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CVO Technical => General CVO discussion => Topic started by: psoff on August 30, 2017, 07:39:09 AM
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I was looking at Outpost Alaska's site checking out a few part numbers of the 2018's to add to my 2017. I was looking for the Lower Fairing speaker pods. That's when I noticed there are no radiators in the lowers. There is now a Oil Cooler in the center behind the front tire. No water pump, no lower radiators in each of the lowers. It also looks like it comes with the oil cooler fan shroud but maybe not the fan. I assume that still is an add on option. I then compared the coolant lines above the heads and the paths look to be the same, just now oil instead of water.
So now I must question which is the better system? if the water was better why would Harley change it? I would also like to note that my buddy with a 2017 Road Glide Special with Stage 3 114" and my 2017 SG CVO both have the rear cyl shut of enabled. My rear cyl. shuts down well before his does. Most times his never kicks in when my does. So that is leading me to believe my bike runs hotter than his, which his is oil cooled.
So Which is better? Also is it possible to remove my left and right lower fairings and the plumbing and add the parts from the 2018 CVO to make it Oil cooled just like the 2018? I never liked the Lowers. I would love to remove them for the looks of the bike.
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Harley changed the liquid cooled heads on 2 bikes. The 2018 CVO Streetglide and and the 2018 Road Glide. The Limited CVO remains liquid cooled. I asked the Sales Manager at my local dealer why Harley would go to a bigger motor (117) in the Cvos and not add liquid cooling to all of them. He stated that Harley seemed to think that the Streetglide CVO and the Road Glide CVO were around town bikes, while the Limiteds were designed for distance ....This led to more questions than answers as he tried to get me to trade my 2015 CVO Streetglide for a "deal" on a 2017 with an upgraded 117... I ride in average 20k per year, and both my 2012 RGU and my CVO run hotter around town in stop and go traffic, so I am unclear in this logic...
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The oil cooled system is cheaper and less effective. You would have to ask someone at H-D (not that they would tell you the truth of course) why they would do that, all I've seen is guesses from folks on the forum.
If you get an oil cooled version, I would highly recommend adding the fan to the oil cooler. Not making it standard is just one more case of Harley going cheap and making the customer pay much more to make it right.
Jerry
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the reason they switched to oil cooled is quite simple. To sell more bikes. There are people out there who won't buy a bike if you can't take the lowers off.
Like Jerry said, the Twin cooled system is more efficient using water based coolant, but the simpler system using oil will probably sell more bike because of the removable lowers.
Personally, I found that I'm more comfortable in all weather WITH the lowers on my Limited, but most folks don't want to hear about that... But, with that being said, I'm contemplating a switch to a bike using oil cooling just to eliminate the water pump and radiators as potential problems. Only time will tell...
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the reason they switched to oil cooled is quite simple. To sell more bikes. There are people out there who won't buy a bike if you can't take the lowers off.
Like Jerry said, the Twin cooled system is more efficient using water based coolant, but the simpler system using oil will probably sell more bike because of the removable lowers.
Personally, I found that I'm more comfortable in all weather WITH the lowers on my Limited, but most folks don't want to hear about that... But, with that being said, I'm contemplating a switch to a bike using oil cooling just to eliminate the water pump and radiators as potential problems. Only time will tell...
Have you ever investigated as to what all it would take to convert Water to Oil? First there is the mechanical/parts changes but what about ECU/software changes? If you remove the water pump will that throw a DTC, etc...?
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Have you ever investigated as to what all it would take to convert Water to Oil? First there is the mechanical/parts changes but what about ECU/software changes? If you remove the water pump will that throw a DTC, etc...?
Not interested in that approach. If I switch from Twin-Cooled, it will coincide with changing bikes. My bike has 25K on it after 3 years, so I'm already thinking about a change...
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Have you ever investigated as to what all it would take to convert Water to Oil? First there is the mechanical/parts changes but what about ECU/software changes? If you remove the water pump will that throw a DTC, etc...?
Yes, the ECU/BCM software is different. The oil pump is different The heads are different. The plumbing is different. There is a lot of stuff that is different. I seriously wouldn't even consider doing a conversion, especially when you'd be spending a ton of money to go backward in terms of function.
As for those who want the oil cooled system, which is definitely inferior, just so they can remove the lowers because they think the bike looks better without lowers, I have nothing good to say. Way too much of the stuff on Harley's that sucks comes from that "style over function" mindset. IMHO, the bikes look better WITH lowers. I also like the extra protection for my legs and feet (all those bits of debris and stones thrown up from the road seem to hurt a lot more as you get older).
Big Lew is right, makes more sense to just trade for the one that's already set up the way you want it versus converting. As far as I'm concerned you already have the better version, but I prioritize function over "style".
Jerry
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Yes, the ECU/BCM/software is different. The oil pump is different The heads are different. The plumbing is different. There is a lot of stuff that is different. I seriously wouldn't even consider doing a conversion, especially when you'd be spending a ton of money to go backward in terms of function.
As for those who want the oil cooled system, which is definitely inferior, just so they can remove the lowers because they think the bike looks better without lowers, I have nothing good to say. Way too much of the stuff on Harley's that sucks comes from that "style over function" mindset. IMHO, the bikes look better WITH lowers. I also like the extra protection for my legs and feet (all those bits of debris and stones thrown up from the road seem to hurt a lot more as you get older).
Big Lew is right, makes more sense to just trade for the one that's already set up the way you want it versus converting. As far as I'm concerned you already have the better version, but I prioritize function over "style".
Jerry
I also am for function when it comes to the Engine. That is why I posed the question in my first post up top...Is the water better than the Oil? So far I have only see people on here say it is better, BUT where is the data? Where is the Proof? Has anyone seen actually numbers that the Engine runs cooler with the current water system? My message above leads me to believe that water is not cooler, when my water cooled bike shuts down the rear cylinder before my buddies oil cooled does. I'm not saying that it is for sure with out hard data though, but it does make one question why is that happening. And now you see MoCo release the 117 to production with only oil cooled and no fans. All of this really makes room to argue that maybe this particular water cooled design might not be a superior as everyone might think.
I agree in Theory water is a better more consistent method of cooling, but perhaps this system is flawed in it's design or does not make much of a difference when compared to the oil cooled.
I really would like to see hard comparable numbers over just taking everyone's assumptions.
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I have had several oil cooled, and have a wethead currently. If the engine is properly tuned, I don't really believe there's a difference. My personal opinion is I prefer not having lowers when it's really hot outside because I "feel" more of the heat. If you look at the wethead bikes, there's a lot of "stuff" in the path of the air that limits the volume of air moving past the fins on the engine. At lower speeds my wethead feels a lot hotter than the bikes I've had without lowers. With that said, opinions are like........ well you know.
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Easy enough to track engine temps if you have the right tools, since the data is available from the ECM and can be pulled up with various scan tools and things like a Power Vision. All you have to do is find a large group of Harley owners, half with Twin Cooled models and half with oil cooled, have all of them install a PV or similar device to provide engine temp readings, and then have everyone set out on a varied ride including long periods of sitting in traffic, low speed cruising, and highway cruising. Each rider will need a passenger to write down readings, and all passengers will need to be in voice contact so they can write down readings at the same times. Or everyone could just invest in logging equipment to automate the data collection process.
Odds are that in highway cruising either system would be OK. Once you get to low speed and no speed situations, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Twin Cooled system will maintain a more consistent head temperature.
If you want to blow a bunch of cash to convert from one to the other, go for it and report the results. If you're waiting for someone else to run a statistically valid test and report the findings, I think it will be a long wait. And I'd have to have more than just a few opinions without supporting facts to blow that kind of money myself.
JMHO - Jerry
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I also am for function when it comes to the Engine. That is why I posed the question in my first post up top...Is the water better than the Oil? So far I have only see people on here say it is better, BUT where is the data? Where is the Proof? Has anyone seen actually numbers that the Engine runs cooler with the current water system? My message above leads me to believe that water is not cooler, when my water cooled bike shuts down the rear cylinder before my buddies oil cooled does. I'm not saying that it is for sure with out hard data though, but it does make one question why is that happening. And now you see MoCo release the 117 to production with only oil cooled and no fans. All of this really makes room to argue that maybe this particular water cooled design might not be a superior as everyone might think.
I agree in Theory water is a better more consistent method of cooling, but perhaps this system is flawed in it's design or does not make much of a difference when compared to the oil cooled.
I really would like to see hard comparable numbers over just taking everyone's assumptions.
Did your buddy's bike get dyno tuned to add more fuel, is yours stock, that could be the difference.
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the odd part of the equation is that beginning with the rushmore bikes, the parameters for engaging the eitms changed. both of your bikes have the same parameters, one of which is ambient temp > 80*, so both bikes should be kicking in at roughly the same time.
like the question asked above, is your buddy's bike tuned with a device that perhaps changed the parameters of the eitms?
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the odd part of the equation is that beginning with the rushmore bikes, the parameters for engaging the eitms changed. both of your bikes have the same parameters, one of which is ambient temp > 80*, so both bikes should be kicking in at roughly the same time.
like the question asked above, is your buddy's bike tuned with a device that perhaps changed the parameters of the eitms?
He has the Stage 3 (107 to 114) with the Harley Stage 3 tune from the dealer. With new EPA regulations the dealers can not tune the bikes they can only flash the ECU with the provided tune from Harley. So I would assume the parameters would be the same
For the other person that assumed I would go spend a ton of money to convert it... I never said I would do it no matter the cost. I posed the question as to what it would take is it was desired. If it was a simple low cost conversion I might have considered it. It obviously is probably not cost effective to do it, so I wouldn't do it.
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Check out a thread in the SG section I started re: lack of water cooling if you wish.
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HD basically cheaped out.
1. For removing water cooling (all the expenses they saved right there)
2. For not adding a fan to the oil cooler (especially on the CVO models for christ sake)
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I am not a big fan of lowers either for looks or summer riding but when I got my 17 i had no choice. When I took it to my tuner with the TTS he told me the twin cooled bikes ran much cooler and he has been tuning Harleys for years.
I will say that even in theses crazy hot temps we have been having in SoCal running in the low 100's my bike has run very cool. I did add the cool fan so not sure how much that has to do with it but many weekends I ride the 17 on Sat and the 12 (no lowers) on Sunday and even without the lowers the 17 runs way cooler. Maybe cool fan, maybe new M8 motor but for sure big difference. To be fair my 12 has a S&S 124 but I never felt a difference in heat between that motor and the 110.
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Harley changed the liquid cooled heads on 2 bikes. The 2018 CVO Streetglide and and the 2018 Road Glide. The Limited CVO remains liquid cooled. I asked the Sales Manager at my local dealer why Harley would go to a bigger motor (117) in the Cvos and not add liquid cooling to all of them. He stated that Harley seemed to think that the Streetglide CVO and the Road Glide CVO were around town bikes, while the Limiteds were designed for distance ....This led to more questions than answers as he tried to get me to trade my 2015 CVO Streetglide for a "deal" on a 2017 with an upgraded 117... I ride in average 20k per year, and both my 2012 RGU and my CVO run hotter around town in stop and go traffic, so I am unclear in this logic...
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I agree. I'd rather have the cooling on an "Around Town" bike than a touring bike. Never had a heat issue when going 75mph.
And SG/RG an around town bike.......wow ::)
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I'm in the dump the radiators group, they are ugly, provide too much restriction of air flow to the rider, and it doesn't provide enough engine cooling to make up for the hot sweaty increase in body temp from reduced air flow that the lowers restrict.
Sign me up for no lowers and I have the 16 with them, would gladly remove them if I could without killing whats left of the warranty, If I had only followed my own intuition about them I'd have skipped buying a bike with them, thats what happens when you buy a bike in November LOL.
Ride one in FL in May to Sept and you understand why they literally suck the air out of your ride
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HD basically cheaped out.
1. For removing water cooling (all the expenses they saved right there)
2. For not adding a fan to the oil cooler (especially on the CVO models for christ sake)
Oil cooled 18 CVO SG & RG have the fan installed.
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I was under both a CVO RG and CVO SG yesterday, Joe is 100% correct they both have the oil cooler, with a fan.
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I'm in the dump the radiators group, they are ugly, provide too much restriction of air flow to the rider, and it doesn't provide enough engine cooling to make up for the hot sweaty increase in body temp from reduced air flow that the lowers restrict.
Sign me up for no lowers and I have the 16 with them, would gladly remove them if I could without killing whats left of the warranty, If I had only followed my own intuition about them I'd have skipped buying a bike with them, thats what happens when you buy a bike in November LOL.
Ride one in FL in May to Sept and you understand why they literally suck the air out of your ride
I agree. Either water cool the entire engine or stay with air cooling. Having two radiators, two fans, hoses going everywhere, and being permanently committed to lowers year round, just to cool two exhaust ports isn't worth it.
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Oil cooled 18 CVO SG & RG have the fan installed.
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Well that’s good. A few people on here said they did not. Good to know, that HD is a little less cheap.
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Oil cooled 18 CVO SG & RG have the fan installed.
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Something obviously changed from the first information I saw. How about the non-CVO bikes? They need the fan too.
Jerry
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Something obviously changed from the first information I saw. How about the non-CVO bikes? They need the fan too.
Jerry
Didn't bother checking a non-CVO bike. They weren't on the 17 non-CVO models but I'll take a look next time I'm at the dealership.
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Just my 2 cents. I have owned 6 Harleys. The 2016 CVOSG is way cooler in and on Florida roads than any of the tuned RK 103 bikes I had.
I don't really know how restricted the airflow is but air is getting to the lowers where the radiators are. I used to sit in traffic and feel like I was melting with my 2012 107 RGC and my tuned RK 103. No contest.
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I had a water cooled 15 CVO RG Ultra that I put 44K on and a water cooled 17 CVO Street glide I put 20,526 miles on. I have 2819 miles on my 18 CVO RG.
The two water cooled bikes are cooler than the 18. Did not notice much difference until I was in 85 degree heat, then I could feel more heat on my lower legs and right foot on the 18.
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I had a water cooled 15 CVO RG Ultra that I put 44K on and a water cooled 17 CVO Street glide I put 20,526 miles on. I have 2819 miles on my 18 CVO RG.
The two water cooled bikes are cooler than the 18. Did not notice much difference until I was in 85 degree heat, then I could feel more heat on my lower legs and right foot on the 18.
I agree with David. I have had three twin cooled bikes, two 110s and a 114. I now have a 18 CVO Street Glide and in 80 degree weather I feel more heat from the 18 than I did from the twin cooled in 90+ degree.
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My wife and I have noticed a decent difference in leg temp between our 14' 103 and our 17' 114 bikes.
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Just a theory--- the m8 has more overall valve seat area for heat to transfer into the head where the oil can effectively cool it.
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I like the water cooled but 7nderstand the desire to remove the lowers
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Professional reviews of twin cooled vs non find slightly more power in those bikes due to engines running cooler. Another side benefit!
I have had several oil cooled, and have a wethead currently. If the engine is properly tuned, I don't really believe there's a difference. My personal opinion is I prefer not having lowers when it's really hot outside because I "feel" more of the heat. If you look at the wethead bikes, there's a lot of "stuff" in the path of the air that limits the volume of air moving past the fins on the engine. At lower speeds my wethead feels a lot hotter than the bikes I've had without lowers. With that said, opinions are like........ well you know.
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for me twin cooled wins out... if you ride you will be stuck in stop n go traffic and the heat will get you, and the bike suffers tooo. the pay off of the lowers w/rads is greater than with out.... and no data to support my claims just my 2 cents
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Well that’s good. A few people on here said they did not. Good to know, that HD is a little less cheap.
The 2018's RG & SG do not have the fan! They only have an empty shroud. HD did cheap out! you have to pay the Harley tax if you want a fan cooled oil cooler on your CVO!!
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I just made an appointment to have one installed. It will be in for my 1000 mile checkup. They have to flash the ecm to make it come alive
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