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[Sean M Cary]

The country is not butthole deep in debt only because of these recent activities, nor the subprime lending fiasco.  Nor the bailout.  The elephant in the room that nobody wants to acknowledge is GW's obsession...the Iraq War.  I have lost count of how many billions of dollars we've had t

OIF is less then 5% of the GDP - do your math again (WWII was 50%, Korea 30-35%, Vietnam 15% and Desert Storm 10%).  And the money flowing to it is not in a vacuum, it comes back here in the form of salaries of the goods required to support it.  It's not like its spent and just goes into thin air.  War is a racket, but it is not one w/o returns to the economy.

Out of control spending in a welfare based government is where your tax dollar is flowing, and the last time I checked it was Congress that dictates what and where $$ is spent the President only signs the legislation, not create it.

[DCFIREMANN]

The country is not butthole deep in debt only because of these recent activities, nor the subprime lending fiasco.  Nor the bailout.  The elephant in the room that nobody wants to acknowledge is GW's obsession...the Iraq War.   I have lost count of how many billions of dollars we've had to borrow to fight that war, instead of the proper war in Afghanistan, but I think at last count it was quickly approaching 1 Trillion, and the currently monthly expenses are around 10 Billion, not including the interest we're paying on the borrowed money to fight the war.  Now we are stuck there, and cannot pull out without looking like failures.  Now, whoever wins the election is going to have to deal not only with a faltering economy, but also how to continue to pay the war expenses and debt incurred.

I don't care how you look at it, or how far you want to go back to try and prove that it was not GW's fault, blah, blah, HE has been in charge of things for the past 8 years, and had a Republican Legislative Branch for the vast majority of that time, so if something was broken, HE should have fixed it.  Trying to shift that responsibility onto past administrations does not hold water.  Whether you want to debate the reasons into the ground or not, some of the most prosperous years for the economy, in our history, were during the Clinton years, and regardless of accounting methodology, we were a hell of a lot better off in 1999 than we are in 2008.  Those are facts which cannot be denied. 

We can debate this stuff ad nauseum...the bottom line is The President gets both the blame and the credit for things.  Our reputation has been damaged worldwide by the arrogance, and frankly ignorance, of GW...the world's confidence in our economy, which has traditionally driven the rest of the world, has been shaken to the foundations.  I am not surprised.  The blame game can on on endlessly.  The future of the country depends on who steps up to the plate and trys to fix it, painful though it may be.  It is my opinion that the average working stiff out there is not going to put the party who they feel is responsible for making the mess back in charge.  The polls support this view, but it's funny how people only want to believe the polls when they support what they want to hear, and not the other direction.

Terry this is America and you have your right to your opinion. What I want to know is where were you on 9-11-2001???

You are so caught up in this Liberal propaganda BS you are blind to the fact why we are spending BILLIONS in the war. I promise you if you were right beside me on that day at 1030hrs you would have a different opinion. I PROMISE!!!

If Mr Clinton would of closed our borders instead of letting non US Citizens come into this country with little or no documentation and giving them more rights than we as Citizens have that day would be JUST ANOTHER DAY!!!!!

As far as our economy goes and who will step to the plate and fix it. I DON'T THINK WE WILL SEE THAT IN OUR LIFE TIME!!!!!  JMHO!!!!!

Sorry to rant about the war but I can tell you I am scared for life over that day JUST DOING MY JOB!!!!!!


Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Hoist!]

Terry this is America and you have your right to your opinion. What I want to know is where were you on 9-11-2001???

You are so caught up in this Liberal propaganda BS you are blind to the fact why we are spending BILLIONS in the war. I promise you if you were right beside me on that day at 1030hrs you would have a different opinion. I PROMISE!!!

If Mr Clinton would of closed our borders instead of giving non US Citizens come into this country with little or no documentation and giving them more rights than we as Citizens have that day would be JUST ANOTHER DAY!!!!!

As far as our economy goes and who will step to the plate and fix it. I DON'T THINK WE WILL SEE THAT IN OUR LIFE TIME!!!!!  JMHO!!!!!

Sorry to rant about the war but I can tell you I am scared for life over that day JUST DOING MY JOB!!!!!!


Be Safe

THE DAWG

Well said Mike! Anyone so close to what happened just wanted to KILL everyone of the Jihad idiots!!! We still do!!! I'm fully behind what we're doing there, but wish we were MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE about it! F political correctness. Time to make the world FULLY FEAR us again, and make it very clear that if you F with us, you'll cease to exist! And bring back Manifest Destiny!!! F what the world thinks! You're either with us or against us!!!

Hoist!

[Midnight Rider]

OIF is less then 5% of the GDP - do your math again (WWII was 50%, Korea 30-35%, Vietnam 15% and Desert Storm 10%).  And the money flowing to it is not in a vacuum, it comes back here in the form of salaries of the goods required to support it.  It's not like its spent and just goes into thin air.  War is a racket, but it is not one w/o returns to the economy.

Out of control spending in a welfare based government is where your tax dollar is flowing, and the last time I checked it was Congress that dictates what and where $$ is spent the President only signs the legislation, not create it.

GNP comparisons, considering the variables which have changes since WWII, is not a valid basis for debate, IMO.  You are correct, defense spending does create jobs and contributes to the overall economy, but overall, it's still an expense to the budget.  The President proposes the budget each year, if I'm not mistaken, and the Congress modifies/approves, then the President Vetoes/signs.  That's not counting the emergency spending requests coming out of the Executive branch as well.  

One could consider any government, regardless of type, to be a "welfare" based entity, by definition.

No matter...what's done is done, and what will be will be.  The pork that was added to the "rescue" bill, was on both sides of the aisle.  No way around it, IMO.

BTW....the children's wooden arrow deal was explained in a bit more detail this morning on the radio:  From what I heard, this bill has been floating around for a long time, waiting to get attached to something.  A few years ago, they levied a flat tax of $.39 on every arrow, instead of the traditional %....well this worked out great for those who make 10-12 dollar arrows like Ted Nugent uses, or most bow hunters.  But it sucked big ones for the guys making the $2.00 arrows for children's bow and arrows sets.  So the little guys making the cheaper wooden arrows got hit a lot harder than the guys making the more profitable expensive arrows.  You (I don't mean this directed at you, FM) decide whether it was a good thing or bad, and whether it should have been recified a long time ago to be more fair.

[Keats]

Remember it was the Republican president and Republican controlled congress of the last 6 out of 7 1/2 years that took a surplus from a Democratic president  and turned it into the largest debt ever. 

Trickle down doesn't work because you can't insure that the CEO's will share with the middle class.  Instead, if they can make more money out sourcing the jobs to improve the bottom line and improve shareholder value they will.  Reward corporations for keeping jobs here to offset labor savings abroad.  What's good for General Motors is no longer what's good for America. 

you can put that diatribe where the sun doesn't shine.......

To start a partisan battle on this is just plain stupid , ignorant, not informed and mostly dishonest....

just go away.....I do not want to hear this idiocy now.....

our country is in some deep chit and the one you can mostly blame is ourselves for not taking notice of what our

elected officials were doing to us.........right now I think a lot of discipline is in order for our survival and

we need to rid ourselves of any elected officials that think we should have, increase any

entitlements........we are going to have to dig ourselves out of this hole (a big one)

I am mad at both parties for they have not served us well, but the ones who will suffer the most will be those on the

bottom rung of societies economic ladder and now we have no resources to help them....

so just stop the partisan politics and get your head out of your rear end!

[Midnight Rider]

Terry this is America and you have your right to your opinion. What I want to know is where were you on 9-11-2001???

You are so caught up in this Liberal propaganda BS you are blind to the fact why we are spending BILLIONS in the war. I promise you if you were right beside me on that day at 1030hrs you would have a different opinion. I PROMISE!!!

If Mr Clinton would of closed our borders instead of letting non US Citizens come into this country with little or no documentation and giving them more rights than we as Citizens have that day would be JUST ANOTHER DAY!!!!!

As far as our economy goes and who will step to the plate and fix it. I DON'T THINK WE WILL SEE THAT IN OUR LIFE TIME!!!!!  JMHO!!!!!

Sorry to rant about the war but I can tell you I am scared for life over that day JUST DOING MY JOB!!!!!!


Be Safe

THE DAWG

Mike, I was at work, like most folks, and was horrified, like most folks.  And of course I don't know what it felt like to be there, because I wasn't.

HOWEVER, last I heard, those who were actually RESPONSIBLE for that terrible day are still alive and well, living in the mountains of Pakistan, and Al Queda is currently gaining strength BECAUSE we went into Iraq, and did not focus on where the real problem remains.  The public, and the Congress were LIED to, either on purpose, or through an unwillingness to listen to those around him, or both.  That is why we are currently in Iraq....there was absolutely NO evidence, and none was discovered, that Iraq, or Saddam, had ANYTHING at all to do with 9/11.  That is a historical fact.

Regarding propaganda...one side or the other does not have a monopoly on it.  The truth generally lies somewhere in the middle, and it's up to the individual to figure out which "truth" they choose to buy into.  Rush Limbaugh, nor his counterpart, whoever that may be, will tell things the way they want people to hear them.  There is as much conservative, right wing propoganda out there as there is any other kind.

[Hoist!]

Mike, I was at work, like most folks, and was horrified, like most folks.  And of course I don't know what it felt like to be there, because I wasn't.

HOWEVER, last I heard, those who were actually RESPONSIBLE for that terrible day are still alive and well, living in the mountains of Pakistan, and Al Queda is currently gaining strength BECAUSE we went into Iraq, and did not focus on where the real problem remains.  The public, and the Congress were LIED to, either on purpose, or through an unwillingness to listen to those around him, or both.  That is why we are currently in Iraq....there was absolutely NO evidence, and none was discovered, that Iraq, or Saddam, had ANYTHING at all to do with 9/11.  That is a historical fact.

Regarding propaganda...one side or the other does not have a monopoly on it.  The truth generally lies somewhere in the middle, and it's up to the individual to figure out which "truth" they choose to buy into.  Rush Limbaugh, nor his counterpart, whoever that may be, will tell things the way they want people to hear them.  There is as much conservative, right wing propoganda out there as there is any other kind.

Sorry man, they're all part of our problem. That's why we're being way too soft! Said it before, I'll say it again! We should'a started in Turkey and took EVERYTHING over from there to the Mediterranean! Put an American Flag on every oil well, and put Israel in charge of the whole regoin just to piss em off! Then tell em to try to F with us 1 more time! I still don't know WTF we're being nice to Pakistan, where they all hide now! All they can do is keep changing hiding places. Buncha PUSSIES!!! Now we worry about Iran and N Korea!!! F that chit!!! We fear no one and should do what we need to to reinforce that to the rest of the world each and every day!!! FTP!!! How's that for a Liberal approach!

Hoist!

[Free]

OIF is less then 5% of the GDP - do your math again (WWII was 50%, Korea 30-35%, Vietnam 15% and Desert Storm 10%).  And the money flowing to it is not in a vacuum, it comes back here in the form of salaries of the goods required to support it.  It's not like its spent and just goes into thin air.  War is a racket, but it is not one w/o returns to the economy.

Out of control spending in a welfare based government is where your tax dollar is flowing, and the last time I checked it was Congress that dictates what and where $$ is spent the President only signs the legislation, not create it.

I think you need to be careful about linking military spending to the GDP which is an argument that is always made by supporters of higher military spending. Comparing any spending to the GDP tells you the expense burden relative to the economy, but it tells you nothing about the burden the spending puts on U.S. taxpayers. Although we may be able to absorb higher military spending, the question is whether the current spending is necessary and whether we are funding the proper priorities. Our GDP is overstated given the recent asset-bubble and such comparisons tend to be made when the economy is healthy. And be careful for what you wish for because if you argue that military spending should be a certain portion of GDP, then in two years when GDP is drastically reduced, would you then be okay with a drastic reduction in military spending?

Free

[miker]

The US should have told the House of Saud to get their house in order 30 years ago.
The Wabbist movement is from SA and started to take root after the US backed the jihaddist in the Russian debacle in Afganistan.
Most of the loonies that flew those planes were Saudi, no?
This is a US/Saudi issue nothing more.

They should be told one last time, reign it in or else...
Then glow em, starting in SA...All of them.
 

[Sean M Cary]

I think you need to be careful about linking military spending to the GDP which is an argument that is always made by supporters of higher military spending. Comparing any spending to the GDP tells you the expense burden relative to the economy, but it tells you nothing about the burden the spending puts on U.S. taxpayers. Although we may be able to absorb higher military spending, the question is whether the current spending is necessary and whether we are funding the proper priorities. Our GDP is overstated given the recent asset-bubble and such comparisons tend to be made when the economy is healthy. And be careful for what you wish for because if you argue that military spending should be a certain portion of GDP, then in two years when GDP is drastically reduced, would you then be okay with a drastic reduction in military spending?

Free

Not sure of what you consider a priority, but having been in and around the CENTCOM AOR for most of my 19 years in the Marine Corps, I consider the death of any Islamofascist a good thing. 

And I would rather travel to a$$hole parts of the world on your and my kids behalf to have them die elsewhere (vice planes into our homeleand)...so pretty good spending in my opinion. 

Sean

[BLM777]

           

et tu Brute

B B

The country is not butthole deep in debt only because of these recent activities, nor the subprime lending fiasco.  Nor the bailout.  The elephant in the room that nobody wants to acknowledge is GW's obsession...the Iraq War.

Way too much time on MSNBC I hope .........  first impression was that you may have ingested your avatar.......psilocybian?

[Midnight Rider]

Way too much time on MSNBC I hope .........  first impression was that you may have ingested your avatar.......psilocybian?

Not in recent history, B.

[Sean M Cary]

The US should have told the House of Saud to get their house in order 30 years ago.
The Wabbist movement is from SA and started to take root after the US backed the jihaddist in the Russian debacle in Afganistan.
Most of the loonies that flew those planes were Saudi, no?
This is a US/Saudi issue nothing more.

They should be told one last time, reign it in or else...
Then glow em, starting in SA...All of them.
 

Wahabbism is a serious flaw in the world of Islam - over 50% of the followers are illiterate and only interpret the Koran by their clerics. 

Shia's have Twelvers - same kind of fanatics (Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is one), believers in the resurrection of the 12th Imam.

Extremism in any form is wrong...like those jackass baptists in Kansas who say God hates Soldiers, s, etc etc...

Sean

[skreminegul07]

Remember it was the Republican president and Republican controlled congress of the last 6 out of 7 1/2 years that took a surplus from a Democratic president  and turned it into the largest debt ever. 
Trickle down doesn't work because you can't insure that the CEO's will share with the middle class.  Instead, if they can make more money out sourcing the jobs to improve the bottom line and improve shareholder value they will.  Reward corporations for keeping jobs here to offset labor savings abroad.  What's good for General Motors is no longer what's good for America. 

Correct, Bubba Clinton decimated the military to save money.....then we were attacked......then GW had to spend money to fix the military.   And by the way, while we were closing bases, the Russians started to rebuild their military.  China and North Korea never mssed a beat.

The dot com bubble pop happened under Clinton.

[Sean M Cary]

Correct, Bubba Clinton decimated the military to save money.....then we were attacked......then GW had to spend money to fix the military.   And by the way, while we were closing bases, the Russians started to rebuild their military.  China and North Korea never mssed a beat.

The dot com bubble pop happened under Clinton.

man, that is the truth.  When I came in in 1990, we (the USMC) were at over 200k.  When I left (involuntarily in 94 due to force reductions) we were at 174K.

Now we are going up to a somewhat "war manning" of 202k...