Topic: Will the new 07s kill the value of Pre 07 CVO's ? (Read 10233 times)

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **on:** July 16, 2006, 09:13:56 AM »

As I understand it this forum is for questions pertaining to "General" CVO questions ... My question is ..in your opinion...how will the introduction of the new 07 CVO 110's with the 6 speed affect the resale value of the PRE 07 CVO's ... and why do think that?

Bama

VaEagle · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2006, 10:11:08 AM »

I can see the changes in the 2007s having some effect but since the new CVOs are about $1,500 more expensive and limited edition as usual I think the cost difference will be in the dealer pricing area. Demand will be up maybe so they will add more to the price.
I can invision though that many folks won't pay the inflated price for the 2007 or they won't trust the new 6 speed or engine until "the bugs are worked out". And as some have mentioned the paint schemes for 2007 at least in photos don't leap out and grab you so there is a chance that some like the paint on the earlier bikes (paint problems excluded of course).
So in general I can see where a person would decide an earlier CVO is a better buy compaired to a 2007 but they might love some features of the 2007 if they can even find one.
I would however expect some resale drop in price in a few years once the 2007 upgrades have proven themselves and more standard bikes are out with the 96 and 6 speed. Look at how prices are lower on the SE roadglides with their 95 engine and older fuel injection setup. They are still a great bike but to many seem kind of underpowered or old.

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2006, 10:26:40 AM »

Personally, I don't see it having a dramatic impact on the resale value of the pre-07 models. For one, the paint jobs are not as complex, though they might look better in person than the pictures indicate. Also, the 103 motor is fully capable of making the same power, with a few tweaks here and there, and most people end up tweaking in the long run. The 6 speed is nice, but not a deal breaker for most folks, as it only becomes a real factor at above the legal, or practical, speed limits anyway. Mine cruises fine at 80MPH in 5th. The pre 07 bikes are some beautiful machines, and will hold their own, in my opinion. The same thing was probably asked/wondered about when the Ultra came out last year, and how it would effect the value of the 04/05 SEEG's, and I still see most of them selling for about what the MSRP was new. The SERK's like you have, from what I've seen in the local dealers around B'ham, are also holding their own.

The 07's are going to be great, and I look forward to seeing and reading about them, but I just don't see anything about them which blows away everything that came before. These bikes are hard to come by, and as long as the MOCO does not put them out in numbers greater than the past, they're all going to hold value, and be sought after machines. Just look at how difficult it is to find one now...

Tbone · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2006, 11:18:16 AM »

I think you made some good points TC. I think the paint is the major factor and although I haven't seen one in real life, I think the 07 paint schemes are so much simpler than previous years, they lose that 'custom' look that has been such an attraction on the previous CVO's.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2006, 11:24:38 AM »

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I think you made some good points TC. I think the paint is the major factor and although I haven't seen one in real life, I think the 07 paint schemes are so much simpler than previous years, they lose that 'custom' look that has been such an attraction on the previous CVO's.

If someone is buying for "looks and feel" he'll be a buyer that might be willing to pay a little more for one of the existing bikes; if they supply the look and feel he's after. If someone was interested in the CVO bikes for the larger engine then from that buyer the current crop of bikes just took a major hit. So, as is so so often the case, what it sells for depends on how bad the buyer will still want it.

SBB · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2006, 11:32:40 AM »

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Personally, I don't see it having a dramatic impact on the resale value of the pre-07 models. For one, the paint jobs are not as complex, though they might look better in person than the pictures indicate. Also, the 103 motor is fully capable of making the same power, with a few tweaks here and there, and most people end up tweaking in the long run. The 6 speed is nice, but not a deal breaker for most folks, as it only becomes a real factor at above the legal, or practical, speed limits anyway. Mine cruises fine at 80MPH in 5th. The pre 07 bikes are some beautiful machines, and will hold their own, in my opinion. The same thing was probably asked/wondered about when the Ultra came out last year, and how it would effect the value of the 04/05 SEEG's, and I still see most of them selling for about what the MSRP was new. The SERK's like you have, from what I've seen in the local dealers around B'ham, are also holding their own.

The 07's are going to be great, and I look forward to seeing and reading about them, but I just don't see anything about them which blows away everything that came before. These bikes are hard to come by, and as long as the MOCO does not put them out in numbers greater than the past, they're all going to hold value, and be sought after machines. Just look at how difficult it is to find one now...

I agree with you TCnBham

No different than when the 08's show up with water cooled engines. (just a guess)
Will every 07 be worthless, hell no, it's progress and each year brings new and exciting bikes.
That progress typically doesn't diminish drastically the value of older bikes.
Mileage, appearance and maintenance are the main factors that determine value.
And shame on someone that owns a CVO bike and doesn't maintain or keep up the appearance!
JMHO!

[smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2006, 11:46:52 AM »

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I agree with you TCnBham

No different than when the 08's show up with water cooled engines. (just a guess)
Will every 07 be worthless, hell no, it's progress and each year brings new and exciting bikes.
That progress typically doesn't diminish drastically the value of older bikes.
Mileage, appearance and maintenance are the main factors that determine value.
And shame on someone that owns a CVO bike and doesn't maintain or keep up the appearance!
JMHO!

[smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Wether or not this would be considered "progress" is yet to be seen ... Proof is in the pudden and I think the 103's have proven thier self in most cases ...

Bama

cigarmike · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2006, 11:56:33 AM »

Heres to most of the 110 's blowing up

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2006, 12:13:55 PM »

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Heres to most of the 110 's blowing up

Ohhhhhhh Mike man your COLD LOL .....

Bama

110tHunDer · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2006, 12:25:04 PM »

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Mileage, appearance and maintenance are the main factors that determine value.
And shame on someone that owns a CVO bike and doesn't maintain or keep up the appearance!
JMHO!

[smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

I agree with that. The whole "value" thing is so relative and I believe a super-nice example of any year or model CVO is going to hold its value well, no matter what comes along next. Some day, there will be something with an even bigger engine, 7-speed [smiley=nixweiss.gif] transmission, and automatic butt wiper, but I predict a nice example of these (currently) new '07s will still hold their own in terms of value.

I have to disagree with VAEagle on the Road Glides. They are still bringing a pretty good buck versus their original selling prices of $22,495 (for a 2000 model). In fact, it's hard to find a nice one selling for much less than that today.

VAZHOG · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2006, 12:37:27 PM »

YES , If you keep your current bike for 40 years it will be worth as much as a shovel head is now

Fired00d · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2006, 12:39:22 PM »

Personally I can't see the new bikes hurting resale of pre '07 CVO's. Sure there are new features some to be proven, but most of us that are passionate about our scooters have almost perfected them to the way we want them. The colors on this year CVO’s hasn't reached out and made me have to have one. Larger motor, and six speed transmissions have been available for us if we so desired to acquire them so to me that's not reason enough to want to upgrade.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

cuthbertss · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2006, 04:10:27 PM »

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I agree with that. The whole "value" thing is so relative and I believe a super-nice example of any year or model CVO is going to hold its value well, no matter what comes along next. Some day, there will be something with an even bigger engine, 7-speed [smiley=nixweiss.gif] transmission, and [highlight]automatic butt wiper[/highlight], but I predict a nice example of these (currently) new '07s will still hold their own in terms of value.

I picked one of these up at Sturgis... worth every penny... highly recommend it.. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

jvc58dke · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2006, 10:01:58 PM »

Unfortunately for the 06 owners (particularly the CUSE) I think that their resale will be hurt a bit. On Saturday on my local dealers announced a sale of $5000 off MSRP of any in stock Screamin Eagle bike (see link: http://www.americaneaglehd.com along with other discounts on standard bikes. They have a couple of FatBoys and vRods there.

SE_ULTRA · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2006, 10:12:35 PM »

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Unfortunately for the 06 owners (particularly the CUSE) I think that their resale will be hurt a bit. On Saturday on my local dealers announced a sale of $5000 off MSRP of any in stock Screamin Eagle bike (see link: http://www.americaneaglehd.com along with other discounts on standard bikes. They have a couple of FatBoys and vRods there.

The website says:
Save $2,000 when you purchase a 2006, In-Stock Screamin' Eagle!

...and it does not say off MSRP...so this MAY just bring it down to MSRP

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2006, 10:39:39 PM »

The SE Fatboys and VRODS are the only two bikes I've seen sit on dealer's showroom floor for weeks at a time...they are beautiful bikes, IMO, but slow sellers, at least in my area. So, I don't think the comparison between the potential hit to resale value between them and the CUSE is comparing apples to apples. Every CUSE in Alabama was either sold before it arrived, or within hours of hitting the floor...

The stealers around here ask 2 to 3 K over MSRP for all SE's, so "discounts" may just mean back to where they should have been in the first place, and odds are they wouldn't be having to worry about getting rid of them now.

jvc58dke · « **Reply #16 on:** July 16, 2006, 11:05:06 PM »

I stand corrected on the 2k vs 5k discount. Generally, however, American Eagle doesn't mark up over MSRP to my knowledge, but perhaps they do on CVO's. The only bike I contemplated buying new was an 06 CUSE which I passed up because of the nightmares about paint I read about on this site and I was worried that those issues would hurt resale....

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #17 on:** July 16, 2006, 11:24:15 PM »

I was fortunate and got mine at the very end of the year, after the paint issues were resolved, and I think everyone who has brought it to their dealers attention is at least in line to get new paint, but there's probably several out there who are not members of this site and don't even know they have bad paint. Hopefully, it will just make mine even more valuable!! It really doesn't matter to me, 'cause I'm happy with the bike and plan on keeping her for quite a few years...doens't mean I won't get another one in the basement one of these days though! Two are better than one!!!

The dealer I bought from was MSRP, but they still had an '05 SE Fatboy on the floor, and a SEVROD of the same year. The local dealer here has a Red SEVROD which they have been asking 2K over for, and now it's "marked down" to MSRP. If I could afford it, I'd be in there talking to them.

No offense to those who own either of the bikes mentioned...I think they're beautiful bikes, but the baggers seem to be more in demand.

CVOJOE · « **Reply #18 on:** July 16, 2006, 11:24:55 PM »

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Heres to most of the 110 's blowing up

[smiley=drink.gif] [smiley=worthless.gif]
Yeah, what Mike said, well almost. It could be that these 'ho-hum' colors,etc. will make the prior years increase in value. We'll have to see how the reliability factor is on the new engines.

Joe

HDBIGMAN · « **Reply #19 on:** July 17, 2006, 12:31:46 AM »

Look at how prices are lower on the SE roadglides with their 95 engine and older fuel injection setup. They are still a great bike but to many seem kind of underpowered or old.

My view of the SE Roadglides may be bias but my 01 starts great... runs great... I haven't had any paint or chrome "issues" and it only cost me $114.75 excise tax/registration. After reading about the problems with the newer SEs I don't even want to think about getting a new bike, the 07's look and sound great but I sure wouldn't want to be the first kid on the block to help the factory debug a new engine / transmission not to mention electronice. I will admit the CD changer on the 01's is a worthless piece of chit and a total waste of space.

Fired00d · « **Reply #20 on:** July 17, 2006, 02:04:06 PM »

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.....It really doesn't matter to me, 'cause I'm happy with the bike and plan on keeping her for quite a few years...doens't mean I won't get another one in the basement one of these days though! Two are better than one!!!....

Exactly!!! That's the way I feel about mine. Sure it may not be perfect, but it's perfect for me. So when it comes to resale price for my pumpkin? Priceless!!!!

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

UltraPolecat · « **Reply #21 on:** July 17, 2006, 03:01:35 PM »

Scarcity is part of it. They are making new 07's every day and they are not making any more [smiley=pumpkin.gif].

Also I don't think most of us are trade in regulars. I love my SEUC and will likely have it a good while. When I wear it out, it won't be worth much anyway!

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #22 on:** July 17, 2006, 03:05:12 PM »

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Scarcity is part of it. They are making new 07's every day and they are not making any more [smiley=pumpkin.gif].

Also I don't think most of us are trade in regulars. I love my SEUC and will likely have it a good while. When I wear it out, it won't be worth much anyway!

POLECAT I LIKE YOUR WAY OF THINKING ... THIS 110 STUFF IS LIKE "HEY MY DOG IS BIGGER THEN YOUR DOG" SYNDROME ... I AINT BUYING IN ..I'LL KEEP MY 03 SERK ..THEY AINT MAKING THEM ANYMORE EITHER.

UltraPolecat · « **Reply #23 on:** July 17, 2006, 03:09:34 PM »

No they ain't! And she is a beaut too. Don't see paint on them 07's like that!

Road_Glider · « **Reply #24 on:** July 17, 2006, 04:11:09 PM »

My personal opinion is that the '04 and '05 SEEG will keep their values well since they are beautiful bikes, great paint with excellent detail and have the 103" motors. I see those as a bike that guys who had them and sold them for the "next greatest new thing" will always regret having done so. I see those 2 years of bikes as something every guy would like to have one of them in the garage if they could.

I think the '06 Ultra SE bikes will take a pretty good hit in value because of the 6 speed and the 110 on the '07's even though the '05's had nicer paint schemes in my opinion.

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #25 on:** July 17, 2006, 04:17:48 PM »

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My personal opinion is that the '04 and '05 SEEG will keep their values well since they are beautiful bikes, great paint with excellent detail and have the 103" motors. I see those as a bike that guys who had them and sold them for the "next greatest new thing" will always regret having done so. I see those 2 years of bikes as something every guy would like to have one of them in the garage if they could.

I think the '06 Ultra SE bikes will take a pretty good hit in value because of the 6 speed and the 110 on the '07's even though the '05's had nicer paint schemes in my opinion.

Well GEE WIZZ RG what about the 03's ??

Bama

ace4059 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 17, 2006, 04:29:35 PM »

Quote

I agree with you TCnBham

No different than when the 08's show up with water cooled engines. (just a guess)
Will every 07 be worthless, hell no, it's progress and each year brings new and exciting bikes.
That progress typically doesn't diminish drastically the value of older bikes.
Mileage, appearance and maintenance are the main factors that determine value.
And shame on someone that owns a CVO bike and doesn't maintain or keep up the appearance!
JMHO!

[smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

And shame on someone that owns a CVO bike and doesn't put the miles on it. These things are made to ride, not just to look at!

arcticdude · « **Reply #27 on:** July 17, 2006, 04:51:10 PM »

There's 2 CUSE's on ebay now, one is up to $30k (2004 miles, aut hz) and the other is at $24k (1301 miles, blk). Neither have met reserve. I think I'd take $30k if someone offered it for mine at 3300 miles.

kng103 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 18, 2006, 11:08:45 AM »

the 2007 models probably won't hurt the resale of the cvo bikes, and might even help the resale on bikes with big bore kits and strokers.
but the plain old twinky 88 will definitely suffer.
not as bad as the evo. but it will suffer just the same.
i bet the moco sells more big bore kits this year, then any other previous.
remember, not only hd has these big new motors now. the jap cruisers have been bigger for a while now. and all of the custom bikes have at least
107's or bigger. granted that most of them are evos.
who wants to buy a used 2005 road king with 2500 miles for 15-16k with a stock 88, when for a little more, you get a 96" brand new with a warranty?

Ceej · « **Reply #29 on:** July 18, 2006, 11:51:45 PM »

Exactly what I was thinking Re: the 88's. I hope my 04 [smiley=pumpkin.gif] holds its own, no, I know mine holds its own just like most of us here would against the Moco 110's. Curious to see what the actual TQ #'s are - they are saying 105-115 at the crank right? weren't they saying about 100 at the crank when the 103 RK came out? The only difference is now it could get harder to get mods and upgrades to these things with the new EPA rules, and with the aftermarket guys thinking this new 96" base motor is just a temp thing til the liquids come out - they may limit development. Heck gonna make gettin a basic 88 cheap for a guy that wants to hop up to say 124" and no 07 will catch that puppy 6 speeds or no. BTW - did they keep the heated seats? Another good example is the 05 v 06 fatboys. I'd go for the 6 tire setup in a heartbeat. The Cuse may take a lil hit but still its what grabs you, for me its the pumpkin followed closely by the autumn haze - to each his own. Gotta wonder about the 06 88's in stock, I would be pissed if I just bought a street glide last month, seriously pissed! Where's that old trade in value gaurantee harley had at one time in the 80's - for the sportsters i believe... Heck if you just got a Street Glide in May you may just now be making the first payment and found out your bikes value just plummeted!

Tonys · « **Reply #30 on:** July 19, 2006, 09:28:00 AM »

I don't think our value will go down...I think it will go up...here's the deal..you can't put gear drive cams in the 07's...like they 06 dyna engine...some California dealers are getting BIG fines for doing performance work...anything that is not street legal. Pipes have to have catalyst etc. Yes you can put big bore kit in. The dealers in the area have stopped doing slip ons, downloads etc. as of yesterday. I think it makes our bikes worth more..

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #31 on:** July 19, 2006, 11:06:55 AM »

Tony according to what a HD Tech told me this morning is that they can not remove any exhaust from the 07's due to the EPA junk ..also that HDMC has not sent them any MAP downloads and he does not expect them to ... so it would appear when you purchase an 07 ...you get what you see performance wise and sound wise unless you want to bite the bullet and go into the engine .... he also told me the new 96's are not that impressive performance wise and a 95 kit in a 88 with blow it away ..also the only time you will realize the value of the 6 speed is at speeds over 80 ....he went on to tell me that now that they are building so many bikes that he has seen the quality drop off a good bit in the last two years ...

Bama

Puzzled · « **Reply #32 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:42:42 PM »

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you can't put gear drive cams in the 07's....

As of yet. I'll say by Christmas there will be cams available. Just my opinion. The dealers may not touch the bikes but I believe the better Indy shops will do well.

Puzzled · « **Reply #33 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:50:48 PM »

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Tony according to what a HD Tech told me this morning is that they can not remove any exhaust from the 07's due to the EPA junk ..also that HDMC has not sent them any MAP downloads and he does not expect them to ... so it would appear when you purchase an 07 ...you get what you see performance wise and sound wise unless you want to bite the bullet and go into the engine .... he also told me the new 96's are not that impressive performance wise and a 95 kit in a 88 with blow it away ..also the only time you will realize the value of the 6 speed is at speeds over 80 ....he went on to tell me that now that they are building so many bikes that he has seen the quality drop off a good bit in the last two years ...

Bama

That is one techs opinion. My opinion is HD will not let those who are willing to upgrade slip away. We'll see something going on here soon. If the dealers won't or are unwilling to touch them the Indy's will. What about the dealers who do a lot of aftermarket work using non SE stuff? I don't forsee them turning down work.

In reference to the new motor, it is a long(er) stroke small bore motor. I feel that once the bore is opened up that will change the motor. You guys know how your 103's feel. The 96" is only a few hours away from a 103".

6 speeds work better with more power and as you stated higher speeds. I'd like to know how the new 07's compare to the Dyna's and SE versions. Are they the same or different?

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #34 on:** July 19, 2006, 01:17:28 PM »

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That is one techs opinion. My opinion is HD will not let those who are willing to upgrade slip away. We'll see something going on here soon. If the dealers won't or are unwilling to touch them the Indy's will. What about the dealers who do a lot of aftermarket work using non SE stuff? I don't forsee them turning down work.

In reference to the new motor, it is a long(er) stroke small bore motor. I feel that once the bore is opened up that will change the motor. You guys know how your 103's feel. The 96" is only a few hours away from a 103".

6 speeds work better with more power and as you stated higher speeds. I'd like to know how the new 07's compare to the Dyna's and SE versions. Are they the same or different?

Puz all I am stating is what I have been told ... as I understand it its NOT that HD would not want to do the upgrades its that if they do it voids the warranty and they are also subject to big fines by EPA ... just passing it on what Ive heard for better or worse... you may be right it might just all be a matter of time ..but if the Indy's do it ..it might void the warranty as well ...

Bama

Puzzled · « **Reply #35 on:** July 19, 2006, 01:37:12 PM »

My post wasn't intended to sound harsh, as it may have.

The word warranty scares a lot of people. The Magnusson Moss act protects us the end user from such idle threats/claims. I'd have no problem cutting up an 07 the moment it arrived in my garage.

Now the EPA on the other hand "sounds" a little more intimidating. However I feel that is a joke also. Who is enforcing the so called rules/laws? Surely not the local guys. I do understand that a dealer would not want to put themselves in a bad position with anyone, EPA, HD etc. (other than the end user, us)

I have yet to see anything in writing on my states or the EPA's letter head telling me I can and can't do this or that with my bike. I may sound like I'm on my soap box buy actually I'm not. I hear the EPA/HD threads and conversations so often that I'm trying to get people to stand up and look at this stuff a little differently. When the original EPA stuff was spread on the internet about the one custom built bike in a lifetime I nearly fell over laughing. Again who is enforcing it? My local DMV could care less. Bring them my money is about their only care.

Build what you want and if your dealer won't do it find a Indy who will. Do you think Zippers is sweating it? They'll have performance kits out in no time and if your dealer won't install it they will.

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #36 on:** July 19, 2006, 01:52:58 PM »

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My post wasn't intended to sound harsh, as it may have.

Build what you want and if your dealer won't do it find a Indy who will. Do you think Zippers is sweating it? They'll have performance kits out in no time and if your dealer won't install it they will.

Puz again my friend you may be right ...but assuming your friendly local Stealer agrred to swap out your exhaust on your new 07 ...or even an Indy did it for you ...if HDMC does not provide a MAP downlaod to tune with ...what do you have?

Bama

arcticdude · « **Reply #37 on:** July 19, 2006, 02:00:32 PM »

The 110 has it's torque peak at 3000 rpm, not the 4000 rpm of the 103. That's a significant difference and why the 6 spd in the 110 will work MUCH better than a 6 in the 103. The 103 needs to spin, where the 110 doesn't. Certainly the moco won't allow the aftermarket industry to take anything away from them. But, they're certainly smart enough to allow the aftermarket to do the R&D, see what sells, then make their own version of it. This year's new parts catalog has pocketed lowers box covers, like the aftermarket has had for a couple of years now. You want a small cover that you can pack small and take it with you?- well now you don't have to go aftermarket anymore, there it is in black and orange with a script HD on it. Packs up about the size of a rain suit. The new parts catalog is almost 1/3 as thick as the true full P&A catalog. Which is kind of like t&a, costs about the same, but just doesn't b!tch as much!! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

Puzzled · « **Reply #38 on:** July 19, 2006, 04:16:18 PM »

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Puz again my friend you may be right ...but assuming your friendly local Stealer agrred to swap out your exhaust on your new 07 ...or even an Indy did it for you ...if HDMC does not provide a MAP downlaod to tune with ...what do you have?

Bama

Very good point. I as most do not know enough about the new bikes yet to determine what it is using for a computer.

Twolanerider · « **Reply #39 on:** July 19, 2006, 05:21:15 PM »

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it its NOT that HD would not want to do the upgrades its that if they do it voids the warranty and they are also subject to big fines by EPA ...
Bama

Those are two entirely separate issues. The warranty is Harley's to void or maintain. EPA restrictions are something else. The latter is driving the concern leading to what the tech might have thought when speaking to you (whether he knew it or not).

Fired00d · « **Reply #40 on:** July 19, 2006, 07:36:28 PM »

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Those are two entirely separate issues. The warranty is Harley's to void or maintain. EPA restrictions are something else. The latter is driving the concern leading to what the tech might have thought when speaking to you (whether he knew it or not).

The fine from EPA for exhaust modification...

$25K if dealer modifies them on '07 bikes.
$5K if owner modifies them on '07 bikes.

Who's going to enforce, who knows? What end user/owner will be concerned about it, who knows? Bottom line the law is there and someday, someone may get a wild hair up there you know what and want to enforce it. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

grc · « **Reply #41 on:** July 19, 2006, 07:43:11 PM »

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Puz again my friend you may be right ...but assuming your friendly local Stealer agrred to swap out your exhaust on your new 07 ...or even an Indy did it for you ...if HDMC does not provide a MAP downlaod to tune with ...what do you have?

Bama

Just conjecture here, but I expect you will still have the Power Commander as an option. The '06 Dyna has the closed loop system, and DynoJet makes a PC for it (I believe they have to bypass the O² sensors). There is also the entire ECM replacement from various aftermarket sources as well. Unless / until the EPA also shuts down the aftermarket folks, there will always be a way to get where you want to go. Just ask the car guys who are still doing performance mods.

Jerry

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #42 on:** July 19, 2006, 08:18:15 PM »

Jerry I was talking about the new 07s ..not the 06's

Bama

UltraPolecat · « **Reply #43 on:** July 19, 2006, 09:11:02 PM »

I am obviously ignorant of the law here but why are the '07s different from any prior year as far as doing performance, and emissions modifications? [smiley=nervous.gif]

Fired00d · « **Reply #44 on:** July 19, 2006, 09:15:19 PM »

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I am obviously ignorant of the law here but why are the '07s different from any prior year as far as doing performance, and emissions modifications? [smiley=nervous.gif]

It's not the bikes that are the significant difference it's the new laws that the EPA has come out with. If I remember correctly they are making emission control more inline w/what California has now, and I believe before it's all over with they will be stricter then California is now.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

UltraPolecat · « **Reply #45 on:** July 19, 2006, 09:23:54 PM »

So I assume from your response that they will only effect the models going forward and is not retroactive to 06 and prior? So we are safe from future "enforcement"?

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #46 on:** July 19, 2006, 09:27:12 PM »

Quote

So I assume from your response that they will only effect the models going forward and is not retroactive to 06 and prior? So we are safe from future "enforcement"?

LOL ...hell Polecat who am I to say who's safe and whos not ..like I said earlier all Im reporting are the things Ive been told from some Harley techs ...take it for what its worth my friend ..

Bama

UltraPolecat · « **Reply #47 on:** July 19, 2006, 09:30:50 PM »

You are so right! When it comes to our government, THEY don't even know what they are going to do. I fight with OSHA, EPA, City Govt, etc on a regular basis. I'm sure these guys are no different.

MYCVO · « **Reply #48 on:** July 19, 2006, 09:59:17 PM »

Personally if the resale value of my bike is affected it won't mean much at all to me--cause mine is mine and thats how it will stay! If I want one of the newer models I'll get one of those and keep this one as well! If I'm understanding all that I'm hearing the bigger power plants will also be much more difficult to modify with the inspections that will be made to them- greatly affecting what exhaust system is used, what engine mods that can gotten away with so forth and so on. JMO
MYCVO

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #49 on:** July 19, 2006, 10:08:43 PM »

Quote

Personally if the resale value of my bike is affected it won't mean much at all to me--cause mine is mine and thats how it will stay! If I want one of the newer models I'll get one of those and keep this one as well! If I'm understanding all that I'm hearing the bigger power plants will also be much more difficult to modify with the inspections that will be made to them- greatly affecting what exhaust system is used, what engine mods that can gotten away with so forth and so on. JMO
MYCVO

HERE HERE MYCVO very well said ... based on what I have read and been told from Harley employees Ive come to the conclusion that the 07's big engines and the six speed will be offset but the pre 07's versatility ... Im sure that enitally there may be some drop in value but in the long run it may be a blessing to us that own the "obsolete" models ...they will NEVER make these again ....

Bama

Fired00d · « **Reply #50 on:** July 19, 2006, 10:11:29 PM »

Quote

So I assume from your response that they will only effect the models going forward and is not retroactive to 06 and prior? So we are safe from future "enforcement"?

Funny you should mention this. Today when I was visiting a H-D dealer we were discussing the '07's and the fact that modifying the exhaust would be taboo. He mentioned that he had told all of his customers that had modified there '06's to keep their old exhaust. He was thinking there might be problems down the road, but was hoping they would be grandfathered in and they wouldn't have anything to worry about. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

Tbone · « **Reply #51 on:** July 19, 2006, 10:16:22 PM »

Quote

Personally if the resale value of my bike is affected it won't mean much at all to me--cause mine is mine and thats how it will stay! If I want one of the newer models I'll get one of those and keep this one as well! If I'm understanding all that I'm hearing the bigger power plants will also be much more difficult to modify with the inspections that will be made to them- greatly affecting what exhaust system is used, what engine mods that can gotten away with so forth and so on. JMO
MYCVO

I'm with you MYCVO, my addiction started with my first H-D in 03 and I haven't parted with one yet!

MYCVO · « **Reply #52 on:** July 19, 2006, 10:16:30 PM »

Quote

HERE HERE MYCVO very well said ... based on what I have read and been told from Harley employees Ive come to the conclusion that the 07's big engines and the six speed will be offset but the pre 07's versatility ... Im sure that enitally there may be some drop in value but in the long run it may be a blessing to us that own the "obsolete" models ...they will NEVER make these again ....

Bama

No Chit there Bama!! AND that's a good tihng!

MYCVO · « **Reply #53 on:** July 19, 2006, 10:19:09 PM »

Quote

I'm with you MYCVO, my addiction started with my first H-D in 03 and I haven't parted with one yet!

Me I only let go of my Heritage BUT it went to my brother and we ride together all the time so, it's still with me and I get to see it now from a different view.

MYCVO · « **Reply #54 on:** July 19, 2006, 10:27:51 PM »

Quote

Funny you should mention this. Today when I was visiting a H-D dealer we were discussing the '07's and the fact that modifying the exhaust would be taboo. He mentioned that he had told all of his customers that had modified there '06's to keep their old exhaust. He was thinking there might be problems down the road, but was hoping they would be grandfathered in and they wouldn't have anything to worry about. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

dood,
I was at bike night tonight and 3 buddies I've not seen since before Laconia came in, all 3 with 06 Streetglides, there were all saying the same thing ( glad to get theirs before they were gone cause all the 07 models were going to be WAY Taboo to modify exhaust or to alter the performance of the motors) unless the don't care about swapping all the work back just to get an inspection every year.

Fired00d · « **Reply #55 on:** July 19, 2006, 10:55:30 PM »

Quote

Personally if the resale value of my bike is affected it won't mean much at all to me--cause mine is mine and thats how it will stay! If I want one of the newer models I'll get one of those and keep this one as well!....MYCVO

Mark,
Same here. I can't at this moment think of anything that would want me to get rid of my Pumpkin. In other words my bike is "Priceless".

I've put to much work into getting it just the way I want it.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

grc · « **Reply #56 on:** July 19, 2006, 11:04:02 PM »

Quote

Jerry I was talking about the new 07s ..not the 06's

Bama

Bama,

So was I, I just used the '06 Dyna as an example since it had pretty much everything that's on the '07's except the new displacement. Same new overdriven primary and 6 speed, new engine and trans cases to eliminate external oil lines, new automatic tensioner for the primary, new cams/cam plate/tensioners/oil pump, [highlight]closed loop (O² sensors) engine management[/highlight], etc. It had only been on the market a few months before the PowerCommander folks had a PC available for it, and I expect you will see one for the '07 models very shortly.

Harley will most likely only have a limited number of upgrade options, such as the big bore kits, for which they will provide EPA approved calibration downloads. All other modifications will have to be made with aftermarket parts and aftermarket tuning aids, just like it's been in the automotive world for the last 26+ years. I still say do what you want, but be smart enough to keep all the original parts just in case your state decides to start doing emissions testing. And do us all a favor by going with reasonable pipes that don't set off car alarms and rattle windows. If you're going to break the law, you don't need to advertise the fact to the surrounding county or invite complaints from the citizenry and scrutiny from the authorities. JMHO

Jerry

Fired00d · « **Reply #57 on:** July 19, 2006, 11:22:49 PM »

Quote

.....I still say do what you want, but be smart enough to keep all the original parts just in case your state decides to start doing emissions testing. And do us all a favor by going with reasonable pipes that don't set off car alarms and rattle windows. If you're going to break the law, you don't need to advertise the fact to the surrounding county or invite complaints from the citizenry and scrutiny from the authorities. JMHO

Jerry

Very good points here. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] The problem that we are having now has been partly if not entirely bought on by ourselves.

We need to be more observant of our actions, and police ourselves so "big brotha" doesn't do it for us. We need to get the public on our side, and not against us for disturbing them. I'd be the first to admit I love the sound of a free flowing exhaust, but I wouldn't want to impose that sound in the middle of the night on my neighbors.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

MYCVO · « **Reply #58 on:** July 19, 2006, 11:50:11 PM »

Quote

Mark,
Same here. I can't at this moment think of anything that would want me to get rid of my Pumpkin. In other words my bike is "Priceless". I've put to much work into getting it just the way I want it.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

No question about that---It shows!

BobD · « **Reply #59 on:** July 22, 2006, 01:13:48 PM »

Quote

The fine from EPA for exhaust modification...

$25K if dealer modifies them on '07 bikes.
$5K if owner modifies them on '07 bikes.

Who's going to enforce, who knows? What end user/owner will be concerned about it, who knows? Bottom line the law is there and someday, someone may get a wild hair up there you know what and want to enforce it. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Just came from the local dealer this morning where I had my CUSE serviced. Talking to the service manager I now know who's going to be the biggest enforcer - Harley Davidson. He told me Harley laid down the law at the dealer meeting. Absolutely no mods to the engine, drive train or exhaust on "07's. Penalty - loss of dealer contract. They're serious about this and are going to make dealers follow the rules. Penalty to the owner or an '07 - loss of warranty if a bike is found to be non-conforming. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Fired00d · « **Reply #60 on:** July 22, 2006, 02:11:25 PM »

That is some serious stuff there. [smiley=nervous.gif] Hearing stuff likes this makes my '04 more appealing by the minute. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #61 on:** July 22, 2006, 02:24:36 PM »

Quote

Just came from the local dealer this morning where I had my CUSE serviced. Talking to the service manager I now know who's going to be the biggest enforcer - Harley Davidson. He told me Harley laid down the law at the dealer meeting. Absolutely no mods to the engine, drive train or exhaust on "07's. Penalty - loss of dealer contract. They're serious about this and are going to make dealers follow the rules. Penalty to the owner or an '07 - loss of warranty if a bike is found to be non-conforming. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

BINGO! ......

Bama

grc · « **Reply #62 on:** July 22, 2006, 02:52:32 PM »

Quote

Just came from the local dealer this morning where I had my CUSE serviced. Talking to the service manager I now know who's going to be the biggest enforcer - Harley Davidson. He told me Harley laid down the law at the dealer meeting. Absolutely no mods to the engine, drive train or exhaust on "07's. Penalty - loss of dealer contract. They're serious about this and are going to make dealers follow the rules. [highlight]Penalty to the owner or an '07 - loss of warranty if a bike is found to be non-conforming.[/highlight] [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

I can't wait to see how they plan to administer that. Time to get a good attorney on retainer folks. I can see it now, you have a trans or electrical problem and some yo-yo will tell you your warranty is void because you have aftermarket pipes. Actually, you won't even need a good attorney to win that one.

Jerry

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #63 on:** July 22, 2006, 02:57:27 PM »

Quote

I can't wait to see how they plan to administer that. Time to get a good attorney on retainer folks. I can see it now, you have a trans or electrical problem and some yo-yo will tell you your warranty is void because you have aftermarket pipes. Actually, you won't even need a good attorney to win that one.

Jerry

Jerry if HDMC will not provide a MAP download to your local dealer what good will it do you change put the mufflers or exhaust?

Bama

grc · « **Reply #64 on:** July 22, 2006, 03:25:51 PM »

Quote

Jerry if HDMC will not provide a MAP download to your local dealer what good will it do you change put the mufflers or exhaust?

Bama

Bama,

I doubt that Power Commanders will disappear, or the complete ECM replacements. Where there is a will (and a potential profit), there is a way.

Jerry

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #65 on:** July 22, 2006, 03:38:19 PM »

Quote

Bama,

I doubt that Power Commanders will disappear, or the complete ECM replacements. Where there is a will (and a potential profit), there is a way.

Jerry

Ahhhhh but then were back to square one ..if you make the changes ...then take the bike in for any warranty work ... TROUBLE !

Bama

Fired00d · « **Reply #66 on:** July 22, 2006, 06:11:06 PM »

Quote

Ahhhhh but then were back to square one ..if you make the changes ...then take the bike in for any warranty work ... TROUBLE !

Bama

What we may see happening is owners waiting until factory warranty is up before making mods to there bikes. This may in turn hurt the extended warranty market, and dealers may potentially loose one of their revenue sources. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

ace4059 · « **Reply #67 on:** July 22, 2006, 10:07:26 PM »

My local dealer has just gotten an '06 SE Fatboy in yellow/purple and is asking MSRP. They got it from a dealer up north where it sat unsold since Oct. '05.

I went to a dealership in Dallas today, they had one '06 Fatboy in yelow/purple and one '05 FB in red/black and one '05 FB in silver/grey all at $2000 off MSRP (all SE's) and all are new . I asked the salesman if they had any '07 SE Ultras available and he said they were getting a black/orange next week but it is sold. He said if I wanted one they would be getting several more and he would get me one. I asked him what they were selling the SE ultras for and he said $2k over MSRP (plus freight and dealer prep) I told him "no thanks" since I already have one on order from my local dealer at MSRP.

PHAZE · « **Reply #68 on:** July 22, 2006, 10:47:21 PM »

My bike is at my local dealership now. I'm planning to have them install the D and D Fatcats, the HD SERT, and put the K&N filter element on the bike. They are going to dyno tune the bike. I've been discussing this with the service department for about a week now. They have not mentioned any mandates from MOCO regarding the '06 bikes. If '07 owners find out that their dealers can't modify their bikes, they may wish that they had '06s. This could help the '06 bikes hold their value.

Fired00d · « **Reply #69 on:** July 22, 2006, 11:12:46 PM »

Quote

.....If '07 owners find out that their dealers can't modify their bikes, they may wish that they had '06s. This could help the '06 bikes hold their value.

I would think this would help all the pre-'07 bikes. I think the number of people that buy Harley's and don't do at least a muffler upgrade are few and far between. The verdict is still out on whether what I/We have been hearing about the exhaust on the '07's having the traditional Harley sound. We will just have to keep our fingers crossed and wait until we can hear for ourselves.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #70 on:** July 22, 2006, 11:56:04 PM »

Quote

I would think this would help all the pre-'07 bikes. I think the number of people that buy Harley's and don't do at least a muffler upgrade are few and far between. The verdict is still out on whether what I/We have been hearing about the exhaust on the '07's having the traditional Harley sound. We will just have to keep our fingers crossed and wait until we can hear for ourselves.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

I think you're right about most people at least doing an exhaust mod on their bike. I'm thinking HD has done a lot of R&D on these new exhausts they're offering up this year to get some kind of compromise that people can live with, at least for the initial warranty period, then it'll be wide open again. But for those who choose to get extended warranties, they've got problems.

Jerry....not to say that they will be able to void all aspects of the warranty, but they could really make it hard on a fella if ANYTHING happened to the motor which could remotely be related to a mod to the A/F mix, combustion process, etc. Plus, if you tried to fight them on it, they could always call in the Feds and get you fined, which would probably cost more than the repair if you just paid for it. Catch 22, anyone? At any rate, it sounds like the dealers won't be tinkering with any of the '07's for anyone. Right now, I'm glad I've got an '06 with the mods made by the dealer and an extended warranty they have to honor. The next year will be an interesting one, it seems. [smiley=nervous.gif]

PHAZE · « **Reply #71 on:** July 23, 2006, 07:39:56 AM »

I bought my first HD in '03 and it seems that this warranty thing has always been a question that dealers dance around. You know that they want the money for doing the modifications and you hear things like "if we do the work, we're gonna take care of ya."

I'm more concerned about being out of town and pulling into a dealership regarding a problem. I was talking to the GM at our local dealership yesterday and he said that there are dealers that won't touch a bike if it has exhaust mods. How long has HD had crossed racing flags and the notes about street use in their parts catalog? I've never seen any touring bike races advertised on the Speed Channel. You know the MOCO and the dealers want the money. I think the EPA thing is driving new attitudes and concerns. Having an older bike might be a good thing.

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #72 on:** July 23, 2006, 07:47:25 AM »

Quote

I I think the EPA thing is driving new attitudes and concerns. Having an older bike might be a good thing.

AMEN Phase AMEN !

Bama

Fired00d · « **Reply #73 on:** July 23, 2006, 09:07:29 AM »

Quote

.......I'm more concerned about being out of town and pulling into a dealership regarding a problem. I was talking to the GM at our local dealership yesterday and he said that there are dealers that won't touch a bike if it has exhaust mods......

I can understand if you are having problems with the exhaust that have been modified/installed by another dealer, but let’s say you are having problems with your stator. Having changed your exhaust has no significance in the stator going bad (at least that I can think of), and if the dealer is refusing to work on your bike because of this they are not the dealer I want working on my bike anyway. To add to that I would think there could be some legal action one could take against that dealership if a person was so inclined. It's going to take a dealer telling the right person this chit, and that person is going to get a good lawyer and break it off in that dealer.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

UltraPolecat · « **Reply #74 on:** July 23, 2006, 09:17:19 AM »

Hey D00d!

Wouldn't it be a shame if it all came to that. We ride these beasts because we love them and NOT so we can get involved in outside BS like lawsuits. We deal with enough of that in our REAL life. As for me, I just want to ride! [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

Fired00d · « **Reply #75 on:** July 23, 2006, 09:46:07 AM »

It would be a shame.

Like you all I want to do is ride, but one can only take getting stepped on so many times before he decides enough is enough.

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

UltraPolecat · « **Reply #76 on:** July 23, 2006, 10:10:52 AM »

Agreed D00d. I am like a junkyard dog when cornered,

[smiley=sauer021.gif] [smiley=rifle.gif]

but at my advancing age I would rather just enjoy life. I suspect we as a group are the wrong guys to mess with...

Midnight Rider · « **Reply #77 on:** July 23, 2006, 11:44:04 AM »

I really don't think the pre 07's are going to be an issue, at least not with reputable dealers. But, it really sounds like they're getting serious about changes to the 07 models. They're only offering the SE Pro pipes like I have on mine for one more year, and they will not put them on an 07 from what I've heard, even if somebody wanted to. Honestly, I hope all the guys who are getting the 07's with the new pipes they have, new engine, etc are happy as pigs in the sunshine with the bikes, just as they come off the showroom floor....sound, performance, and paint. And yes, some will have aftermarket mods done, and for those warranty issues which have nothing to do with those mods, they will have to fix 'em free. But, I think if they have an issue related to those things I mentioned in the earlier post, there's going to be problems, not necessarily from the dealer, but when they submit the work for authorization/payment, there may be issues with the MOCO for sure. The dealers are going to be caught between a rock and a hard place.

Garznhogs · « **Reply #78 on:** July 23, 2006, 02:58:20 PM »

Talking with my dealer this week: He said there were no demo rides at the intro show... he heard that there was a muffler issue. They did have 06 and 07 bikes to start and idle, but no rides. This week he rode a brand new 07 96" and said now he knows why... the mufflers have a hard to describe sound, sort of 'tinny' when cruising. He didn't like it and figured lots of folks will continue to change them out. The parts manager said the new SERTS will have 07 on them. Neither one had much info regarding mods to the SEs.
Just like 'what will the new bikes be' question, there sure are a lot of different rumors flying!
(The parts manager also told me that the latest version of the SERT is the 'F'. I said my disc has 'G' on it and he didn't understand what I was talking about. So....) [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

Garz

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #79 on:** July 23, 2006, 03:06:31 PM »

Quote

I really don't think the pre 07's are going to be an issue, at least not with reputable dealers. But, it really sounds like they're getting serious about changes to the 07 models. They're only offering the SE Pro pipes like I have on mine for one more year, and they will not put them on an 07 from what I've heard, even if somebody wanted to. Honestly, I hope all the guys who are getting the 07's with the new pipes they have, new engine, etc are happy as pigs in the sunshine with the bikes, just as they come off the showroom floor....sound, performance, and paint. And yes, some will have aftermarket mods done, and for those warranty issues which have nothing to do with those mods, they will have to fix 'em free. But, I think if they have an issue related to those things I mentioned in the earlier post, there's going to be problems, not necessarily from the dealer, but when they submit the work for authorization/payment, there may be issues with the MOCO for sure. The dealers are going to be caught between a rock and a hard place.

Man all I can say is that at this point I feel better and better EVERY day about my 03 SERK ....

Bama

Pap · « **Reply #80 on:** July 23, 2006, 04:15:04 PM »

I've been to alot of HD dealerships in my years and can't recall one single one where employees and owners didn't ride bikes with most of them being relatively new models and with modified exhausts. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] I suggest we watch what these owners and employees are doing to their own '07's as an indicator of how they'll react to the new EPA regs.

Ride Safe,
Pap

Twolanerider · « **Reply #81 on:** July 23, 2006, 04:21:39 PM »

Quote

I said my disc has 'G' on it and he didn't understand what I was talking about. So....) [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

Garz

There's a "G" disc buried under stuff here on my desk that I know is at least two months old.

arcticdude · « **Reply #82 on:** July 23, 2006, 04:43:17 PM »

I don't think I'd put too much stock in ANYBODY that states you can't even change exhaust on a Harley. The moco themselves already have 110 kits for the 96 (okay, they're just the SE stuff packaged for the "everyday" rider) and there are SE slipon mufflers for the 07's already listed. There's way too much $ in the aftermarket for the gov't to completely shut it down. Think back to 1973-74. Weren't the cars we were driving all big POS's and they didn't get too much better until the mid 80's. Now there's horsepower wars going on. Not just cars, but trucks too. Personally, if somebody told me that you couldn't do anything to a Harley, I'd be looking to sell some swampland because I'd found a buyer.

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #83 on:** July 29, 2006, 08:27:37 PM »

Quote

I don't think I'd put too much stock in ANYBODY that states you can't even change exhaust on a Harley. The moco themselves already have 110 kits for the 96 (okay, they're just the SE stuff packaged for the "everyday" rider) and there are SE slipon mufflers for the 07's already listed. There's way too much $ in the aftermarket for the gov't to completely shut it down. Think back to 1973-74. Weren't the cars we were driving all big POS's and they didn't get too much better until the mid 80's. Now there's horsepower wars going on. Not just cars, but trucks too. Personally, if somebody told me that you couldn't do anything to a Harley, I'd be looking to sell some swampland because I'd found a buyer.

Cat I guess only time will tell

Bama

Ceej · « **Reply #84 on:** July 29, 2006, 09:46:58 PM »

This is a whole new EPA deal - unrelated to any car rules. These rules came about as the result of a deal the EPA made to avoid getting sued for some failure to crackdown on dirt bikes I believe. When the enviromentalists threatened the case the made a deal to drop the suit in exchange for harsher rules in 2007 on ALL motorcycles that would prevent ANY modification to an EPA approved bike. This means ANY modification that would change the performance or work load on the bike - example - swap stock wheel and tire to a "fat" tire - adds work load to bike, violates EPA rules - Period. These rules would never fly with the public or automakers if implemented on cars, but then again they are way cleaner to begin with. Being honest - our bikes are old technology and something like 20 times more polluting than current cars, this is what the whole lawsuit was about 4 or 5 years ago and lead to this. They knew there wasn't enough power in the biker world to put up a fight and it was all tied in with rules on bikes, snowmobiles and ATV's on state and federal lands. Notice all the new "clean" snowmobiles out there today, same story. In the trucking world we have a 2007 mandate coming down also, the new trucks are costing $10-15K more than last year due to the cleaner engines(and the run hotter, and get poorer fuel milage), and you diesel pick drivers will notice the fuel is changing this fall from low sulfur to ultra low sulfur - start adding a fuel treatment as the sulfur was a big lubricater for our injectors. Anyhow, the truckers have no voice like the bikers, so the government can pass the rules knowing the general public dont care. Anyone find a shop that will put straight pipes on your street car lately, not a chance. This is just a rule on one car part, the same thing now applies to any 07-later bike, and there will be enforcement at HD dealers as well as indy shops. It could go as far as the trucking world - any work done on my rig has paperwork filed showing the vehicles VIN number as well as the wrenches license # and shops license #. All recorded and filed. Makes me thinks HD has planned for this and pushed more and more shops into becoming the "Mall" style Gift shops they have become. More Chrome & Clothes - Less wrenching.

ace4059 · « **Reply #85 on:** July 30, 2006, 03:11:11 AM »

Quote

I think you're right about most people at least doing an exhaust mod on their bike. I'm thinking HD has done a lot of R&D on these new exhausts they're offering up this year to get some kind of compromise that people can live with, at least for the initial warranty period, then it'll be wide open again. But for those who choose to get extended warranties, they've got problems.

Jerry....not to say that they will be able to void all aspects of the warranty, but they could really make it hard on a fella if ANYTHING happened to the motor which could remotely be related to a mod to the A/F mix, combustion process, etc. Plus, if you tried to fight them on it, they could always call in the Feds and get you fined, which would probably cost more than the repair if you just paid for it. Catch 22, anyone? At any rate, it sounds like the dealers won't be tinkering with any of the '07's for anyone. Right now, I'm glad I've got an '06 with the mods made by the dealer and an extended warranty they have to honor. The next year will be an interesting one, it seems. [smiley=nervous.gif]

I'M NOT SO SURE THEY HAVE TO HONOR THE WARRANTY ON YOUR '06. JUST LOOK AT THE PROBLEM "PORTHOLE" HAD WITH HIS WARRANTY BECAUSE HE HAD A SERT. I DONT THINK ANYONE IS SAFE NOW DAYS WHEN IT COMES TO MODS AND WARRANTY ISSUES. YOU HAVE TO DECIDE TO KEEP IT STOCK UNTIL YOUR WARRANTY EXPIRES OR SAY WHAT THE HECK, I'M GOING TO CHANCE IT AND GO W/ THE MODS AND IF SOMETHING HAPPENS AND THEY WON'T HONOR MY WARRANTY TO HECK W/ EM!

Steve_G · « **Reply #86 on:** August 03, 2006, 12:51:09 PM »

What did the evo engines do to the value of shovels? What did the twin-cam do to the value of evos? Personally I am not feeling good about buying an '06 USE for a premium price, then having the thing obsoleted. There are quite a few people who have tossed their 5 speed tranny and spent big bucks to get a 6 speed. There are also quite a few people who have changed cams to get increased reliability and more power. Time will tell if the new cam drive system is "the ticket". However, I think Harley must have spent some R&D time and money before switching to the new system. Who would rather have a 103 than a 110 in. engine? It's not just the increase in displacement, but a whole host of changes that I'm pretty sure will be for the better. You can keep sinking money into trying to catch up to the new changes, but financially you're just digging a hole. -That is unless you're so in love with your bike that you plan on keeping it forever. That was my plan until I see what they have done with the new bikes. Now I think I'll just sit back and see how the '07s work out in the next year. If they are as good as I think they are, I'll probably trade for one in '08.
  I do agree that the paint schemes are not as artful for the '07s. I still think the small leather tour packs should be replaced with color matched king tour packs. -After all, these are supposed to be their top of the line touring bikes.
  No doubt the changes with the new bikes will be another reason why the stealers will be offering you less on a trade in- saying "everybody wants the 6 speed and the bigger engine".
  Oh well, everything goes to hell eventually, it's just a matter of time. You can slow it's decent somewhat with chrome polish and 3M Imperial Handglaze along with microfiber cloths! [smiley=drink.gif] [smiley=drink.gif]

-Steve

kng103 · « **Reply #87 on:** August 03, 2006, 01:02:42 PM »

Quote

What did the evo engines do to the value of shovels? What did the twin-cam do to the value of evos? Personally I am not feeling good about buying an '06 USE for a premium price, then having the thing obsoleted. There are quite a few people who have tossed their 5 speed tranny and spent big bucks to get a 6 speed. There are also quite a few people who have changed cams to get increased reliability and more power. Time will tell if the new cam drive system is "the ticket". However, I think Harley must have spent some R&D time and money before switching to the new system. Who would rather have a 103 than a 110 in. engine? It's not just the increase in displacement, but a whole host of changes that I'm pretty sure will be for the better. You can keep sinking money into trying to catch up to the new changes, but financially you're just digging a hole. -That is unless you're so in love with your bike that you plan on keeping it forever. That was my plan until I see what they have done with the new bikes. Now I think I'll just sit back and see how the '07s work out in the next year. If they are as good as I think they are, I'll probably trade for one in '08.
  I do agree that the paint schemes are not as artful for the '07s. I still think the small leather tour packs should be replaced with color matched king tour packs. -After all, these are supposed to be their top of the line touring bikes.
  No doubt the changes with the new bikes will be another reason why the stealers will be offering you less on a trade in- saying "everybody wants the 6 speed and the bigger engine".
  Oh well, everything goes to hell eventually, it's just a matter of time. You can slow it's decent somewhat with chrome polish and 3M Imperial Handglaze along with microfiber cloths! [smiley=drink.gif] [smiley=drink.gif] -Steve

if its true what they are saying about mods to the 2007's
then i'll take a 103 any day of the week!!
i am sure that most of our 103's will smoke that 110"
i know mine will!!!!
and if and when i get tired of my 103 i'll do the jims 120"

SPIDERMAN · « **Reply #88 on:** August 03, 2006, 01:21:12 PM »

IMO The value of any Harley-Davidson motorcycle is relative to the performance, popularity and availability of the particular model in question. I don't believe that as new technology is introduced it adversely affects the value of the older bikes in and of itself. Obviously, and again IMO an 07 SEUC would be greatly desireable over an 06. That's because you've got an almost apples for apples situation in the two years with the 07 having the 110 and 6 speed as well as some other smalller differences. But the 110/6 speed equations would not affect a stock 06 UC and I don't honestly believe the 95" motor in an 07 stock UC over the 88" in the 06 is that big a deal. The upgrade from an 88" to a 95" is not that expensive. I am not sure how the issue of modications is going to shake itself out. The initial reports seem to indicate that from 07 on, you buy an H-D and leave it as is if you want to retain your warranty. If that does prove to be the case, then I would think that pre 07 model years would hold their value better since 90% of all H-D owners end up swapping out pipes, intake, and various other performance items. Personally, I am not going to buy another new H-D until the factory produces a water cooled touring bike. AND, whatever that bike ends up being, I will leave it stock and happily so. I will probably end up having two or more different motors for Elvis and let that ride be my fix for my need to mess with chit. LOL As I said on another post, I am pleased with the 07 model lineup. Back in the 30's H-D produced an 80" motor. For 60 years that was as big as it got. Then from 99 to 07 we've gone all the way to 110. I think the MoCo is doing well, balancing tradition with the need to compete with ever changing technology their competitors put on the street. The only thing I wish they'd do is let you order a bike set-up the way you want it vice buying it one way and investing a bunch more money in changing it. Imagine if you could start with a basic model, go through the catalogue and order paint, chrome, motor, trans etc in the configuration you wanted. Now there's something to dream about.

Adios
Big B

kazumdgc · « **Reply #89 on:** August 07, 2006, 11:53:15 AM »

Just a note, after I made the deposit on my 07, the sales guy told me the service manager got word from the owner to add true duals, and about 5K in additional bling to the bike. Thank God I had it before they did their stuff or it would have been 45K- needless to say I think they will sell pipes do what ever to make a buck. I could be wrong but.... time will tell.
Later

Fired00d · « **Reply #90 on:** August 07, 2006, 12:35:24 PM »

Quote

.....add true duals, and about 5K in additional bling to the bike......

I'd better warn you now then, don't hang around here. You will end up doing/putting at least that much on your bike that “came from the factory w/everything you ever thought you would want on a bike”. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

If you don't believe me you can ask some of the other members or I can show you my spreadsheet of P&A I've added and still have/want to add. [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

HWYMAN1 · « **Reply #91 on:** August 07, 2006, 05:46:18 PM »

Of course everyone will have their opinions on this. However, the 2007 may effect the sale of year end 2006 ( esp. if want bigger engines and six speed), but the overall value of the 06 103" and its resale worth are determined as a baseline in blue book worth. The value in dollars and desirabilty are not the same thing. The dollar value today and 10 years from now has a constant based on the above ( although hopefully one can recoup above this but its value should be no lower than this!). As evidenced by a guy who came up to me this weekend at dealer and was looking at 06 black crimson ( selling at list) but was not sure he if should wait for 07 because of engine and tranny. So the debate over worth vs. desirability is up to the individual, but the reality there is no bad choice! Both great bikes and fun to ride for anyone who owns them, john ( my opinion and we all know what that is worth and what it is like!)

jfscheck · « **Reply #92 on:** August 14, 2006, 09:44:57 PM »

Yea - for some reason the Fatboys and V-rod's just never sold like I think the Motor Co thought they would...

Touring bikes - no way to get one of them...

arcticdude · « **Reply #93 on:** August 14, 2006, 11:25:58 PM »

Well, here's one company already stepping up to the plate. D&D with an 07 exhaust, complete with O2 ports.

http://www.danddexhaust.com/news/2006/08/flh_fat_cat.htm

sponserv · « **Reply #94 on:** August 15, 2006, 02:22:29 AM »

its very simple.....the guys who can afford SE bikes are old guys like us. We want touring bikes to ride not FatBoys and Dueces to bar hop.

txfatboy · « **Reply #95 on:** August 16, 2006, 09:58:18 AM »

I have to agree. (although I do not "bar-hop", or drink & ride) I am 37, had a 01 fatboy that was totalled. I was having a hard time deciding between the "old man's bike" or the "i'm not ready for the old man's bike." The touring bike has LOTS more to offer, for very little price difference than the fatboy. I just felt that I was not ready for a touring model yet. I chose the fatboy because I had the extra money from totalled 01 bike. I still had to put up a 15K dollar difference, but when you add up all you get on the SE package, I felt it was worth it. Most guys my age would have gone with a stock fatboy over the SE package. Age plays a factor...didn't I hear that the average age of people going to Sturgis is somewhere between 42-45 yrs old? Not sure on that, just thought I heard it somewhere.

flyingwillie · « **Reply #96 on:** August 16, 2006, 07:10:33 PM »

Hi, a newbie here....just got home from taking my cvo electra glide in for service (bad cruise control module)....they had 2 new cvo's...a road king and a springer. Interesting that the road king had a chrome and black engine and the springer had the usual chrom and powder coated engine. Both looked great, particularly because all the oil lines, etc are now hidden. Paint job, was indeed, less complex but still attractive. I bought my two tone cherry 05 electra glide because I fell in love with the color and design. If the new ones result in greater depreciation so be it. I love this one ...my 9th Harley, even though it is not particularly comfortable compared to my 03 road king classic I just sold.
I intend to enjoy the cvo regardless of what it ends up costing me. I normally change bikes every 3 years so maybe an 08 when they get all the bugs fixed with the new cvo
Where in bama.....from cullman originally

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #97 on:** August 16, 2006, 07:31:28 PM »

Willie welcome to the forum ... I live in Huntsville ... and I agree about the comfort of the Road King ...Ive owned this 03 CVO SERK for about 3 months and the more I look at it close the more I LOVE the paint ...

Bama

ace4059 · « **Reply #98 on:** August 16, 2006, 09:59:01 PM »

Quote

its very simple.....the guys who can afford SE bikes are [highlight]old guys [/highlight]like us. We want touring bikes to ride not FatBoys and Dueces to bar hop.

So much nicer than say: "OLD FARTS"

ultrafxr · « **Reply #99 on:** August 17, 2006, 08:47:30 PM »

Well, I thought not much but I've changed my mind for the short term at least. My dealer tells me that he has fielded nothing but calls from folks with very late model bikes wanting to trade for the '07 (not necessarily CVOs) due to the bigger engine and six speed. And he said that the moco pushed 100 2006 CUSEs out to dealers AFTER the 2007s were released. They are now having to discount these '06s to around 29k to 30k to move them. Thought I might trade my 'melon for an '07 but I won't give it away. Things will settle down after a while and we'll see.

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #100 on:** August 18, 2006, 01:35:13 PM »

We should know with in a week just how much the pre 07s have depreciated when the Sept. NADA books comes out ... will be interesting.

Bama

ultrafxr · « **Reply #101 on:** August 18, 2006, 02:26:09 PM »

I think things will settle out after a couple months when the excitement and initial buying fever has broken. Things are just a little to crazy right now.

PHAZE · « **Reply #102 on:** August 18, 2006, 04:34:47 PM »

We'll just be part of the problem if we drop the prices on our bikes to go for new machines. None of us will take a hit on our bikes unless we sell them. Don't go out and buy the '07s and the stealers will be forced to keep their prices in line. I've been checking around some and have been quoted everything from MSRP to $5,000.00 over. I'd go a little over MSRP for the right CVO. I don't know if I'd ever buy another non-CVO Harley, but if I did, it would have to be discounted and I've talked with a few folks that have gotten $500.00 off MSRP on '06 bikes before the '07 introductions.

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #103 on:** August 18, 2006, 04:39:28 PM »

I think we could take our 103's to a 110 and add a six speed tranny for a lot less then it would cost most of us to trade for an 07 and STILL have a better looking and sounding bike.

dd

Fired00d · « **Reply #104 on:** August 18, 2006, 05:47:45 PM »

Quote

....I've been checking around some and have been quoted everything from MSRP to $5,000.00 over. I'd go a little over MSRP for the right CVO. I don't know if I'd ever buy another non-CVO Harley, but if I did, it would have to be discounted and I've talked with a few folks that have gotten $500.00 off MSRP on '06 bikes before the '07 introductions.

I will not pay over MSRP for any scooter!!! I would rather drive several hours get the bike at my price then pay some "stealer" absorbent prices because they think they got me by the balls. I normally don't like to use that word, but dealers that are ripping people off by selling scooters at outrageous prices are nothing other then "stealers".

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

Fired00d · « **Reply #105 on:** August 18, 2006, 05:57:19 PM »

Quote

I think we could take our 103's to a 110 and add a six speed tranny for a lot less then it would cost most of us to trade for an 07 and STILL have a better looking and sounding bike.

dd

There will always be something coming out faster/better each year that's the way of technology and improvements. I'm not the one to "keep up w/the Jones’s", and tend to stay happy w/a vehicle and enjoy it for several years (normally keep cars 10 years before getting new one, and scooters 5 years).

Granted I don't put a lot of miles on a vehicle (own a 2000 Yukon with 39k on it that I purchased new, and have half that many miles on my scooter in 2 years), but I think unless something terrible happens vehicles should last longer then a couple of years. Maybe in a previous life I was an accountant and I'm just frugal w/my money, but I just don't see the reason to upgrade every couple of years. [smiley=confused5.gif] On top of that I haven't finished this project ( [smiley=pumpkin.gif]) of all the upgrades I have in store for it. Maybe I'm not at the stage in my life where I have unlimited "disposable funds" to do this, and if I did maybe I would change my attitude. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #106 on:** August 18, 2006, 06:06:08 PM »

Quote

I will not pay over MSRP for any scooter!!! I would rather drive several hours get the bike at my price then pay some "stealer" absorbent prices because they think they got me by the balls. I normally don't like to use that word, but dealers that are ripping people off by selling scooters at outrageous prices are nothing other then "stealers".

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

dood I agree with you to a point but let me ask a question ...why is it that a lot of dealers get away with asking those absorbent prices ... and do you not think that it is because a lot of these dealers sell their bikes WAY over MSRP that it helps on the resale on OUR bikes ... just asking here ... if the dealers started selling the bikes at $1000.00 UNDER MSRP would you not think that would hurt the resale of used Harley's?

Fired00d · « **Reply #107 on:** August 18, 2006, 06:09:51 PM »

Quote

dood I agree with you to a point but let me ask a question ...why is it that a lot of dealers get away with asking those absorbent prices ... and do you not think that it is because a lot of these dealers sell their bikes WAY over MSRP that it helps on the resale on OUR bikes ... just asking here ... if the dealers started selling the bikes at $1000.00 UNDER MSRP would you not think that would hurt the resale of used Harley's?

Are resale prices not based on NADA, rather then what you paid for them? If you pay an absorbent price in the beginning you just going to get screwed more when you resell it, right? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #108 on:** August 18, 2006, 06:14:42 PM »

Quote

Are resale prices not based on NADA, rather then what you paid for them? If you pay an absorbent price in the beginning you just going to get screwed more when you resell it, right? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

dood if you look close enough at NADA it will tell you that the bike can be worth up to 40% more then the retail value shown depending on condition ..accessories..and the market area you are in ...also if you look at the cover of NADA is says that is a "Guide" ...

Bama

Fired00d · « **Reply #109 on:** August 18, 2006, 06:20:29 PM »

Quote

dood if you look close enough at NADA it will tell you that the bike can be worth up to 40% more then the retail value shown depending on condition ..accessories..and the market area you are in ...also if you look at the cover of NADA is says that is a "Guide" ...

Bama

True to all of the above, but nothing says that you will get more because you were ripped off on the initial purchase? [smiley=nixweiss.gif] If this was an across the board thing and everyone was doing it then it may influence resale price, but as long as some dealers aren't trying to rip you off on initial price it's going to be hard pressed to get that money back on resale. JMHO

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #110 on:** August 18, 2006, 06:35:22 PM »

Quote

True to all of the above, but nothing says that you will get more because you were ripped off on the initial purchase? [smiley=nixweiss.gif] If this was an across the board thing and everyone was doing it then it may influence resale price, but as long as some dealers aren't trying to rip you off on initial price it's going to be hard pressed to get that money back on resale. JMHO

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

dood I like to buy as cheap as anyone but if I go into a store and purchase an item that is for sell without being preasured to do it ...no matter WHAT I paid for it how can it be a "rip off" ... I can always turn around and leave .... I suppose that term kind of rubs me the wrong way after 25 years in the car business and several years with Harley ..I have NEVER held a gun on anyone to make them pay my price for the product I was selling ... ripped off ?? ........... if you get "ripped off" the only person you have to blame is yourself ... JMO

Bama

hd-dude · « **Reply #111 on:** August 18, 2006, 06:39:57 PM »

Quote

dood I like to buy as cheap as anyone but if I go into a store and purchase an item that is for sell without being preasured to do it ...no matter WHAT I paid for it how can it be a "rip off" ... I can always turn around and leave .... I suppose that term kind of rubs me the wrong way after 25 years in the car business and several years with Harley ..I have NEVER held a gun on anyone to make them pay my price for the product I was selling ... ripped off ?? ........... if you get "ripped off" the only person you have to blame is yourself ... JMO

Bama

Well Said! [smiley=drink.gif]

Fired00d · « **Reply #112 on:** August 18, 2006, 06:42:35 PM »

Quote

dood I like to buy as cheap as anyone but if I go into a store and purchase an item that is for sell without being preasured to do it ...no matter WHAT I paid for it how can it be a "rip off" ... I can always turn around and leave .... I suppose that term kind of rubs me the wrong way after 25 years in the car business and several years with Harley ..I have NEVER held a gun on anyone to make them pay my price for the product I was selling ... ripped off ?? ........... if you get "ripped off" the only person you have to blame is yourself ... JMO

Bama

Maybe I could have used another (better, more PC

) term then ripped off as I agree with your statement as far as the buyer doing it to himself. In my previous post I stated that I would travel several miles to get bike at MSRP if local dealer wouldn't sell it to me at that price. The point I'm trying to make is I don't think that because some dealers are charging/getting more then MSRP that it will have influence on resale price as long as some dealers are selling them at/below MSRP. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #113 on:** August 18, 2006, 06:52:26 PM »

Quote

Maybe I could have used another (better, more PC ) term then ripped off as I agree with your statement as far as the buyer doing it to himself. In my previous post I stated that I would travel several miles to get bike at MSRP if local dealer wouldn't sell it to me at that price. The point I'm trying to make is I don't think that because some dealers are charging/getting more then MSRP that it will have influence on resale price as long as some dealers are selling them at/below MSRP. [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

dood your point is well taken but let me give you an example ... when I was a lowly Toyota salesman back in the mid 70's we were charging $MSRP + $750 for a $50.00 wax job but called it TechTor ...and sold them as fast as we could get them off the carriers ..and the resale of Toyota was EXTREAMLY high ....for YEARS dealers in the southeasten US sold these cars for over MSRP thus keeping the resale on the used product very high ...however as we got into the mid to late 80's and started building the Toyota's here and more and more came available the dealers started cutting one anothers throat to get rid of inventory ...Toyota became a car whore ....and the resale value dropped ....ecconomics 101 supply and demand ...I know your a smart guy but just making a point ... I can assure that the price a new bike is sold for will effect the resale of a used bike down the road ...do I want to pay more then MSRP no ... do I blame the dealer for getting all he can again no ...I can remember back in the late 70's through the mid 80's when HD almost went bankrupt ... a lot of the dealers in THIS area went out of business ...the ones that held on did it by the skin of their teeth and I am sure when they were having to almost GIVE thier Harley's away not many cutomers cared enough to offer them an additional $500.00 profit to help them stay in business .... Im sure most cutomers took advantage of thier misfortune ..I know I DID ....just a thought to ponder

Bama

Fired00d · « **Reply #114 on:** August 18, 2006, 07:07:00 PM »

Quote

dood your point is well taken but let me give you an example ... when I was a lowly Toyota salesman back in the mid 70's we were charging $MSRP + $750 for a $50.00 wax job but called it TechTor ...and sold them as fast as we could get them off the carriers ..and the resale of Toyota was EXTREAMLY high ....for YEARS dealers in the southeasten US sold these cars for over invoice thus keeping the resale on the used product very high ...however as we got into the mid to late 80's and started building the Toyota's here and more and more came available the dealers started cutting one anothers throat to get rid of inventory ...Toyota became a car whore ....and the resale value dropped ....ecconomics 101 supply and demand ...I know your a smart guy but just making a point ... I can assure that the price a new bike is sold for will effect the resale of a used bike down the road ...

Bama

Using the above scenario wouldn't the way the MoCo is mass-producing more scooters each year, and adding more CVO lines and more units of each model make the resale of recent models go down? [smiley=nixweiss.gif] I understand what your saying and see your point, but realistically I can't see it happening. However your background in the industry is definitely not something to take lightly concerning your theory and because of that if I were betting I would tend to bet on the information you are giving. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] But there is still that little piece in the back of my mind that is harboring some reluctance to accept it whole-heartedly. :-/

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

kazumdgc · « **Reply #115 on:** August 18, 2006, 07:56:35 PM »

when I was dumb not that i can claim that problem has left me i paid way more than MSRP in Dallas only to find out how i got %^$#ed.

Now i will pay what I feel is fare.

grc · « **Reply #116 on:** August 19, 2006, 08:48:35 AM »

Quote

dood your point is well taken but let me give you an example ... when I was a lowly Toyota salesman back in the mid 70's [highlight]we were charging $MSRP + $750 for a $50.00 wax job but called it TechTor[/highlight] ...and sold them as fast as we could get them off the carriers ..and the resale of Toyota was EXTREAMLY high ....for YEARS dealers in the southeasten US sold these cars for over MSRP thus keeping the resale on the used product very high ...however as we got into the mid to late 80's and started building the Toyota's here and more and more came available the dealers started cutting one anothers throat to get rid of inventory ...Toyota became a car whore ....and the resale value dropped ....[highlight]ecconomics 101 supply and demand [/highlight]...I know your a smart guy but just making a point ... I can assure that the price a new bike is sold for will effect the resale of a used bike down the road ...do I want to pay more then MSRP no ... do I blame the dealer for getting all he can again no ...I can remember back in the late 70's through the mid 80's when HD almost went bankrupt ... a lot of the dealers in THIS area went out of business ...the ones that held on did it by the skin of their teeth and I am sure when they were having to almost GIVE thier Harley's away not many cutomers cared enough to offer them an additional $500.00 profit to help them stay in business .... Im sure most cutomers took advantage of thier misfortune ..I know I DID ....just a thought to ponder

Bama

I really should stay out of this discussion, but what the heck. Bama, the supply and demand argument is right on the money. Back in the '70's, when the first big oil shocks hit and we had gas shortages resulting in rationing plus surges in prices, people were trading their expensive full-size American cars for the Toyota's, Honda's, and Datsun's at a huge financial loss. Much of this was extremely ill-advised, since the amount of money lost in the trade could never be recouped in fuel cost savings. But for those who needed to travel and couldn't buy enough fuel due to the even-odd rationing system, etc., it became a necessary evil. This is the one event that started the transformation of the Japanese car industry from a tiny player to the powerhouse you see today. Dealers at that time were easily getting 1k to 2k over MSRP, and giving less than 50 cents on the dollar for the trades. This is a true application of the supply and demand theory. However, the marketing practices that took root and bloomed during this period, such as the "$750 Paint Protection Package, $500 Interior Protection Package", etc. were just blatant rip-offs which mislead the customer. If you want to charge more due to market conditions, or just because you're greedy, then be up front and honest about it. Some dealers avoided the misleading protection package BS and just added an honest statement to the sticker, such as "additional dealer markup". As a salesman, I'd rather try to explain that one to a customer as opposed to lying about the benefits of the $20 wax job I was charging him $750 for, or the quick spritz of Scotchgard for $500.

Jerry

beerman · « **Reply #117 on:** August 20, 2006, 10:38:50 AM »

Since I ordered a new 07 SE Springer and wouldn't have considered a 06 after I heard about 110/6 speeds I guess I feel that yes, 07 will hurt the 06 and older models a little bit
Imagine it's about 2011 and you're trying to sell your used 2006 SEFBoy with an ad in the paper....some idiot is going to call and ask if it's the 103 or the 110? and is it the 5 or 6 speed? And when you say 105/5 they'll go "oh"
Like a lot of you guys, I've been riding HD for over 30 years, since my 74 sportster days and I've sold a few bikes over that time. Try selling a Shovel after the EVO's came out. or a Iron Sporty after the EVO/Sportsters .Not easy. Try selling your 400 HP Z06 Corvette now that the new ones are 500 HP - sorry wrong board !!!
Supply and demand will dictate pricing more than 103 vs 110 though.
As to Old guys wanting comfort !!! Heck, I was looking to buy a Bobber for around low 20's when I first heard the CVO's were coming out with a Springer with a 110/6 sp......end of story....it's the best "buy" in Custom bikes on the planet right now. Big inches, 6 gears, lots of Chrome, Great paint, and a Warranty ......Sorry Big Dogs/Texas Choppers/etc.....I test road the SE Sprg at Sturgis and was blown away. If I can't change the pipes.....I think can can live with it
BTW - I really appreciate the opinions and advise I have gleened off this site....can't wait to get my bike....until then I'm cruising around on a 1997 Her Sprg with a set of Knuckle Mufflers and a SE airbox...oh baby...58 HP at the RW !!!!! Yeah....I have to really hang on !!!

ace4059 · « **Reply #118 on:** August 20, 2006, 02:01:36 PM »

I think we all get too hung up on resale value and what our bikes will be worth down the road. To me, my bike is not an investment. If I wanted to invest my money I would by stocks, real estate, etc. I buy a bike to ride. I bought the CVO because I like the look, power, features and charisma it has. I plan on riding the piss out of it. When and if I sell it, the market will dictate what it is worth. In the time being I am not going to worry about how much it will depreciate. I am sure HD will come out with a newer, bigger,better and more desirable CVO model in the near future that will make the '07's less desirable and lessen their resale value. But what the heck, that is their job. If they didn't keep improving every year then we would all be happy to keep riding our old EVO's forever.

You can't blame the dealers for trying to make as much money as they can. If they are selling for 2K over MSRP and you can get it elsewhere for MSRP then the buyer is at fault for being willing to pay the higher price. It all boils down to the "want" factor. If you "want" it bad enough you are willing to pay whatever they are asking. We are not talking "necessities" here ladies and gentlemen. We are talking "luxuries".

If you are fortunate enough to be able to afford a CVO just ride it and enjoy it and don't sweat the small stuff. After all, it's just money.

'07 SE Ultra $33,495
Freight $335
Dealer Set-up $400
TTL $2000
The feeling you get when you ride it---"priceless"

Fired00d · « **Reply #119 on:** August 20, 2006, 02:52:53 PM »

Quote

I think we all get too hung up on resale value and what our bikes will be worth down the road. To me, my bike is not an investment......I buy a bike to ride. I bought the CVO because I like the look, power, features and charisma it has. I plan on riding the piss out of it. When and if I sell it, the market will dictate what it is worth. In the time being I am not going to worry about how much it will depreciate.......

You can't blame the dealers for trying to make as much money as they can. If they are selling for 2K over MSRP and you can get it elsewhere for MSRP then the buyer is at fault for being willing to pay the higher price. It all boils down to the "want" factor. If you "want" it bad enough you are willing to pay whatever they are asking. We are not talking "necessities" here ladies and gentlemen. We are talking "luxuries".

If you are fortunate enough to be able to afford a CVO just ride it and enjoy it and don't sweat the small stuff. After all, it's just money.

'07 SE Ultra $33,495
Freight $335
Dealer Set-up $400
TTL $2000
The feeling you get when you ride it---"priceless"

Exactly. I didn't buy my Pumpkin with resale in the back of my mind. I bought it because I loved the bike (color, styling, and performance). When it comes a time that I want to upgrade any of those the aftermarket will be well ahead of anything the MoCo will have out (if I were to upgrade performance now can you say Zippers/Jims?). If and when I do decide to sell my scooter it will be "used" and hopefully used up as I plan on riding it until one of us can't ride anymore. As you stated these are luxuries and just so happens my luxury is priceless to me. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

kazumdgc · « **Reply #120 on:** August 20, 2006, 05:26:41 PM »

Allow me to chime in as well. I agree with Ace and Da Dood. I got my CVO because I like being a little different. I don't want to be like evrybody else. I don't mind when I have no choice but if I can do the CVO and have the Ultra Ultra I am one happy guy. I hope I can ride this bike for 10 years and then I will be 66. I may buy another bike then to ride around town and keep the UU for the long trips but heck who cares what it is worth then. To me it's priceless. Priceless because I had 10 years of experiences and rides. Nobody can put a value on that my CVO Brothers and Sisters.

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #121 on:** August 20, 2006, 05:34:02 PM »

Kaz I think that is well said however according to Harley the average Harley rider trades every 3.5 years ...I am sure to them resale is a big factor ... maybe not but I got a hunch that it is ...

Bama

Fired00d · « **Reply #122 on:** August 20, 2006, 05:42:21 PM »

Quote

Kaz I think that is well said however according to Harley the average Harley rider trades every 3.5 years ...I am sure to them resale is a big factor ... maybe not but I got a hunch that it is ...

Bama

Who you calling average? I own a CVO!!! Sorry the arrogant devil's advocate made me go there. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

KentuckyHarleyDude · « **Reply #123 on:** August 20, 2006, 05:57:39 PM »

Quote

Who you calling average? I own a CVO!!! Sorry the arrogant devil's advocate made me go there. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

[smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
[smiley=fireman.gif]

LOL dood ..I bet you would argue with a stop sign ...however I have to be totally honest here ....I can't help but think that ANYONE who would drive 100 miles or more from thier home dealer to save $500.00 when buying a new bike or to save 10 to 20% on accessories would HAVE to be interested in the investment they made in their bike and what it will be worth when they decide to get rid of it ... JMO

Bama

HWYMAN1 · « **Reply #124 on:** August 20, 2006, 06:14:16 PM »

2007 Screaming Eagle Ultra Classic.....$33,495 ( sugg. MSRP)
2006 Screaming Eagle Ultra Classic.....$29, 945(est. Kelly bluebook)
Screaming Eagle Six Speed................$3700(approx. installed)
110 ci motor upgrade.......................$2495( parts only)
Riding what you got.........................priceless

kazumdgc · « **Reply #125 on:** August 20, 2006, 07:51:06 PM »

well if that what makes them tick so be it. I believe if it works don't fix it. If I had not had a person not paying attention I would still be driving by 04 ultra. Hell one of my buddies just turned 100K on his bike so we must be the minor majority which is OK. I buy what I like and keep it for as long as I can. Don't get me wrong I will drive a long way to save a buck but not for the investment for the pure pleasure.
You guys are great. I am so looking forward to meeting you all one day.

ace4059 · « **Reply #126 on:** August 20, 2006, 10:59:27 PM »

Apparently not at this HD dealer: www.lonestarharley.com

Author Topic: Will the new 07s kill the value of Pre 07 CVO's ? (Read 10233 times)

cigarmike