection, the sound varies. RH makes a stock size slip-on system as well.

The TDs should offer less heat, but I'm not convinced how much yet, providing the ECM mod is done. That's what I'd like to find out, so as not to give up any low/mid-range power with the stock SERK cams set-up.

I believe in doing these mods right away so as not to subject my engine to factory set up incorrect operating conditions and excess heat.

Like you said, it's all saubjective, so I'm trying to explain the differences so you can try to decide on your own what's best for you. There are experts here that could perhaps provide you with more detatiled technical descriptions if necessary.

Do your research so you'll be ready when that new SERK arrives in Feb! I think I'm ready for mine now! Good Luck!

Hoist! 8-)

[SilverDawg]

Hoist,

Thanks for the detailed and thorough reply  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif].  Great information.  I will follow your acquisition very closely as it appears you are a little ahead of me on the research and receipt of the bike.

I'll continue to monitor this thread and read the rest of the topics relative to exhaust and tuning.  Please keep us updated on your progress.

Thanks again.

John

[GC_Super]

John,

Great and helpful info from Hoist.  I can't type fast enough to provide that much info in one post.  

One thing he said that I agree on completely is to do your mods right away. Never did see the reason to wait for a thousand miles, especially now with the lean stock set-up. I would much rather avoid the heat during break-in. Most everyone that has done the basic stage one with a race tuner and map #84 has been happy.  I did all mine at delivery and was very happy. Then did my dyno at 1100 miles. I'm in Texas also and am a big fan of the true duals. Much cooler for the rider and passenger as well.

Good luck and enjoy.   [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Robert

[SilverDawg]

Robert,

Thanks for the info.  Based upon what I have heard so far, and talking to a dealer yesterday, I will probably get the basic mods done at delivery, see how it runs, and then do the dyno tune at the first service.  Still have to decide between the true duals or using the stock heads with the slipons. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[Hoist!]

Robert,

Thanks for the info.  Based upon what I have heard so far, and talking to a dealer yesterday, I will probably get the basic mods done at delivery, see how it runs, and then do the dyno tune at the first service.  Still have to decide between the true duals or using the stock heads with the slipons. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

John, Unless you're using the RH stepdown TD's, you can do both. Most slip-ons will fit the factory headpipes and TD headpipes. V&H TD headpipes anyway. This will allow you to try the slip-ons first and add the TD's later if you're still not happy. Unless you're doing substantial engine mods, I don't feel that you'll notice much difference with any of these combos, when properly tuned. With HiPo engine mods, I'd probably be looking at the stepdown RH TD's or a 2>1 system. Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

John,
Hoist gave you a very thorough response.  He has done a lot of research and asked a lot of questions in these forums.  I think he'll know more than the MoCo by the time his SERK comes in.    I had the V&H duals and oval mufflers put on prior to delivery.  I'm running the SE Air Cleaner and SERT (right now with the 84 map "burned" in).  I'm taking it in next Tuesday for it's 1K service (actually will only have about 900 miles on it) and then having them put it on the dyno to peak and tweak the setup.  I don't regret having everything done before delivery and not waiting until the 1K.  Compare to my 88, which had the stock headers on it, the 110 runs cooler in the same conditions, or at least my right thigh doesn't feel all the heat that cross-over generated.  I think the school is still out as to what's better...stock headers/cross-over vs true duals.  Some say true duals are more for looks and heat, and some say that the stock cross-overs are closer to doing a 2-into-1 setup, which is supposedly the the best way to go but only a few manufacture a "dummy" muffler for the left side.  I personally like the balanced look on the baggers.  (Then there's the "hillbilly mod", which you can find in other threads here, that basically plugs the cross-over to the left muffler and gives you a stock-look 2-into-1)  I got a chance to listen to both the Vance & Hines setup and the Rineharts at my dealership before I made my decision.  The Vance and Hines ovals gave me the sound I liked a little better over the Rhineharts.  One thing I like about the Vance and Hines ovals is that when I'm going through neighborhoods at 5am, I can keep them fairly quiet and keeping the neighbors happy, but in the same vein, you can really make them bark without really trying.  They also have a nice pleasant rumble at 75 miles an hour so that I can hear my radio just fine.   The ovals can also be fitted with an optional performance baffle that will make them louder, if you desire, or an optional quiet baffle that will, well, you guessed it, make them quieter.  If you get the chance listen to the mufflers you're thinking about and then make the choice.  As far as performance goes, headers will give you a little better high end performance, the cross-overs and 2-into-1s will give you a little better lower end performance.  I personally can't tell the difference.  That 110 smokes compared to my old 88, so I guess it's all subjective. My dealership has no problems honoring the warranty with the mods that I did, as long as I had them done by them.   I purchased a 7-year extended warranty, because, like you, I'm planning on keeping this ride for a long time.  They basically told me that because all the mods were external and they did them, that they won't have any problems with warranty.  Now, I kind of took that to mean that if I go inside the engine, i.e. cams, that it may be a different story.  I'm not planning on doing that anyway.     Hope this helps.

Red

By the way, congrats on the 1K level Hoist.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[SilverDawg]

Thanks Red and Hoist.

Good stuff to consider.  The dealer where I bought my heritage recommended the 2 into 1 system for increased performance, but I do not want to give up the look of the duals.  I called my CVO dealer today and he really likes Rineharts, but his service manager and parts person are still out on vacation.  I'll give them a call next week to get their take on things.

I'll also have Hoists experience to help guide me , as he takes delivery well before I do.

[RedDevil]

Thanks Red and Hoist.

Good stuff to consider.  The dealer where I bought my heritage recommended the 2 into 1 system for increased performance, but I do not want to give up the look of the duals.  I called my CVO dealer today and he really likes Rineharts, but his service manager and parts person are still out on vacation.  I'll give them a call next week to get their take on things.

I'll also have Hoists experience to help guide me , as he takes delivery well before I do.

My dealer was about 50/50 on whether to get the Vance and Hines or the Rineharts.  They said I'd be happy with either setup and it basically boiled down to what I liked for sound and appearance.  I had to agree with them after hearing both setups.   I personally, like the looks and sound of the Ovals over the Rineharts.  Some people, are considering the S&S SPO oval mufflers.  I got a chance to hear those about a week ago and, in my opinion, didn't like the sound of them at all.  

Red

[VaEagle]

Hi RedDevil,
What about the S&S SPO sound did you not like?
Compairing them to the V&H ovals how would you describe the sound? Higher,lower volume and tone wise.

[RedDevil]

Hi RedDevil,
What about the S&S SPO sound did you not like?
Compairing them to the V&H ovals how would you describe the sound? Higher,lower volume and tone wise.

Va,
The bike I heard them on was an '05 Ultra w/a 95 big bore kit.  For some reason, and I've never been accused of having great hearing, they sounded "flat" and didn't have the rumble that I want in my exhaust.  When he rev'd the bike up when leaving the parking lot, they just seemed to lack any character, IMHO.  It's hard to describe, but they just didn't do anything for me.  And I wasn't too impressed with the looks from behind.  Obviously, I like the oval look, but these are almost retangular.  I'm not trying to flame anyone that has them or is thinking about getting them.  I know I wouldn't have been happy with them.  But that's just me.  I know web sound files can be misleading but go to this link  http://www.sscycle.com/ and click on "Feature" and then click on the sound file for the SPO mufflers.  What I heard is pretty dog gone close to that sound.  This link is a fairly good representation of the Vance and Hines Ovals.  click on the link then, "hear the oval slip-ons" : http://www.vanceandhines.com/a201_ovals_drs.html
Red

[VaEagle]

Thanks for the reply RedDevil,
I tried your link and I guess the site has changed for the holiday? I can't locate the sound file on the S&S SPOs. I have not seen them in this area so I haven't heard them in person. I have heard the V&H on the website and in person,They are very nice.I would consider them as well. Just didn't know how the two compaired. I know on the quiet muffler thread someone posted they loved the SPOs and you are the first I have heard not liking the sound. I have seen negative about the looks and I admit they are a little different but that's not always bad. 8-)

[RedDevil]

Thanks for the reply RedDevil,
[highlight]I tried your link and I guess the site has changed for the holiday? [/highlight]I can't locate the sound file on the S&S SPOs. I have not seen them in this area so I haven't heard them in person. I have heard the V&H on the website and in person,They are very nice.I would consider them as well. Just didn't know how the two compaired. I know on the quiet muffler thread someone posted they loved the SPOs and you are the first I have heard not liking the sound. I have seen negative about the looks and I admit they are a little different but that's not always bad. 8-)

VA,
When you click on the "Feature" icon, you'll see the SPO sound link in the middle of the page.  Click on it twice and see if that works.  That's what I had to do.  Sorry, I didn't mention that before.   Like I said, don't go by my sense of hearing. I just didn't care for the sound of them.  And you're right, different isn't always bad.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  Bottom line, the only person that has to like what you put on your bike, is you.  

Red

[WideOpen]

I've been reading these intake/exhaust posts with great interest ever since I discovered this site. Now that I'm a member and am expecting my new RK in 3 to 4 weeks I'm going to go ahead and join the discussion.

Was at my dealer today to talk to my salesperson to pin him down on the sert/warranty issue and he swore to me doing the mod would not affect my warranty. He told me the competing dealer down the road won't do it. Hoping he is right. He said they could use the V&H fuel pack if I was wasn't convinced. [highlight] Would that possibly be a better way to go?[/highlight]

The mods I am hoping to use are:
Doherty intake [highlight]Will my CVO aircleaner cover go over it?[/highlight]
D&D Boarzilla 2>1 with left side ghost pipe
SERT

Sound like a good plan?

By the way, my dealer recommended I do this all at the 1,000 service so I can have it dyno tuned to dial in the SERT. Being winter here I think I'll be alright as far as heat is concerned if I'm careful to stay away from heavy traffic.  Thay way I have time to consider other accessories I may want to add before using up my one time 20% off coupon.

I'll consider other suggestions.

[RedDevil]

I've been reading these intake/exhaust posts with great interest ever since I discovered this site. Now that I'm a member and am expecting my new RK in 3 to 4 weeks I'm going to go ahead and join the discussion.

Was at my dealer today to talk to my salesperson to pin him down on the sert/warranty issue and he swore to me doing the mod would not affect my warranty. He told me the competing dealer down the road won't do it. Hoping he is right. He said they could use the [highlight]V&H fuel pack if I was wasn't convinced[/highlight]. [highlight] Would that possibly be a better way to go?[/highlight]

The mods I am hoping to use are:
Doherty intake [highlight]Will my CVO aircleaner cover go over it?[/highlight]
D&D Boarzilla 2>1 with left side ghost pipe
SERT

Sound like a good plan?

By the way, my dealer recommended I do this all at the 1,000 service so I can have it dyno tuned to dial in the SERT. Being winter here I think I'll be alright as far as heat is concerned if I'm careful to stay away from heavy traffic.  Thay way I have time to consider other accessories I may want to add before using up my one time 20% off coupon.

I'll consider other suggestions.

The V&H doesn't give you the flexibility that the SERT will give you when it comes to the amount of tuning an experienced tech can do to your EFI.  The disadvantage to the SERT, which I have, is that it actually "imprints" the new map into the EFI module on your bike, so when a diagnostics computer is attached, the reading will show that the EFI mapping has been changed.  The advantage to the Fuel Pak is that, it's a "piggy-back" unit that actually goes between your EFI controller and the injectors and "fools" the EFI ECU into thinking it's giving the right fuel/air mixture for the situation.  I believe, but am not certain, that the Fuel Pak does support the O2 sensors, whereas the PCIII does not and you have to use the O2 eliminators to fool the EFI ECU into thinking the sensors are there.   My dealer will honor the warranty, even with the SERT, as long as they are then ones that did the install, which they were.  I'm not personally knowledgeable in the D&D's, but from what I've read, a lot of people like them and go with them.   Good luck in whatever way you chose to go.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

[DHTDHT]

Your concerns are very similar to mine. When I took delivery of my SE 110 Springer, I could feel excessive heat pouring off the engine, and then became aware of the lean factory condtions.  But unlike many here, I found the stock SE mufflers sufficiently loud and the bike sufficiently torquey. Yours will have 10 more ft-lbs. of torque than mine — that is how the dresser is factory tuned.  For me, I wanted the bike to run cooler as a first priority, and also be able to do future mods if needed.  I did the SERT only, and achieved the proper A/F ratio. The bike runs much cooler now. Our dealer in Arizona has noted overheating problems with the SE Electraglide and the Road King, but not with the Dyna and Springer.

I don't think you'll lose a thing by addressing the AF ratio first and doing no mods, be that with a SERT or a PC.  Ride the bike a while with a richer mixture, then decide for yourself if you want a louder and more potent bike. You can always change pipes and programs later. As some of the above posts allude, the cross-over pipe "may" give more low end torque.

[Fired00d]

Your concerns are very similar to mine. When I took delivery of my SE 110 Springer, I could feel excessive heat pouring off the engine, and then became aware of the lean factory condtions.  But unlike many here, I found the stock SE mufflers sufficiently loud and the bike sufficiently torquey. Yours will have 10 more ft-lbs. of torque than mine — that is how the dresser is factory tuned.  For me, I wanted the bike to run cooler as a first priority, and also be able to do future mods if needed.  I did the [highlight]SERK[/highlight] only, and achieved the proper A/F ratio. The bike runs much cooler now. Our dealer in Arizona has noted overheating problems with the SE Electraglide and the Road King, but not with the Dyna and Springer.

I don't think you'll lose a thing by addressing the AF ratio first and doing no mods, be that with a [highlight]SERK[/highlight] or a PC.  Ride the bike a while with a richer mixture, then decide for yourself if you want a louder and more potent bike. You can always change pipes and programs later. As some of the above posts allude, the cross-over pipe "may" give more low end torque.

I'm thinking you mean SERT/Screamin Eagle Race Tuner in the highlighted statements above?

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Rhino]

Hi WO,

Just thought I would add  my 02.  So far everyone's suggestions seem pretty good.  It comes down to personal preference.  I disagree that warranty will be voided with any mild changes, even sert.  99% of dealers will cover, especially your own.  There are a few dealers that really suck, and only want to sell accessories, no engine anything.  Stay away from them and you will have a great time.  Larger dealers are really into the modifications, and certainly any one of those will tow the line if they approve an install.  

But as far as performance, the reality is that there is not going to be ANY seat-of-the-pants discernable difference when you go to your choice of aftermarket Air Filter (say more intake air), slip on's  (more exhaust air flow) or true duals (more air flow but less torque than stock crossover arrangement and slip on's) versus stock, and finally, 2 gozinta 1's (more torque than TD's and Stock, but naked on one side)    But when you make the change over from stock, whatever your choice, make sure you have a way to change, and monitor, the air fuel across the board.  Of course more fuel will run the motor cooler, but to much and it is inefficient.  To lean, well, you are defeating the purpose then.

Stay away (IMHO [smiley=nervous.gif])...from gadgets that lie to your ecm. Here's why.  If for some reason you had a failure of the add on lying machine, you will be running so lean that you can burn stuff up.  So you now have a bike you should not ride, and should get to a dealer.  If you had a SERT installed by Harley, why enjoy the warranty. The first map costs, and any good dyno shop came make it right because you travel with the inteface module. And that's only if you have a problem.  But if you got one of those funky market hype Fuel Pacages for example, and it fails, what are ya gonna do?  Roll into your harley dealer and buy another one or wait for an exchange or repair? Or just have em plug the SERT Module in and get you going fast. Any way I see it is this:  If Harley's ECM codes are secret, and they want to sell you a sert for the privledge of using a map that can be changed, to specifically change fuel to handle open air systems, so be it.  But to try and run aftermarket and not change to a SERT? Well, THAT would be a warranty breaker for sure.

JMnotsoHO

Rhino

[size=8]Welcome to fantasyland[/size]

[Hoist!]

Va,
The bike I heard them on was an '05 Ultra w/a 95 big bore kit.  For some reason, and I've never been accused of having great hearing, they sounded "flat" and didn't have the rumble that I want in my exhaust.  When he rev'd the bike up when leaving the parking lot, they just seemed to lack any character, IMHO.  It's hard to describe, but they just didn't do anything for me.  And I wasn't too impressed with the looks from behind.  Obviously, I like the oval look, but these are almost retangular.  I'm not trying to flame anyone that has them or is thinking about getting them.  I know I wouldn't have been happy with them.  But that's just me.  I know web sound files can be misleading but go to this link  http://www.sscycle.com/ and click on "Feature" and then click on the sound file for the SPO mufflers.  What I heard is pretty dog gone close to that sound.  This link is a fairly good representation of the Vance and Hines Ovals.  click on the link then, "hear the oval slip-ons" : http://www.vanceandhines.com/a201_ovals_drs.html
Red

Hey RD, Thanks for the congrats. Your post is good to compare these two mufflers. Open both sites up in separate windows. Put the S&S site on top of the V&H site, where you can hit the V&H play button right after the S&S sound ends. The end of the S&S is the bike pulling away. That's all the V&H gives you. You can compare them next to each other. Try to use a decent sound sys. with subwoofer and crank it up a little. Compared to what I've heard with these mufflers live, these are accurate reproductions, to my ear. The S&S are quieter and deeper, muffled hot-rod style. The V&H can bark a little louder but seem to resonate a little more. It's amazing how much different peoples ears are when it comes to this. You like the V&H, I like the S&S. We both love our bikes and the way they sound! Hoist!  8-)

[Hoist!]

Hi WO,

Just thought I would add  my 02.  So far everyone's suggestions seem pretty good.  It comes down to personal preference.  I disagree that warranty will be voided with any mild changes, even sert.  99% of dealers will cover, especially your own.  There are a few dealers that really suck, and only want to sell accessories, no engine anything.  Stay away from them and you will have a great time.  Larger dealers are really into the modifications, and certainly any one of those will tow the line if they approve an install.  

But as far as performance, the reality is that there is not going to be ANY seat-of-the-pants discernable difference when you go to your choice of aftermarket Air Filter (say more intake air), slip on's  (more exhaust air flow) or true duals (more air flow but less torque than stock crossover arrangement and slip on's) versus stock, and finally, 2 gozinta 1's (more torque than TD's and Stock, but naked on one side)    But when you make the change over from stock, whatever your choice, make sure you have a way to change, and monitor, the air fuel across the board.  Of course more fuel will run the motor cooler, but to much and it is inefficient.  To lean, well, you are defeating the purpose then.

Stay away (IMHO [smiley=nervous.gif])...from gadgets that lie to your ecm. Here's why.  If for some reason you had a failure of the add on lying machine, you will be running so lean that you can burn stuff up.  So you now have a bike you should not ride, and should get to a dealer.  If you had a SERT installed by Harley, why enjoy the warranty. The first map costs, and any good dyno shop came make it right because you travel with the inteface module. And that's only if you have a problem.  But if you got one of those funky market hype Fuel Pacages for example, and it fails, what are ya gonna do?  Roll into your harley dealer and buy another one or wait for an exchange or repair? Or just have em plug the SERT Module in and get you going fast. Any way I see it is this:  If Harley's ECM codes are secret, and they want to sell you a sert for the privledge of using a map that can be changed, to specifically change fuel to handle open air systems, so be it.  But to try and run aftermarket and not change to a SERT? Well, THAT would be a warranty breaker for sure.

JMnotsoHO

Rhino

[size=8]Welcome to fantasyland[/size]

The other side.

First you need to determine what level of mods you're planning to do. If all you're doing is "open air" A/C and pipes, a stock '07 HD can handle this with no ECM modifications. This is per HD. Therefore your bike should be able to run fine, without doing any damage by running too lean, no worse than as stock. The narrow band closed loop system is supposed to account for this. Do I believe this? NO. The stock isn't even right! However, this allows me to pull off the PC and O2 Elims and get to any dealer to look at my bike under warranty. This also gives me the flexibility of having who I want to do my service and mods instead of being locked into a dealer. I'm not saying all dealers won't allow you warranty flexibility, but this way any dealer should have to honor it. I've thought long and hard about this one. I think this solution makes sense. What am I missing? It is a tough choice! This arguement doesn't apply at all if you're planning any more work than we're talking here. Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

Hey RD, Thanks for the congrats. Your post is good to compare these two mufflers. Open both sites up in separate windows. Put the S&S site on top of the V&H site, where you can hit the V&H play button right after the S&S sound ends. The end of the S&S is the bike pulling away. That's all the V&H gives you. You can compare them next to each other. Try to use a decent sound sys. with subwoofer and crank it up a little. Compared to what I've heard with these mufflers live, these are accurate reproductions, to my ear. The S&S are quieter and deeper, muffled hot-rod style. The V&H can bark a little louder but seem to resonate a little more. [highlight]It's amazing how much different peoples ears are when it comes to this. You like the V&H, I like the S&S. We both love our bikes and the way they sound![/highlight] Hoist!  8-)

You're absolutely right Hoist, that's why I always say what I do..."the only person that has to like, or be happy with, what you put on your machine, is you."   Everyone has different tastes and likes, that's why there's soooooooooooooo many choices out there.   As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter which way you go, as long as you're happy, and keeps you in the saddle and on the road. Cuz, that's what it's all about, ridin in the wind. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  And you're right on the sounds, with some fairly good speakers, they are pretty dog gone realistic. 8-)
Red

[Fired00d]

....  And you're right on the sounds, with some fairly good speakers, they are pretty dog gone realistic. 8-)
Red

That's no joke. I have some what I would say are "fairly good speakers" (surround sound, center speaker, and woofer) and and I could definitely say the sound is nice. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[RedDevil]

That's no joke. I have some what I would say are "fairly good speakers" (surround sound, center speaker, and woofer) and and I could definitely say the sound is nice. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

Sounds like you've got a nice setup for your 'puter.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  I've been trying to find a sound bite for the Rineharts, but haven't had any luck.  Maybe someone with a set could make one and we could post all the sound bites.  They're not perfect, but they would give some idea as to what the different mufflers sound like, and could be more helpful in deciding what is "best" for each individual's tastes.  Just a thought....

Red

[Fired00d]

.....I've been trying to find a sound bite for the Rineharts, but haven't had any luck.....

Red

I've got one (Rinehart) but its in MP3 format, can't post it, but I can email it to you if you want. Send me a PM w/email address.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[RedDevil]

I've got one (Rinehart) but its in MP3 format, can't post it, but I can email it to you if you want. Send me a PM w/email address.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

d00d,
Thanks for the offer.  I was fortunate to get to hear a side-by-side comparrison at my dealership with the V&H Ovals and the Rineharts.   It was a really tough decision as to which way to go.  They priced about about equally, the dealer said they provided roughly the same performance characteristics, and it boiled down to which sound and looks I wanted to go with.   Both mufflers, IMHO, sound great.   I was hoping that we could post sound bites on the forum so that others can get an idea of what the various mufflers sound like.  To me it's an important decision.  It's like an audio system, you can have the best top-of-the-line receiver, amp, digital media, but if your speakers don't sound right, it makes the whole system sound bad.   Kind of the same with the mufflers....if they don't sound the way you like them, then it kind of changes the way you feel about the whole setup.  It was just a thought....I don't know if anyone else would be interested in something like that.   Either way, I'm planning on taking advantage of the 50 degree weather here today and getting out on the ride.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Red

[Fired00d]

d00d,
Thanks for the offer.  I was fortunate to get to hear a side-by-side comparrison at my dealership with the V&H Ovals and the Rineharts......   Either way, I'm planning on taking advantage of the 50 degree weather here today and getting out on the ride.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Red

No problem, have a great ride today. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[SilverDawg]

Was at a Harley store today and got to hear what a set of RH true duals sound like in person.

They were installed on an 05 SE and they sounded great.  Could only listen for about 5 seconds, but long enough to pretty much make up my mind to do with RH.  Now, do I go slips, or TD?  Decisions, decisions. [smiley=nervous.gif]

[GC_Super]

Cobalt, the true dual RH's will sound toatlly different than the RH slip ons. The stock crossover sends most of the flow out the right side, where the duals are more equal and will be much louder.

[Hoist!]

Cobalt, the true dual RH's will sound toatlly different than the RH slip ons. The stock crossover sends most of the flow out the right side, where the duals are more equal and will be much louder.

That being said, what kind of difference would you notice with the stepdown RH TD's vs. the RH Slip-ons w/TD headpipes (smaller version muffler)? Thanks. Hoist!  8-)

[GC_Super]

Hoist, to me, after looking at lots of dynos, the RH duals seem to produce the most HP, but at the expense of torque in the lower rpms. Compared to a V&H dual that's not stepped, the V&H's are better down low. Granted, the seat of the pants dyno may not notice the difference, it's just what shows up on a dyno.
I'm sort of a pipe freak, I've had them all. Rineharts, V&H, FAt Cat, slip ons, modified this and modified that.  It all boils down to what you like personally and more importantly, how it feel to you on your particular bike. A pipe like the Fat Cat can sound TOTALLY different with different motors and especially cams. I wish someone would tell me what the perfect pipe is so I could stop adding supplies to build a chrome fence.  

[Hoist!]

Hoist, to me, after looking at lots of dynos, the RH duals seem to produce the most HP, but at the expense of torque in the lower rpms. Compared to a V&H dual that's not stepped, the V&H's are better down low. Granted, the seat of the pants dyno may not notice the difference, it's just what shows up on a dyno.
I'm sort of a pipe freak, I've had them all. Rineharts, V&H, FAt Cat, slip ons, modified this and modified that.  It all boils down to what you like personally and more importantly, how it feel to you on your particular bike. A pipe like the Fat Cat can sound TOTALLY different with different motors and especially cams. I wish someone would tell me what the perfect pipe is so I could stop adding supplies to build a chrome fence.  

That's about what I figured by now. That's why I'm using the S&S. I just like 'em! They sound right for me. My guy's telling me to use the TD's with them. I'm putting them on the stock headpipes first. I'll be breaking it in during winter. If the heat's too bad or a lack of top end, I'll add the TD headpipes at the 1K Dyno-tune. Thanks man. Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

That's about what I figured by now. That's why I'm using the S&S. I just like 'em! They sound right for me. My guy's telling me to use the TD's with them. I'm putting them on the stock headpipes first. I'll be breaking it in during winter. If the heat's too bad or a lack of top end, I'll add the TD headpipes at the 1K Dyno-tune. Thanks man. Hoist!  8-)

Hoist,
Sounds like you've got a good plan there.    I'm taking my B&O in for it's 1K service next Tuesday and also getting it dyno'd.  It runs great now with the 84 map in it, so I'm hoping for a little better with a custom map.  Time (and a print-out) will tell.  Will let all of you know the results when I get them.

Red

[Hoist!]

Hoist,
Sounds like you've got a good plan there.    I'm taking my B&O in for it's 1K service next Tuesday and also getting it dyno'd.  It runs great now with the 84 map in it, so I'm hoping for a little better with a custom map.  Time (and a print-out) will tell.  Will let all of you know the results when I get them.

Red

Thanks Red. I'm glad it's running right with just the map. I don't think PC has maps for the 110 yet. My friend's going to talk to Dyna and S&S to get their best recommendations for the initial set-up, since I don't want it Dyno'd until 1K. He said he'd be able to get one close enough since I'm on break-in and won't be using the top end very much and not until the second 500mi. He's looking forward to getting on the Dyno to give it a good tune. He's had 2 other 110's already and is really good at setting motors up. Looking forward to you results. Have a Great New Year Red! [smiley=drink.gif] Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

Thanks Red. I'm glad it's running right with just the map. I don't think PC has maps for the 110 yet. My friend's going to talk to Dyna and S&S to get their best recommendations for the initial set-up, since I don't want it Dyno'd until 1K. He said he'd be able to get one close enough since I'm on break-in and won't be using the top end very much and not until the second 500mi. He's looking forward to getting on the Dyno to give it a good tune. He's had 2 other 110's already and is really good at setting motors up. Looking forward to you results. Have a Great New Year Red! [smiley=drink.gif] Hoist!  8-)

Hoist,
One thing I've noticed with the true duals is I don't get exhaust "pops" when doing engine decels or when shifting.  I used to get those all the time with my 02 Ultra, which had the stock header pipes, SE mufflers, and the SE AC, but only had the one-time chip download instead of a SERT.  I never had that bike dyno'd, as I figured for that basic of a setup, it didn't really need it.  Perhaps it did?  :-/  I don't use the upper range on my bikes.  I think I only put the 02 up to the rev limiter once, just to do it.   I don't think I've had the SEUC up past 4500 rpms yet.  In fact when they dyno it, that will probably be the first time that engine goes to the rev limiter.  My bike will only be the second '07 SEUC they've done, but will be the 3th or 4th 110.

Hope you have a great New Year too [smiley=alcohol.gif] [smiley=beerchug.gif] [smiley=balloon.gif] [smiley=balloon2.gif] [smiley=balloon3.gif]
Red

[Hoist!]

Hoist,
One thing I've noticed with the true duals is I don't get exhaust "pops" when doing engine decels or when shifting.  I used to get those all the time with my 02 Ultra, which had the stock header pipes, SE mufflers, and the SE AC, but only had the one-time chip download instead of a SERT.  I never had that bike dyno'd, as I figured for that basic of a setup, it didn't really need it.  Perhaps it did?  :-/  I don't use the upper range on my bikes.  I think I only put the 02 up to the rev limiter once, just to do it.   I don't think I've had the SEUC up past 4500 rpms yet.  In fact when they dyno it, that will probably be the first time that engine goes to the rev limiter.  My bike will only be the second '07 SEUC they've done, but will be the 3th or 4th 110.

Hope you have a great New Year too [smiley=alcohol.gif] [smiley=beerchug.gif] [smiley=balloon.gif] [smiley=balloon2.gif] [smiley=balloon3.gif]
Red

Hey Red. The decel popping is definitely tuning. It happened from the early CV carb days when "leanness" became HD's key to staying one step ahead of the EPA, barely. Sealing the carb adustments after improper settings were made the norm. Then drilling out the adjustments and rejetting, etc. became the cure. Same with the FI. You have to dial-in every engine, no matter what. I don't think the stock headpipes are the cause of the popping, the stock factory settings are. Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

... I don't think the stock headpipes are the cause of the popping, the stock factory settings are. Hoist!  8-)

I think you're absolutely correct.  Harley has to do whatever they can to keep the air cooled engines meeting the ever tightening EPA standards.  Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on which camp you're from, the end of the air cooled engine is frightfully close.  [smiley=end.gif]  There's not too much more they can do to them to make them run any cleaner, except cats on all models, along with the O2 sensors, and make them run as lean as possible.  All leads to bad juju I'm afraid.  I've spoken with a few dealers and all acknowledge that with the tightening of the regs, the water-cooled engine is the future of the MoCo.   So save them air-cooled machines, if you're like me, and think that's the only "real" Harley on the road.  I've seen reports in some of the MC rags, that the MoCo is getting ready to introduce a water-cooled Sportster.  Some of the writers thought that it might have been for '07, but are now thinking '08 for sure.  I've also heard rumors that they are working on an 1800cc version of the V-Rod engine and testing it in an FLHTCU-type configuration.   [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Red

[Hoist!]

I think you're absolutely correct.  Harley has to do whatever they can to keep the air cooled engines meeting the ever tightening EPA standards.  Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on which camp you're from, the end of the air cooled engine is frightfully close.  [smiley=end.gif]  There's not too much more they can do to them to make them run any cleaner, except cats on all models, along with the O2 sensors, and make them run as lean as possible.  All leads to bad juju I'm afraid.  I've spoken with a few dealers and all acknowledge that with the tightening of the regs, the water-cooled engine is the future of the MoCo.   So save them air-cooled machines, if you're like me, and think that's the only "real" Harley on the road.  I've seen reports in some of the MC rags, that the MoCo is getting ready to introduce a water-cooled Sportster.  Some of the writers thought that it might have been for '07, but are now thinking '08 for sure.  I've also heard rumors that they are working on an 1800cc version of the V-Rod engine and testing it in an FLHTCU-type configuration.   [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Red

I tend to agree with that Red. I said that when the V-Rod was first introduced. The beginning of the end! I thought my '03RK was my last new HD and I'd keep it forever. That was until I saw the '07 SERK. Now I'm saying that will be my last. I hope it never ends, but like all good things...! Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

I tend to agree with that Red. I said that when the V-Rod was first introduced. The beginning of the end! I thought my '03RK was my last new HD and I'd keep it forever. That was until I saw the '07 SERK. Now I'm saying that will be my last. [highlight]I hope it never ends[/highlight], but like all good things...! Hoist!  8-)

Amen Bro, I hope the same.  But I fear it won't last much longer.  [smiley=bigcry.gif]

[Rhino]

The other side.

First you need to determine what level of mods you're planning to do. If all you're doing is "open air" A/C and pipes, a stock '07 HD can handle this with no ECM modifications. This is per HD. Therefore your bike should be able to run fine, without doing any damage by running too lean, no worse than as stock. The narrow band closed loop system is supposed to account for this. Do I believe this? NO. The stock isn't even right! However, this allows me to pull off the PC and O2 Elims and get to any dealer to look at my bike under warranty. This also gives me the flexibility of having who I want to do my service and mods instead of being locked into a dealer. I'm not saying all dealers won't allow you warranty flexibility, but this way any dealer should have to honor it. I've thought long and hard about this one. I think this solution makes sense. What am I missing? It is a tough choice! This arguement doesn't apply at all if you're planning any more work than we're talking here. Hoist!  8-)

Oh my Hoist, are you failing me?  The narrow band sensors only work at cruise, NOT at accel or decel, or any range of movement, only at cruise.  Therefore, you will run really lean when you accelerate.  Not the time to be worrying.  Do this.  Accelerate after the motor warms up.  With your AC & pipes and stock ecm, Do a roll on to redline and hit the cutoff switch and coast to the side of the road. Let it cool and pull a plug.  It will be white as snow.  This is a bad thing.

[kojak]

Hoist,
Rhino is right on! My before dyno chart (completely stock) was way too lean over most of the rpm range. Just changing the exhaust and ac means you are pumping more air through the engine at higher rpms and will make the situation worse imo! Happy new year! [smiley=drink.gif]

[RedDevil]

The other side.

First you need to determine what level of mods you're planning to do. If all you're doing is "open air" A/C and pipes, a stock '07 HD can handle this with no ECM modifications. [highlight]This is per HD[/highlight]. Therefore your bike should be able to run fine, without doing any damage by running too lean, no worse than as stock. The narrow band closed loop system is supposed to account for this. [highlight]Do I believe this? NO[/highlight]. [highlight]The stock isn't even right[/highlight]! However, this allows me to pull off the PC and O2 Elims and get to any dealer to look at my bike under warranty. This also gives me the flexibility of having who I want to do my service and mods instead of being locked into a dealer. I'm not saying all dealers won't allow you warranty flexibility, but this way any dealer should have to honor it. I've thought long and hard about this one. I think this solution makes sense. What am I missing? It is a tough choice! This arguement doesn't apply at all if you're planning any more work than we're talking here. Hoist!  8-)

I think you missed Hoist's point.  He's not saying to run the engine with a stock EFI map and SEAC (or equivalent) and freer breathing exhaust pipes under normal operations.  He was just extolling the virtue of the PC, that's it's removable, and therefore undetectable when hooked up to a diagnotics computer when going in for warranty work, vice the SERT, which actually remaps the EFI and leaves it's "mark".   Now the best thing to do in that case is find a dealer, like mine, that will state, in writing preferably, that any exhuast/EFI mods done, as long as it's done by them, won't void the warranty.  That makes the decisions a little easier, IMHO, on what to do then.   (Big caveat here though, I took their guarantee to be that as long as I stayed external of the engine...so if I decided to put cams in, then all bets may be off)

Just my $0.02 here.   :-/
Red

[Hoist!]

I think you missed Hoist's point.  He's not saying to run the engine with a stock EFI map and SEAC (or equivalent) and freer breathing exhaust pipes under normal operations.  He was just extolling the virtue of the PC, that's it's removable, and therefore undetectable when hooked up to a diagnotics computer when going in for warranty work, vice the SERT, which actually remaps the EFI and leaves it's "mark".   Now the best thing to do in that case is find a dealer, like mine, that will state, in writing preferably, that any exhuast/EFI mods done, as long as it's done by them, won't void the warranty.  That makes the decisions a little easier, IMHO, on what to do then.   (Big caveat here though, I took their guarantee to be that as long as I stayed external of the engine...so if I decided to put cams in, then all bets may be off)

Just my $0.02 here.   :-/
Red

Hey Red, Thanks for saving me the trouble. You hit it on the head! I'm not talking about riding the bike this way. Hell, you can't even ride a bone stocker this way! it don't matter when their closed loop kicks in. It's not set up for us, it's set up for EPA. I'm just talking about meeting all of HD's req'ts so you can have your cake and eat it too. All I need this thing to do is get me to a dealer to fix anything without giving them the ability to blame me or something else on a problem. All I want is mufflers right now anyway, so why not do it in a way that I can keep my 2 Year Warranty too! Believe it or not, there are some of us here that will be happy with that! Hoist!  8-)

[RedDevil]

 ... I can keep my 2 Year Warranty too! Believe it or not, there are some of us here that will be happy with that! Hoist!  8-)

You got that right Hoist...ya got to protect that two year warranty.  In my case it's a seven year warranty  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

[Rhino]

OK OK,

I believe we are all on the same page, just saying it differently...except...IF you have a problem, engine related, AND you were running the invisible PC, AND you removed it and brought the bike in for service with the UNPISSED ON ECM,  AND you were running aftermarket PIPES and EXHAUST and did it per the MOCO blessing as stated... then you SHOULD be OK.

BUT THEN if I read this all right, IF you ran the SERT at the time of the change to aftermarket pipes and exhaust, which BTW makes the engine run SAFER in the AFR range, THEN the WARRANTY is Null and VOID?

UHHUH< That must be  MOCOSENSIBILITY.  

I get it.  MOCO is EPA controlled within.  Yup, bound to happen, just like that new 08 Dyna I saw in the neighborhood the other day with a Suzuki sticker on it so as to confuse me when I saw the radiator and watercooling system.  

[RedDevil]

OK OK,

I believe we are all on the same page, just saying it differently...except...IF you have a problem, engine related, AND you were running the invisible PC, AND you removed it and brought the bike in for service with the UNPISSED ON ECM,  AND you were running aftermarket PIPES and EXHAUST and did it per the MOCO blessing as stated... then you SHOULD be OK.

BUT THEN if I read this all right, IF you ran the SERT at the time of the change to aftermarket pipes and exhaust, which BTW makes the engine run SAFER in the AFR range, THEN the WARRANTY is Null and VOID?

UHHUH< That must be  MOCOSENSIBILITY.  

I get it.  MOCO is EPA controlled within.  Yup, bound to happen, just like that new 08 Dyna I saw in the neighborhood the other day with a Suzuki sticker on it so as to confuse me when I saw the radiator and watercooling system.  

Uh...kinda, sorta, I think   [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=confused5.gif]

[hdfatboy]

Just my $0.02:

I ran my '07 110" SE Ultra in the stock configuration from August 24 to Sept 17 (approx. 1,100 miles) During that time I had it on the dyno at my dealer (after 500 miles) and did a 5th gear roll-on. We discovered a lean condition (15.5 avg) w/ 82.35HP and 98.75 ft-lbs TQ. Definately as previously mentioned (Hoist, Red & Rhino) an EPA set-up. No back firing, no power, lots of heat! Yes, the 110 badge on the rear cylinder did yellow in the first 1K miles.

I then installed the Ness Big Sucker (w/ness filter), V&H True Duals and Ovals with the SERT (and mildly massaged #84 map). The second round of dyno tuning yielded a balanced A/F (13.3 avg.) through mapping each cylinder and balancing the fuel tables (also practiced by others here).  Several iterations and tweaks to the map & bumping the A/F incrementally yielded a peak which we fell off (too rich - back firing & loss of power). We then worked backward until we returned to an appreciable result of 87.28 HP and 110.89 ft-lbs TQ at much cooler temps.

I decided that I wanted a little more. I know it's in there. More HP. However, I was not willing to sacrifice TQ and since my dealer ran a "Black Friday" sale I was inclined to buy a set of Andrews 59HG gear drive cams, S&S valve springs, rollers & pushrods along with swapping out the Ness filter for a K&N wet type and Rinehart stepped true duals. Rineharts for more HP, cams to maintan the torque with the stepped headers and the filter because I should have in the first place. I haven't gotten it finished (first set of cams shipped were for the 88/103 platform so I'm hoping to do so this week and get some miles on it - in the mid-50's this week here in SW PA) Cams done by my myself & the dealer mechanic on the off hours. There was need to releive the cases a bit for clearance. Dyno by the same dealer mechanic who is a HD certified SERT tech. I am expecting (hoping) to achieve 105+HP/110+TQ.

All that being said: I chose the SERT. I know it leaves an indellable fingerprint on the ECM but I know what it's doing - what we told it to do & I don't want to have to strip it down each and every time I go to the dealer which is what I would need to do if I ran a Thundermax, PCIII, Fuel Pak etc. along with pipes, A/C yada, yada, yada. I'm very lucky I suppose. My dealer will honor the warrantee (all seven years + wheels and tires). Keeping in mind that the drivetrain is what we're really talking about. The other side of the warrantee coin is - what happens if I'm in east jabip and it flames out? I guess I'll trailer it back. . . no point in allowing an unfamiliar party to wrench on something I've spent so much time perfecting (perfection in my reality/perception).

Am I chasing a number? NAH. Just chasing the fun . . . In a nutshell, my discoveries are thus:
1) Factory configuration is very lean with a clotted intake & exhaust sytem designed for ozone emission polutant and noise emission polutant control.
2) V&H true duals & ovals (w/ proper EFI mapping and aftermarket A/C) yields a cooler run condition with substantial torque improvement and minimal HP improvement and a nice exhaust note.
3) Cams, Rineharts, and re-mapping should yield further improved HP through a little taller rev limit with maintained TQ - all yet to be verified.
Noise level should also be slightly greater than the V&H (Had the Rineharts on my '03 Ultra & '06 SE Ultra)

The only alternative at this point would be heads (larger valves & better flow) vs. stock and larger/improved EFI. Not certain it's necessary. None of what I did is even remotely necessary (aside from improved A/F mapping) but a whole lotta fun [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]!

[kojak]

Good post. I'm sure you realize you will need to get it retuned on the Dyno with the SERT software after the next set of mods, changing the exhaust alone significantly changes the VE of your engine. If you get the custom map from your shop on a cd, you can get it reloaded most anywhere if needed. From what I have researched, a SERT should be more reliable than a PC3 since you are not adding another electrical component to your EFI system but altering the ECM map itself through the interface module.

[hdfatboy]

Good post. I'm sure you realize you will need to get it retuned on the Dyno with the SERT software after the next set of mods, changing the exhaust alone significantly changes the VE of your engine. If you get the custom map from your shop on a cd, you can get it reloaded most anywhere if needed. From what I have researched, a SERT should be more reliable than a PC3 since you are not adding another electrical component to your EFI system but altering the ECM map itself through the interface module.

As I said:

. . .  Rineharts for more HP, cams to maintan the torque with the stepped headers and the filter because I should have in the first place. I haven't gotten it finished . . .  Dyno by the same dealer mechanic who is a HD certified SERT tech. I am expecting (hoping) to achieve 105+HP/110+TQ.  . .

I am hoping for much improved volumetric efficiency in the swap of the V&H to Rineharts alone let alone the increased lift & duration of the cams! It'll get dynoed before it leaves that's for sure not only to be certain A/F, timing, etc. is on but also to quanitfy what was done [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif].

[Hoist!]

Just my $0.02:

I ran my '07 110" SE Ultra in the stock configuration from August 24 to Sept 17 (approx. 1,100 miles) During that time I had it on the dyno at my dealer (after 500 miles) and did a 5th gear roll-on. We discovered a lean condition (15.5 avg) w/ 82.35HP and 98.75 ft-lbs TQ. Definately as previously mentioned (Hoist, Red & Rhino) an EPA set-up. No back firing, no power, lots of heat! Yes, the 110 badge on the rear cylinder did yellow in the first 1K miles.

I then installed the Ness Big Sucker (w/ness filter), V&H True Duals and Ovals with the SERT (and mildly massaged #84 map). The second round of dyno tuning yielded a balanced A/F (13.3 avg.) through mapping each cylinder and balancing the fuel tables (also practiced by others here).  Several iterations and tweaks to the map & bumping the A/F incrementally yielded a peak which we fell off (too rich - back firing & loss of power). We then worked backward until we returned to an appreciable result of 87.28 HP and 110.89 ft-lbs TQ at much cooler temps.

I decided that I wanted a little more. I know it's in there. More HP. However, I was not willing to sacrifice TQ and since my dealer ran a "Black Friday" sale I was inclined to buy a set of Andrews 59HG gear drive cams, S&S valve springs, rollers & pushrods along with swapping out the Ness filter for a K&N wet type and Rinehart stepped true duals. Rineharts for more HP, cams to maintan the torque with the stepped headers and the filter because I should have in the first place. I haven't gotten it finished (first set of cams shipped were for the 88/103 platform so I'm hoping to do so this week and get some miles on it - in the mid-50's this week here in SW PA) Cams done by my myself & the dealer mechanic on the off hours. There was need to releive the cases a bit for clearance. Dyno by the same dealer mechanic who is a HD certified SERT tech. I am expecting (hoping) to achieve 105+HP/110+TQ.

All that being said: I chose the SERT. I know it leaves an indellable fingerprint on the ECM but I know what it's doing - what we told it to do & I don't want to have to strip it down each and every time I go to the dealer which is what I would need to do if I ran a Thundermax, PCIII, Fuel Pak etc. along with pipes, A/C yada, yada, yada. I'm very lucky I suppose. My dealer will honor the warrantee (all seven years + wheels and tires). Keeping in mind that the drivetrain is what we're really talking about. The other side of the warrantee coin is - what happens if I'm in east jabip and it flames out? I guess I'll trailer it back. . . no point in allowing an unfamiliar party to wrench on something I've spent so much time perfecting (perfection in my reality/perception).

Am I chasing a number? NAH. Just chasing the fun . . . In a nutshell, my discoveries are thus:
1) Factory configuration is very lean with a clotted intake & exhaust sytem designed for ozone emission polutant and noise emission polutant control.
2) V&H true duals & ovals (w/ proper EFI mapping and aftermarket A/C) yields a cooler run condition with substantial torque improvement and minimal HP improvement and a nice exhaust note.
3) Cams, Rineharts, and re-mapping should yield further improved HP through a little taller rev limit with maintained TQ - all yet to be verified.
Noise level should also be slightly greater than the V&H (Had the Rineharts on my '03 Ultra & '06 SE Ultra)

The only alternative at this point would be heads (larger valves & better flow) vs. stock and larger/improved EFI. Not certain it's necessary. None of what I did is even remotely necessary (aside from improved A/F mapping) but a whole lotta fun [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]!

Really excellent post HDFB. I agree with everything you're saying. It must be nice to have a dealer who'll let you do that much work and stand behind it for the extended warranty period. I feel the same way regarding the performance mods too. I am however, taking a slightly different appraoch. Do the work to have it run well. First and foremost. The PC alone is very simple on&off is known to be very reliable. If I get a Wed bike, I don't expect the dealer will ever see my bike. I get a Fri or Mon bike, I can take the PC off for Warranty work. I get a real POS, I have dealer install SERT and move my bed into the place. Admittedly, this approach was simpler when it was only 1 year warranty and carb. There weren't any issues getting the bike fixed. And it was only a year. I'm not having performance mods done by a dealer. So, 85-90HP and 100-110TQ is fine for 2 years. When the time comes, I'll know if it needs anything else and what. There'll also be moretime-proven component choices around then too. Like you said, we're not chasing a number. We just want our bikes to run good and strong so we can ride them the way we like to and enjoy! But you guys already know this. Hoist!  8-)

[kojak]

HDFB, I am not an expert on the internal combustion chamber by any stretch...the way I understand it is if you want to maintain torque at the usable rpm range, changing cams with higher lift/duration without any other engine modifications will lower your corrected compression ratio due to the increased overlap in your valves which will lower torque at lower rpm's. To maintain the torque, you have to increase the compression (different crowns on the pistons etc) to end up at the same corrected compression ratio with the increased overlap as what you had with the original cams. Along with the exhaust, ac, sert, cams etc you will have the best of both worlds!

[UltraPolecat]

 :-/Does this have something to do with covalent bonds? [smiley=nervous.gif]

[hdfatboy]

HDFB, I am not an expert on the internal combustion chamber by any stretch...the way I understand it is if you want to maintain torque at the usable rpm range, changing cams with higher lift/duration without any other engine modifications will lower your corrected compression ratio due to the increased overlap in your valves which will lower torque at lower rpm's. To maintain the torque, you have to increase the compression (different crowns on the pistons etc) to end up at the same corrected compression ratio with the increased overlap as what you had with the original cams. Along with the exhaust, ac, sert, cams etc you will have the best of both worlds!

Plenty of compression to begin with. Got it running last night. And after warm up, strapped it down on the dyno. It makes useable power from approx. 2500RPM and never quits until it hits the rev limiter which we've now bumped to 6600. Unfortunately the dyno computer chit the bed and we never got to completely tune. A/f is set really rich. As soon as they get software re-loaded I'm going back. We'll block out two hours and get it tuned. But for now all I can say is WOW! SERIOUS power SERIOUS torque!!

[kojak]

 :)Good deal! I pick up my bike tomorrow morning. My tech said the SERT did a FANTASTIC job of keeping the AFR right around 13.7 to 1 both steady state and under strong throttle roll-ons! Cant wait. Got 110 ft-lb of torque at 3500 rpm.

[Hoist!]

:)Good deal! I pick up my bike tomorrow morning. My tech said the SERT did a FANTASTIC job of keeping the AFR right around 13.7 to 1 both steady state and under strong throttle roll-ons! Cant wait. Got 110 ft-lb of torque at 3500 rpm.

Hey Kojak, sounds great. Did they Dyno it or just drop the map in?  Let us know how the bike feels now and if you have a permanent grin on now!. Hoist!  8-)

[SilverDawg]

I have finally made the decision on the intake/exhaust for the SERK.  [smiley=banana.gif]

After much research here and on a few other sites, and speaking with the service manager at my store (what a great guy, took the time to explain everything a in a way an idiot like me can understand - he also related his experience so far with both the 110's and both brand of pipes I was considering)

I am officially going with the following (or until you try to change my mind) for the intake/exhaust portion of my mods:

* K & N Filter
* V & H oval slip ons (no TD's)
* SERT

Pretty basic and simple I know, but after Jim ( service manager) walked me through his experience so far with the TD systems on the  1110's, I think I can achieve what I stated in my opening post and save a ton of dough.  They have seen some issues with the RH's ( not bashing, but have heard and read enough to know that I am going a different direction) and even with some of the V & H TD's.   I still love the look of the RH's, but for now, I'll go with the boys from V & H's.  ( I have big shot longs on my Heritage!)

He likes the way the stock headers help the engine function when combined with the proper tuning (not so lean).  He walked me through his experience so far with dyno tuning (spoke about volumetric efficiency tables ) and how he has done 3 110's so far with the SERT and V & H slip ons that are running fantastic.  He also told me dyno tuning varies by each store ( apparently there are many ways to do this, depending upon how many throttle positions one attackes).  He estimated it would take about two hours to do mine, based on what he has seen and done before with similar set-ups to mine.

I can see why my friend highly recommended this shop.  They are actually more of a RH shop than V & H, so I think he is very sincere in his comments, as he could have easlily sold me a whole TD system [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif].  This will save me about $400.   This will help with the cost of the signal and aux. light kits.

[rbmntx]

I can see why my friend highly recommended this shop.

Cobaltman, which shop are you using?  Don't I remember you saying it was Red River HD in Iowa Park?  That's the next thing that's giving me heartburn..., wondering how good the dyno techs are at the local dealerships.

[SilverDawg]

rbmntx,

Yes, that is the one.   The service manager was great.

I plan on taking a ride up there perhaps to get my 10K done on my Heritage, and meet them all in person before my bike gets there.  I checked on their service prices and they are about $40 bucks cheaper than AEHD on the 10K price.

Their new store is done in March.  Although it is over 100 miles away, it makes for a great ride.

[rbmntx]

I plan on taking a ride up there perhaps to get my 10K done on my Heritage, and meet them all in person before my bike gets there.  I checked on their service prices and they are about $40 bucks cheaper than AEHD on the 10K price.

Maybe we could ride up together.  Depending on when you go, I may be ready to have the SERT put put in and have it dyno'ed.

[SilverDawg]

rbmntx,

Did you make up your mind yet on which direction you are going?

[Hoist!]

rbmntx,

Did you make up your mind yet on which direction you are going?

They're all waiting til I report on my S&S's before doing anything! Hoist! 8-)

[RedDevil]

They're all waiting til I report on my S&S's before doing anything! Hoist! 8-)

You haven't got those SPO's on yet???   [smiley=anxious.gif]
Just funnin with ya...I know you're bitin your nails for Sunday....
Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[Hoist!]

You haven't got those SPO's on yet???   [smiley=anxious.gif]
Just funnin with ya...I know you're bitin your nails for Sunday....
Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

Thanks Red. Yeah I will. But I'll still be biting them until the following week waiting til can I put the S&S's and  PC on! My friend's out of town for the week! Oh well, I'll have to ride it stock for a week! Hoist! 8-)

[RedDevil]

Thanks Red. Yeah I will. But I'll still be biting them until the following week waiting til can I put the S&S's and  PC on! My friend's out of town for the week! [highlight]Oh well, I'll have to ride it stock for a week![/highlight] Hoist! 8-)

Damn the bad luck!! [smiley=smartass.gif] I suppose you could always leave it at the dealer until he gets back.   [smiley=rifle.gif]
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[Torqued]

03 SERK in garage V&H Ovals off of the bike. Bought bike new Dec 03 and with the ovals (couldn't get past the unbalanced look of 2-1's).37000 miles later ovals in the corner and Supertrapp 2-1 Super Meg on bike. loved the sound of V&H but couldn't get past the performance gain possible with the other pipes. I just recently got past the looks issue and made the change.

IMHO each rider should consider if  he or she purchased the bike for looks, performance or some of both.There are a lot of great looking and great performing setups out there It all depends on personal likes / dislikes.There is a BUNCH of power sleeping inside that motor of yours just dreaming of getting let out ta bark.

Personally I bought the bike with the thought of 103 CI with a stage 1 and race tunner would be plenty for me and was going to be happy with everything as is. At 12000 miles cam tensioners went south on me and I went with a gear drive(S&S 570)  well that was it for me . Since then I have been absolutly ate up with more, more, more. To me H/P and Torque are like tattoos  Once u get started you always want more.  

My dealer is 100% ok with standing behind the motor with the mods It has on it now. They did all the work and will stand behind it... If I am out in the boondocks somewhere and have a major problem will probabily drag it back home for the fix. A non Issue to me.

[RedDevil]

03 SERK in garage V&H Ovals off of the bike. Bought bike new Dec 03 and with the ovals (couldn't get past the unbalanced look of 2-1's).37000 miles later ovals in the corner and Supertrapp 2-1 Super Meg on bike. loved the sound of V&H but couldn't get past the performance gain possible with the other pipes. I just recently got past the looks issue and made the change.

IMHO each rider should consider if  he or she purchased the bike for looks, performance or some of both.There are a lot of great looking and great performing setups out there It all depends on personal likes / dislikes.There is a BUNCH of power sleeping inside that motor of yours just dreaming of getting let out ta bark.

Personally I bought the bike with the thought of 103 CI with a stage 1 and race tunner would be plenty for me and was going to be happy with everything as is. At 12000 miles cam tensioners went south on me and I went with a gear drive(S&S 570)  well that was it for me . Since then I have been absolutly ate up with more, more, more. To me H/P and Torque are like tattoos  Once u get started you always want more.  

My dealer is 100% ok with standing behind the motor with the mods It has on it now. They did all the work and will stand behind it... If I am out in the boondocks somewhere and have a major problem will probabily drag it back home for the fix. A non Issue to me.

Torqued,
Very well said.  Determining what is most important to the rider is the way each and everyone should go.  I know some manufacturers make the Ghost pipe for a 2-in-1 system, which satisfies the unbalanced look.  I don't think I personally could get used to only one pipe on my bike.  I like the balanced look.  I also love the sound of the V&H ovals...they have the "right sound" for me.  I guess I'm one of those "tweeners", I want my cake and eat it too...performance and looks at the same time, so I guess I have to suffer on one to get the other.  As far as performance goes, this 110 just flat shames my old 88, so that in itself was a major improvement for me.   I know there's more ponies in there, but for now, they'll have to stay in the "stable", maybe as I have the bike longer, and more of the "inner child" comes out of me, I may change the setup to put some of those ponies on the road.  

Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red