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[ultrafxr]

GNP comparisons, considering the variables which have changes since WWII, is not a valid basis for debate, IMO.  You are correct, defense spending does create jobs and contributes to the overall economy, but overall, it's still an expense to the budget.  The President proposes the budget each year, if I'm not mistaken, and the Congress modifies/approves, then the President Vetoes/signs.  That's not counting the emergency spending requests coming out of the Executive branch as well.  

One could consider any government, regardless of type, to be a "welfare" based entity, by definition.

No matter...what's done is done, and what will be will be.  The pork that was added to the "rescue" bill, was on both sides of the aisle.  No way around it, IMO.

BTW....the children's wooden arrow deal was explained in a bit more detail this morning on the radio:  From what I heard, this bill has been floating around for a long time, waiting to get attached to something.  A few years ago, they levied a flat tax of $.39 on every arrow, instead of the traditional %....well this worked out great for those who make 10-12 dollar arrows like Ted Nugent uses, or most bow hunters.  But it sucked big ones for the guys making the $2.00 arrows for children's bow and arrows sets.  So the little guys making the cheaper wooden arrows got hit a lot harder than the guys making the more profitable expensive arrows.  You (I don't mean this directed at you, FM) decide whether it was a good thing or bad, and whether it should have been recified a long time ago to be more fair.

That's what I read also, but the rest of the story is that it is an excise tax - the mfgr just collects it like sales tax and passes it on to the govt.  It has absolutely no benefit to the mfgr, period, end of story.  And it was levied only on mfgrs in the US so the chicoms can send their cheap ass arrows over here and there is not such tax levied.  Chit I do NOT call this pork or a giveaway.  It is simple economic justice and withdraws an excise tax that never should have been levied.

[Midnight Rider]

That's what I read also, but the rest of the story is that it is an excise tax - the mfgr just collects it like sales tax and passes it on to the govt.  It has absolutely no benefit to the mfgr, period, end of story.  And it was levied only on mfgrs in the US so the chicoms can send their cheap ass arrows over here and there is not such tax levied.  Chit I do NOT call this pork or a giveaway.  It is simple economic justice and withdraws an excise tax that never should have been levied.

That was my point, Jerry, though you stated it better.  I missed the excise tax part of the discussion.

[DCFIREMANN]

Mike, I was at work, like most folks, and was horrified, like most folks.  And of course I don't know what it felt like to be there, because I wasn't.

HOWEVER, last I heard, those who were actually RESPONSIBLE for that terrible day are still alive and well, living in the mountains of Pakistan, and Al Queda is currently gaining strength BECAUSE we went into Iraq, and did not focus on where the real problem remains.  The public, and the Congress were LIED to, either on purpose, or through an unwillingness to listen to those around him, or both.  That is why we are currently in Iraq....there was absolutely NO evidence, and none was discovered, that Iraq, or Saddam, had ANYTHING at all to do with 9/11.  That is a historical fact.
Regarding propaganda...one side or the other does not have a monopoly on it.  The truth generally lies somewhere in the middle, and it's up to the individual to figure out which "truth" they choose to buy into.  Rush Limbaugh, nor his counterpart, whoever that may be, will tell things the way they want people to hear them.  There is as much conservative, right wing propoganda out there as there is any other kind.

Terry when the events of 9/11 happened I was assigned to the SPECIAL OPERATIONS DIVISION of THE DISTRICT of COLUMBIA FIRE DEPARTMENT. I can tell you I drilled with units from Quantico Virginia. These units were Federal Units. I can also tell you I was privileged to information you and most of America was not. I can tell you for a fact you statements are VERY INCORRECT.

You can believe anything the Liberal media wants you to believe. I can bet you the Liberal Media never talked about a stolen 500 lb cylinder of  S$%#&* C*&%^$# that we moved from above Metro Center. Metro Center is the hub for Washington DC's subway system. It was in a cube van and set up to feed the tunnel on a Monday Morning. If they (who ever it was) were successful it would of killed over 10,000 people. 

I am sorry to rant about this and other incidents. It has just left a very sour taste in my mouth. You may think you are safe in Bumm F$%K where ever you live but I assure you are not. This country and many others are in grave danger. This country's financial problems are a small part of our problems.  Remember this war is not about OIL it is all about RELIGION. Please EVERYONE think how you are going to vote this year before you do it.

As always I am not afraid to say I LOVE MY COUNTRY and I LOVE MY JOB!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Free]

Terry when the events of 9/11 happened I was assigned to the SPECIAL OPERATIONS DIVISION of THE DISTRICT of COLUMBIA FIRE DEPARTMENT. I can tell you I drilled with units from Quantico Virginia. These units were Federal Units. I can also tell you I was privileged to information you and most of America was not. I can tell you for a fact you statements are VERY INCORRECT.

You can believe anything the Liberal media wants you to believe. I can bet you the Liberal Media never talked about a stolen 500 lb cylinder of  S$%#&* C*&%^$# that we moved from above Metro Center. Metro Center is the hub for Washington DC's subway system. It was in a cube van and set up to feed the tunnel on a Monday Morning. If they (who ever it was) were successful it would of killed over 10,000 people. 

I am sorry to rant about this and other incidents. It has just left a very sour taste in my mouth. You may think you are safe in Bumm F$%K where ever you live but I assure you are not. This country and many others are in grave danger. This country's financial problems are a small part of our problems.  Remember this war is not about OIL it is all about RELIGION. Please EVERYONE think how you are going to vote this year before you do it.

As always I am not afraid to say I LOVE MY COUNTRY and I LOVE MY JOB!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

I think Midnight Rider's comments are correct. I also believe that this country's financial problems are the biggest threat to our country by far.

Free

[FLSTFI Dave]

Remember it was the Republican president and Republican controlled congress of the last 6 out of 7 1/2 years that took a surplus from a Democratic president  and turned it into the largest debt ever. 

Trickle down doesn't work because you can't insure that the CEO's will share with the middle class.  Instead, if they can make more money out sourcing the jobs to improve the bottom line and improve shareholder value they will.  Reward corporations for keeping jobs here to offset labor savings abroad.  What's good for General Motors is no longer what's good for America. 

The sub prime mess that caused this whole financial melt down was caused by Democrats.  The Bill Clinton Administration to be exact.  Here is an article posted in the NYT Sept 30, 1999 about Clintons pressure on Fannie to write sub prime loans, and loans to people with low income and bad credit.....

In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.

Isn.t this guy Franklin D. Raines, one of Obama's financial advisors....

''Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer. ''Yet there remain too many borrowers whose credit is just a notch below what our underwriting has required who have been relegated to paying significantly higher mortgage rates in the so-called subprime market.''

  And he was behind all the bad paper at Fannie causing their melt down....

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0DE7DB153EF933A0575AC0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

Barny Franks Gay lover was a senior exec there at this time, while Franks was the head of the Senate Finance commity over Fannie...

Good ol dems caused this.  The NYT in 1999 precicted this financial melt down back in 1999

[DCFIREMANN]

I think Midnight Rider's comments are correct. I also believe that this country's financial problems are the biggest threat to our country by far.

Free

Free I don't disagree with Terry or you either about our financial problems. What I disagree with Terry about is why we are fighting the war. We are spending money on a war we would not be fighting if we had tightened our borders years ago. I also disagree with giving non US Citizens in this country SOCIAL BENEFITS. It is costing us as much if not each month as the war.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[spydglide]

I thought is was interesting when the CEO of Wells Fargo Bank was interviewed and asked how our Country got into this mess and his opinion is that it could be summed up in one word: GREED.  He said his bank lost a great deal of money by not participating in the loans that have caused the bank failures and the mess that most are in now.  Hard to just blame either political party regardless of your alliance. The same holds true for not dealing with the illegal immigrants problem......ea. side has had the time in control to address this problem but haven't done so and allowed it to continue to escalate.  I may be naive, but I would think that securing our borders would help in the fight against terrorism.    spyder

[Robmay]

I thought is was interesting when the CEO of Wells Fargo Bank was interviewed and asked how our Country got into this mess and his opinion is that it could be summed up in one word: GREED.  He said his bank lost a great deal of money by not participating in the loans that have caused the bank failures and the mess that most are in now.  Hard to just blame either political party regardless of your alliance. The same holds true for not dealing with the illegal immigrants problem......ea. side has had the time in control to address this problem but haven't done so and allowed it to continue to escalate.  I may be naive, but I would think that securing our borders would help in the fight against terrorism.    spyder

I agree.

[Free]

Free I don't disagree with Terry or you either about ire financial problems. What I disagree with Terry about is why we are fighting the war. We are spending money on a war we would not be fighting if we had tightened our borders years ago. I also disagree with giving non US Citizens in this country SOCIAL BENEFITS. It is costing us as much if not each month as the war.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

cant argue with that.
what is the purpose of laws if we cant enforce them. Its really amazing that we cant control our borders!

Free

[greglyon]

Good ol dems caused this.  The NYT in 1999 precicted this financial melt down back in 1999


[/quote]

Thanks for the post. Perhaps lending to the less qualified coupled with little or no regulation caused a good part of this mess.  First time i have seen anyone quote the NYT as an authority on this site.

[Free]

I thought is was interesting when the CEO of Wells Fargo Bank was interviewed and asked how our Country got into this mess and his opinion is that it could be summed up in one word: GREED.  He said his bank lost a great deal of money by not participating in the loans that have caused the bank failures and the mess that most are in now.  Hard to just blame either political party regardless of your alliance. The same holds true for not dealing with the illegal immigrants problem......ea. side has had the time in control to address this problem but haven't done so and allowed it to continue to escalate.  I may be naive, but I would think that securing our borders would help in the fight against terrorism.    spyder

Greed will always be front and center in a capitalist market. We have to expect that. What we also need to expect is that those who are greedy and take excessive risk can lose everything and should be allowed to. Its when government gets in the middle of it - such as deciding that everyone should own a house where it gets mucked up. If the government stayed out of it, then there might be a correction/recession as there always are but it wouldnt be the mess we are in now.

Free

[Midnight Rider]

Good ol dems caused this.  The NYT in 1999 precicted this financial melt down back in 1999




Thanks for the post. Perhaps lending to the less qualified coupled with little or no regulation caused a good part of this mess.  First time i have seen anyone quote the NYT as an authority on this site.

 

[Capo]

I thought is was interesting when the CEO of Wells Fargo Bank was interviewed and asked how our Country got into this mess and his opinion is that it could be summed up in one word: GREED.  He said his bank lost a great deal of money by not participating in the loans that have caused the bank failures and the mess that most are in now.  Hard to just blame either political party regardless of your alliance. The same holds true for not dealing with the illegal immigrants problem......ea. side has had the time in control to address this problem but haven't done so and allowed it to continue to escalate.  I may be naive, but I would think that securing our borders would help in the fight against terrorism.    spyder

Agreed. Greed is the root of this mess, coupled with the belief that real estate would not go down and laws from the 1920's that are glacial in reaction to the possibilities as a result of the technological advances since 1987 and the Monday 20% crash tied to the internet. The correction and changes in law will affect the greediest (read HEDGE funds) and less scrupulous (read Sell short) Wall street and off shore pinkos! IMO we are in the short term squeezed and the medium to long term infinitely better off so long as the book gets a rewrite now.

[spydglide]

Agreed. Greed is the root of this mess, coupled with the belief that real estate would not go down and laws from the 1920's that are glacial in reaction to the possibilities as a result of the technological advances since 1987 and the Monday 20% crash tied to the internet. The correction and changes in law will affect the greediest (read HEDGE funds) and less scrupulous (read Sell short) Wall street and off shore pinkos! IMO we are in the short term squeezed and the medium to long term infinitely better off so long as the book gets a rewrite now.

.......the 'markets'  ~~ only 'legal' games in town!    har!  spyder

[hunter]

I thought is was interesting when the CEO of Wells Fargo Bank was interviewed and asked how our Country got into this mess and his opinion is that it could be summed up in one word: GREED.  He said his bank lost a great deal of money by not participating in the loans that have caused the bank failures and the mess that most are in now.  Hard to just blame either political party regardless of your alliance. The same holds true for not dealing with the illegal immigrants problem......ea. side has had the time in control to address this problem but haven't done so and allowed it to continue to escalate.  I may be naive, but I would think that securing our borders would help in the fight against terrorism.    spyder

Greed mixed with arrogance.  The deadly combination that caused it.

It's like Insurance companies sell town houses with their own financing built on low ground in Louisiana and also sell flood insurance to those home owners.
Then after hurricane hits the area, they turn around and claim they don't have money to cover property loses and justify their action by saying they didn't think it would happen. 
Greed and arrogance due to lack of checks and balances.