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[tazmun]

This was in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel today:

http://www.jsonline.com/business/34987544.html

[Firechief2]

I think MoCo will come out of this albeit with some bad bruising. It is the dealers that are going to suffer the worst, with many dissappearing.

[RJ749]

As with anyone needing access to the credit markets from both ends (company to get loans and customer to get loans) the months ahead undoubtedly will be hard for Harley and its dealers.

[SERK3]

At least they haven't been to Washington holding out the tin can begging for money like the auto industry has, Then fly home in their corp. jets

[RJ749]

US Treasury is acting to make it easier to get consumer loans:

U.S. Treasury Department Office of Public Affairs

 
Embargoed Until 10 a.m. (EST), November 25, 2008           
Contact Jennifer Zuccarelli, (202) 622-8657
 

Secretary Paulson Remarks on Consumer ABS Lending Facility

 
Washington— Today the Treasury and the Federal Reserve are announcing a facility to finance the issuance of non-mortgage asset-backed paper in order to support lending to consumers and small businesses that is vital to our economy.
 
The consumer asset backed securities market is a source of liquidity to financial institutions that provide federally-guaranteed small business loans and consumer lending such as auto loans, student loans and credit cards.  Issuance of ABS in these areas reached $240 billion in 2007, but credit market stresses led to a steep decline in the third quarter of 2008, and the market essentially came to a halt in October. As a result, millions of Americans cannot find affordable financing for their basic credit needs.  And credit card rates are climbing, making it more expensive for families to finance everyday purchases.  This lack of affordable consumer credit undermines consumer spending and as a result weakens our economy.
 
To address this need and support the return of consumer lending, the Treasury will provide $20 billion of credit protection to the Federal Reserve in connection with its $200 billion Term Asset Backed Securities Loan Facility. By providing liquidity to issuers of consumer asset backed paper, the Federal Reserve facility will enable a broad range of institutions to step up their lending, enabling borrowers to have access to lower cost consumer finance and small business loans.  The facility may be expanded over time and eligible asset classes may be expanded later to include other assets, such as commercial mortgage-backed securities, non-agency residential mortgage-backed securities or other asset classes.
 
Throughout this financial market turmoil, our focus has been to stabilize the system and support the lending that is vital to our economy.  Toward that end we’ve taken steps to strengthen the capital position of our financial institutions, to stabilize the system and to enable them to increase lending to American consumers and businesses.  Similarly, we’ve acted to stabilize the GSEs and to purchase GSE mortgage-backed securities, in order to increase the availability of affordable mortgage credit throughout our nation.  Today’s initiative to support the small business and consumer finance market is similarly aimed at increasing the availability of affordable lending.  Today’s announcement by the Fed that it will purchase direct debt obligations of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the Federal Home Loan Banks, and also mortgage backed securities guaranteed by Fannie, Freddie and Ginnie Mae, underscores our support for the housing market. Nothing is more important to getting through this housing correction than the availability of affordable mortgage finance.
 
It will take time to work through the difficulties in our markets and our economy, and new challenges will continue to arise.  I and my regulatory colleagues are committed to using all the tools at our disposal to preserve the strength of our financial institutions and stabilize our financial markets, to minimize the spillover into the rest of the economy.   
 

[DavidB]

I think MoCo will come out of this albeit with some bad bruising. It is the dealers that are going to suffer the worst, with many dissappearing.

  To bad Harley pushed dealers into building multi million dollor buildings that they cant pay for now.

[RJ749]

  To bad Harley pushed dealers into building multi million dollor buildings that they cant pay for now.

They may come to regret it.  Of course it wasn't Harley that pushed them, they made independant business decisions on their own

It truly is a problem not only for Harley but look at some of the Toyota stores around or Honda or Benz or VW....... it was all part of the euphoria.

Well I guess that seems to be over for the moment.  I hope things get moving, there still are people employed and able to buy, they just aren't.

[RedDevil]

They may come to regret it.  Of course it wasn't Harley that pushed them, they made independant business decisions on their own

It truly is a problem not only for Harley but look at some of the Toyota stores around or Honda or Benz or VW....... it was all part of the euphoria.

Well I guess that seems to be over for the moment.  I hope things get moving, there still are people employed and able to buy, they just aren't.

How're things going for you Rog?  Hope everything is still going okay.

 

[HUBBARD]

They may come to regret it.  Of course it wasn't Harley that pushed them, they made independant business decisions on their own
It truly is a problem not only for Harley but look at some of the Toyota stores around or Honda or Benz or VW....... it was all part of the euphoria.

Well I guess that seems to be over for the moment.  I hope things get moving, there still are people employed and able to buy, they just aren't.

Not what I heard.  I know one in WV that was told to build a new facility, or someone else would.  Fact.  'Course he's not in a squeeze, as he paid up for his new digs.  I've known this man for 30+ years, and I promise you he would not have spent the money if he didn't have to.  Later--HUBBARD

[spydglide]

Not what I heard.  I know one in WV that was told to build a new facility, or someone else would.  Fact.  'Course he's not in a squeeze, as he paid up for his new digs.  I've known this man for 30+ years, and I promise you he would not have spent the money if he didn't have to.  Later--HUBBARD

I think it has been some of both, in many cases the older ones  were 'pressured' to up-grade to the bigger/fancier facilities.  The gov't. injection of additional 'credit' for a society that's already extended to the max is kinda hard for me to understand how this is going to solve any problems except in the very short term.     spyder

[hard10]

At least they haven't been to Washington holding out the tin can begging for money like the auto industry has, Then fly home in their corp. jets

BS. HDFS was one of the first to file for assistance. They were well ahead of the first deadline.

[SBB]

At least they haven't been to Washington holding out the tin can begging for money like the auto industry has, Then fly home in their corp. jets

Now how stupid was that?

 

[JCZ]

Now how stupid was that?

 

I think they were told that by congress.  And, that they arrived empty handed without a long term plan to present in trade for the $

[miker]

I thougt is was more arrogant the stupid, but it is typical of those so far up the food chain they have no idea what it is to get by on a "living" wage and how they will blame the hourly union guy for the problems.

[SBB]

I think they were told that by congress.  And, that they arrived empty handed without a long term plan to present in trade for the $

Can you imagine the press coverage if one of the three automakers had just thought to arrive by Trailways or Greyhound?
That automaker would have gone home with a check instead of the boot!

 

[Twolanerider]

Not that the Big Three have needed any help shooting themselves in the foot the last several years.  And only guessing here.  But it's at least possible that their travel to the Congressional hearings was only bad stylistically rather than from a business/cost perspective.

I know that GM has a corporate policy requiring it's most senior executives to fly charter or company aircraft to events such as hearings for security reasons.  It's a policy that could have been waved of course.  But we don't have a clue how many staff, security or ther personnel went with the senior execs who made the trip.  How many commercial tickets purchased within a week of travel come close to a company plane's travel costs?

Only saying that Congressmen sitting in hearings are not at all above throwing a cheap shot for PR effect.  It's a quite common tactic actually.

[tazmun]

 I know we love to rag on the auto industry, but they have NO clue on how to get out of the mess.
The people who can afford cars, buy them. They gave too much FREE credit to people who can't
really afford it. The people they need to buy their cars will never be able to, again because they
are MAXED out on their credit.  Heck, speaking of Harley, they were doing the same thing. I know
a few employee who are maxed out on credit, that still got a new bike. The mother company
was giving them "no payments" for a year, instead of their the employee discount. 

[spydglide]

Not that the Big Three have needed any help shooting themselves in the foot the last several years.  And only guessing here.  But it's at least possible that their travel to the Congressional hearings was only bad stylistically rather than from a business/cost perspective.

I know that GM has a corporate policy requiring it's most senior executives to fly charter or company aircraft to events such as hearings for security reasons.  It's a policy that could have been waved of course.  But we don't have a clue how many staff, security or ther personnel went with the senior execs who made the trip.  How many commercial tickets purchased within a week of travel come close to a company plane's travel costs?

Only saying that Congressmen sitting in hearings are not at all above throwing a cheap shot for PR effect.  It's a quite common tactic actually.

Absolutely correct.  The only thing is the obvious example of the disconnect with the average taxpayer that they're asking to bail them out after years of sorry  azzed management (and excessessssss in many realms)  aaaargh.  spyder

[RJ749]

Not what I heard.  I know one in WV that was told to build a new facility, or someone else would.  Fact.  'Course he's not in a squeeze, as he paid up for his new digs.  I've known this man for 30+ years, and I promise you he would not have spent the money if he didn't have to.  Later--HUBBARD

Hey Hub, I was a bit tongue in check.  The corporate A holes drove many a business man into big debt over the last 5-10 years.  That would be the They may come to regret it part, referring to the MoCo and the car companies.

I know of Porsche dealers forced to build that have never made one red cent since their new facilities have opened and they have been in them three or more years.

Regardless, I sure am not defending the MoCo on this one.

[RJ749]

How're things going for you Rog?  Hope everything is still going okay.

 

We're hangin in, but it is becoming a hang on more than hang in through the holidays and administration change over.  Not sure that the Feds will be able to turn this corner in the near future regardless of who is at the helm.

[RJ749]

I know we love to rag on the auto industry, but they have NO clue on how to get out of the mess.
The people who can afford cars, buy them. They gave too much FREE credit to people who can't
really afford it. The people they need to buy their cars will never be able to, again because they
are MAXED out on their credit.  Heck, speaking of Harley, they were doing the same thing. I know
a few employee who are maxed out on credit, that still got a new bike. The mother company
was giving them "no payments" for a year, instead of their the employee discount. 

No to defend corporate America, but what about the now $1.6 Billion the banks are getting, they're every bit at much at fault as anyone along with Wall Street, $25 billion to the car companies (although I imagine it won't be that in the end) for a "bridge loan" seems a lot less of a risk to taxpayers than backing worthless securities and home debt.

[tazmun]

No to defend corporate America, but what about the now $1.6 Billion the banks are getting, they're every bit at much at fault as anyone along with Wall Street, $25 billion to the car companies (although I imagine it won't be that in the end) for a "bridge loan" seems a lot less of a risk to taxpayers than backing worthless securities and home debt.

I don't think ANYONE who screws up should get a bail out. But remember it take 2 to make a deal!
Just remember, if a person walks into a bank, and asks for money to buy a Big car, Big house,
or best of all, a BIG motorcycle, and the bank says ok, because it's a win, win, I dont think I have to
pay for any of their stupidity. My daughter was told by a loan officer she could get a $200k loan!
She came back to us laughing, yea, if I don't want to eat! But MOST people want to LIVE for today, gotta
have it RFN!, so they jump at it. I'm real sorry for the car companies, but giving them any money is a waste,
because the writing is on the wall. If you can't sell a Chevy Cobalt, what do you think they are going to sell,
a $44,000 Tahoe, to a guy making $12.00/hr?
,

[Free]

I don't think ANYONE who screws up should get a bail out. But remember it take 2 to make a deal!
Just remember, if a person walks into a bank, and asks for money to buy a Big car, Big house,
or best of all, a BIG motorcycle, and the bank says ok, because it's a win, win, I dont think I have to
pay for any of their stupidity. My daughter was told by a loan officer she could get a $200k loan!
She came back to us laughing, yea, if I don't want to eat! But MOST people want to LIVE for today, gotta
have it RFN!, so they jump at it. I'm real sorry for the car companies, but giving them any money is a waste,
because the writing is on the wall. If you can't sell a Chevy Cobalt, what do you think they are going to sell,
a $44,000 Tahoe, to a guy making $12.00/hr?
,

Amen, brother - personal responsibility - what a concept.
my biggest problem with the bailout and all the entitlement programs is the moral hazard.  Once people begin to believe that the 5% should take care of the 95% and the government should take care of everyone, we lose our sense of ownership and responsibility.  My parents never blamed the government for their problems or demanded from the government.  We have lost sight of this IMO. Once we bailed out the financial institutions, its no surprise that everyone has their hand out.  All the failed businesses will now be subsidized by the profitable businesses (through taxes either directly or indirectly eventually through inflation from all the money we are printing).  We have really made a mess out of our country.

they say in family businesses that the first generation builds it, the second generation enjoys it and the third generation squanders it. i wonder if that is what is happening.

best

Free

[tazmun]

Amen, brother - personal responsibility - what a concept.
my biggest problem with the bailout and all the entitlement programs is the moral hazard.  Once people begin to believe that the 5% should take care of the 95% and the government should take care of everyone, we lose our sense of ownership and responsibility.  My parents never blamed the government for their problems or demanded from the government.  We have lost sight of this IMO. Once we bailed out the financial institutions, its no surprise that everyone has their hand out.  All the failed businesses will now be subsidized by the profitable businesses (through taxes either directly or indirectly eventually through inflation from all the money we are printing).  We have really made a mess out of our country.

they say in family businesses that the first generation builds it, the second generation enjoys it and the third generation squanders it. i wonder if that is what is happening.

best

Free

I'm REALLY going to like paying for all the pensions, that are Government BACKED!
Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have a pension, but when someone has to back it,
I think it's wrong. I believe in FREE enterprise, and the meaning of that is COMPETE
and when you can't, start looking for ways to do it.
I have a friend who worked for A.O. Smith, on the line making auto/truck frames.
All the overtime etc, cranked out $70/80k a year. Now he is a CPA, making a little
more then two thirds of that, because the company didn't want to compete.
That was 12 years ago.

[comfortablynumb]

The company I work for has laid off over 100,000 people over the last 7 years, Union and management. The Union had a pension plan and still does. the management had a pension plan,then the company picked a date and said that if you weren't an employee before Feb,1996. no more pension. The company has NEVER turned a profit. The Executive level-CEO,CFO etc., continued to receive compensation and bonuses in th 3-5 million dollar range. At our quarterly open house meetings, being a Union President, I would ask them how they could justify with a straight face, taking that kind of reward for doing such a horrible job, that is, not managing the business efficiently, and just laying off more people to compensate for the losses due to their ineptitude? With a straight face, and broadcast to our fellow employees worldwide, we were told that our company HAD to pay that kind of money in order hire and keep that same level of talent. I asked if it was the company's mission to pay for services that they obviously weren't getting? I was told that I just didn't understand the business model. I guess not. After a 3 year battle with the stockholders,of which I was one, we finally voted in Feb. to have the Comp and Bonus Committee restructure the bonuses to mirror the company's success. The CEO and Bored of Directors "merged" the company,(actually sold) to a competitor in France with the previous CEO remaining as CEO. This year a French national law effective Jan 1 2009, states that all bonuses and compensation MUST be porportional to the company's success. The CEO resigned 2 months ago with a 6.5 million dollar severance package. The French legislative body has asked that she return her "unearned" money. Neither she or her lawyers has bothered to respond. The simple answer to the question is- because they can. Sorry to ramble but if I was as bad at my job they would have fired me long ago, not reward me.

[hard10]

The company I work for has laid off over 100,000 people over the last 7 years, Union and management. The Union had a pension plan and still does. the management had a pension plan,then the company picked a date and said that if you weren't an employee before Feb,1996. no more pension. The company has NEVER turned a profit. The Executive level-CEO,CFO etc., continued to receive compensation and bonuses in th 3-5 million dollar range. At our quarterly open house meetings, being a Union President, I would ask them how they could justify with a straight face, taking that kind of reward for doing such a horrible job, that is, not managing the business efficiently, and just laying off more people to compensate for the losses due to their ineptitude? With a straight face, and broadcast to our fellow employees worldwide, we were told that our company HAD to pay that kind of money in order hire and keep that same level of talent. I asked if it was the company's mission to pay for services that they obviously weren't getting? I was told that I just didn't understand the business model. I guess not. After a 3 year battle with the stockholders,of which I was one, we finally voted in Feb. to have the Comp and Bonus Committee restructure the bonuses to mirror the company's success. The CEO and Bored of Directors "merged" the company,(actually sold) to a competitor in France with the previous CEO remaining as CEO. This year a French national law effective Jan 1 2009, states that all bonuses and compensation MUST be porportional to the company's success. The CEO resigned 2 months ago with a 6.5 million dollar severance package. The French legislative body has asked that she return her "unearned" money. Neither she or her lawyers has bothered to respond. The simple answer to the question is- because they can. Sorry to ramble but if I was as bad at my job they would have fired me long ago, not reward me.

CN, you have to tell us what company you worked for. How is it possible to even have 100,000 employees and not make a profit? Someone along the way has forgotten what it was that started this business. I don't care if you sell 'wigits' or air, at one point in time that was a commodity that your company was providing and has now lost sight of. It sounds like it may have gotten too big if they have to lay off 100,000 workers. How many people work there now? Did this company diversify into areas that they were not well educated in? A cobbler should not take on the task of building a skyscraper just because he knows how to hammer a shoe. Something is amiss here and this is what has gotten a lot of companies into trouble. Stick to what you know and do it well. Just ask Hubbard. He knows how to sell big trucks. I don't think I'm going to see him in Beaufort running a shrimp boat. With the Federal deregulation of the banking industry several years ago, bankers were looking for new products to sell that they had no idea about. This sounds like it may be the case in your scenario without know any of the facts.

[grc]

I'm REALLY going to like paying for all the pensions, that are Government BACKED!
Don't get me wrong, it's nice to have a pension, but when someone has to back it,
I think it's wrong. I believe in FREE enterprise, and the meaning of that is COMPETE
and when you can't, start looking for ways to do it.
I have a friend who worked for A.O. Smith, on the line making auto/truck frames.
All the overtime etc, cranked out $70/80k a year. Now he is a CPA, making a little
more then two thirds of that, because the company didn't want to compete.
That was 12 years ago.

Taz, the only pensions I'm aware of that are truly government backed are actual government pensions.  There is an agency that guarantees private employer pensions, but it isn't funded by the USA, it's funded by premiums paid by the participating companies, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation.  
http://www.pbgc.gov/
-------------------------------------------------------------
"PBGC is a federal corporation created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. It currently protects the pensions of nearly 44 million American workers and retirees in more than 29,000 private single-employer and multiemployer defined benefit pension plans. PBGC receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed by insurance premiums set by Congress and paid by sponsors of defined benefit plans, investment income, assets from pension plans trusteed by PBGC, and recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans."
-------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that the fearless leaders of our country have tweaked the rules on funding levels over the years to benefit big business (and therefore themselves) is what may lead to the need for Sugar Daddy to prop up this entity.  Pension trust funds are supposed to be 100% funded, based on actuarial estimates of each plans obligations.  Over the years, starting back in the 80's I believe, companies have cried poverty and the government has allowed them to either change the accounting rules for the funds or to actually pull money out of them.  Congress made changes in 2006 to force companies to fully fund their plans over the next several years, but we are already seeing companies crying to them about suspending required payments into the funds due to the poor economy (funny how those executive bonuses keep rolling though).  

This discussion came up once before, and once again I will share my opinion on the subject of pension plans.  Those of us who worked in companies with defined benefit pension plans did not enjoy the fat salaries of those folks who had to rely on their own savings or the various 401k, 403b, etc. plans.  The company included the cost of benefits and pensions when doing annual competitive salary studies, and I can personally assure you that my salary was significantly less than folks with similar duties and responsibilities in companies that didn't offer pensions.  In other words, my pension isn't some freebie from a benevolent employer that tax payers may have to subsidize; I earned every penny of it (and even funded part of it with my own extra contributions).  Even though my pension was 113% funded at the end of 2006, I'm just as nervous as those who had underfunded plans because I cannot trust our government and the bankruptcy courts to protect the little guy against the corporations.  Ask the retirees from the steel industry how well they were protected, as they take one or two jobs in their old age to make up for the screwing they received.

Jerry

[Free]

"PBGC receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed by insurance premiums set by Congress and paid by sponsors of defined benefit plans, investment income, assets from pension plans trusteed by PBGC, and recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans."

not yet, but they will. Congress will nationalize these if they collapse - no doubt about it. Another unintended consequence of our central planners in Washington.

Free

[naitram]

CN, you have to tell us what company you worked for. How is it possible to even have 100,000 employees and not make a profit? Someone along the way has forgotten what it was that started this business. I don't care if you sell 'wigits' or air, at one point in time that was a commodity that your company was providing and has now lost sight of. It sounds like it may have gotten too big if they have to lay off 100,000 workers. How many people work there now? Did this company diversify into areas that they were not well educated in? A cobbler should not take on the task of building a skyscraper just because he knows how to hammer a shoe. Something is amiss here and this is what has gotten a lot of companies into trouble. Stick to what you know and do it well. Just ask Hubbard. He knows how to sell big trucks. I don't think I'm going to see him in Beaufort running a shrimp boat. With the Federal deregulation of the banking industry several years ago, bankers were looking for new products to sell that they had no idea about. This sounds like it may be the case in your scenario without know any of the facts.

bad biz models. i know of at least on division that was shipping product, and underwriteing the loans on the product.  then when the bubble burst the customers were defaulting on the loans

[RedFXR2]

How is it possible to even have 100,000 employees and not make a profit?

Welllllll.  It could supply goods and services to the Government.

The company I work for has laid off over 100,000 people over the last 7 years, Union and management. .... The company has NEVER turned a profit. ....I would ask them how they could justify with a straight face, taking that kind of reward for doing such a horrible job, that is, not managing the business efficiently, and just laying off more people to compensate for the losses due to their ineptitude? With a straight face, and broadcast to our fellow employees worldwide, we were told that our company HAD to pay that kind of money in order hire and keep that same level of talent. I asked if it was the company's mission to pay for services that they obviously weren't getting? I was told that I just didn't understand the business model.

CN, you've got me wondering if I once worked for your employer.

[sportygordy]

I say fire all of the big three's CEO's eliminate all the lavish corprate jets. That should allow enough to save what there asking for from the government. Not to mention they could save enough to start 3000 new jobs. Notice the Japanese don't pay out all the lavish cash?? They don't have CEO's they have front line managers that fly cabin coach on business trips, They are not having any problems. There are way too may 'selfish' spoiled brain farts destroying our American companies. I hope I'm not offending any of you that may be in this minority, but just speaking my two cents. Buy the way, my compnay recently announced possible cut backs in overhead next year. All managers including myself volunteered a 20% pay cuts and other perks (our take home cars)  to save some lost jobs, which very well could have been any of us. It looks like were good for next years budget, were crossing our fingers from here.  And I'm looking forward to putting a few extra miles on my Harley back and forth to work. 

[FLSTFI Dave]

  The gov't. injection of additional 'credit' for a society that's already extended to the max is kinda hard for me to understand how this is going to solve any problems except in the very short term.     spyder

I am with you on this statement. 

I thought over extended credit is some of what got us into this mess...

[screem]

I think MoCo will come out of this albeit with some bad bruising. It is the dealers that are going to suffer the worst, with many dissappearing.

If some of the Greedy dealers are falling on hard times...then boo hoo.....I dont remeber them caring about our financel well being very much....who here rembers when you went to Daytona for bike week and stopped by Robisons Harley Davidson for a tee shirt and some parts. The parts guy actually knew something about parts...the bikes were priced at MSRP...the owner was walking around greeting people...There used to be a dealer in Vermont  ( Barre HD)  that was located high atop a hill and the business was run out of the owners barn out behind his house. He also serviced HD golf carts..it was an absolutley beautiful setting up on that hill....the owner would come out to greet you, ask where you had ridden in from, he would sit out front on a chair and chat with you awhile. He had to secumb to the factory's wishes and had to build a store in the downtown area of town...just off the interstate...made the store many , many times larger than his original store was....something was surely lost with that move....but I'll bet all the yuppie bluetooth, GPS , Ipod ridding folks just love the new store.... Maybe some shake up will get the Factory and its dealers back to their core business....Motorcylces

[SBB]

but I'll bet all the yuppie bluetooth, GPS , Ipod ridding folks just love the new store....

Glad I'm to old to be a Yuppie.

 

[RedFXR2]

.... Maybe some shake up will get the Factory and its dealers back to their core business....Motorcylces

Actually, and I'll have to surf around to see if I can find a link, but I read somewhere just last week that HD's total revenue is more from the lecensing and sales of "Branded" merchandise than motorcycles.  Yes, they must keep making bikes to keep the brand alive, but those bikes aren't what makes the most money for the corporation.

[edit to add]

I'm still looking but here's some info from 2008.  Not sure where I saw that first thing but adding some figures from the following statement would indicate that the bikes are actually the revenue leaders over both P&A and Geveral Merchandise (motorclothes):


"Revenue from Harley-Davidson motorcycles was $1.12 billion, a decrease of $105.5 million or 8.6 percent versus the same period last year. Shipments of Harley-Davidson motorcycles totaled 81,206 units, a decrease of 11,642 units or 12.5 percent compared to last year's fourth quarter.

Revenue from Parts and Accessories (P&A), which consists of Genuine Motor Parts and Genuine Motor Accessories, totaled $165.2 million, a decrease of $14.0 million or 7.8 percent from the year-ago quarter. Revenue from General Merchandise, which consists of MotorClothes(R) apparel and collectibles, totaled $73.4 million, an increase of $2.8 million or 4.0 percent over the year-ago quarter."

[spydglide]

If some of the Greedy dealers are falling on hard times...then boo hoo.....I dont remeber them caring about our financel well being very much....who here rembers when you went to Daytona for bike week and stopped by Robisons Harley Davidson for a tee shirt and some parts. The parts guy actually knew something about parts...the bikes were priced at MSRP...the owner was walking around greeting people...

Well, a few of us still do remember the ones who were good to us thru the years.  I stopped by Robisons HD to pick up a T-shirt this at Biketoberfest a few weeks back.  Got to see ole Joe Robison and his wife and all the great ole bikes and stuff in there.  Only a couple of people there as the crowd was passing by to the new greedy dealers who could care less about you or your bike, only your $$$.     Kinda sad, really.  spyder

[RedFXR2]

Well, a few of us still do remember the ones who were good to us thru the years. 

Spyder, do you remember the original dealer in Roanoke Rapids (NC)?  They had a converted residential, brick ranch house on the outskirts of town (not the Interstate).  They had knocked the walls out for showroom and office space.  Still had the fireplace in the living room with chairs, lamps tables and carpet.  Magazines, a TV and free coffee.  They had built a cinder block garage structure on the side for service bays.  It was a really friendly, inviting place.  I think now that dealer has a more typical large structure on the Interstate exit.

[BLM777]

Actually, and I'll have to surf around to see if I can find a link, but I read somewhere just last week that HD's total revenue is more from the lecensing and sales of "Branded" merchandise than motorcycles.  Yes, they must keep making bikes to keep the brand alive, but those bikes aren't what makes the most money for the corporation.

Correct.  I reviewed the numbers likewise as well as stockholder reports pointing up the same gross revenue statistics.  Harley will continue to fare quite well, despite the downturn.  Some of the individual dealerships aren't even breaking a sweat over the recession/depression who have set up their marketing and retail show space to take advantage of the huge market in branded merchandise.  Many seem to fault the mother ship for expanding marketing, encouraging upscale retail operations that appeal to the general population as opposed to the "hard core" image, but those that have are weathering the storm with a broader base of income than the mom and pop holdouts and traditional low rent operations. 

Times are changing in the HD business model as I can think of one SCal dealer who exceeds gross motorcycle sales numbers with that of motorclothes targeting a market that has never swung a leg over a HD and several dealerships that I'm aware of that pay the monthly nut off of the same department.  Wanna see some big numbers, take a look at  the overseas motorclothes and memorabilia franchises that don't even stock a bike.

Hard for some to believe, but it's not about bikers hanging out on Saturday mornings looking for a free t-shirt.  Gotta hand it to corporate in many ways.  Marketing genius.

[spydglide]

Spyder, do you remember the original dealer in Roanoke Rapids (NC)?  They had a converted residential, brick ranch house on the outskirts of town (not the Interstate).  They had knocked the walls out for showroom and office space.  Still had the fireplace in the living room with chairs, lamps tables and carpet.  Magazines, a TV and free coffee.  They had built a cinder block garage structure on the side for service bays.  It was a really friendly, inviting place.  I think now that dealer has a more typical large structure on the Interstate exit.

Yep.  They've built the big box store now.....although last time I was there, they were still pretty customer oriented.  It's going to be interesting to watch which dealers do well during the next couple of years thru this 'downturn'.    spyder

[RedFXR2]

.... I read somewhere just last week that HD's total revenue is more from the licensing and sales of "Branded" merchandise than motorcycles.  

Correct.  I reviewed the numbers likewise as well as stockholder reports pointing up the same gross revenue statistics.  Harley will continue to fare quite well, despite the downturn.  Some of the individual dealerships aren't even breaking a sweat over the recession/depression who have set up their marketing and retail show space to take advantage of the huge market in branded merchandise.  Many seem to fault the mother ship for expanding marketing, encouraging upscale retail operations that appeal to the general population as opposed to the "hard core" image, but those that have are weathering the storm with a broader base of income than the mom and pop holdouts and traditional low rent operations. 

Times are changing in the HD business model as I can think of one SCal dealer who exceeds gross motorcycle sales numbers with that of motorclothes targeting a market that has never swung a leg over a HD and several dealerships that I'm aware of that pay the monthly nut off of the same department.  Wanna see some big numbers, take a look at  the overseas motorclothes and memorabilia franchises that don't even stock a bike.

Hard for some to believe, but it's not about bikers hanging out on Saturday mornings looking for a free t-shirt.  Gotta hand it to corporate in many ways.  Marketing genius.

Thanks for corroborating that--I still haven't found that article on the web.  You mention the overseas motorclothes memorabilia--that's another thing I remember from the article.  That HD makes a ton of money from licensing products that are never even seen in a HD showroom, even in Europe and cranking up in Asia as well.  Just selling permission to put the HD bar and shield on stuff makes them a lot of money.  No investment in capital equipment or floor space or inventory.  Just do the paperwork and collect the percentages.  As much as I sometimes gripe about their products, no doubt that HD has a brilliant marketing department.

[RedFXR2]

Yep.  They've built the big box store now.....although last time I was there, they were still pretty customer oriented.  It's going to be interesting to watch which dealers do well during the next couple of years thru this 'downturn'.    spyder

I think it's still the same family business (Collier's) so I would hope that they're just as friendly.  I just remember how neat I thought it was to pull up in front of a brick ranch house HD dealer outside of town on the state highway.  It was more like you were visiting friends or family than a business.

[screem]

Glad I'm to old to be a Yuppie.

 

Come on now we are all supposed to embrace the Motor  companys sheer genius of marketing others here are so proud of, Meet me at the big box dealership ...I i know i could find it if only I would buy a bluetooth Gps system that will store my ipod music and intergrate with my handsfree cell phone and web browser, When I finally get there I plan to use my HD Visa and purchase a pair of those nifty Harley jeans...you know the ones....the ones that say I am an individual.........No wait...it just occured to ....if I shop online from one of these big deal harley dealerships then i wont have to ride my bike down and chance getting it dirty....or god forbid...get caught in a rain storm...but if i did...I could pull out my offically liscenced product rain gear
     

[RedFXR2]

Hard for some to believe, but it's not about bikers hanging out on Saturday mornings looking for a free t-shirt.  Gotta hand it to corporate in many ways.  Marketing genius.

That HD makes a ton of money from licensing products that are never even seen in a HD showroom, even in Europe and cranking up in Asia as well.  Just selling permission to put the HD bar and shield on stuff makes them a lot of money.  No investment in capital equipment or floor space or inventory.  Just do the paperwork and collect the percentages.  As much as I sometimes gripe about their products, no doubt that HD has a brilliant marketing department.

Come on now we are all supposed to embrace the Motor  companys sheer genius of marketing others here are so proud of,      

Understand, I never said I was proud of it, or embraced it.  Or even agreed with it.  I'm just acknowledging it.

[hard10]

Come on now we are all supposed to embrace the Motor  companys sheer genius of marketing others here are so proud of, Meet me at the big box dealership ...I i know i could find it if only I would buy a bluetooth Gps system that will store my ipod music and intergrate with my handsfree cell phone and web browser, When I finally get there I plan to use my HD Visa and purchase a pair of those nifty Harley jeans...you know the ones....the ones that say I am an individual.........No wait...it just occured to ....if I shop online from one of these big deal harley dealerships then i wont have to ride my bike down and chance getting it dirty....or god forbid...get caught in a rain storm...but if i did...I could pull out my offically liscenced product rain gear
     

Screem, if you need some help setting it up let me know. I've done it a couple of times now. It's not as easy as you may think.

[screem]

Screem, if you need some help setting it up let me know. I've done it a couple of times now. It's not as easy as you may think.

  Thanx for the offer....but some cash in my pocket, a road map and a long weekend off and I'm good to go....I've always managed to get where I'm going and make it back home with out all the Hi-Tech goodies that seem so important too many these days...and oh yeah...I alaways leave my cell phone home too...instead I preform routine maintenance myslf on my bikes and carry a tool kit ....for those unexpected things that happen from time to time....and again, for over 35 years...I always make it home

[spydglide]

  Thanx for the offer....but some cash in my pocket, a road map and a long weekend off and I'm good to go....I've always managed to get where I'm going and make it back home with out all the Hi-Tech goodies that seem so important too many these days...and oh yeah...I alaways leave my cell phone home too...instead I preform routine maintenance myslf on my bikes and carry a tool kit ....for those unexpected things that happen from time to time....and again, for over 35 years...I always make it home

Ahhhhhh, a 'purist'.  Bet you don't listen to music on the bike either.  har!  spyder

[RedFXR2]

....but some cash in my pocket, a road map and a long weekend off and I'm good to go....I've always managed to get where I'm going and make it back home with out all the Hi-Tech goodies that seem so important too many these days...and oh yeah...I alaways leave my cell phone home too...

I'm with you on all that.  Well, I do carry a cell phone.

My car has built-in navigation and bluetooth.  I never use either.  Would have rather kept the cost they added to the price.  Never needed them allthese years.

[RedFXR2]

Ahhhhhh, a 'purist'.  Bet you don't listen to music on the bike either.  har!  spyder

Suer I do.  The "Potato-Potato Waltz".  Vary the RPM's a bit and i'ts like changing the disc on a CD player.

[AXIL]

  true music to my ear.  i only have one. no my name is not vincent.    axil

[inthewind729]

Corporate Harley Davidson arrogant?
    Ya mean like charging $16 for entrance into its new museum?
     Wheels Thru Time in Maggie Valley and the J&P museum in Iowa put the HD museum to shame at way less cost.
    Ya mean charging $30-35 for T-shirts so they can get free advertising on top of the $25 -30 profit off each shirt.
    Yeah they got some great marketing ideas geared toward people that will never own a HD motorcycle while screwing the people that have kept them going.
     I love the bike but aint to thrilled with the company. Sorta like enjoying the paintings of a great artist and not caring for the guy that cut off his ear. Threw that in for Axil's benefit hahahahahaha.
     By the way I was barred for 3 yrs from my local HD boutique for saying that "It's a shame that I can walk into a Harley shop and the only knucklehead I see is the owner"

Ride safe to one day ride free
Corky

PS   Thanks Naitram

[tazmun]

Taz, the only pensions I'm aware of that are truly government backed are actual government pensions.  There is an agency that guarantees private employer pensions, but it isn't funded by the USA, it's funded by premiums paid by the participating companies, the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation.  
http://www.pbgc.gov/
-------------------------------------------------------------
"PBGC is a federal corporation created by the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974. It currently protects the pensions of nearly 44 million American workers and retirees in more than 29,000 private single-employer and multiemployer defined benefit pension plans. PBGC receives no funds from general tax revenues. Operations are financed by insurance premiums set by Congress and paid by sponsors of defined benefit plans, investment income, assets from pension plans trusteed by PBGC, and recoveries from the companies formerly responsible for the plans."
-------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that the fearless leaders of our country have tweaked the rules on funding levels over the years to benefit big business (and therefore themselves) is what may lead to the need for Sugar Daddy to prop up this entity.  Pension trust funds are supposed to be 100% funded, based on actuarial estimates of each plans obligations.  Over the years, starting back in the 80's I believe, companies have cried poverty and the government has allowed them to either change the accounting rules for the funds or to actually pull money out of them.  Congress made changes in 2006 to force companies to fully fund their plans over the next several years, but we are already seeing companies crying to them about suspending required payments into the funds due to the poor economy (funny how those executive bonuses keep rolling though).  

This discussion came up once before, and once again I will share my opinion on the subject of pension plans.  Those of us who worked in companies with defined benefit pension plans did not enjoy the fat salaries of those folks who had to rely on their own savings or the various 401k, 403b, etc. plans.  The company included the cost of benefits and pensions when doing annual competitive salary studies, and I can personally assure you that my salary was significantly less than folks with similar duties and responsibilities in companies that didn't offer pensions.  In other words, my pension isn't some freebie from a benevolent employer that tax payers may have to subsidize; I earned every penny of it (and even funded part of it with my own extra contributions).  Even though my pension was 113% funded at the end of 2006, I'm just as nervous as those who had underfunded plans because I cannot trust our government and the bankruptcy courts to protect the little guy against the corporations.  Ask the retirees from the steel industry how well they were protected, as they take one or two jobs in their old age to make up for the screwing they received.

Jerry


Jerry,

 I gotta tell you, I agreed with what you said, but there is a lope hole in every plan.
Please read this:

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/CompanyFocus/up-next-a-huge-pension-bailout.aspx

Tazmun