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Author Topic: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???  (Read 12857 times)

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psoff

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2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« on: August 30, 2017, 07:39:09 AM »

I was looking at Outpost Alaska's site checking out a few part numbers of the 2018's to add to my 2017. I was looking for the Lower Fairing speaker pods. That's when I noticed there are no radiators in the lowers. There is now a Oil Cooler in the center behind the front tire. No water pump, no lower radiators in each of the lowers. It also looks like it comes with the oil cooler fan shroud but maybe not the fan. I assume that still is an add on option. I then compared the coolant lines above the heads and the paths look to be the same, just now oil instead of water.
So now I must question which is the better system? if the water was better why would Harley change it? I would also like to note that my buddy with a 2017 Road Glide Special with Stage 3 114" and my 2017 SG CVO both have the rear cyl shut of enabled. My rear cyl. shuts down well before his does. Most times his never kicks in when my does. So that is leading me to believe my bike runs hotter than his, which his is oil cooled.
So Which is better? Also is it possible to remove my left and right lower fairings and the plumbing and add the parts from the 2018 CVO to make it Oil cooled just like the 2018? I never liked the Lowers. I would love to remove them for the looks of the bike.
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CVO 2015

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2017, 08:42:57 AM »

Harley changed the liquid cooled heads on 2 bikes. The 2018 CVO Streetglide and and the 2018 Road Glide.  The Limited CVO remains liquid cooled.  I asked the Sales Manager at my local dealer why Harley would go to a bigger motor (117) in the Cvos and not add liquid cooling to all of them.  He stated that Harley seemed to think that the Streetglide CVO and the Road Glide CVO were around town bikes, while the Limiteds were designed for distance ....This led to more questions than answers as he tried to get me to trade my 2015 CVO Streetglide for a "deal" on a 2017 with an upgraded 117... I ride in average 20k per year, and both my 2012 RGU and my CVO run hotter around town in stop and go traffic, so I am unclear in this logic...

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grc

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2017, 08:47:53 AM »


The oil cooled system is cheaper and less effective.  You would have to ask someone at H-D (not that they would tell you the truth of course) why they would do that, all I've seen is guesses from folks on the forum.

If you get an oil cooled version, I would highly recommend adding the fan to the oil cooler.  Not making it standard is just one more case of Harley going cheap and making the customer pay much more to make it right.

Jerry
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BigLew55

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2017, 09:31:29 AM »

the reason they switched to oil cooled is quite simple.  To sell more bikes.  There are people out there who won't buy a bike if you can't take the lowers off.

Like Jerry said, the Twin cooled system is more efficient using water based coolant, but the simpler system using oil will probably sell more bike because of the removable lowers.

Personally, I found that I'm more comfortable in all weather WITH the lowers on my Limited, but most folks don't want to hear about that...  But, with that being said, I'm contemplating a switch to a bike using oil cooling just to eliminate the water pump and radiators as potential problems.  Only time will tell...
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psoff

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2017, 09:42:29 AM »

the reason they switched to oil cooled is quite simple.  To sell more bikes.  There are people out there who won't buy a bike if you can't take the lowers off.

Like Jerry said, the Twin cooled system is more efficient using water based coolant, but the simpler system using oil will probably sell more bike because of the removable lowers.

Personally, I found that I'm more comfortable in all weather WITH the lowers on my Limited, but most folks don't want to hear about that...  But, with that being said, I'm contemplating a switch to a bike using oil cooling just to eliminate the water pump and radiators as potential problems.  Only time will tell...

Have you ever investigated as to what all it would take to convert Water to Oil? First there is the mechanical/parts changes but what about ECU/software changes? If you remove the water pump will that throw a DTC, etc...? 
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BigLew55

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2017, 10:01:25 AM »

Have you ever investigated as to what all it would take to convert Water to Oil? First there is the mechanical/parts changes but what about ECU/software changes? If you remove the water pump will that throw a DTC, etc...?
Not interested in that approach.  If I switch from Twin-Cooled, it will coincide with changing bikes.  My bike has 25K on it after 3 years, so I'm already thinking about a change...
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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2017, 11:59:12 AM »

Have you ever investigated as to what all it would take to convert Water to Oil? First there is the mechanical/parts changes but what about ECU/software changes? If you remove the water pump will that throw a DTC, etc...?

Yes, the ECU/BCM software is different.  The oil pump is different  The heads are different.  The plumbing is different.  There is a lot of stuff that is different.  I seriously wouldn't even consider doing a conversion, especially when you'd be spending a ton of money to go backward in terms of function.

As for those who want the oil cooled system, which is definitely inferior, just so they can remove the lowers because they think the bike looks better without lowers, I have nothing good to say.  Way too much of the stuff on Harley's that sucks comes from that "style over function" mindset.  IMHO, the bikes look better WITH lowers.  I also like the extra protection for my legs and feet (all those bits of debris and stones thrown up from the road seem to hurt a lot more as you get older). 

Big Lew is right, makes more sense to just trade for the one that's already set up the way you want it versus converting.  As far as I'm concerned you already have the better version, but I prioritize function over "style".

Jerry
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 12:04:06 PM by grc »
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psoff

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2017, 12:13:07 PM »

Yes, the ECU/BCM/software is different.  The oil pump is different  The heads are different.  The plumbing is different.  There is a lot of stuff that is different.  I seriously wouldn't even consider doing a conversion, especially when you'd be spending a ton of money to go backward in terms of function.

As for those who want the oil cooled system, which is definitely inferior, just so they can remove the lowers because they think the bike looks better without lowers, I have nothing good to say.  Way too much of the stuff on Harley's that sucks comes from that "style over function" mindset.  IMHO, the bikes look better WITH lowers.  I also like the extra protection for my legs and feet (all those bits of debris and stones thrown up from the road seem to hurt a lot more as you get older). 

Big Lew is right, makes more sense to just trade for the one that's already set up the way you want it versus converting.  As far as I'm concerned you already have the better version, but I prioritize function over "style".

Jerry
I also am for function when it comes to the Engine. That is why I posed the question in my first post up top...Is the water better than the Oil? So far I have only see people on here say it is better, BUT where is the data? Where is the Proof? Has anyone seen actually numbers that the Engine runs cooler with the current water system? My message above leads me to believe that water is not cooler, when my water cooled bike shuts down the rear cylinder before my buddies oil cooled does. I'm not saying that it is for sure with out hard data though, but it does make one question why is that happening. And now you see MoCo release the 117 to production with only oil cooled and no fans. All of this really makes room to argue that maybe this particular water cooled design might not be a superior as everyone might think.
I agree in Theory water is a better more consistent method of cooling, but perhaps this system is flawed in it's design or does not make much of a difference when compared to the oil cooled.
I really would like to see hard comparable numbers over just taking everyone's assumptions.
 
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Jbbrown73

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 02:46:09 PM »

I have had several oil cooled, and have a wethead currently. If the engine is properly tuned, I don't really believe there's a difference. My personal opinion is I prefer not having lowers when it's really hot outside because I "feel" more of the heat. If you look at the wethead bikes, there's a lot of "stuff" in the path of the air that limits the volume of air moving past the fins on the engine. At lower speeds my wethead feels a lot hotter than the bikes I've had without lowers. With that said, opinions are like........ well you know.
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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2017, 03:37:07 PM »


Easy enough to track engine temps if you have the right tools, since the data is available from the ECM and can be pulled up with various scan tools and things like a Power Vision.  All you have to do is find a large group of Harley owners, half with Twin Cooled models and half with oil cooled, have all of them install a PV or similar device to provide engine temp readings, and then have everyone set out on a varied ride including long periods of sitting in traffic, low speed cruising, and highway cruising.  Each rider will need a passenger to write down readings, and all passengers will need to be in voice contact so they can write down readings at the same times.  Or everyone could just invest in logging equipment to automate the data collection process.

Odds are that in highway cruising either system would be OK.  Once you get to low speed and no speed situations, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Twin Cooled system will maintain a more consistent head temperature. 

If you want to blow a bunch of cash to convert from one to the other, go for it and report the results.  If you're waiting for someone else to run a statistically valid test and report the findings, I think it will be a long wait.  And I'd have to have more than just a few opinions without supporting facts to blow that kind of money myself.

JMHO - Jerry
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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 03:56:23 PM »

I also am for function when it comes to the Engine. That is why I posed the question in my first post up top...Is the water better than the Oil? So far I have only see people on here say it is better, BUT where is the data? Where is the Proof? Has anyone seen actually numbers that the Engine runs cooler with the current water system? My message above leads me to believe that water is not cooler, when my water cooled bike shuts down the rear cylinder before my buddies oil cooled does. I'm not saying that it is for sure with out hard data though, but it does make one question why is that happening. And now you see MoCo release the 117 to production with only oil cooled and no fans. All of this really makes room to argue that maybe this particular water cooled design might not be a superior as everyone might think.
I agree in Theory water is a better more consistent method of cooling, but perhaps this system is flawed in it's design or does not make much of a difference when compared to the oil cooled.
I really would like to see hard comparable numbers over just taking everyone's assumptions.
 
Did your buddy's bike get dyno tuned to add more fuel, is yours stock,  that could be the difference.

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skratch

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2017, 04:18:41 PM »

the odd part of the equation is that beginning with the rushmore bikes, the parameters for engaging the eitms changed.  both of your bikes have the same parameters, one of which is ambient temp > 80*, so both bikes should be kicking in at roughly the same time. 

like the question asked above, is your buddy's bike tuned with a device that perhaps changed the parameters of the eitms?
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psoff

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2017, 06:36:47 PM »

the odd part of the equation is that beginning with the rushmore bikes, the parameters for engaging the eitms changed.  both of your bikes have the same parameters, one of which is ambient temp > 80*, so both bikes should be kicking in at roughly the same time. 

like the question asked above, is your buddy's bike tuned with a device that perhaps changed the parameters of the eitms?

He has the Stage 3 (107 to 114) with the Harley Stage 3 tune from the dealer. With new EPA regulations the dealers can not tune the bikes they can only flash the ECU with the provided tune from Harley. So I would assume the parameters would be the same

For the other person that assumed I would go spend a ton of money to convert it... I never said I would do it no matter the cost. I posed the question as to what it would take is it was desired. If it was a simple low cost conversion I might have considered it. It obviously is probably not cost effective to do it, so I wouldn't do it.
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spook120

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2017, 07:01:09 PM »

Check out a thread in the SG section I started re: lack of water cooling if you wish.
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load97

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Re: 2018 SG CVO not water cooled???? Which is better???
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2017, 07:17:04 PM »

HD basically cheaped out.

1. For removing water cooling (all the expenses they saved right there)

2. For not adding a fan to the oil cooler (especially on the CVO models for christ sake)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 07:18:38 PM by load97 »
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