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[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Still trying very hard to sell a much more expenesive product with a likely higher margin that is marketed to fix a problem that wasn't a big issue before the competitive product's claims were made.  That's the American way.   

I am personally not trying to sell them thru any argument here,(and the profit margin is not that good FYFI) but rather, do not care for conjecture and snide scarcasim to try and sway folks from a product, that without your demeaning tone, is welcomed by un-named industry leaders across the continent.........

[Badger Mike]

If you think there is an inherent problem with the HD system, then perhaps taking a look at a different way to do things is warranted.  I went to the S&S gear drive system, and have been very pleased in performance and reliability.  Hars to argue with S&S and their products.

[Twolanerider]

I am personally not trying to sell them thru any argument here,(and the profit margin is not that good FYFI) but rather, do not care for conjecture and snide scarcasim to try and sway folks from a product, that without your demeaning tone, is welcomed by un-named industry leaders across the continent.........

Aside from the punctuation and spelling issues that was almost well written.  Will put on my (Willie G styled) editor's beanie and give it shot:

"I am personally not trying to sell them (the questionably needed and expensive tensioners [and, actually, yes, he was pitching them earlier, but that's beside the point]) via (or "through") any argument here.  I do not care for the conjecture and snide sarcasm to try and sway folks from a product that, without your demeaning tone, is welcomed by unnamed leaders across the continent."

Now that it's in English let's discuss:

Sure you were pitching a product.  Won't waste further time on the obvious. 

It doesn't matter if you don't care for my conjecture or my opinion or my anecdotal thoughts.  They are relevant, not out of line, hadn't been rudely offered and are, quite frankly, more on point than any lazily "unnamed" source without citation.  Furthermore, when you're pitching a product to a site whose purpose is conversation and shared thought it's dubious to assume you won't have a conversation and be subjected to shared thoughts.  That all such conversation doesn't bend to your wish or whim is unfortunate (for you) but it is what it is.

Scotty, if you didn't want a volley you shouldn't have served.  The tone of the volleys has been questioning, not rude; though I'm willing to follow your lead on the tone.  I'm sorry if insecurities or other issues make you so sensitive to relatively general questioning.  But there are questions about this product relative to the assertions claimed for it.  Those aren't likely to stop.  "FYFI" (just to follow your lead).

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Let me get back to the important stuff now.................like watching the grass grow..............

[prodrag1320]

If you think there is an inherent problem with the HD system, then perhaps taking a look at a different way to do things is warranted.  I went to the S&S gear drive system, and have been very pleased in performance and reliability.  Hars to argue with S&S and their products.

agree`d,no matter who`s tesioner is used,its not a matter of if,but when they`ll fail

[timo482]

the way that i see all this boils down to something like this.

chains are way way cheaper mostly because they are more tolerant of small variations in the crank.. they are quieter than spur gears. helical timing gears require thrust bearings at crank and cam. so at the crank - its held by the output side and at the cam the cam plate - so helical are out. spur gears will last for eons - will the rest of the timing case make it that long? use a small cam [like the stock cam] to get more life out of it? cant get stock grinds in gear drive. if its not a stock grind its 500 more for tuning - minimum.

so in either case  - the lifters are the wild card - the week before my esp expires its getting new lifters - and many mech say to do new cams with the lifters - and new bearings with the cams - cant argue its just a pile of cash.

however in the argument over chains, tensioners, gears - id bet a case of beer that the cranks that are nearly perfect show less tensioner wear because the chain is not moving the tensioner each rev of the crank.

so is a double ram tensioner a performance item? or is its a way to get a wonky crank to work ok longer? hmmm

no pictures or proof but its what has always been on my mind. [i do a lot of machine work as a side job and today am finishing a set of 17 parts that are supposed to be plus or minus .0003 as a set - very aggravating and very time consuming]

to be clear if the crank is a bit off - the small timing gear is moving in a tiny orbit - the distance from gear to gear changes and the tensioner has to move in and out constantly - if the crank is perfect the tensioner will essentially never move as the engine is running. this is obviously a over simplification since the chain has momentum and will show its own vibration and not follow a straight path off the sprocket on the load side. but still, a perfect crank is going to provide a large chance that the chain drive will last a long time

gear drives on a perfect crank will obviously be the most durable set up. diesel engines for the most part have a gear accessory drive - rather than a belt drive - they use a belt usually for the alternator and the fan - but some drive those gear - it depends on the life cycle. and they cost 3 times as much for the same power and size.

if i was certain the lifters etc would last long enough to make the cash put out to do gear drive worth the money id do it - but the chain drive is soooooooo cheap and so tolerant of slop and mis alignment that hd and most mechanics take the "risk" that something else will be the fail first is so high that it doesn't pay. if a lifter fails so much else has to be redone that its moot.

show me a lifter that simply "will not fail period" and im interested.

my old bikes only went 30k miles before i had to take them apart - modifications got done at each time apart - the habit of messing with my bike started right there. on this bike i have so far left the engine and head pipes completely alone - will start doing propalactic work late this summer. but no hot rodding is in the cards its just too expensive, i want to ride it, not look at it in pieces in my garage. if i see SOLID evidence that gear drive and lifters would get me to 150,000 id do it - but so far i dont see it. and if that happened i want a gear drive cam that is near one of the stock grinds. ie long lasting ramp profile. solid evidence is bike x with 150,000 on it without a bolt turned - the rest is in my mind hearsay.

there is one bike with a evo engine that went 400k with a sidecar straight stock the whole time. id like to know its repair history. how long did stuff last run stock non stop?

to

[Twolanerider]

Let me get back to the important stuff now.................like watching the grass grow..............

[smiley1049]

At least now we have something constructive going on !


quote author=Twolanerider link=topic=74040.msg1126233#msg1126233 date=1366034896]

[/quote]

[porthole]

My tensioners, installed Around April 09, my guess about 25K

[porthole]

.

[porthole]

As a side note. One year after installing the cams, SE hydraulic cam plate kit etc I pulled the plate off to change the spring back to stock and check (too much oil pressure).
This is what the plate looked like. 8K or so.

[porthole]

And it looks like this now. Another 3 years and 17K+

[porthole]

And - since lifters were mentioned a few posts ago, this ............

When I did the cams in 2009 I used SE lifters. In an attempt to quiet down the sewing machine I put in S&S lifters with hydraulic limiters in 2012.
1 year later one lifter looks like this. This also happens to be the same lobe (front intake) that failed on Kathy's bike at MV last year. With the same cams (Z 575's), about the same install time and mileage.

[porthole]

.

[DCFIREMANN]

Amen to that Michael.  A few good friends, a few cold beers, a comfortable lift and the friendly lies and stories that accompany all that.  You can't get that dealing with shops and dealerships.  Have to play at home where every word is trusted (even if it's wrong!).

Exactally!!!! You gotta love "THE SHOP" It really doesn't any better!!!!

Duane I am on the phone with him as I type!!! Should have a small discount since we have to pay for shipping!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG