Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Twolanerider]

Not that the Big Three have needed any help shooting themselves in the foot the last several years.  And only guessing here.  But it's at least possible that their travel to the Congressional hearings was only bad stylistically rather than from a business/cost perspective.

I know that GM has a corporate policy requiring it's most senior executives to fly charter or company aircraft to events such as hearings for security reasons.  It's a policy that could have been waved of course.  But we don't have a clue how many staff, security or ther personnel went with the senior execs who made the trip.  How many commercial tickets purchased within a week of travel come close to a company plane's travel costs?

Only saying that Congressmen sitting in hearings are not at all above throwing a cheap shot for PR effect.  It's a quite common tactic actually.

[tazmun]

 I know we love to rag on the auto industry, but they have NO clue on how to get out of the mess.
The people who can afford cars, buy them. They gave too much FREE credit to people who can't
really afford it. The people they need to buy their cars will never be able to, again because they
are MAXED out on their credit.  Heck, speaking of Harley, they were doing the same thing. I know
a few employee who are maxed out on credit, that still got a new bike. The mother company
was giving them "no payments" for a year, instead of their the employee discount. 

[spydglide]

Not that the Big Three have needed any help shooting themselves in the foot the last several years.  And only guessing here.  But it's at least possible that their travel to the Congressional hearings was only bad stylistically rather than from a business/cost perspective.

I know that GM has a corporate policy requiring it's most senior executives to fly charter or company aircraft to events such as hearings for security reasons.  It's a policy that could have been waved of course.  But we don't have a clue how many staff, security or ther personnel went with the senior execs who made the trip.  How many commercial tickets purchased within a week of travel come close to a company plane's travel costs?

Only saying that Congressmen sitting in hearings are not at all above throwing a cheap shot for PR effect.  It's a quite common tactic actually.

Absolutely correct.  The only thing is the obvious example of the disconnect with the average taxpayer that they're asking to bail them out after years of sorry  azzed management (and excessessssss in many realms)  aaaargh.  spyder

[RJ749]

Not what I heard.  I know one in WV that was told to build a new facility, or someone else would.  Fact.  'Course he's not in a squeeze, as he paid up for his new digs.  I've known this man for 30+ years, and I promise you he would not have spent the money if he didn't have to.  Later--HUBBARD

Hey Hub, I was a bit tongue in check.  The corporate A holes drove many a business man into big debt over the last 5-10 years.  That would be the They may come to regret it part, referring to the MoCo and the car companies.

I know of Porsche dealers forced to build that have never made one red cent since their new facilities have opened and they have been in them three or more years.

Regardless, I sure am not defending the MoCo on this one.

[RJ749]

How're things going for you Rog?  Hope everything is still going okay.

 

We're hangin in, but it is becoming a hang on more than hang in through the holidays and administration change over.  Not sure that the Feds will be able to turn this corner in the near future regardless of who is at the helm.

[RJ749]

I know we love to rag on the auto industry, but they have NO clue on how to get out of the mess.
The people who can afford cars, buy them. They gave too much FREE credit to people who can't
really afford it. The people they need to buy their cars will never be able to, again because they
are MAXED out on their credit.  Heck, speaking of Harley, they were doing the same thing. I know
a few employee who are maxed out on credit, that still got a new bike. The mother company
was giving them "no payments" for a year, instead of their the employee discount. 

No to defend corporate America, but what about the now $1.6 Billion the banks are getting, they're every bit at much at fault as anyone along with Wall Street, $25 billion to the car companies (although I imagine it won't be that in the end) for a "bridge loan" seems a lot less of a risk to taxpayers than backing worthless securities and home debt.

[tazmun]

No to defend corporate America, but what about the now $1.6 Billion the banks are getting, they're every bit at much at fault as anyone along with Wall Street, $25 billion to the car companies (although I imagine it won't be that in the end) for a "bridge loan" seems a lot less of a risk to taxpayers than backing worthless securities and home debt.

I don't think ANYONE who screws up should get a bail out. But remember it take 2 to make a deal!
Just remember, if a person walks into a bank, and asks for money to buy a Big car, Big house,
or best of all, a BIG motorcycle, and the bank says ok, because it's a win, win, I dont think I have to
pay for any of their stupidity. My daughter was told by a loan officer she could get a $200k loan!
She came back to us laughing, yea, if I don't want to eat! But MOST people want to LIVE for today, gotta
have it RFN!, so they jump at it. I'm real sorry for the car companies, but giving them any money is a waste,
because the writing is on the wall. If you can't sell a Chevy Cobalt, what do you think they are going to sell,
a $44,000 Tahoe, to a guy making $12.00/hr?
,

[Free]

I don't think ANYONE who screws up should get a bail out. But remember it take 2 to make a deal!
Just remember, if a person walks into a bank, and asks for money to buy a Big car, Big house,
or best of all, a BIG motorcycle, and the bank says ok, because it's a win, win, I dont think I have to
pay for any of their stupidity. My daughter was told by a loan officer she could get a $200k loan!
She came back to us laughing, yea, if I don't want to eat! But MOST people want to LIVE for today, gotta
have it RFN!, so they jump at it. I'm real sorry for the car companies, but giving them any money is a waste,
because the writing is on the wall. If you can't sell a Chevy Cobalt, what do you think they are going to sell,
a $44,000 Tahoe, to a guy making $12.00/hr?
,

Amen, brother - personal responsibility - what a concept.
my biggest problem with the bailout and all the entitlement programs is the moral hazard.  Once people begin to believe that the 5% should take care of the 95% and the government should take care of everyone, we lose our sense of ownership and responsibility.  My parents never blamed the government for their problems or demanded from the government.  We have lost sight of this IMO. Once we bailed out the financial institutions, its no surprise that everyone has their hand out.  All the failed businesses will now be subsidized by the profitable businesses (through taxes either directly or indirectly eventually through inflation from all the money we are printing).  We have really made a mess out of our country.

they say in family businesses that the first generation builds it, the second generation enjoys it and the third generation squanders it. i wonder if that is what is happening.

best

Free

[tazmun]

Amen, brother - personal responsibility - what a concept.
my biggest problem with the bailout and all the entitlement programs is the moral hazard.  Once people begin to believe that the 5% should take care of the 95% and the government should take care of everyone, we lose our sense of ownership and responsibility.  My parents never blamed the government for their problems or demanded from the government.  We have lost sight of this IMO. Once we bailed out the financial institutions, its no surprise that everyone has their hand out.  All the failed businesses will now be subsidized by the profitable businesses (through taxes either directly or indirectly eventually through inflation from all the money we are printing).  We have really made a mess out of our country.

they say in family businesses that the first generation builds it, the second generation enjoys it and the third generation squanders it. i wonder if that is what is happening.

best

Free

I'm REALLY going to like paying for all the pensions, that are Government BACKED!
Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have a pension, but when someone has to back it,
I think it's wrong. I believe in FREE enterprise, and the meaning of that is COMPETE
and when you can't, start looking for ways to do it.
I have a friend who worked for A.O. Smith, on the line making auto/truck frames.
All the overtime etc, cranked out $70/80k a year. Now he is a CPA, making a little
more then two thirds of that, because the company didn't want to compete.
That was 12 years ago.

[comfortablynumb]

The company I work for has laid off over 100,000 people over the last 7 years, Union and management. The Union had a pension plan and still does. the management had a pension plan,then the company picked a date and said that if you weren't an employee before Feb,1996. no more pension. The company has NEVER turned a profit. The Executive level-CEO,CFO etc., continued to receive compensation and bonuses in th 3-5 million dollar range. At our quarterly open house meetings, being a Union President, I would ask them how they could justify with a straight face, taking that kind of reward for doing such a horrible job, that is, not managing the business efficiently, and just laying off more people to compensate for the losses due to their ineptitude? With a straight face, and broadcast to our fellow employees worldwide, we were told that our company HAD to pay that kind of money in order hire and keep that same level of talent. I asked if it was the company's mission to pay for services that they obviously weren't getting? I was told that I just didn't understand the business model. I guess not. After a 3 year battle with the stockholders,of which I was one, we finally voted in Feb. to have the Comp and Bonus Committee restructure the bonuses to mirror the company's success. The CEO and Bored of Directors "merged" the company,(actually sold) to a competitor in France with the previous CEO remaining as CEO. This year a French national law effective Jan 1 2009, states that all bonuses and compensation MUST be porportional to the company's success. The CEO resigned 2 months ago with a 6.5 million dollar severance package. The French legislative body has asked that she return her "unearned" money. Neither she or her lawyers has bothered to respond. The simple answer to the question is- because they can. Sorry to ramble but if I was as bad at my job they would have fired me long ago, not reward me.

[hard10]

The company I work for has laid off over 100,000 people over the last 7 years, Union and management. The Union had a pension plan and still does. the management had a pension plan,then the company picked a date and said that if you weren't an employee before Feb,1996. no more pension. The company has NEVER turned a profit. The Executive level-CEO,CFO etc., continued to receive compensation and bonuses in th 3-5 million dollar range. At our quarterly open house meetings, being a Union President, I would ask them how they could justify with a straight face, taking that kind of reward for doing such a horrible job, that is, not managing the business efficiently, and just laying off more people to compensate for the losses due to their ineptitude? With a straight face, and broadcast to our fellow employees worldwide, we were told that our company HAD to pay that kind of money in order hire and keep that same level of talent. I asked if it was the company's mission to pay for services that they obviously weren't getting? I was told that I just didn't understand the business model. I guess not. After a 3 year battle with the stockholders,of which I was one, we finally voted in Feb. to have the Comp and Bonus Committee restructure the bonuses to mirror the company's success. The CEO and Bored of Directors "merged" the company,(actually sold) to a competitor in France with the previous CEO remaining as CEO. This year a French national law effective Jan 1 2009, states that all bonuses and compensation MUST be porportional to the company's success. The CEO resigned 2 months ago with a 6.5 million dollar severance package. The French legislative body has asked that she return her "unearned" money. Neither she or her lawyers has bothered to respond. The simple answer to the question is- because they can. Sorry to ramble but if I was as bad at my job they would have fired me long ago, not reward me.

CN, you have to tell us what company you worked for. How is it possible to even have 100,000 employees and not make a profit? Someone along the way has forgotten what it was that started this business. I don't care if you sell 'wigits' or air, at one point in time that was a commodity that your company was providing and has now lost sight of. It sounds like it may have gotten too big if they have to lay off 100,000 workers. How many people work there now? Did this company diversify into areas that they were not well educated in? A cobbler should not take on the task of building a skyscraper just because he knows how to hammer a shoe. Something is amiss here and this is what has gotten a lot of companies into trouble. Stick to what you know and do it well. Just ask Hubbard. He knows how to sell big trucks. I don't think I'm going to see him in Beaufort running a shrimp boat. With the Federal deregulation of the banking industry several years ago, bankers were looking for new products to sell that they had no idea about. This sounds like it may be the case in your scenario without know any of the facts.

[grc]

I'm REALLY going to like paying for all the pensions, that are Government BACKED!
Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have a pension, but when someone has to back it,
I think it's wrong. I believe in FREE enterprise, and the meaning of that is COMPETE
and when you can't, start looking for ways to do it.
I have a friend who worked for A.O. Smith, on the line making auto/truck frames.
All the overtime etc, cranked out $70/80k a year. Now he is a CPA, making a little
more then two thirds of that, because the company didn't want to compete.
That was 12 years ago.

Taz, the only pensions I'm aware of that are truly government backed are actual government pensions.  There is an agency that guarantees private employer pensions, but it isn't funded by the USA, it's funded by premiums paid by the participating companies, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation.  
http://www.pbgc.gov/
-------------------------------------------------------------
"PBGC is a federal corporation created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. It currently protects the pensions of nearly 44 million American workers and retirees in more than 29,000 private single-employer and multiemployer defined benefit pension plans. PBGC receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed by insurance premiums set by Congress and paid by sponsors of defined benefit plans, investment income, assets from pension plans trusteed by PBGC, and recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans."
-------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that the fearless leaders of our country have tweaked the rules on funding levels over the years to benefit big business (and therefore themselves) is what may lead to the need for Sugar Daddy to prop up this entity.  Pension trust funds are supposed to be 100% funded, based on actuarial estimates of each plans obligations.  Over the years, starting back in the 80's I believe, companies have cried poverty and the government has allowed them to either change the accounting rules for the funds or to actually pull money out of them.  Congress made changes in 2006 to force companies to fully fund their plans over the next several years, but we are already seeing companies crying to them about suspending required payments into the funds due to the poor economy (funny how those executive bonuses keep rolling though).  

This discussion came up once before, and once again I will share my opinion on the subject of pension plans.  Those of us who worked in companies with defined benefit pension plans did not enjoy the fat salaries of those folks who had to rely on their own savings or the various 401k, 403b, etc. plans.  The company included the cost of benefits and pensions when doing annual competitive salary studies, and I can personally assure you that my salary was significantly less than folks with similar duties and responsibilities in companies that didn't offer pensions.  In other words, my pension isn't some freebie from a benevolent employer that tax payers may have to subsidize; I earned every penny of it (and even funded part of it with my own extra contributions).  Even though my pension was 113% funded at the end of 2006, I'm just as nervous as those who had underfunded plans because I cannot trust our government and the bankruptcy courts to protect the little guy against the corporations.  Ask the retirees from the steel industry how well they were protected, as they take one or two jobs in their old age to make up for the screwing they received.

Jerry

[Free]

"PBGC receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed by insurance premiums set by Congress and paid by sponsors of defined benefit plans, investment income, assets from pension plans trusteed by PBGC, and recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans."

not yet, but they will. Congress will nationalize these if they collapse - no doubt about it. Another unintended consequence of our central planners in Washington.

Free

[naitram]

CN, you have to tell us what company you worked for. How is it possible to even have 100,000 employees and not make a profit? Someone along the way has forgotten what it was that started this business. I don't care if you sell 'wigits' or air, at one point in time that was a commodity that your company was providing and has now lost sight of. It sounds like it may have gotten too big if they have to lay off 100,000 workers. How many people work there now? Did this company diversify into areas that they were not well educated in? A cobbler should not take on the task of building a skyscraper just because he knows how to hammer a shoe. Something is amiss here and this is what has gotten a lot of companies into trouble. Stick to what you know and do it well. Just ask Hubbard. He knows how to sell big trucks. I don't think I'm going to see him in Beaufort running a shrimp boat. With the Federal deregulation of the banking industry several years ago, bankers were looking for new products to sell that they had no idea about. This sounds like it may be the case in your scenario without know any of the facts.

bad biz models. i know of at least on division that was shipping product, and underwriteing the loans on the product.  then when the bubble burst the customers were defaulting on the loans

[RedFXR2]

How is it possible to even have 100,000 employees and not make a profit?

Welllllll.  It could supply goods and services to the Government.

The company I work for has laid off over 100,000 people over the last 7 years, Union and management. .... The company has NEVER turned a profit. ....I would ask them how they could justify with a straight face, taking that kind of reward for doing such a horrible job, that is, not managing the business efficiently, and just laying off more people to compensate for the losses due to their ineptitude? With a straight face, and broadcast to our fellow employees worldwide, we were told that our company HAD to pay that kind of money in order hire and keep that same level of talent. I asked if it was the company's mission to pay for services that they obviously weren't getting? I was told that I just didn't understand the business model.

CN, you've got me wondering if I once worked for your employer.