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CVO Technical => Milwaukee-Eight => Topic started by: 1Riseaboveit on May 28, 2018, 09:12:27 PM
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Well, I just bought a 2018 CVO Limited. I love this scooter so far, but...
Today, while riding for about an hour, I notice it seems to sound different and lost a little bit of power. It has 400 miles on it. The throttle response is hesitant and it doesn't want to accelerate like it should.
The bike is completely stock except the baffles in the mufflers have been removed.
Is it "Sumping"???
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Well, I just bought a 2018 CVO Limited. I love this scooter so far, but...
Today, while riding for about an hour, I notice it seems to sound different and lost a little bit of power. It has 400 miles on it. The throttle response is hesitant and it doesn't want to accelerate like it should.
The bike is completely stock except the baffles in the mufflers have been removed.
Is it "Sumping"???
Hard to tell on that limited description but its highly likely that it is sumping.
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I ran it pretty hard up to 110mph. When I went back to 70 you could hear a difference in the exhaust. The engine sputtered when you hit the throttle and feels sluggish. A definite loss in power and/Or acceleration.
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I just had a similar experience on a trip. It was not pulling uphill the way I expected. All of a sudden I had a complete failure/shutdown on a straightaway. My Crank Position Sensor went bad on me with 2671 miles on the bike. Sensor replaced under warranty and all's good again. YMMV. Unfortunately, that may or may not be what you are experiencing and HD normally won't look at this sort of thing until there is a catastrophic failure.
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I ran it pretty hard up to 110mph. When I went back to 70 you could hear a difference in the exhaust. The engine sputtered when you hit the throttle and feels sluggish. A definite loss in power and/Or acceleration.
Are you supposed to run those kind of rpm’s when still under the break in mileage? If I remember no full throttle acceleration or rpm over 3500 in the first 500 miles. Running it hard up to 110 probably checked both of those off the list.
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Are you supposed to run those kind of rpm’s when still under the break in mileage? If I remember no full throttle acceleration or rpm over 3500 in the first 500 miles. Running it hard up to 110 probably checked both of those off the list.
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It doesn't matter if he did it before or after 500 miles, the engine shouldn't sump either way.
Jerry
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It doesn't matter if he did it before or after 500 miles, the engine shouldn't sump either way.
Jerry
That’s true but we also don’t know it’s sumping either. He said sputtering issues, sumped engines won’t sputter will they?
I didn’t mean to infer that the op caused the issues & I’m sure there are many schools of thought on break in procedures but I guess I’m a sheep & just follow the manufactures guidelines, right or wrong.
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Well, I just bought a 2018 CVO Limited. I love this scooter so far, but...
Today, while riding for about an hour, I notice it seems to sound different and lost a little bit of power. It has 400 miles on it. The throttle response is hesitant and it doesn't want to accelerate like it should.
The bike is completely stock except the baffles in the mufflers have been removed.
Is it "Sumping"???
not good from what many have witnessed.
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I ended up taking my scooter to the local dealer. They have checked it out and are replacing the oil pump.
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I ended up taking my scooter to the local dealer. They have checked it out and are replacing the oil pump.
Sounds like the start of a great relationship! :nixweiss:
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I ended up taking my scooter to the local dealer. They have checked it out and are replacing the oil pump.
Read some of the other "sumping" threads around here and become as informed as possible about this problem and the proper way to check for damage. Just replacing the oil pump without also doing a full inspection for internal engine damage is NOT the right way to address this problem.
Jerry
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Read some of the other "sumping" threads around here and become as informed as possible about this problem and the proper way to check for damage. Just replacing the oil pump without also doing a full inspection for internal engine damage is NOT the right way to address this problem.
Jerry
I disagree. Even if sumping caused he slight lack of power no damage would occur unless power kept reducing and he kept on pushing it.
My stg 2 CVO has sumped twice - noticeable loss of power after fast running. No damage was sustained. At any rate, dealer will get a chance to review any damage when they change the pump. That's what my dealer did.
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I disagree. Even if sumping caused he slight lack of power no damage would occur unless power kept reducing and he kept on pushing it.
My stg 2 CVO has sumped twice - noticeable loss of power after fast running. No damage was sustained. At any rate, dealer will get a chance to review any damage when they change the pump. That's what my dealer did.
Damaged caused from sumping can only be determined by removing heads and cylinders to check free rotation if crank and rods as prescribed in SB1450. How much damage was caused is determined by how long it ran in sumped conditions, how many times it sumped and how hot it ran.
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Damaged caused from sumping can only be determined by removing heads and cylinders to check free rotation if crank and rods as prescribed in SB1450. How much damage was caused is determined by how ling it ran in sumped conditions, how many times it sumped and how hot it ran.
Yes, I would've asked dealer to follow 1450 as you state above if I suspected my motor sustained any damage. In both instances, normal power and operation returned after a long idle followed by a cool down.
Anyhoo, how's your 4th engine going? I keep watching your other thread for an update.
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Yes, I would've asked dealer to follow 1450 as you state above if I suspected my motor sustained any damage. In both instances, normal power and operation returned after a long idle followed by a cool down.
Anyhoo, how's your 4th engine going? I keep watching your other thread for an update.
4th engine continues to run great. It now has over 1500 miles on it.
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Well, I just bought a 2018 CVO Limited. I love this scooter so far, but...
Today, while riding for about an hour, I notice it seems to sound different and lost a little bit of power. It has 400 miles on it. The throttle response is hesitant and it doesn't want to accelerate like it should.
The bike is completely stock except the baffles in the mufflers have been removed.
Is it "Sumping"???
Any time you suspect it's sumping, pull in the clutch and free rev it a few times. If there is excessive oil in the crankcase the RPMs will drop much quicker than normal when you release the throttle as the motor is being drug down by the oil. If you were to down shift and roll off the throttle, it will literally throw you forward on the bike. If any of this is going on pull over and let it idle for 5 minutes while holding it upright, not on the sidestand. There is another option if your under warranty and close to your dealer. As it looses power just keep downshifting and holding it wide open. Heatwave can explain the rest of the process.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Thanks for the instructions Steve, that is very informative, especially if crossing AZ!
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Any time you suspect it's sumping, pull in the clutch and free rev it a few times. If there is excessive oil in the crankcase the RPMs will drop much quicker than normal when you release the throttle as the motor is being drug down by the oil. If you were to down shift and roll off the throttle, it will literally throw you forward on the bike. If any of this is going on pull over and let it idle for 5 minutes while holding it upright, not on the sidestand. There is another option if your under warranty and close to your dealer. As it looses power just keep downshifting and holding it wide open. Heatwave can explain the rest of the process.
Steve@fullsac.com
What he said.... that’s a good description. Another simple approach is just leave it in the gear you normally would be in at those rpms. Hit the throttle hard to accelerate as if you were pulling onto a highway. If the bike simply doesn’t respond to the throttle to accelerate hard (like it does when the bike is fresh out of the garage), then your bike is sumping. Its a pretty simple test.
At that point, the longer you run on the road, the more you’ll fill the crankcase with oil and the hotter the engine will get.
The quick, short term solution is what Steve described. Get to a safe location. Park the bike. Let it cool down somewhat if its really hot. Then stand the bike up and let it idle. Maybe 5mins, maybe 10 mins. Hard to say how long. At some point, the oil should get cleared from the crankcase. Then get the bike to the dealer.
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4th engine continues to run great. It now has over 1500 miles on it.
Great news!!
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Well, between me and the techs riding it... We're up to 800 miles. My local dealer replaced the oil pump. I made it 20 miles from there before it sumped again. I took it straight back and the confirmed that is exactly what is going on. Now what?
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Well, between me and the techs riding it... We're up to 800 miles. My local dealer replaced the oil pump. I made it 20 miles from there before it sumped again. I took it straight back and the confirmed that is exactly what is going on. Now what?
Contact H-D Customer Service. Check out the thread by Heatwave on this subject for a history of what's been done with his, and the thread by SDCVO on his. Just throwing a new oil pump in one of these engines that's sumping hasn't been the answer, and I also get the impression that some dealerships (perhaps the majority) are not very capable. The sooner you get H-D corporate involved the better IMHO. Good luck.
Jerry
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Thank you. The dealership where my scooter currently is... Plans to contact support tomorrow. They've already talked about a complete replacement engine.
I'm going to check out those treads now...
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Thank you. The dealership where my scooter currently is... Plans to contact support tomorrow. They've already talked about a complete replacement engine.
I'm going to check out those treads now...
What's the latest on your bike?
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What's the latest on your bike?
He hasn't been on the forum since Aug. 8th. Wonder if he still owns a Harley? SMH
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Hello Gents,
Just a little update... The MOCO decided to void my powertrain warranty leaving me and my dealership stuck with the sumping issues and repairs. My warranty was voided because while the dealer was replacing the "upgraded" oil pump a TTS Mastertuner was installed. The regional tech never even showed.
My dealership went through my entire engine, found heat damage, and did a rebuild. At the time, this scooter had 800 miles on it... Sumping since day one.
At the same time MOCO eventually sent the new cam plate. Good news is... It does help. It DID NOT fix my sumping issues completely.
I live in central Florida and took my scooter on an Iron Butt Run. I left here and rode up to "The Dragon". I did 1175 miles that trip. It sumped minorly in comparison to how it used to. I would just stop and let it idle (standing straight up)until it was back to normal.
When I came back I took it to the shop again. Still believing it is a crank case pressure problem, they starting investing the venting. Where the breather lines come up to the back of the air cleaner... They noticed that the bolts used for venting (holding the air cleaner on with holes through them) were not providing adequate flow. They drilled them out. More like the size on the old 110s. This combined with running a little less oil has helped as well.
It still gives symptoms of sumping if I run it really hard, but everything that has been done has helped. At it's worst now... It may have a 15% to 20% loss in power for a very short time and corrects itself while riding.
Since I now own my powertrain (Thanks MOCO) I plan to do a 124 kit and the S&S pump setup soon.
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"My warranty was voided because while the dealer was replacing the "upgraded" oil pump a TTS Mastertuner was installed."
No, say it ain't so Joe!You mean to tell me that HD is actually doing something it promised to do?
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Was the ECM flashed back to stock before or at the dealer prior to the digital tech being attached ? ? ?
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Interesting update, thanks! Mine has not sumped. But I have been following these issues closely & believe they are crank pressure related. I run my bike a little under full on oil as it seems to like that also....so I don't smell oil every time I get off. As with you I plan on a 124 kit, pump & seal mod. Just waiting to see how all this sumping stuff shakes out in the long run or a concrete resolution is reached. Hope that's not to much longer! Now I want to take a look at those ac bolt holes.
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Interesting update, thanks! Mine has not sumped. But I have been following these issues closely & believe they are crank pressure related. I run my bike a little under full on oil as it seems to like that also....so I don't smell oil every time I get off. As with you I plan on a 124 kit, pump & seal mod. Just waiting to see how all this sumping stuff shakes out in the long run or a concrete resolution is reached. Hope that's not to much longer! Now I want to take a look at those ac bolt holes.
Looking more like a compensator sequel than a resolution.
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The dude in upped baffles out of his muffler and ran it to 110 mph! lol l
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True Unbalanced! Although I have not experienced these issues first hand ( Compensator & lifter) being new to Harley I have read plenty about peoples frustrations. I'm trying to be positive cause I love my bike. But if history is any indicator it my be awhile.....
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Hello Gents,
Just a little update... The MOCO decided to void my powertrain warranty leaving me and my dealership stuck with the sumping issues and repairs. My warranty was voided because while the dealer was replacing the "upgraded" oil pump a TTS Mastertuner was installed. The regional tech never even showed.
My dealership went through my entire engine, found heat damage, and did a rebuild. At the time, this scooter had 800 miles on it... Sumping since day one.
At the same time MOCO eventually sent the new cam plate. Good news is... It does help. It DID NOT fix my sumping issues completely.
I live in central Florida and took my scooter on an Iron Butt Run. I left here and rode up to "The Dragon". I did 1175 miles that trip. It sumped minorly in comparison to how it used to. I would just stop and let it idle (standing straight up)until it was back to normal.
When I came back I took it to the shop again. Still believing it is a crank case pressure problem, they starting investing the venting. Where the breather lines come up to the back of the air cleaner... They noticed that the bolts used for venting (holding the air cleaner on with holes through them) were not providing adequate flow. They drilled them out. More like the size on the old 110s. This combined with running a little less oil has helped as well.
It still gives symptoms of sumping if I run it really hard, but everything that has been done has helped. At it's worst now... It may have a 15% to 20% loss in power for a very short time and corrects itself while riding.
Since I now own my powertrain (Thanks MOCO) I plan to do a 124 kit and the S&S pump setup soon.
Wow... not sure what else to say. The sumping madness continues.....
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To those of you with an actual interest in my update... That's why I posted. I don't spend much time on this forum because of the negativity and criticism that people can't help themselves to post. If I told you the entire story from day one... Every conversation with everyone involved... Some of you may understand more. Some of you would still be assholes.
I'll be glad to answer PMs or calls, but I won't spend much time on this forum.
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To those of you with an actual interest in my update... That's why I posted. I don't spend much time on this forum because of the negativity and criticism that people can't help themselves to post. If I told you the entire story from day one... Every conversation with everyone involved... Some of you may understand more. Some of you would still be azzholes.
I'll be glad to answer PMs or calls, but I won't spend much time on this forum.
Glad we were of service ???
I looked back over this thread (the only one where you've posted in CVO Harley) and from the responses, I didn't note any comments that would direct you toward the south end of the north bound donkey comment. Actually, the posts seemed helpful and you posted thanks at least once.
You get out of something whatever you put in it. It actually is a very good forum. Show me a blog/forum/discussion group that DOESN'T have it's share of negativity and I'll show you....well, I don't have a rebuttal for that as I don't think you can show me one.
Good luck going forward with the current repairs and any future modifications including that 124... :2vrolijk_21:
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Glad we were of service ???
I looked back over this thread (the only one where you've posted in CVO Harley) and from the responses, I didn't note any comments that would direct you toward the south end of the north bound donkey comment. Actually, the posts seemed helpful and you posted thanks at least once.
You get out of something whatever you put in it. It actually is a very good forum. Show me a blog/forum/discussion group that DOESN'T have it's share of negativity and I'll show you....well, I don't have a rebuttal for that as I don't think you can show me one.
Good luck going forward with the current repairs and any future modifications including that 124... :2vrolijk_21:
Well said Haird. Can’t please everyone all the time. His loss.
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Well said Haird! Thanks, I couldn't have said it that well.
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Well said Haird! Thanks, I couldn't have said it that well.
I guess some folks come on a forum and are not prepared to accept the truth...they want validation that everything is sunshine and roses. The MoCo canceled his powertrain warranty, even though his mods had nothing to do with his engine failure/sumping. I'm not sure how that's anything but a negative - first on the engine design and secondly on a company's position regarding how they treat warranty claims due to a faulty design. Other than that, everything is sunny and rosy.
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So, if I understand the gist of this thread, an asshole came on the forum so he could post about his Harley engine failure, then called the folks who responded to his thread negative assholes. What I take away from this is a positive asshole is OK, but not a negative asshole. Is that like an inie and an outie in belly buttons? I'm confused. :confused5:
Jerry
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Just read a PM with a link saying this was a thread for assholes. And I wasn't here yet. Very sorry to whomever might be the OP and any other assholes who might have been left hanging.
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Glad we were of service ???
I looked back over this thread (the only one where you've posted in CVO Harley) and from the responses, I didn't note any comments that would direct you toward the south end of the north bound donkey comment. Actually, the posts seemed helpful and you posted thanks at least once.
You get out of something whatever you put in it. It actually is a very good forum. Show me a blog/forum/discussion group that DOESN'T have it's share of negativity and I'll show you....well, I don't have a rebuttal for that as I don't think you can show me one.
Good luck going forward with the current repairs and any future modifications including that 124... :2vrolijk_21:
I wasn't referring to anyone on this thread specifically. Maybe I should have clarified. Between Facebook Groups, This forum, and other forms I have been involved in... It just seems to be a trend. You are right. You get out of it what you put into it. I started sharing my experience with others because I hope to save some people the headaches me and my family have been put through.
I'm no expert. I have like many others learned the hard way a very expensive lesson about my new scooter, M8s, Sumping, Warranties issues, and the MOCO.
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Just read a PM with a link saying this was a thread for assholes. And I wasn't here yet. Very sorry to whomever might be the OP and any other assholes who might have been left hanging.
Better late than never...