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[TonyO77]

Need to replace the cam tensioners on my 2004 103”
I don’t want to do a complete upgrade until after riding season if I don’t have to, what are my best options to replace the factory tensioners?
Any idea what special tools I would need?

[hd-dude]

If you are pulling it apart to change the tensioners it is foolish not to do the upgrade to the hydraulic system as its the same amount of work. You should change the inner and outer cam bearings and lifters as well. For tools you will need the cam bearing installer and remover tools and a press

[TonyO77]

Yeah, I have been doing some research and arrived at the same conclusion, probably going to do eithe S & S cam kit that has everything including cams or SE, haven’t decided yet.

[VRODDAVE]

When I had my 103 SEEG I did an S&S gear drive with 570 cams.   I believe it had 20k when installed and it ran like a champ for 80k following that before I crashed .   Hydraulic or spring tensioner's need to be replaced at regular intervals.   if I remember correctly run out was at .003 of an inch.  It was nice and quiet.

Just food for thought ...

[timo482]

change the cams.. now it needs tuning.. if you want to just do the repair.. either do new shoes and do it again in a couple years, or do the upgrade kit and get the better tensioners and better oil pump.. as soon as you start changing cams then its another several hundred dollars...

its called "mission creep"

[Twolanerider]

It can suck a bit having to hurry up then wait; or in this case tear things down then and only then order parts.  If you're considering going to gear drive that's not a bad idea though.  You really want to know that the runout (eccentricity of the crankshaft) isn't too great for gear drive.  Most of the 103s were ok, but some had a little wobble to them.  HD cranks got much worse shortly thereafter.

The newer cam plate kits with hydraulic tensioners and the newer oil pump are a valid consideration.  Will be a little quieter than gear drive.  You will still need to check the tensioner shoes on occasion.  Those occasions are significantly extended though.  That can even be an excuse to throw a new set of cam bearings at it every few years.  And that system is very tolerant of runout at the crank.  And while it is close to as precise for timing as the gear dive might be of course it's not completely so.  But it's such a minor difference I gave up worrying about that difference years ago and just use the hydraulic upgrade kits whenever anyone I know plies me with beer to work on their bike anymore.

[VRODDAVE]

That's a good point TimO,   I had forgotten about the tuning.  I had also forgot that I already had the Thundermax on the bike because it had the Rineheart true exhaust.   

 And Don,  I wish I lived near you I would keep you in suds that you would never want for beer. I would be your best buddy hahaha    I could learn so much from you.   


Dave

[TonyO77]

I’m going to tear it down, see what it looks like and then make a decision, if the lift is already.530 that’s more than most. Definitely upgrading the oil pump and changing the bearings while I’m in there.
I’m going to change to adjustable pushrods just because it makes any work on the cam chest so much easier (pulling the fuel tank to get to the rocker boxes is my least favorite thing to do even though it’s not hard it’s just a pain in the ass)
So is there a major difference in quality from one brand of cam plate to the other or just a matter of preference?

[Twolanerider]

That's a good point TimO,   I had forgotten about the tuning.  I had also forgot that I already had the Thundermax on the bike because it had the Rineheart true exhaust.   

 And Don,  I wish I lived near you I would keep you in suds that you would never want for beer. I would be your best buddy hahaha    I could learn so much from you.   


Dave

That would be a tough commute but you're always welcome Dave!

Jim is way closer though and he's actually a motorcycle repair rock star.  So you're good either way .

[08glide]

last year when I had warranty work on cam bearing & lifter failure I wanted the cam tensioners replaced(dealer put it back together with 50k & old tensioner shoes). they also put standard cam bearings in when I had specified screaming eagle bearings, s&s lifters. anyway, I made them pull it back out & change tensioner ( shoes is all I wanted changed) H-D will not sell just the nylon shoes. they sell the tensioner, shoes,(pump) as one ( I find out after the fact). if you go with other options (s&s, etc) you can then just order & replace the nylon shoes. this would be my choice if I'd have to do again. JMO

[Twolanerider]

I’m going to tear it down, see what it looks like and then make a decision, if the lift is already.530 that’s more than most. Definitely upgrading the oil pump and changing the bearings while I’m in there.
I’m going to change to adjustable pushrods just because it makes any work on the cam chest so much easier (pulling the fuel tank to get to the rocker boxes is my least favorite thing to do even though it’s not hard it’s just a pain in the ass)
So is there a major difference in quality from one brand of cam plate to the other or just a matter of preference?

Check out HD # 25284-11.  It's plate, pump, and almost everything you'll need.  Really does do a good job of getting the job done.  The kit is fair bit more expensive than when first released but it's still a cost competitive option.

One thought on your tank. If you want to make the relatively easy chore of removing the tank become an incredibly easy chore and something you can do in ten minutes put a little coupler in the crossover line.  Motion Pro offers a small sized coupler that works well but there are many options.  Being able to reach around the tank and just unplug the crossover fuel line without losing fuel makes getting the tank off so easy you'll do it just to polish the tops of the rocker boxes!

[TonyO77]

Outer shoe is worn and pitted BUT not completely gone, haven’t gotten to the rear shoe yet, looks like I caught it in time.
New camplate, lifters and adjustable pushrods are on the way, not changing cams, I’m happy with the performance for now, it will still smoke most newer bikes.
Thanks Twolane, if not for the suggestion to check/ replace them I coulda had a major problem.

[Twolanerider]

Glad you found it with lots of shoe to go.  See a few little chunks and it is hard to trust those shoes with your mileage so good deal you're in there now.  Nicely done. 

I noticed in your inbound parts list you didn't mention cam bearings.  While in that far and with your mileage they should be a strong consideration also.  You need a blind bearing puller and an install tool to manage them though.  If you don't have the tools available let me know.  Drop me mailing address in a PM and I'll loan you what you need.

[Twolanerider]

And....  hopefully you caught this when looking at the cheat sheet for the cam plate kit.  That kit is not complete for installation.  There's a little more you'll need.  The copied text below is from the cam plate kit's instruction sheet:

Installation requires separate purchase of Spacer Kit P/N 25285-08, Cam Service Kit P/N 17045-99D and Drive Gear Retention Kit P/N 25566-06


The "Service Kit" includes the new front bearings (the big ones).  You'll need access to a press to get the cams out and back in.  There's an alignment tool that helps there also; especially with the reassembly.  You can (probably) take your new cam plate, bearings, old cam plate, etc to your local dealer and pay them a half hour's time to swap the parts back and forth as well.  Once again, if you need to borrow something let me know.

[TonyO77]

I ordered everything except the cam retention kit, they were out, including inner cam bearings.
I ordered the tools to do the job( you can never have too many tools).
I don’t see anywhere in the service manual where it says anything about cylinder position when installing the cams again I.e. TDC on compression etc.
So what is the deal? Just align the timing marks on the cams and outer gear?

[Twolanerider]

I ordered everything except the cam retention kit, they were out, including inner cam bearings.
I ordered the tools to do the job( you can never have too many tools).
I don’t see anywhere in the service manual where it says anything about cylinder position when installing the cams again I.e. TDC on compression etc.
So what is the deal? Just align the timing marks on the cams and outer gear?

I'm doing the same (well, as close as it can be) today on an old Evo.  Had got close to fixing a slight rocker box leak and putting a new cam in my old FXR several times since winter.  Now it's finally torn apart.  This strange liquid stuff started dripping off my forehead about a half hour ago so said "to hell with it" and came in until evening .

And, to your query, yes, the cams/gears go back in with the marks lined up.  Cam to cam then gear to gear.  Given the ratio between the two gears if they're right everything else has to be.  And amen on never enough tools. If the bike is a keeper for you you're potentially chasing stouter cams as a winter project in a year or two so you'll be good to go.  Those engines run great stock.  But we're teenage boys and we get bored.

Hopefully your missing bits are a short backorder.  Supply lines are so screwed up too many things are taking way too long.  Will keep my finger crossed you get the missing bits quick.

[TonyO77]

Thanks for the info, I’m use to working on v8s 6s, diesels , equipment and what not.(I’m familiar with almost all combustion/ compression engines except the guts on a twin cam) I wasn’t sure if you had to position the pistons at TDC or what in order to keep it in time, I just assumed you could screw up and have it 180 out like a v8 even if the marks on the cam are aligned

[Sea Biscuit]

For tensioner, I’ve used these and for me, they work great:

https://www.zippersperformance.com/red-shift-dual-piston-tensioners/

[Twolanerider]

For tensioner, I’ve used these and for me, they work great:

https://www.zippersperformance.com/red-shift-dual-piston-tensioners/

Those have come up in discussion before.  When first introduced they had a thread that was nearly as entertaining as the oil threads get to be sometimes.  To the parts themselves though I don't ever remember anyone having an issue with them in service.  But damned they're expensive; and the stock pieces do a good job also. 

[Sea Biscuit]

I’ve had these Zipper tensioners in now for several years. Went into the cam chest last fall to install the Screaming Eagle cam plate and oil pump and had a look at the tensioners and there was no wear whatsoever.

They were also cheaper when I bought them, but like everything else these days prices are up!

[TonyO77]

Got it apart, everything looks good except the shoes(both inner and outer pitted pretty bad) and the oil pump, galling and wear on both the housing and gears but it looks like I caught it in time.

[Twolanerider]

I’ve had these Zipper tensioners in now for several years. Went into the cam chest last fall to install the Screaming Eagle cam plate and oil pump and had a look at the tensioners and there was no wear whatsoever.

They were also cheaper when I bought them, but like everything else these days prices are up!

Just be glad those Zippers tensioners aren't made of OSB or 2x lumber.  If they were the price would be a thousand bucks by now!!

[Twolanerider]

Got it apart, everything looks good except the shoes(both inner and outer pitted pretty bad) and the oil pump, galling and wear on both the housing and gears but it looks like I caught it in time.

You did good Tony.  Yours doesn't look frighteningly bad but it's definitely at the "since I'm in there" stage.  The new oil pump will scavenge a lot better than the stock piece and your hot idle oil pressure will be noticeably better.  Definitely worth doing. 

So what do you think of the little motor you're inside of now compared to what you're used to? They're a surprisingly simple little beast.

[TonyO77]

I like it it’s a good looking piece, I think the bearing tolerances could be a little closer and I assume that’s what it is because the cameras don’t show any visible where on the bosses but it is a great motor I’m seriously thinking about doing camps at some point but for now I’m just laying the groundwork to make it easier when I make that leap

[TonyO77]

I’ve got to admit though since I have an a party I’m really having to fight the urge to go ahead and have it deck or maybe have the heads shade and put new cams in it meanwhile my business partner is watching me work on it and keep saying you know you would like to go faster

[TonyO77]

One thing I will for sure do while I have it apart is check the crank run out and see if the gear drive option is available to me if I should decide to do it

[Twolanerider]

I’ve got to admit though since I have an a party I’m really having to fight the urge to go ahead and have it deck or maybe have the heads shade and put new cams in it meanwhile my business partner is watching me work on it and keep saying you know you would like to go faster

And that's the slippery slope....   


Ok, here goes.  A build of mine on a 103 done in the bike.  No splitting the cases. 

50mm throttle body
You can up the bore size just a bit and get to 107 without making anything too thin.
Good but not dramatic head work
Take the compression to 10.25:1 or just a bit more with combination of pistons and head work and .030 head gasket.  You can live without compression releases in that range.
Mackie's 598 cams or TMans 590 or his 625s or a few others
My best one in that range also had roller rockers, gear drive, etc.  With a tune that was a bit too aggressive really hot weather it was in the high 120s/120s.  Little more forgiving tune for all weather riding and it was 120/120 plus a tiny bit.  All kinds of torque early and low.  Better there with the Mackie 598 than the TMan 625 but I like them both a lot.

But... the 103s run great to begin with.  There are cams that will really wake them nicely as a bolt in without touching anything else.  I'm not a fan of the company but Zipper's 575 cams are really good for this engine as a bolt in.  But you can make a noticeably different animal out of it without splitting the cases.

[TonyO77]

Also, Jim’s USA makes some mighty fine tools, they are worth every penny

[Twolanerider]

Also, Jim’s USA makes some mighty fine tools, they are worth every penny

Never heard a complaint with their tools.  Another good sources is George's.  Often cheaper and he doesn't quibble about warranty issues.  Just an FYI.

https://www.georges-garage.com/

[TonyO77]

Still waiting on parts, they are supposed to be here tomorrow.
Since I’m doing lifters and pushrods, should I fill the lifters with oil and adjust pushrods from there or try to manually set the lash at the valves?

[Twolanerider]

People tend to think about that too hard sometimes Tony.  Just do the obvious.  Submerge the lifters in delicious fresh oil and let them bathe overnight.  They'll be very content that way. 

When it comes time to adjust just make sure the lobes are down.  Then extend the pushrods until you've just removed the lash.  Once you know you're happily touching at both ends then adjust as per the requirements of your pushrods.  The number of turns can vary depending on the threads per inch of the adjustable section of different manufacturers pushrods.

Everyone has adjusted hydraulic lifters on old small block Chevys (haven't they).  Think of it like that.  You're tightening to the point of no slack then adjusting to spec.

If you run out of hands holding multiple wrenches and keeping the pushrod tubes up out of the way get a rubber band and a paper clip.  Use that to hold up the pushrod tube.

[TonyO77]

I ordered the screamin eagle pushrods the instructions seem pretty straight forward.
I’m going to mark the outside of the cams with a sharpie so I can reference the base circle on each without just spinning the back wheel around and around

[Twolanerider]

I ordered the screamin eagle pushrods the instructions seem pretty straight forward.
I’m going to mark the outside of the cams with a sharpie so I can reference the base circle on each without just spinning the back wheel around and around

Or.... if turning the back wheel is a pain in the arse (to me it is) pull the primary cover (if you haven't already).  It's a lot easier and a lot more precise just turning the compensator nut with the tranny in neutral.  Plus while doing that you're close enough to watch pushrods go up and down.

[TonyO77]

I thought about that while I was changing the compensating sprocket but I already put the primary back together.

[TonyO77]

Getting there

[SIKBIRD]

Not saying you did it wrong but my service manual says the punch marks should be lined up…just don’t want you having any issues when you go to fire it up

On second look, they may well line up when they rotate around, idk?

[TonyO77]

Yeah they were lined up when I put them on, I have rotated the engine

[TonyO77]

I also have a question about priming the oil pump before I start the engine. I know on a car or pretty much any other engine do you prime the oil pump before you start it. How would you go about that? Just fill the engine with oil and rotate the back wheel so the pump begins to pump

[Twolanerider]

On an old Evo you could effectively prime the pump (a little).  Nothing you can do in the cam chest on the Twin Cam though.  You could try prefilling the oil filter; but you'll make a mess and lose most of it.  Just be liberal with the assembly lube on all the surfaces.  I use Permatex 81950.  That red chit is your friend.  But that or any of the several comparable products are a must use.  Aside from that just pull the spark plugs and spin it over a bit to be cautious.  They pick up oil very quickly though.  So you'll be fine.

[TonyO77]

What about filling the cam chest with oil, you know pour it in through the lift or more once the cover is on

[Twolanerider]

Would drain through to the sump anyway.  Just be liberal with the assembly lube.  It'll clack a bit on first fire but it'll be fine.  Those gerotor pumps are an idea that's older than any of us here but, shorting of incorrect assembly order, they really can't not work.  You'll be fine.

[TonyO77]

Getting closer

[TonyO77]

And it’s done!
I know I shouldn’t think so, because I only changed the cam plate, pushrods and lifters, but I swear it feels like it has more power.
Thanks for all the info, it made a difference.
Running around 40lbs of oil pressure now.

[Twolanerider]

And it’s done!
I know I shouldn’t think so, because I only changed the cam plate, pushrods and lifters, but I swear it feels like it has more power.
Thanks for all the info, it made a difference.
Running around 40lbs of oil pressure now.

That's good to read.  Glad you got it knocked out.  Getting the original cam bearings, pushrods, and tensioners replaced are very worthwhile services to have done on that engine.  Even if you didn't have the familiarity with the type to be cognizant of them before you don't have to have them in the back of you mind moving forward.  Now you can just ride the bike and know you're good. 

[TonyO77]

So I finally got a chance today to ride the bike, runs great I’m clipping along about 70 and I noticed little drops of moisture on my glasses. I’m thinking it’s condensation somebody’s air conditioner I was on the interstate or I should say a four-lane highway. The further I ride the moron notice the drops on my glasses. I come to a stoplight and I just happened to look down and there’s oil pouring out of the rocker box and I can see part of the rocker cover gasket. So now I’m thinking that the oil pressure has blown the gasket out. I’ll make it to a parking lot and I called my business partner to come pick me up with a trailer. While I’m waiting I’ll start looking at the rocker cover. That’s when I noticed that I have put the rocker cover gasket on upside down on the front cylinder and that’s why it’s leaking oil. So tomorrow I will fix the gasket, I figure it won’t take me but about an hour if that but I’m definitely gonna have to wash all the oil off my bike. But It runs like a champ! And I didn’t lose enough boiled or heard anything it’s still about midway on the dipstick, lesson learned always check your gas gauge before you’re done

[Twolanerider]

Rocker box gaskets are always worth a second or a third look to make sure of orientation.  The bike runs great and you're pleased with it.  Those are the important bits.  Going back in to it one more times is simply an exercise in the gaining of greater familiarity with the machine.

We won't even begin to list the many things I've done wrong (or close to it) over the years.  If all you did was practice a little external lubrication you be in fine shape .

[TonyO77]

So I got the rocker cover gasket fixed riding the bike home decided to run it up I won’t say how fast I was going very fast I slow down I go to hit my back brakes no brakes I’ll look down and see fluid I assume a blown a rear caliper or a brake line. What actually happened is the oil cover blew out don’t know where not sure why any suggestions?

[TonyO77]

I’m thinking I put too much oil in it, I ran it pretty hard earlier today with no problem, added oil before I left for home and it blew oil cap, gotta be overfilled. Or I should say was overfilled, I just washed all the oil from the rocker cover mistake off, now I gotta do it again, probably gonna change the rear brake pads too since they were soaked with oil to the point that the brakes wouldn’t work even at walking speed

[Twolanerider]

Possibly.  Blowing the dipstick is caused by too much crankcase pressure somewhere.  Don't know that I've ever caused it by overfilling the crankcase though. 

Your best best when filling after a change is to leave the dipstick showing a half quart low with the new oil cold.  These bikes are notorious for quickly losing that first half quart anyway.  So just fill it to that point and accept that's probably where it's going to be anyway.

If the problem continues pay close attention to the cylinder head breathers.  Assuming nothing really wonky like an o-ring plugging a breather bolt or some other weirdness the cylinder head breathers are the only other thing you worked on that could suddenly start causing the dipstick tube to blow out.  That's assuming the bike wasn't doing the same thing before you bought it and you'd just not got on it hard enough to find the problem before opening the cam chest.

[Twolanerider]

Just thought of something worth mentioning.  You can check the cylinder head breathers' function without tearing it all back open.  If you have or can make a hollow bolt to screw in to the breather hole in each cylinder you're good to test.

Use something to make a good connection in to a breather hole.  Then suck on it and blow in to it.  If you can suck through it you should not be able to blow through it and vice versa.  Check that at each head.

[TonyO77]

I have had the bike since 2008, in 50k miles this is the first time it’s done it. I have thought over what happened and barring an anomaly like a breather valve failure, it has to be too much oil.
I run up to the rev limiter most times I go through the gears.
I didn’t do anything different except add oil, I think I just put to much in.
We shall see!

[TonyO77]

Put a new oil cap on it, got the rear brakes changed (they were soaked with oil, everything was soaked in oil).
Oil at half way on the dipstick, ran it like I did yesterday, no problems.
I rode about 150 miles or so , bike running great!
So I think I just goofed and put too much oil in it.

[Twolanerider]

That's good news Tony.  Good to read that's all it was.  Now you can get back to riding it like you stole it and just have some fun.