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Author Topic: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?  (Read 8470 times)

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RedDevil

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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2008, 01:12:41 PM »

:oops:  Didn't get it nuked in time.  ;)
[contents snipped because it resulted in too many characters]
Serious problems/issues.  No simple/easy solutions.  All we can do is wait and see who offers the best, in each person's opinion, plan to solve them.

Terry,
Sorry, that I pre-empted your nuke.   ;)  I hear everything you're saying and agree with practically everything you've said.  While I agree that healthcare in this country is running amuk, I don't feel it's the Federal Governments responsiblity (read raising taxes to pay for health insurance for anyone that can't afford it.)  Our social programs, and this is party independent, are badly abused and fraud runs rampant in them.  Adding another Government ran social program is only going to add to the mess.  I don't have the answer to the solution, but I've been stationed in countries with social medicine and that's not the answer.  Regulations to keep costs down and get affordable insurance is one potential avenue.  As far as the pharmaceutical companies go, I couldn't agree with you more...the big companies just gouge us to death.  When I had my staph infection, the only oral antibiotic I could take to reign it in cost $100/tablet and I had to take 14 of them.  My insurance even balked at that and wasn't going to approve getting them until my doctor explained, it's either $1400 for the pills and I discharge him, or I keep him in the hospital for another 4 days at $2000+/day.  The insurance doctor saw his point and approved the meds.  It's rediculous what they get for pills ... I think they're in cahoots with big oil.  I guess you can blame a market-based economy for that.  They'll keep charging whatever the market will bear.   I'm with you, we'll just have to see what happens.   I really hate this time every four years, because for once, I think it would be refreshing to hear a politician actually say something about what he/she wants to do and not point fingers at everyone else....all I hear coming out of all the politicos is blah, blah, blah, blah...nothing of substance.    Sorry to ramble...if you can't tell, I hate all politicians...so I guess in that sense I'm a true Independent.   8)

   :devil:
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Talon

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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2008, 01:25:48 PM »

Well, good jobs have been an issue since around the time NAFTA was signed, 1994. Not directly linked, but that was when large companies started looking at moving good paying jobs over seas. The numbers for employment haven't reflected the number of people work for less money, less or no benefits, or as contarctors. So these numbers haven't been reflecting the true state of employment for some time.

As for health care/prescription drugs, this is just another big mess. Many call for health care for all, but if you don't cause the prices to come down it won't help the lower middle class. If you take a person living pay check to pay check and tell them they need to pay, say $300 a month for health care they don't have now, then they have a $2500 deductable each year, they can't afford, they won't go to the doctor anyway, so now they are paying $300 more than they were and still can't go to the doctor!!!  The new Medicare perscription drug program is just more proof of big business controlling our government, Rep's from both sides have their hands in the pockets of the drug companies. I think the Congress is more at fault for the prescription drug problem then the President. Here's just a blurb from an article from 60 Minutes.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/29/60minutes/main2625305.shtml

 It certainly wasn't ugly for the drug lobby which invested more than $10 million in campaign contributions during the last election and has been a source of lucrative employment opportunities for congressmen when they leave office.

Former senators Dennis Deconcini, D-Ariz., and Steve Symms, R-Idaho, and former congressmen like Tom Downey, D-N.Y.; Vic Fazio, D-Calif.; Bill Paxon, R-N.Y., and former House Minority Leader Robert Michel, R-Ill., all registered as lobbyists for the drug industry and worked on the prescription drug bill.

This is why I say that it doesn't matter weather you a Democrate or Republican, there needs to be major changes in our Government. Sadly things will probably keep going as is, different problems, but still the same old statuesque. The rich get richer, the middle class carries the burden because they make to much to get any help, but not enough to be safe from unforeseen catastrophes! Several from this site in the not to distant past can attest to this!

 :soapbox:

That's my 5 cents, you can keep the extra 3 cents! Enough of the soapbox issues, hope it warms up so I can go for a ride!!! :2vrolijk_21:

 
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RedDevil

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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2008, 01:39:14 PM »

Well, good jobs ... but not enough to be safe from unforeseen catastrophes! Several from this site in the not to distant past can attest to this!

 :soapbox:

That's my 5 cents, you can keep the extra 3 cents! Enough of the soapbox issues, hope it warms up so I can go for a ride!!! :2vrolijk_21:

 

Amen to that Bro. ;) :2vrolijk_21:

    :devil:
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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2008, 01:45:57 PM »

Terry,
Sorry, that I pre-empted your nuke.   ;)  I hear everything you're saying and agree with practically everything you've said.  While I agree that healthcare in this country is running amuk, I don't feel it's the Federal Governments responsiblity (read raising taxes to pay for health insurance for anyone that can't afford it.)  Our social programs, and this is party independent, are badly abused and fraud runs rampant in them.  Adding another Government ran social program is only going to add to the mess.  I don't have the answer to the solution, but I've been stationed in countries with social medicine and that's not the answer.  Regulations to keep costs down and get affordable insurance is one potential avenue.  As far as the pharmaceutical companies go, I couldn't agree with you more...the big companies just gouge us to death.  When I had my staph infection, the only oral antibiotic I could take to reign it in cost $100/tablet and I had to take 14 of them.  My insurance even balked at that and wasn't going to approve getting them until my doctor explained, it's either $1400 for the pills and I discharge him, or I keep him in the hospital for another 4 days at $2000+/day.  The insurance doctor saw his point and approved the meds.  It's rediculous what they get for pills ... I think they're in cahoots with big oil.  I guess you can blame a market-based economy for that.  They'll keep charging whatever the market will bear.   I'm with you, we'll just have to see what happens.   I really hate this time every four years, because for once, I think it would be refreshing to hear a politician actually say something about what he/she wants to do and not point fingers at everyone else....all I hear coming out of all the politicos is blah, blah, blah, blah...nothing of substance.    Sorry to ramble...if you can't tell, I hate all politicians...so I guess in that sense I'm a true Independent.   8)

   :devil:

One thing I have been doing a little "studying" on is the electronic billing, etc for medical care...there is the potential for tremendous savings in that arena, from what I'm hearing/reading.  It is a long term solution, and will require some major investments, but the rewards down the road are potentially huge with regards to efficiency and $$$$ saved.

I really hate politics too...I work in a very "political" environment, get stabbed frequently, and challenge authority regularly over our own policy.  I am not the most popular person on campus because of my questioning, and in the scheme of things, I'm absolutely a peon.  I am not a management supporter, other than when they are doing the right thing...I am more an employee advocate...people in the rarified air of upper ranks, tend to have that portion of their brain that gives a chit about the "little people" quit functioning.  Probably for that reason, I take sides in the political arena more for the "have nots".

Regardless of what happens, we won't all be happy with every result...I do hope most of us in the country are happier in 4 years than we are now.


For now, F it...it's going to be 63 degrees and sunny here tomorrow afternoon, and I'm going to put my knees in the breeze... :bananarock: :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2008, 01:54:01 PM »

I've been doing a little studying too....

Get lobbyist the %$#@ out of Washington, make it illegal for elected officials to take anything from these companies, scrutinize and jobs that officials take for 5 years after they leave office, and prosecute any that take jobs directly linked to their voting records under this new law. I think you see a lot of change in cost of things!  ::)

Until you get the $$$$$$$$$$ out of Congress, things will remain the same! :-\
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RedDevil

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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2008, 01:55:38 PM »

One thing I have been doing a little "studying" on is the electronic billing, etc for medical care...there is the potential for tremendous savings in that arena, from what I'm hearing/reading.  It is a long term solution, and will require some major investments, but the rewards down the road are potentially huge with regards to efficiency and $$$$ saved.

I really hate politics too...I work in a very "political" environment, get stabbed frequently, and challenge authority regularly over our own policy.  I am not the most popular person on campus because of my questioning, and in the scheme of things, I'm absolutely a peon.  I am not a management supporter, other than when they are doing the right thing...I am more an employee advocate...people in the rarified air of upper ranks, tend to have that portion of their brain that gives a chit about the "little people" quit functioning.  Probably for that reason, I take sides in the political arena more for the "have nots".

Regardless of what happens, we won't all be happy with every result...I do hope most of us in the country are happier in 4 years than we are now.


For now, F it...it's going to be 63 degrees and sunny here tomorrow afternoon, and I'm going to put my knees in the breeze... :bananarock: :2vrolijk_21:


I'm with ya on that Terry, F it, let's get in the wind.  :2vrolijk_21: I work in the "Seat of Democracy" on a daily basis and unfortunately get more than my fair share of politicians and politcal appointees as bosses.  I'm kind of known as malcontent around the work space because I don't kiss the politico's a$$es.  

   :devil:
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sefatboyscott

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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2008, 12:59:23 AM »


And Obama is NOT a Muslim...period.  Please show one shred of factual evidence (not an e-mail rumor) to prove the man is a Muslim.  And I don't mean a quote by Rush Flemball, who makes a living off inflamatory remarks, and outright lies.  If you are fathered by a person who handles snakes in their religion, does that make you a snake handler too?



Obviously you do not know much about sharia law. It states that the son of a follower of Islam is Islam by way of birth.

I do understand your view because now we are looking at it from a Faith perspective. But if we are going to do that and use that logic we need to kick the Jews out of Isreal since they think it's a race thing not a Faith thing.........

just depends on who you ask, there are always two ways of looking at things

I am sure there are many who think that all Harleys should be black.......others like the Jester 06 Fatboys. Niether is wrong just have a different viewpoint.
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Twolanerider

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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2008, 03:12:37 AM »

Obviously you do not know much about sharia law. It states that the son of a follower of Islam is Islam by way of birth.


Scott, quit being so damned deterministic and picking and choosing details to jack up the choir.  The Rabbinical determination is that one is Jewish if a convert or born to a Jewish mother.  Muslim tradition and Sharia law say that one is Muslim if he is born to a Muslim father.  Apostasy is even considered punishable by death in the more extreme interpretations of Sharia law.  So those are "the rules." 

Bull.

What's it mean in the real world?  He was a kid born to a Kansan on US territory who bounced around the world some.  Big damn deal. 

If he lived in the middle east in a mixed marriage of a Jewish woman and a Muslim man (it happens) is he both Muslim and Jew?  Do Rabbinical and Sharia guidances coexist, cancel each other out or is there a wink and a nod and the family figures it out as they go?

People leave faiths.  It happens.  Fundamentalists of any faith may not like it.  God knows (pardon the pun) that evangelicals here have conniptions when it happens in their flock.

Those looking to shout from the rooftops may choose to ignore when basic human nature gets in the way of attracting attention by screaming like chicken little.  So the guy was born of a Muslim man who was non practicing then lived awhile longer in the household of another who leaned toward the radical.  Big deal.

The kid was also an American.  American traditions are that eventually when the kid isn't a kid anymore he picks for himself.  And he did.  Big damn deal.  No crisis of international conspiracy.  No fatwah against him for changing either. 

Hell (which is an odd thing to say when to discussing Jews and Muslims), even Imams can't agree on whether apostasy should actually be sanctioned or not.  So it almost never is.  I don't remember the verse but the 2nd Sura of the Koran quotes God saying "there should be no compulsion in religion."   

It is later pronouncements of Mohammed that (sometimes) suggest Muslims shouldn't be allowed to leave their faith.  Many Imams think Mohammed misinterpreted Allah (or was just having a bad day).  That's why outside of more radicalized discussions if someone leaves the faith they just quietly go; especially in Western societies.

If someone is looking for history to tar Obama with it's not his family's religious upbringing.  Truth be told he really didn't have much of one.  He was, however, someone who quickly and effectively fit in to Illinois statewide politics.  This is the state that almost guarantees its governors an indictment for something as part of those post-service retirement package. 

If someone doesn't like Obama then prosecute the case against his opionions and his policy choices, not the name his parents gave a little kid.  This is America.  We don't believe in the sins of the fathers inhabiting the children.  Everyone stands on their own, remember?

So quit twisting crap just for the hell of it.  It's obvious you're enjoying the audience.  But it's gotten boring. 

Obama is an American with a name that opportunistic or unthinking dinks will use against him.  George Washington really was the first President of the United States of America.  What the hell Admiralty had to do with any of that other blather the other night I don't have a freaking clue.   And you wrote of being a "rightwing firing lunatic" (or something like that); you don't have to try so hard to prove the latter by so poorly prosecuting the positions of the former.  It's embarassing to informed, analytic and thinking conservatives everywhere.
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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2008, 08:23:36 AM »

It's embarrassing to informed, analytic and thinking conservatives everywhere.

I can never be a true conservative because of that thinking deal.  Whenever I try that, all kinds of trouble starts & then I wake up &...

nevermind.


Note:  Did not post a pic of Hitlery as Hitler here, due to uncharacteristic restraint.
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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2008, 12:25:47 PM »

I can never be a true conservative because of that thinking deal.  Whenever I try that, all kinds of trouble starts & then I wake up &...

nevermind.


Note:  Did not post a pic of Hitlery as Hitler here, due to uncharacteristic restraint.


Iski, the trick is to only wake up long enough to eat :2vrolijk_21: .
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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2008, 01:17:41 PM »

 :) :orange: :mango: :bananarock: :apple: :carrot: :jalapeno: :cucumber: :pineapple: :pepper: :)
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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2008, 01:37:31 PM »

Which one is the Manchurian Candidate?  :nixweiss:
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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2008, 10:16:47 PM »

Don
     I'm not going to quote you because it's all rather lengthy and surprisingly for you almost opinionated. Not what I've come to expect from you. But as always you made a good case and offer sound advice EXCEPT, Obama doesn't have much of a track record to go on. It would appear that he hit the ground running as a Senator and his votes on the issues of the day have been calculated to him being where he's at today. He's been touted as the future of the Democratic Party since he took his first oath of office. I find all that very troubling. As to all of the fuss about his background, my only point in mentioning it was that I worry about an individual being elected who has a background that would make him sympathetic to Muslim Extremists. Not that he is one himself, I'm sure he's not, simply that he might go weak at the knees when it came time to make a decision involving extreme predjudice. I am sure you don't agree with me and that's ok. As a matter of fact, it's better than ok, it's the American way. But you know, as I read the various posts on threads on the site involving politics I see mostly the same as it's always been. Folks seem bent on smearing the other guy vice speaking up for their guy. I don't have a guy. Wish I did. It disturbs me greatly that I don't. I had seriously hoped someone would run for election I could get behind. Since Linda insists it's my civic duty to vote, I will end up voting for whomever I consider the lesser of two evils. That sucks, that sucks huge.

B B
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iski

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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2008, 01:29:35 AM »

Iski, the trick is to only wake up long enough to eat :2vrolijk_21: .

TLR - Ok, now you have me confused.  Not that hard to do, considering. Conservatives are sleepy & hungry?  Or they have narcolepsy & sleep very close to the refrigerator?   :nixweiss:


 
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Re: Speaking Of Hillary, Is This True?
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2008, 09:27:51 PM »

EXCEPT, Obama doesn't have much of a track record to go on. It would appear that he hit the ground running as a Senator

Brian, actually on much of what you said we don't disagree at all.  Not even a little bit.  As for Senator Obama I readily agree he's a Senatorial lightweight.  Freshman Senator preceded by a relatively limited amount of time in the Illinois legislature.  Very little national record to go on.  That makes it harder to judge the man.

Makes it even harder for me as I vote for Presidents first on their international and security agendas and only secondarily on the parts of their agenda that wholly or primarily non-security domestic.  Whether it's recognized or not the Congress controls the domestic agenda well enough that I vote for legislators based on that side of their coin.

Obama just doesn't have much of an foreign/security policy track record.  That's a tough thing to swallow at a time when the nation is at war.

Having said that he's a Senatorial lightweight doesn't necessrily mean he'd be a bad President.  They've come from State Gubernatorial mansions without having national lights on them before and done the job (and sometimes not so well either).  Nearly all Senators seem to have that Presidential glint in their eye.  Obama seems to have had it in mind since his DNC address a few years ago.  But the same lack of record that concerns you concerns me too. 



I worry about an individual being elected who has a background that would make him sympathetic to Muslim Extremists. Not that he is one himself, I'm sure he's not, simply that he might go weak at the knees when it came time to make a decision involving extreme predjudice. I am sure you don't agree with me and that's ok.

BB, this is something I don't worry about as you seem to.  If for no other reason then we simply can't know what motivations a man has in the back of his mind.  One could just as easily argue that he's less likely to show radial Islam any great mercy because doing so would make him appear somehow weak or biased based on a heritage that we at least generally agree he doesn't really have.  Sometimes have a history that might be seen as part of or leaning toward a policy choice allows some flexibility the other way.  After all, who would have expected a southern basically redneck Senator from Texas to lead the civil rights charge as he (LBJ) after Kennedy was shot? 

And at the time who else besides Nixon could have made the opening to China?  Our histories can't help us or hurt us.  Which they do depends on our character and insights.  In other words, we're back to judging the man (his character, not his personal heritage).  Just like it should be.



Folks seem bent on smearing the other guy vice speaking up for their guy. I don't have a guy. Wish I did. It disturbs me greatly that I don't.

And again we couldn't agree me.  We both recognize that prosecuted to its natural ends politics at that level is a blood sport.  So that it gets messy should not be unexpected.  But I still hate it when one side only tells me why to hate the other guy (especially when they do it stupidly or badly [because doing so is so insulting {and boring}]) rather than giving me reason to like my guy well enough that I should be willing to take the battle to the opponent for him.

It's easy (and lazy) to say who you hate and come up with all sorts of stupid or real reasons for doing so.  It takes a lot more work and much more reasoned analyses to find who you like; and why.  Not just someone that happens to be in the same party.  Not just someone that agrees on one signal issue.  But someone who, across the gamut of issues you're willing to reason and study, makes sense to your particular view of what is right and wrong.

I agree also that it's often tough to find the right guy (using the term generically).  I tend to be more conservative then you are.  Though on some issues you'd no doubt be surprised.  But I could care less about party affiliation.  Issue/policy is all that should drive the choice for chief executive. 


I had seriously hoped someone would run for election I could get behind. Since Linda insists it's my civic duty to vote, I will end up voting for whomever I consider the lesser of two evils. That sucks, that sucks huge.

B B
This cycle it is harder to get terribly excited about any of them.  That doesn't mean a choice doesn't have to be made though.  After all, greatness has all too often been thrust upon them when they never were perceived to carry it to begin with.  Just ask Lincoln or Truman.
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