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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: kevin_n on October 08, 2020, 08:39:43 PM

Title: Lifters (I know)
Post by: kevin_n on October 08, 2020, 08:39:43 PM
My 16 has 18,xxx miles on it. I am thinking of having the lifters replaced. I talked to my Indy about it and he thinks there really isn't a need for it, but he will change them if I want him to. So I am unsure what I want to do. I have read a few of the past threads and some people change them for piece of mind and other because they have to.

I use to have the cold start tick but I switched to royal purple oil two years ago and the cold start tick is gone, there is no noise at all, ever. Should I spend the money to replace them or just wait? He uses fueling lifters in his builds and that's what would go in. If I have them replaced will it be good or is this something that will need to be done every 20k or so? Just not sure what path I want to take.

Thanks
Kevin
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: timo482 on October 08, 2020, 09:05:44 PM
just change the lifters, its pretty cheap and then its done.. if you pull the tank and covers the whole cost is less than 200 ... well i did my own labor. its pretty easy actually.  lots of folks still say not to do it - then you get to do a whole engine when they fail.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: spence on October 09, 2020, 06:47:46 AM
When I had my 16 CVO Limited the lifters went at 20k and then 36k, traded in at 52k but probably would have needed them soon again because the Harley lifters in the 110's are junk, had the extended warranty so only cost 50 bucks.  So I would change them and if doing yourself put S&S in there and be done with it.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: HD Street Performance on October 09, 2020, 09:23:05 AM
My 16 has 18,xxx miles on it. I am thinking of having the lifters replaced. I talked to my Indy about it and he thinks there really isn't a need for it, but he will change them if I want him to. So I am unsure what I want to do. I have read a few of the past threads and some people change them for piece of mind and other because they have to.

I use to have the cold start tick but I switched to royal purple oil two years ago and the cold start tick is gone, there is no noise at all, ever. Should I spend the money to replace them or just wait? He uses fueling lifters in his builds and that's what would go in. If I have them replaced will it be good or is this something that will need to be done every 20k or so? Just not sure what path I want to take.

Thanks
Kevin
I suggest you get in touch with Bob Thoma, Razorback Performance, 715.985.2236
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: fastfreddy on October 09, 2020, 05:43:30 PM
i have changed mine twice now on my 16, 52k miles. its easy an easy task, i reused stock push rods and gaskets both times (got lucky and no leaks yet) takes about 3 hours for me. im a rookie and you tube makes it a no brainer
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: mslcpa on October 10, 2020, 02:34:44 PM
Stock lifter failed at 24K on 2010 FLHXSE and replaced, with necessary repairs due to failure, under warranty. Replaced at 44K with S&S lifters and adjustable pushrods. Replaced again at 69K and will do so each 24K as long as I have the bike. Relatively cheap preventative maintenance.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: lowflight on October 10, 2020, 06:26:57 PM
If it was mine they would have already been changed. You are taking a chance running them and it really doesn't cost that much compared to an engine.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: Timbuck2 on October 13, 2020, 11:37:38 PM
If it was mine they would have already been changed. You are taking a chance running them and it really doesn't cost that much compared to an engine.

+1
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: kevin_n on October 14, 2020, 09:10:23 PM
Dropping the bike off Friday to have the lifters changed out.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: longlast on October 16, 2020, 08:53:28 AM
Dropping the bike off Friday to have the lifters changed out.

Curious,....changed out with what?

I'm no expert compared to others on here, but it's my understanding that it's not so much the lifters that fail due to poor quality of lifter but a combination of heavy valve springs in the 110 motor plus the 255 cams that have aggressive  lobes that do the lifters in.
 I've read about the stock cams being removed and a bolt in cam set with less aggressive lobes installed that deliver good performance and saves on continuous lifter replacement.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: kevin_n on October 16, 2020, 10:28:18 AM
This time it's just lifters and push rods. I'm thinking of changing the cam in the future just not now.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: ultra13 on October 16, 2020, 10:42:57 AM
Replaced mine at 20,000 on my 13'. As also did my own with S&S. Very happy and quieter. While your in there replace the oil breather filters.... Money ahead..
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: timo482 on October 16, 2020, 07:19:17 PM
on a stock bike - any cam change requires a tune.. that's 500 bux.

so whatever cost for the cam and work - add the cost of a tune.

the 255 cam is THE BEST under 75mph.. if you ride at speeds higher than that - there are better cams.

i run a 255 cam.. its great - and ill change the lifters every 20 k or less
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: vtwinjim on October 17, 2020, 11:51:40 AM
Lifters and cams replaced under ESP at 22,000 miles.
Motor rebuilt under ESP at around 25,000.

I just changed out my lifters and added adjustable push rods at 45,000. Bike was running great; just didn't trust the lifters.
Sure enough, one lifter was just starting to go out. Roller had excess movement. Probably needle bearings in roller going bad. Who knows how much damage would have occurred if I waited until I started to hear noise.

Changing the lifters every 25,000 miles or so is just like buying insurance. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

You're making the wise choice.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: lowflight on October 17, 2020, 02:44:31 PM
The 110 is very well known for it's lifter issue. As I read about this problem for years I have listened to the folks that do lots of engines, and work on them almost everyday. It is a combination of things, so when the time comes do yourself a favor and address that combination: Oiling, Lifters, Cam Ramp, Valve Spring pressure.

I have done a few like this and I like the results. As far as the oiling is concerned, put in a good cam plate and oil pump. Personally I like S&S the plate allows for better oiling overall and you will also notice a difference on your oil pressure. The other stuff, everybody likes what they like and there are lots of good products.

Good Luck
 
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: ultra13 on October 18, 2020, 03:36:03 PM
P.S.  Don't forget your rocker lockers.... ;D
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: HD Street Performance on October 18, 2020, 03:41:58 PM
There seems to be a pervasive idea that the stock oem cam plate  oil pump, and tensioner need to be replaced.  I am not onboard for most builds.  The stock breather system can only handle so much so where does this added volume end up? A 3 stage pump is an upgrade but if it were my money on all but the highest end builds I would inspect and run stock parts.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: kevin_n on October 21, 2020, 06:47:17 PM
Just lifters and push rods. He said he will inspect everything while he is in there. I forgot about rocker lockers, maybe next time.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: sadunbar on October 22, 2020, 08:42:06 PM
Curious,....changed out with what?

I'm no expert compared to others on here, but it's my understanding that it's not so much the lifters that fail due to poor quality of lifter but a combination of heavy valve springs in the 110 motor plus the 255 cams that have aggressive  lobes that do the lifters in.
 I've read about the stock cams being removed and a bolt in cam set with less aggressive lobes installed that deliver good performance and saves on continuous lifter replacement.

My experience has been that regardless of cam or lifters, I end up having to replace lifters on a regular schedule...
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: longlast on October 22, 2020, 10:32:09 PM
My experience has been that regardless of cam or lifters, I end up having to replace lifters on a regular schedule...

??,....what's your regular schedule?

What make do you use?
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: sadunbar on November 01, 2020, 03:54:19 PM
??,....what's your regular schedule?

What make do you use?

I typically use this bike for long trips.  Not to much local riding with it.  "Long trip" generally means 6,500/8,500 miles or so typically in the Rocky Mountains, two up pulling a Bushtec...  I start with new lifters and generally have lifter noise at start up by the end of the trip.  I have reduced valve spring pressure, installed a S&S camplate/oil pump, and run a relatively mild cam with gentle ramps and reasonable lift...  I've used about every brand lifter made, all with very similar results.  To answer your question, I change lifters about every 6,000 to 8,000 miles.  About every other oil change.  Which is ridiculous...
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: HD Street Performance on November 02, 2020, 01:42:14 PM
So upon changing them have you disassembled them for a forensic analysis? Do you think the piston jet(s) may be leaking, stuck open. This might explain the first start ticking. Not doubting your abilities just saying this sucks and thinking a little outside the box looking for a solution.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: sadunbar on November 04, 2020, 08:13:08 PM
So upon changing them have you disassembled them for a forensic analysis? Do you think the piston jet(s) may be leaking, stuck open. This might explain the first start ticking. Not doubting your abilities just saying this sucks and thinking a little outside the box looking for a solution.

I checked the piston jets for both leaking and function early one and found them working as intended.  I even removed the 110 and installed a 120 and have the very same lifter life.  Something inherent to the basic design, I imagine Harley likely knows the answer....  It would just be to expensive to them to admit...
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: Ron_Derheim on November 13, 2020, 11:57:34 AM
Hello all. I have a 16 CVO Street with 16k miles and I just shredded a lifter and caused a bunch of damage in the case. Pretty sure it's not under warranty I'm not the original owner. Does anybody know how many needles are in a lifter bearing? I'm trying to account for the missing pieces. Any help would be awesome. Thank you
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: HD Street Performance on November 13, 2020, 12:23:49 PM
Pull the sump plug and flush, they will come out. You have bigger issues and the whole system needs to be flushed, a major teardown, in my opinion
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: Twolanerider on November 13, 2020, 01:34:22 PM
Hello all. I have a 16 CVO Street with 16k miles and I just shredded a lifter and caused a bunch of damage in the case. Pretty sure it's not under warranty I'm not the original owner. Does anybody know how many needles are in a lifter bearing? I'm trying to account for the missing pieces. Any help would be awesome. Thank you


Tracking big pieces out the sump is an trip not worth making.  For every big piece you find there will be many small or smaller that you won't see or find that will continue doing damage.  With that damage it's time to break the system open from oil cooler to oil pan.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: timo482 on November 13, 2020, 06:25:03 PM
and this is why i changed lifters, pretty cheap, pretty easy... i took the tank off route so i have 99% stock everything. when i hit 50k, ill change them again

to
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: kevin_n on November 13, 2020, 11:10:07 PM
That sucks. When I picked mine up the Indy said one of the lifters was starting to show signs of failing. Made me happy that I listened to all you guys here and changed them out. Now if I could only decide on a set of bars..... But that is another story.  :-\
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: efrbc1 on November 14, 2020, 08:46:49 AM
Ron,

Looks like one of mine from 2018.  Pieces and parts everywhere - lots in the oil pan.  Only way to properly fix it is a complete teardown.  I changed all bearings and seals, oil pump and plate (trashed), had the crank checked and cleaned and flushed the entire oil feed system.  It's not gonna be cheap........
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: HD Street Performance on November 14, 2020, 10:37:43 AM
Ron,
regarding a teardown..
Guys think the rod bearings will be bad after a failure like this. That hasn't been my experience unless they were already bad. With the top end off clean the rods with brake cleaner and a spray can tip, plastic red straw. Then motor the assembly swiftly. After stopping look for up and down movement between the rod and pin, should be none. Move the rods fore to aft in the case, should be smooth no clicks or notchy feel. Check runout. My spec is < .006 TIR not < .012 like the factory, assuming chain drive. If ok proceed pulling the motor to clean out the case and replace the main bearings. Clean and flush everything else. Replace oil cooler, insurance. Pull the oil pan and replace if the baffle can't be removed and replaced. All connecting passages and oil filter assembly plus cooler adapter need to be checked and cleaned. Do this yourself, if you are capable and have the tools, or take it to a qualified shop and insist no shortcuts. For brevity I am not getting into all the overhaul aspects, just an overview.

Regarding prevention.
Springs:
The stock motor only needs about 145# seat pressure and a spring rate of 350 lbs. The 103 has 125# seat pressure but the 7mm valves and spring package are considerable lighter. Failures on a stock 103 are far less common. The stock 110 springs are closer to 165# seat and 420 spring rate. This and the cams (SE255) lift and closing rate are part of the problem.
Cam:
Suggestions for more conservative lobes, TTS 150, HD stock 103 HO, S&S such as 509 or 570, older Andrews grinds such as TW54, Wild Things TC24D, compression adjusted for each. I have excellent dual springs I use, adequate pressure and rate, good for .650 lift. Beehives are touted as being lower pressure. Most from the common vendors, goodson/kibblewhite AV&V PAC, are not. Most will go in the stock heads at ~1.85" and be in excess of 175# seat pressure with a rate that is OK. Still a single spring with no insurance of catastrophic failure if it breaks at mid to high rpm. 
Pushrods:
Use a rigid pushrod. The stock pushrods are not adequate and most aftermarket cams require adjustables anyway or custom solid heavier wall tubes. The SE 18404-08 pushrods are adequate. 
Lifters:
I use and sell an american made lifter that is reduced travel and is designed for higher spring pressures and abuse a typical hydraulic roller heavy valve train dishes out, also slow bleed. It has circlips, not crimped housing, so the axle and bearings can be inspected. I would inspect them at 15k intervals and adjust the interval according to the findings.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: Tail Rider on November 15, 2020, 05:48:18 PM
I couldn't help but notice that V&H carries a set similar to the SE18404-08, but I see that they are listed at 7/16, not 3/8 and carry a 5/16 thread instead of 1/4. I'd be relatively sure that they probably don't manufacture their own, but would be curious of their thoughts on spec-ing a piece that's a bit more stout. I've wondered also in some instances, where contact has been made with the push-rod tubes with varying push-rods, if these would be an issue.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: Wesleypalms on November 26, 2020, 04:30:12 PM
OK at 50k miles I decided to change mine out. Like others have said the service departments at both dealers nearby told me not to worry about them. Then this summer I lost a lifter in my Ram 1500 with the 5.7 hemi.
After that I started worrying on every ride. Anyway changed them yesterday. Johnson HyLift B-2313s with Harley pushrod kit. Here’s a photo of my lifters. Rear exhaust lifter has a small line, all of them were very tight.
Glad to have this behind me.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: Aussie on November 26, 2020, 08:04:58 PM
When I first rode my 2012 SG at highway speeds I instantly noticed the valve train noise was not right, service dept said the same thing not to worry about it.
I ended up changing them at 3000 miles as a precaution with S&S Lifters and SE Adjustable push rods.
What a difference it made, engine is a lot quieter but still has the 2200/2600 rocker rattle which I am less concerned about. At highway speeds the engine runs smooth without any rattles, just the normal valve train noise that is nice and quiet now.
Original lifters looked okay but I was not going to take a chance and listen to a service dept that changed out the oil to HD360 on the first service without consulting with me plus stating it's normal.

Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: ultra13 on November 27, 2020, 08:10:35 PM
Aussie I have the same mild noise at the same rpm. even with the rocker lockers/ S&S lifters. I wouldn't worry about it.....
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: Aussie on November 27, 2020, 10:25:31 PM
Aussie I have the same mild noise at the same rpm. even with the rocker lockers/ S&S lifters. I wouldn't worry about it.....
Not worried about the noise in the 2200/2600rpm, only hear it when I am gearing up to cruising speed.
Gets quieter when the engine warms up, at highway speed engine purrs like a kitten.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: HD Street Performance on November 28, 2020, 10:18:40 AM
Warm engine noise is usually related to valve lash, clearance that should not be there, cold or warming up usually points to piston slap which can be mistaken for valve train issues.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: papahead03 on December 01, 2020, 02:58:28 PM
I am in the process of replacing my cams, lifters, and pushrods. 40k on my ‘07 FXDSE. I wasn’t happy with her performance. Couldn’t keep up with baggers(not SE)off the line and couldn’t catch up. horrible gas mileage, I got at best 33mpg if I babied the throttle under 80 with no hard acceleration from stop. I’m pretty much deaf thanks to the Army so I can’t hear any of the noises you guys are talking about, except for some reason I could hear what sounded like a ping in my primary sometimes at takeoff and turned out to be my compensator(I think, haven’t heard it since I changed the sprocket). I also wanted to be able to tune and when I bought a SEPST and attempted to load a stage 1 tune it wouldn’t let me. Told me to check connections etc. after weeks of racking my brain, tracing cables, and searching forums, I used the tuner to pull the current map. Turns out it’s a MasterTune map. So now I’m stuck with an ecm that I can’t tune, that I thought seriously needed a tune, and to top it off when I ATTEMPTED to load a tune to the bike, it married the SEPST to the ecm. So now I can’t return it and still can’t tune. I bought the bike about a year ago with 24k and not exactly sure if anything was better then because I immediately started making changes. At one point the looked up codes and found that it was looking for the tachometer signal so I put it back on hoping that would help. Not much of it did. I decided on cams. For 2 reasons. First, the performance just wasn’t there. I saw the power band on all the dyno charts and realized there’s a narrow margin for running this setup. Second, the heat is insane. I can feel my ass getting warm on the highway. When I stop at a red light I have to spread my legs and stand or it will burn me through my pants. I read that these engines just run hot because of the exhaust duration on the 255 among other things. Every time I change my oil, which is about once a month maybe every other month, the oil smells burnt and I just don’t see how this is healthy for an engine so I wanted a change. I ride cross country year round and I wanted something that would hold up on those 16 hour days, not something that I would consider overheating after 1 hour. I settled on Andrews 57H cams, don’t ask me why I don’t remember, but it had to do with looking at all of the dyno charts and explanations of what every bodies cams do. Along with the cams came the adjustable pushrods and woods alpha series lifters. I’m expecting to crack open a stock engine and my heart dropped. I saw adjustable pushrods and thought holy chit someone did a cam job and didn’t change the tune. Nope. 255 cams in the chest. And not thing changes was lifters and pushrods that I could tell. Cams may have been replaced but I wouldn’t be able to tell. I know the tensioner pads were insanely grooves so I’m guessing nobody went into the cam chest. Lifters looked pretty new. No brand on them just a long number. 5100xxxxxx I think. Anyways I put the new lifters in. They say you can only put the. In one way but I don’t see how. I guess I got them right cause they work, but they look like they could go backwards. Breather screens were full of oil replaced them and the umbrella valves. Installed rocker lockers. Installed a mechanical OP gauge. Installed the new cams and a fueling relief spring and plunger. Changed the oil. Made sure I primed the oil system all the way to the filter before I ever tried to start the engine. Married a different ecm and loaded the tune from my PV1. Started her up and oil pressure climbed to 60 within 10 seconds. Maybe more, but the gauge only goes to 60. So after much stress, tearing it back down twice to adjust the fueling spring and the put the stock back in, I’m told it’s normal. Especially a cold start with new oil on a cold day. So I’m just waiting on an updated tune with my cams on it and I’ll be testing her out. The few seconds I’ve heard she sounded great but the timing was probably off due to tune being tor 255 not Andrews 57. so who knows when I get her timed and tuned right. Don’t know if she had a lifter failure or the dealership I got her from changed them for a CYA. Either way they look brand new. I will be double, or is it triple, checking the valve lash one more time before I let her run again and warm up. I’ve done that with pretty much every step. I’m a little OCD. Took me 11 days with a few all nighters to get here now. I decided I was not going to rush and miss a step. Too much damn money involved. Anyways I will update on how I think the lifters perform, and the cams, when I get her running again. Hopefully today or tomorrow. 
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: HD Street Performance on December 01, 2020, 03:51:29 PM
You can road tune the bike. As the person that wrote the program always says read the manual. You can get all the lower map value VEs adjusted and it makes a world of difference.  Then get it to a qualified  dyno tuner to finish the high map high rpm areas.
Nobody's canned map will be that close.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: papahead03 on December 01, 2020, 04:53:20 PM
You can road tune the bike. As the person that wrote the program always says read the manual. You can get all the lower map value VEs adjusted and it makes a world of difference.  Then get it to a qualified  dyno tuner to finish the high map high rpm areas.
Nobody's canned map will be that close.

I’m still going to auto tune and adjust. But I want it as close as possible. At least the ignition timing adjusted closer. As you know from my other post I’m very paranoid about damage to this engine. I know I could probably roll it out and get it pretty good with a couple auto tunes but it’s not life or death to get it done today. I can wait an extra day or two to get the better map. With the way it wa idling, chugging, what seemed like a backfire from the intake, I’d just rather wait. That’s also why I’m double checking the valve lash when I get home too. From what I understand there’s only one way to install the Woods Alpha series lifters but I’m gonna double check that too since I’ve got the push rods loose anyways. Just pull the rods and check the lifters, 5 minutes labor for peace of mind. Gonna do a compression check too since it ain’t going nowhere right now anyways.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: papahead03 on December 01, 2020, 10:06:11 PM
These came out of it.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: papahead03 on December 01, 2020, 10:07:11 PM
Not sure what this number is. Google comes up empty.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: papahead03 on December 01, 2020, 10:08:39 PM
Inner bearing surface. It’s discolored but no scoring and no noticeable wear, though I’m sure a machinist could find some.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: papahead03 on December 01, 2020, 10:09:25 PM
Both cams appear in the same shape.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: papahead03 on December 01, 2020, 10:10:28 PM
I thought they would have a part number or say SE. Never saw a part labeled as CVO.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: timo482 on December 01, 2020, 11:34:25 PM
i really like those cams.. in a 96 ultra with sidecar.. they are worth a whole pile of torque and are quiet. still pulling hard at 80.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: DrSpencer on December 04, 2020, 07:13:08 PM
2011 FLXH 103" Street Glide w/38K miles

I bought the bike new and immediately put in SE255's (using stock lifters & pushrods), then V-Tuned with TTS

Bike runs great, no valve train noise, etc.

If I decide to swap the lifters, can I reuse my SE255 cams that have 38K miles on them?

Thanks

Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: Twolanerider on December 04, 2020, 08:10:59 PM
2011 FLXH 103" Street Glide w/38K miles

I bought the bike new and immediately put in SE255's (using stock lifters & pushrods), then V-Tuned with TTS

Bike runs great, no valve train noise, etc.

If I decide to swap the lifters, can I reuse my SE255 cams that have 38K miles on them?

Thanks

Roller lifters don't slide or generate other mated specific wear patters.  So, so long as all the parts look ok, you're good to go.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: DrSpencer on December 04, 2020, 08:22:42 PM
Roller lifters don't slide or generate other mated specific wear patters.  So, so long as all the parts look ok, you're good to go.

Good to know.

What about reusing the stock push rods, that have 37K on them?

Thanks
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: timo482 on December 04, 2020, 09:30:37 PM
you can continue to reuse stock pushrods as long as there is little wear on them. the only part that needs regular replacement is the lifters themselves due to random issues with the roller needle bearings.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: timo482 on December 04, 2020, 09:39:19 PM
now that twin cams are getting a bit old they really are very reliable with a few specific things to watch out for. post 2007 lifters is number one, cranks are number two for big power builds, and compensators. i changed the inner cam bearings since it was apart. i replace all seals and bearings on any assembly i have to take apart. i changed the compensator because there was one worn part, no way to get a new one, i had to remove the compensator when changing the rear gear ratio. lifters every 20 or so and they last. a friend has a 88. put the 95 kit in new. installed a gear drive cam when the rear cam bearing issue surfaced. has just ridden it since - well over 100,000 miles with no other actual work other than a rear brake cartridge, brake pads, tires, and a couple of batteries.  my 07 had a couple of immediate problems .. got the cylinders bored, new pistons and rings at 500 miles from poor seal. and its been trouble free - sidecar since new so its loaded real good and there are no issues "knock on wood"
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: DrSpencer on December 04, 2020, 10:09:28 PM
From what I gather from this thread, it seems like the 110" motors (that came stock w/SE255's) are more prone to lifter failure than my 103" (which I put SE255's in), is this correct?

Thanks
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: Finster101 on December 05, 2020, 08:36:40 AM
From what I gather from this thread, it seems like the 110" motors (that came stock w/SE255's) are more prone to lifter failure than my 103" (which I put SE255's in), is this correct?

Thanks

From what I have read here the root of the 110 lifter issues are the very heavy springs in the heads.  I'm sure someone much more knowledgeable will chime in.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: HD Street Performance on December 05, 2020, 10:33:28 AM
There is more to the story. The springs are not that heavy, seat pressure, but are a little stout going over the nose. Common so called "fix" is change to beehives. Well now you have reversed the problem, too much seat pressure with stock protrusion and they only have a single spring. Single point of failure if a spring breaks.

So what's the story?
Not a single component is the root cause, it is a poorly engineered system. The cam, albeit produces good low end torque, has overly fast ramps. The springs have too high of a spring rate. The pushrods are too weak and flex with the added pressure. The lifters are low quality and bleed off too fast and have a low MTBF. The top end valve train weight, the components, are heavy. Everybody wants to just click here or push button there. Something that can be done in the garage over a weekend by average joe mechanic. It is not that easy to fix all of that unfortunately. There is a way however to get to the low hanging fruit.

First what that doesn't include:

Suggestions:

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: DrSpencer on December 05, 2020, 10:49:19 AM
There is more to the story. The springs are not that heavy, seat pressure, but are a little stout going over the nose. Common so called "fix" is change to beehives. Well now you have reversed the problem, too much seat pressure with stock protrusion and they only have a single spring. Single point of failure if a spring breaks.

So what's the story?
Not a single component is the root cause, it is a poorly engineered system. The cam, albeit produces good low end torque, has overly fast ramps. The springs have too high of a spring rate. The pushrods are too weak and flex with the added pressure. The lifters are low quality and bleed off too fast and have a low MTBF. The top end valve train weight, the components, are heavy. Everybody wants to just click here or push button there. Something that can be done in the garage over a weekend by average joe mechanic. It is not that easy to fix all of that unfortunately. There is a way however to get to the low hanging fruit.

First what that doesn't include:
  • A new cam plate and oil pump unless the OE parts are worn
  • Same comment on tensioners and tensioner pads and all the oil relief valve gizmos and pressure adders

Suggestions:
  • Remove the heads or use a Nub tool and change the valve springs. I have a nice .650 lift dual spring that is much lighter, rate and seat pressure, than stock, dual, and uses a tool steel retainer. 140# seat 360# open @.550"
  • Change the cam to one with reasonable ramps which are most modern grinds today but some are better than others
  • Change the lifters, I prefer Morel because they are made in the USA and I test them. They have the lowest bleed down rate of any I have tested and can be rebuilt, but who would for the cost of a new set.
  • Change the pushrods to a premium 7/16" tapered pushrod, adjustable, again I sell these
  • Set the preload to .100
  • Motor on.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the detailed response.

Given the choice, which cam would you choose for a stock 103", SE255 or TTS 100?

Aren't these two cams almost the same grind?

Thanks
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: HD Street Performance on December 05, 2020, 10:52:51 AM
The TTS 100 is a fixed SE255. Does everything the SE255 does but doesn't hammer the valve train
Valve Spring Info Here (https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/paUKZuJb6yMgEbQEQ9Y3IUwML1vuINv00j9O7NwgE1k)
The SE CVO spring is very similar to the CompCams 977
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: DrSpencer on December 05, 2020, 12:21:14 PM
The TTS 100 is a fixed SE255. Does everything the SE255 does but doesn't hammer the valve train
Valve Spring Info Here (https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share/paUKZuJb6yMgEbQEQ9Y3IUwML1vuINv00j9O7NwgE1k)
The SE CVO spring is very similar to the CompCams 977

Would the valve train of a stock 103" tolerate swapping in just TTS 100 cams & new lifters (no springs) without worry?

Thanks
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: HD Street Performance on December 05, 2020, 12:48:20 PM
Yes assuming we are talking about a 2008up non-CVO 103.
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: DrSpencer on December 05, 2020, 01:45:55 PM
Yes assuming we are talking about a 2008up non-CVO 103.

Good to know, I have a 2011 FLHX

Bike presently has 38K miles. I'll probably do TTS100 cams, cam bearings, & lifters when I do a 40K service. I imagine I'll go in through the top, so I'll be reusing the stock push rods. Unless someone can make a case why I should not.

At 40K miles, besides breathers, is there anything else I should be replacing/addressing while I have the cam chest open?

Thanks
Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: timo482 on December 05, 2020, 11:01:32 PM
but does that tts 100 cam require a tune and tuner?

im getting in the habit of changing lifters every so often.. the tuner is real money unless it does something else magical.

a ramp fixed cam that would lower wear is a really great thing.... but its a lot of money on the retirement string

Title: Re: Lifters (I know)
Post by: DrSpencer on December 06, 2020, 12:02:18 AM
but does that tts 100 cam require a tune and tuner?

im getting in the habit of changing lifters every so often.. the tuner is real money unless it does something else magical.

a ramp fixed cam that would lower wear is a really great thing.... but its a lot of money on the retirement string

Yes. Any different grind cam would require a new tune.

My bike, with SE255's, is already married to a TTS tuner.

Thanks