www.CVOHARLEY.com
CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: HILLSIDECYCLE.COM on May 17, 2012, 08:45:59 AM
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Part # 413-901.
These look to be a very well thought out product, for the hydraulic cam chain set-ups.
Scott
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Or.... a manufacturer's/advertiser's relatively expensive solution to a problem that's not proven to be a real problem. So many marketers act like if they throw a product in front of us we'll queue up like lemmings with open wallets.
$160 aftermarket tensioners to replace Mother Harley's that can be had for $80 before any discount. Wouldn't do that if they came from shop I actually liked. From Zippers not a chance.
Link to the product page and pics of the pieces in question:
http://www.zippersperformance.com/catalogue/showproduct.asp?cat=588&prod=2308
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Guess the gavel has fallen..........
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Guess the gavel has fallen..........
:smash:
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have a set coming for my build the more parts in my motor that done say hd on them the happier i will be
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I have heard nothing bad about the HD ones, and they WILL answer the phone when I call the dealer if I have a problem (unlike some other companies).
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Ah...one or two..same oil pressure, same oil volume. I'll stay with the stock one.
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Are these for the old or new style chains. if they are for the old style then they might have something here cause the old one need to be changed every 25,000 if they are for the new ones then they would not be worth it.
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Are these for the old or new style chains. if they are for the old style then they might have something here cause the old one need to be changed every 25,000 if they are for the new ones then they would not be worth it.
These are replacements for the new style tensioners. The follow on product to this will be an improved dipstick wiping cloth. It too will cost twice as much. Vendors will look to shill that product for its greater margin also.
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Don't really care, if we sell one single unit.
Will not change my lifestyle either way.
Just thought folks would like to be kept abreast, of the latest innovation from that company.
Scott
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Don't really care, if we sell one single unit.
Will not change my lifestyle either way.
Just thought folks would like to be kept abreast, of the latest innovation from that company.
Scott
Thanks Scott,
I like to know about all the new stuff on the market and you are a credible source.
I would add these to my next cam change if I were to change.
What's $160 vs the price of improved accuracy or maybe future failure?
I'm not an engineer but the concept looks like an improvement.
Al
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Happy to share the info. :2vrolijk_21:
Scott
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Thanks Scott,
I like to know about all the new stuff on the market and you are a credible source.
I would add these to my next cam change if I were to change.
What's $160 vs the price of improved accuracy or maybe future failure?
I'm not an engineer but the concept looks like an improvement.
Al
That's what a lot of these companies count on Al, most folks aren't engineers but they look at a forged part next to the stock stuff for instance and just assume the forged stuff is better. Or a really big thing in the Harley world is stuff machined from billet. Really looks nice and solid, but in many cases it doesn't actually perform any better than the less expensive stock stuff. So looks aren't the deciding factor to an engineer, especially on a part that isn't normally visible. A engineer wants to see performance data that proves a measureable benefit for the added cost. Advertising puffery doesn't count as measureable data, btw.
Has anyone actually documented a serious deficiency in the stock design that would lead to a need to upgrade? And what exactly is it about the Zipper's design that supposedly improves cam timing accuracy? That was an issue in the old days with the spring loaded tensioner's and the sloppy fit of the cam gears, but I haven't heard that story since Harley went to the current system. Do you suppose they've changed the size of the oil bleed orifice to add more force to the shoe and chain? If so, do you suppose the added force might accelerate wear of the shoe and/or the chain? Or is this claim just something pulled out of thin air because it sounds like a performance improvement? Everyone likes power increases, even if they are really imaginary.
Hopefully you get my point, which is there is a serious lack of real data to prove this part is actually needed, or that this part actually provides a measureable benefit. I would like to see the proof before I blindly accept claims in an ad, especially an ad from a company with a history of misleading claims.
Jerry
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Jerry,
especially an ad from a company with a history of misleading claims.
OK, verify this.
Al
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"The follow on product to this will be an improved dipstick wiping cloth."
Twolane, do you have the part number for this? It will be the perfect compliment to my digital oil level/temp gauge/dipstick and Cobra PowrPro.
Scott, just ignore those wet-blanket-buzzkill skeptics (you know who you are!). :zstupid: They probably fried the cat in Wesson Oil (I hope that 70s reference isn't lost here). Thanks for the info, your wisdom and input is always appreciated. :2vrolijk_21: :asskiss emoticon: Keep up the good work!
Dan
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Might be cool with the new Clarity Cam cover :D
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"The follow on product to this will be an improved dipstick wiping cloth."
Twolane, do you have the part number for this? It will be the perfect compliment to my digital oil level/temp gauge/dipstick and Cobra PowrPro.
Scott, just ignore those wet-blanket-buzzkill skeptics (you know who you are!). :zstupid: They probably fried the cat in Wesson Oil (I hope that 70s reference isn't lost here). Thanks for the info, your wisdom and input is always appreciated. :2vrolijk_21: :asskiss emoticon: Keep up the good work!
Dan
Dan, being my ever helpful self here's the image file you were going for. (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/gallery/527_22_05_12_4_17_22.gif) And being my ever corteous self; you're welcome :2vrolijk_21: .
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Don, you are a gem! I hoped someone would catch my :asskiss emoticon:. Now I regret what I said to your Bike for Sale thread.
Now if I can figure out how to save it for future use...
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Part # 413-901.
These look to be a very well thought out product, for the hydraulic cam chain set-ups.
Scott
mine showed up today nice looking item
Scott is not the first person to tell me about these i ordered them because BAISLEY HI- PERFORMANCE said with his bypass valve and spring setup this would be the ticket for un controled oil pressure and low oil pressure
I have not install yet but time will tell HOPE to have build done this weekend i have installed bypass valve in cam plate and spring another nice item http://baisley.com/oil_spring_product.htm
time tells all stories
gabe
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Yep.
Scott
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Zipper's claims an increase in horsepower when you put one of these puppies in. Does anyone have a dyno sheet for verification?? :2vrolijk_21:
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What were they laughing about? :nixweiss:
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Perhaps Zippers does.
BTW, it took about 24 months for this patented product to come to market.
While I was talking to them the other day, in regards to some back-ordered products, we were discussing the negative comments in this thread.
They laughed.............
Scott
Did you discuss the similar negative comments made about this "product" being made on the other various motorcycle forums also? There's a lot of laughing going on....
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What were they laughing about? :nixweiss:
I assume they were laughing about how easy it is to fool some of the people all of the time. They also know a couple of the people who made negative comments fairly well from previous dealings those folks have had with Zipper's.
I may be hard headed, but I can be swayed to reevaluate my position on things when I'm presented with real evidence and proof. I find it sort of funny how simple requests for proof a problem really exists are ignored. Still waiting for anyone to offer up some proof to back up the claims on not only this product, but a lot of other stuff being hawked these days.
For those who like to blindly believe whatever they see in advertising, feel free to do so. We all know that no one would ever mislead anyone to make a buck.
Scott, none of my comments are meant to cast aspersions on you btw. You just offered the information to the forum that was presented to you. I've never had any reason to doubt your veracity in the past, and don't see any reason here either.
Jerry
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Did you discuss the similar negative comments made about this "product" being made on the other various motorcycle forums also? There's a lot of laughing going on....
Don't be surprised at Zipper's response to legitimate product questions. Figuratively or literally laughing at their customers and general disregard is a too often related theme of their fair weather customer support. Shops that behave that way, and shops that collude in that behavior, are shops to be skeptical of.
Hillside posted a product. An expensive product even compared to the MoCo's offering. Posted a product on a public discussion forum. The product wasn't bashed. But it was quite legitimately questioned.
For that apparently both Zippers and Hillside got their feelings hurt and felt better about it after "laughing" at and thereby disrespecting their potential customers. Just because that potential client base chose an approach that questions a product before purchase rather than being the lemming to expensive products just because that product is laid out. Has to make one question the shops as well as the product.
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I assume they were laughing about how easy it is to fool some of the people all of the time. They also know a couple of the people who made negative comments fairly well from previous dealings those folks have had with Zipper's.
I may be hard headed, but I can be swayed to reevaluate my position on things when I'm presented with real evidence and proof. I find it sort of funny how simple requests for proof a problem really exists are ignored. Still waiting for anyone to offer up some proof to back up the claims on not only this product, but a lot of other stuff being hawked these days.
For those who like to blindly believe whatever they see in advertising, feel free to do so. We all know that no one would ever mislead anyone to make a buck.
Scott, none of my comments are meant to cast aspersions on you btw. You just offered the information to the forum that was presented to you. I've never had any reason to doubt your veracity in the past, and don't see any reason here either.
Jerry
Yes,
me too Jerry.
“I find it sort of funny how simple requests for proof a problem really exists are ignored.”
in reference to,
“especially an ad from a company with a history of misleading claims”. ??
Al
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Yes,
me too Jerry.
“I find it sort of funny how simple requests for proof a problem really exists are ignored.”
in reference to,
“especially an ad from a company with a history of misleading claims”. ??
Al
By the product supplier and their sales agent had an opportunity to do one of two things after seeing questions on the product. They could have:
A) Represented the product claims
B) Laughed at and/or ridiculed their potential customers
Personally I'll never spend money with businesses whose first choice is B.
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Yes,
me too Jerry.
“I find it sort of funny how simple requests for proof a problem really exists are ignored.”
in reference to,
“especially an ad from a company with a history of misleading claims”. ??
Al
Just my personal experiences with purchases from the folks at Zipper's in the past Al. Reinforced by the similar experiences that have been cussed and discussed on this forum by other members over the years. One case in point, the totally false and misleading claims that were made when they brought the T-Max to market. Mine was returned when they couldn't make it run worth two dead flies, much less do all the wonderful things they claimed in their ads and promotional posts on this very site. Their support was nonexistent, they didn't have any real answers to tech questions, and the product did not work for a significant number of people. There are other examples, but I'm not interested in rehashing all of them. If you like them, or happen to be a shill for them, fine with me. You can have your opinion of them, and I will continue to have mine until I see proof that they aren't just blowing smoke like in the past.
Still waiting to see any evidence offered up by anyone, not just Zipper's, to indicate there is a widespread problem with the stock system that requires this solution btw. Do you have any such information, either from your personal experience with late model Twin Cams or from some impartial source? I find it strange that with all the engine builders on this site and other Harley sites, no one has been saying anything about the late model hydraulic tensioner system being a POS like the old spring loaded system. In fact, when the discussion comes around to gear drives, many of the engine builders offer up the opinion that they aren't really needed since the change to the hydraulic tensioner system.
Anyhow, everyone is free to believe what they want and spend their money with whoever they want. I'd hate to cause another recession by insisting folks only spend on stuff that is actually necessary. Doing that might put the Harley market into a dive from which it would never recover. Let me run right out and buy a set of those 8 hp spark plug wires as my contribution to keeping the Harley market alive and well.
Jerry
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Bobby had enough faith in the STOCK chain drive to offer a TW62 for the 07up. This is no wee bitty cam my friends
I just kick back and wait for the product to stand on it's own merit and show some value for the $$$ spent. That will take a while.
My latest buy and what I feel passes the sniff test is Bakers chain tensioner for the late models.
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Should this be the start of another thread?
I had a look at the Bakers chain tensioner.
One step forward, one step back !
Or ... one step back, one step forward .
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As for the topic part I have no idea if they are worth the money (add power as claimed) or if they will hold up over time so I abstain, no opinion.
We will know in a year. No bias to speak of about the company but I will let others learn about them before I dive in.
The Baker chain tensioner puts the bike back to the point (Pre 07) so that the auto tensioner is not over-tightening the chain , a problem which is exaggerated by a hi-performance motor.
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well, i'm pretty sure my tensioner is in need of replacement at 39k (assuming mine is hydraulic), fibers are showing up in my filter and i've developed a nasty sound once the bike warms up which changes with oil pressure. thought the new harley tensioners were good for 50k or more which makes me wonder my 09 is the old spring-load. i'm on the fence about putting installing this tensioner, my experience with zippers wasn't all that great either. either way, a new pump sounds like it is in order.
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bikes up and running now we are runing over 50 psi oil pressure with the zipper and baisley spring and valve
is this pressure causeing a new problem of oil burning and failing plugs with oil
did a compresssion test both cylinders 150 psi after a 30 minutes down about 135 rings ? or to much oil presure??
500 miles on motor exhaust oil up
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extra oil pressure can cause all kinds of problems
we all know about "if some is good more is better" but its not true
to
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Certainly if bleed is slowed in one place and pressure is raised this changes the oil distribution (balance) in the motor, piston jets come to mind as a producer of higher quantity of oil plus with that much pressure they will be active all the time and never shut down as they were designed to do at idle <14psi, for one plus the quantity of sump oil generated.
Regarding the oil consumption, first find why the compression is low. This is a separate issue but not necessarily unrelated. Assuming you had the throttle wide open when the compression was tested.
Disclaimer: I still have no opinion about the tensioners and have had nothing but decent dealings with Zippers.
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Certainly if bleed is slowed in one place and pressure is raised this changes the oil distribution (balance) in the motor, piston jets come to mind as a producer of higher quantity of oil plus with that much pressure they will be active all the time and never shut down as they were designed to do at idle <14psi, for one plus the quantity of sump oil generated.
Regarding the oil consumption, first find why the compression is low. This is a separate issue but not necessarily unrelated. Assuming you had the throttle wide open when the compression was tested.
Disclaimer: I still have no opinion about the tensioners and have had nothing but decent dealings with Zippers.
throttle wide open on cmpression test new to harley building tell me more did it old shool installed gauge crank got to hidhest point stoped checked for bleed done???????????
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throttle wide open on cmpression test new to harley building tell me more did it old shool installed gauge crank got to hidhest point stoped checked for bleed done???????????
You should hold the throttle wide open when performing a compression test...
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You should hold the throttle wide open when performing a compression test...
did not know that thank you
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With an electronic throttle, you will need to block the actual throttle plate open, not just hold the grip wide open.
Jerry
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With an electronic throttle, you will need to block the actual throttle plate open, not just hold the grip wide open.
Jerry
:2vrolijk_21:
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You will see ~25 lbs more IME
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With an electronic throttle, you will need to block the actual throttle plate open, not just hold the grip wide open.
Jerry
thanks iam old school this new sh*t still learning
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What about ACR's do they figure in whiledoing compression test?
:bananarock: :bananarock:
Brad
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What about ACR's do they figure in whiledoing compression test?
:bananarock: :bananarock:
Brad
I think you already know the answer to your question ... ::) ... but for those who might not know...the ACR's need to be disabled (I simply unplug them...).
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What about ACR's do they figure in whiledoing compression test?
:bananarock: :bananarock:
Brad
You have to stick your tongue in through the spark plug hole and let it cover the ACR hole. Some guys can do it with something other than their tongue. But I'd never admit to that if I were one of them.
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You should hold the throttle wide open when performing a compression test...
And have a battery charger attached
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Interesting change with these. My tensioners are getting replaced soon as I figure out which way to go.
Anyone else have new style 25K tensioners they have looked at? Mine are wearing unevenly.
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=34374.msg1125725#msg1125725
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In spite of all the negativity and sarcastic inuendo aimed at this innovative product, now recognized by some of the leaders in the industry, the patented units from Zippers are touted as having the ability to have a more correct contact surface.
Scott
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In spite of all the negativity and sarcastic inuendo aimed at this innovative product, now recognized by some of the leaders in the industry, the patented units from Zippers are touted as having the ability to have a more correct contact surface.
I can see where that is possible with 2 pistons compared to 1. Same as 4 piston vs 2 piston calipers, until actually tested, just a "perceived" value.
My question would be - does the Zippers version have twice the pressure applied to the chain since they appear to have about the same size piston and are fed with the same supply.
And since they have only been out for about a year there is no long term real world results.
I'd like to see contact area of the 2 side by side.
Mine are worn and will be changing them either way.
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In spite of all the negativity and sarcastic inuendo aimed at this innovative product, now recognized by some of the leaders in the industry, the patented units from Zippers are touted as having the ability to have a more correct contact surface.
Scott
Still trying very hard to sell a much more expenesive product with a likely higher margin that is marketed to fix a problem that wasn't a big issue before the competitive product's claims were made. That's the American way. :2vrolijk_21:
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Certainly does garner bandwidth however
I subscribe to the "if it aint broke..." theory as well but in the pursuit of more power and retaining stock or better reliability new products need a shot. S&S gave us a belly full about "accurate valve timing" and " less drag" with gears and how all that would equate to more power. Well in these 6,000 rpm motors it just didn't pan out. The root cause of bad tensioners was addressed however. We are back to chains and power is better than ever when you factor in the loss of the 6sp drivetrain. So will this device add power, I doubt it. Is the pad material superior, probably but is the original material a problem, not from our experience and nothing I have seen chronically reported on the net. So what will these devices actually do for us? This is an objective question. I am neutral and want to know what value is added by the purchase.
Personally I do see one benefit and none of what they advertise. There is tighter clearance between the pistons and the body therefore less oil bleed to the cam chest, thus less oil to scavenge and more supply to the lifters or over bypass. On a similar note and not to hijack the thread the Axtell bypass valve is sure an interesting device. I would like to see them send the bypass oil back to tank maybe through a cooler for the same reason to prevent added scavenge oil and reduce heat.
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Still trying very hard to sell a much more expenesive product with a likely higher margin that is marketed to fix a problem that wasn't a big issue before the competitive product's claims were made. That's the American way. :2vrolijk_21:
Twolane I know we differ on opinions when the topic of ZIPPERS comes up. You have better reason to dislike them. But I am going to do just a LITTLE work to Saphire and I AM GOING to put these Sapphire's cam chest!!!! Along with just a few other little items!!!!!!
OK Harry did you catch that???? I said I AM!!!!!! That means I will be doing all of my own work with the exception of just a LITTLE machine work!!!!! Yes I said just a little!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Twolane I know we differ on opinions when the topic of ZIPPERS comes up. You have better reason to dislike them. But I am going to do just a LITTLE work to Saphire and I AM GOING to put these Sapphire's cam chest!!!! Along with just a few other little items!!!!!!
OK Harry did you catch that???? I said I AM!!!!!! That means I will be doing all of my own work with the exception of just a LITTLE machine work!!!!! Yes I said just a little!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
Don't equate my amusement with the sales effort to any particular expectation of failure with the part Mike. I don't see a problem with the part vis-a-vis its basic function. I don't see enough to justify the price difference; but that's my own relative judgment.
The hyperbole about performance gains and noticeably better running engines coming from the chain tensioners is still, to me, more smoke than fire. But that doesn't mean as a chain tensioner they aren't a perfectly satisfactory part. That being so there's no particular reason not to go with them if one is wanting to do every possible thing they can (the manufacturer notwithstanding).
Personally I don't see in the cost versus benefit analysis enough to justify paying such a premium over the stock part. The stock part hasn't been doing a bad job. And these are new enough we have no idea what their wear pattern or duration will be over time.
The (albeit normal) hyperbolic advertising claims are amusing. The sales claims from the shops to sell the more expensive and higher margin part are amusing as well. Though not unexpected. It really is just part of doing business (at least here in this market; though across the larger markets as well). I still remember magnets for fuel lines and finned widgets for air cleaners and myriad other gadgets on gas station shelves in the 60s and 70s. Claims are easy.
In this case the part is actually (probably) a perfectly satisfactory part. There won't be issues with its use. I just don't see the likelihood that its benefits over the stock part (minimal or more) justify the price premium. Hell, I look for reasons to find alternatives to MoCo branded parts. But not at the expense of a keystone markup or more for the privilege. For Willie's sake, this is HD pricing we're taking about pricing at a premium over :huepfenlol2: .
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So . who is wiling to sell the tensioners at less then $160 :nixweiss:
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So . who is wiling to sell the tensioners at less then $160 :nixweiss:
Just checked and didn't find the part in Drag. So no discount from those who discount using Drag #s. Guess that leaves us with the (few) vendors leading the charge to bring to us their happy customers the benefit of this great new part at a discount matching what so many other vendors feel we deserve... ::)
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Still trying very hard to sell a much more expenesive product with a likely higher margin that is marketed to fix a problem that wasn't a big issue before the competitive product's claims were made. That's the American way. :2vrolijk_21:
Seems to me you (the master of all) spent a lot of money on unproven tuners in the past....in fact I think you bought all the snake oil in tuners...lol...lol...lol...lol....DUH...!!!!!
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Seems to me you (the master of all) spent a lot of money on unproven tuners in the past....in fact I think you bought all the snake oil in tuners...lol...lol...lol...lol....DUH...!!!!!
No, not so much.
Used Power Commander for many years when there was a talented Power Commander tuner close by. Made sense. Certainly more sense than driving across country to get a tune using a more expensive device when the option was in my backyard.
After he retired used a Thundermax when next needed a product. That was before TTS was on the street.
After that tried the EMS product. That was an experiment on a new and unknown product. But one on which all available due diligence had been done and the research had proved promising (with the icing on the cake being it worked very very well).
So.... rather than following advertising hyperbole or following the preachings of the presumed literati I've actually followed generally logical approaches, made as much sense as possible, spent as little money as made sense, avoided vendors that are as likely to dis their customers as thank them; and rode on to enjoy my days.
So, as has happened before, you've got me wrong. That's ok; it's not unexpected. Have seen all the other products (most several times) as the riding buddies around here enjoy my little beer fridge, my lift and we enjoy each others respectful company as I gladly help them with their own stuff or let them use the lift as they play. It's all good.
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No, not so much.
Used Power Commander for many years when there was a talented Power Commander tuner close by. Made sense. Certainly more sense than driving across country to get a tune using a more expensive device when the option was in my backyard.
After he retired used a Thundermax when next needed a product. That was before TTS was on the street.
After that tried the EMS product. That was an experiment on a new and unknown product. But one on which all available due diligence had been done and the research had proved promising (with the icing on the cake being it worked very very well).
So.... rather than following advertising hyperbole or following the preachings of the presumed literati I've actually followed generally logical approaches, made as much sense as possible, spent as little money as made sense, avoided vendors that are as likely to dis their customers as thank them; and rode on to enjoy my days.
So, as has happened before, you've got me wrong. That's ok; it's not unexpected. Have seen all the other products (most several times) as the riding buddies around here enjoy my little beer fridge, my lift and we enjoy each others respectful company as I gladly help them with their own stuff or let them use the lift as they play. It's all good.
Actually I think at our age that is what this Motorcycle thing is all about!!! AHHHH the bike lift and a fridge full of ICE COLD BEER!!!!
Don I am going to try them. My bike will no longer be a stocker and I always have a little worries about some of the MOCO parts in my motor. I guess time will tell.
Duane I have a friend that is a Zippers authorized dealer. I'm going to call him tomorrow. I will ask him about a discount if we order more than one!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Duane I have a friend that is a Zippers authorized dealer. I'm going to call him tomorrow. I will ask him about a discount if we order more than one!!!
Mike, either way I am replacing mine, they are worn enough to warrant it. Let me know.
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Actually I think at our age that is what this Motorcycle thing is all about!!! AHHHH the bike lift and a fridge full of ICE COLD BEER!!!!
Amen to that Michael. A few good friends, a few cold beers, a comfortable lift and the friendly lies and stories that accompany all that. You can't get that dealing with shops and dealerships. Have to play at home where every word is trusted (even if it's wrong!).
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Still trying very hard to sell a much more expenesive product with a likely higher margin that is marketed to fix a problem that wasn't a big issue before the competitive product's claims were made. That's the American way. :2vrolijk_21:
I am personally not trying to sell them thru any argument here,(and the profit margin is not that good FYFI) but rather, do not care for conjecture and snide scarcasim to try and sway folks from a product, that without your demeaning tone, is welcomed by un-named industry leaders across the continent.........
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If you think there is an inherent problem with the HD system, then perhaps taking a look at a different way to do things is warranted. I went to the S&S gear drive system, and have been very pleased in performance and reliability. Hars to argue with S&S and their products.
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I am personally not trying to sell them thru any argument here,(and the profit margin is not that good FYFI) but rather, do not care for conjecture and snide scarcasim to try and sway folks from a product, that without your demeaning tone, is welcomed by un-named industry leaders across the continent.........
Aside from the punctuation and spelling issues that was almost well written. Will put on my (Willie G styled) editor's beanie and give it shot:
"I am personally not trying to sell them (the questionably needed and expensive tensioners [and, actually, yes, he was pitching them earlier, but that's beside the point]) via (or "through") any argument here. I do not care for the conjecture and snide sarcasm to try and sway folks from a product that, without your demeaning tone, is welcomed by unnamed leaders across the continent."
Now that it's in English let's discuss:
Sure you were pitching a product. Won't waste further time on the obvious.
It doesn't matter if you don't care for my conjecture or my opinion or my anecdotal thoughts. They are relevant, not out of line, hadn't been rudely offered and are, quite frankly, more on point than any lazily "unnamed" source without citation. Furthermore, when you're pitching a product to a site whose purpose is conversation and shared thought it's dubious to assume you won't have a conversation and be subjected to shared thoughts. That all such conversation doesn't bend to your wish or whim is unfortunate (for you) but it is what it is.
Scotty, if you didn't want a volley you shouldn't have served. The tone of the volleys has been questioning, not rude; though I'm willing to follow your lead on the tone. I'm sorry if insecurities or other issues make you so sensitive to relatively general questioning. But there are questions about this product relative to the assertions claimed for it. Those aren't likely to stop. "FYFI" (just to follow your lead).
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Let me get back to the important stuff now.................like watching the grass grow.............. :D :D :D
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If you think there is an inherent problem with the HD system, then perhaps taking a look at a different way to do things is warranted. I went to the S&S gear drive system, and have been very pleased in performance and reliability. Hars to argue with S&S and their products.
agree`d,no matter who`s tesioner is used,its not a matter of if,but when they`ll fail
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the way that i see all this boils down to something like this.
chains are way way cheaper mostly because they are more tolerant of small variations in the crank.. they are quieter than spur gears. helical timing gears require thrust bearings at crank and cam. so at the crank - its held by the output side and at the cam the cam plate - so helical are out. spur gears will last for eons - will the rest of the timing case make it that long? use a small cam [like the stock cam] to get more life out of it? cant get stock grinds in gear drive. if its not a stock grind its 500 more for tuning - minimum.
so in either case - the lifters are the wild card - the week before my esp expires its getting new lifters - and many mech say to do new cams with the lifters - and new bearings with the cams - cant argue its just a pile of cash.
however in the argument over chains, tensioners, gears - id bet a case of beer that the cranks that are nearly perfect show less tensioner wear because the chain is not moving the tensioner each rev of the crank.
so is a double ram tensioner a performance item? or is its a way to get a wonky crank to work ok longer? hmmm
no pictures or proof but its what has always been on my mind. [i do a lot of machine work as a side job and today am finishing a set of 17 parts that are supposed to be plus or minus .0003 as a set - very aggravating and very time consuming]
to be clear if the crank is a bit off - the small timing gear is moving in a tiny orbit - the distance from gear to gear changes and the tensioner has to move in and out constantly - if the crank is perfect the tensioner will essentially never move as the engine is running. this is obviously a over simplification since the chain has momentum and will show its own vibration and not follow a straight path off the sprocket on the load side. but still, a perfect crank is going to provide a large chance that the chain drive will last a long time
gear drives on a perfect crank will obviously be the most durable set up. diesel engines for the most part have a gear accessory drive - rather than a belt drive - they use a belt usually for the alternator and the fan - but some drive those gear - it depends on the life cycle. and they cost 3 times as much for the same power and size.
if i was certain the lifters etc would last long enough to make the cash put out to do gear drive worth the money id do it - but the chain drive is soooooooo cheap and so tolerant of slop and mis alignment that hd and most mechanics take the "risk" that something else will be the fail first is so high that it doesn't pay. if a lifter fails so much else has to be redone that its moot.
show me a lifter that simply "will not fail period" and im interested.
my old bikes only went 30k miles before i had to take them apart - modifications got done at each time apart - the habit of messing with my bike started right there. on this bike i have so far left the engine and head pipes completely alone - will start doing propalactic work late this summer. but no hot rodding is in the cards its just too expensive, i want to ride it, not look at it in pieces in my garage. if i see SOLID evidence that gear drive and lifters would get me to 150,000 id do it - but so far i dont see it. and if that happened i want a gear drive cam that is near one of the stock grinds. ie long lasting ramp profile. solid evidence is bike x with 150,000 on it without a bolt turned - the rest is in my mind hearsay.
there is one bike with a evo engine that went 400k with a sidecar straight stock the whole time. id like to know its repair history. how long did stuff last run stock non stop?
to
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Let me get back to the important stuff now.................like watching the grass grow.............. :D :D :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR-Eozbzf0U
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At least now we have something constructive going on !
quote author=Twolanerider link=topic=74040.msg1126233#msg1126233 date=1366034896]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR-Eozbzf0U
[/quote]
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My tensioners, installed Around April 09, my guess about 25K
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As a side note. One year after installing the cams, SE hydraulic cam plate kit etc I pulled the plate off to change the spring back to stock and check (too much oil pressure).
This is what the plate looked like. 8K or so.
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And it looks like this now. Another 3 years and 17K+
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And - since lifters were mentioned a few posts ago, this ............
When I did the cams in 2009 I used SE lifters. In an attempt to quiet down the sewing machine I put in S&S lifters with hydraulic limiters in 2012.
1 year later one lifter looks like this. This also happens to be the same lobe (front intake) that failed on Kathy's bike at MV last year. With the same cams (Z 575's), about the same install time and mileage.
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Amen to that Michael. A few good friends, a few cold beers, a comfortable lift and the friendly lies and stories that accompany all that. You can't get that dealing with shops and dealerships. Have to play at home where every word is trusted (even if it's wrong!).
Exactally!!!! You gotta love "THE SHOP" It really doesn't any better!!!!
Duane I am on the phone with him as I type!!! Should have a small discount since we have to pay for shipping!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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And - since lifters were mentioned a few posts ago, this ............
When I did the cams in 2009 I used SE lifters. In an attempt to quiet down the sewing machine I put in S&S lifters with hydraulic limiters in 2012.
1 year later one lifter looks like this. This also happens to be the same lobe (front intake) that failed on Kathy's bike at MV last year. With about the same install time and mileage.
Looks like a piece of debris ran thru that.
Scott
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Looks like a piece of debris ran thru that.
Scott
The lobe does not have a matching scar.
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Duane are you back up and running??? I decided to wait till the fall to pull mine down!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Duane are you back up and running??? I decided to wait till the fall to pull mine down!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
He is waiting on cylinders
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Duane are you back up and running??? I decided to wait till the fall to pull mine down!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
No - one little thing after another.
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No - one little thing after another.
GOOD LUCK my Brother!!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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GOOD LUCK my Brother!!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
Yeah - the latest is "give me all the gaskets I need to do the engine, and trans stuff".
That's OK - I don't need those pesky breather gaskets I specifically asked for :nixweiss:
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Duane,
Are those the S&S premium lifters they advertise today?
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Duane,
Are those the S&S premium lifters they advertise today?
Pete - less then 1 year, 3000 miles, S&S with the limiters.
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Pete - less then 1 year, 3000 miles, S&S with the limiters.
Duane
Were those S&S lifters w/limiters you used the "Premium" lifters?
I had used the standard S&S lifters but the below are going into the 2012 SERG.
SBB
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Duane
Were those S&S lifters w/limiters you used the "Premium" lifters?
I had used the standard S&S lifters but the below are going into the 2012 SERG.
Don't remember Chip. The price I recall would make them "premium". I'll check later today, I think I saved them.
Plain old stock lifters are going back in today though.
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Don't remember Chip. The price I recall would make them "premium". I'll check later today, I think I saved them.
Plain old stock lifters are going back in today though.
I ran the standard S&S lifters w/travel limiters in the 2009 SEUC for 29,960 miles.
When replaced they did show some sign of wear but nothing alarming.
I'm hoping this new "Premium" set last.
I'm damn tired of worrying about lifters.
::)
SBB
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$$$ :nixweiss:
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$$$ :nixweiss:
$223.20 if the above was a question.
:nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:
SBB
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$223.20 if the above was a question.
Yes. Seems about what I paid for what I have.
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I ran the standard S&S lifters w/travel limiters in the 2009 SEUC for 29,960 miles.
When replaced they did show some sign of wear but nothing alarming.
I'm hoping this new "Premium" set last.
I'm damn tired of worrying about lifters.
::)
SBB
Had about the same mileage on mine before changing out to these new lifters. Started chirping on way home from Ribfest (rear intake), luckily caught it before any serious damage was done. Going to change them every 20K miles going forward.
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The lobe does not have a matching scar.
Well I doubt that wheel has an isolated area that did not make it thru heat treat, so something passed thru there.
Is it pronounced enough to be able to catch your fingernail?
Scott
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Scott, something "passing through" doesn't make sense to me.
I would think something not showing up on the lobe would indicate debris jammed in the lifter. But how - where could something like that come from, especially considering nothing else is scarred like that.
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Is it pronounced enough to be able to catch your fingernail?
Checked, can't feel it all, not even using a needle. One other roller has a barely even visible similar mark.
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Were those S&S lifters w/limiters you used the "Premium" lifters?
Chip, when did the "premiums come out?
Mine have no text on them other then small barely readable numbers starting with "327"