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Author Topic: Sumping, How best to tell?  (Read 26901 times)

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Designflaw

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Sumping, How best to tell?
« on: April 19, 2018, 03:53:04 PM »

In laminas terms, what is sumping, how to I check for it without pulling it all apart? What is the best way to tell if it is or has been doing? Pulling the bike out of hibernation, it was 1 quart low when I put it up in the winter in 2800 miles since changed. Total mileage is 3800+/-
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Sprintkid

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2018, 04:28:32 PM »

Sumping is when the suction side of the oil pump does not remove enough oil from the crankcase. When the flywheels rotate in the oil they turn it into a aerated state. This product gets introduced into the PCV hose that connects into the intake manifold. Once an abundance of this product builds up it ends up running into the air cleaner and saturates it. When you are riding the droplets of this oil hits the air rushing by and splatters down the right side of your shiny motorcycle. If you take a paper towel and wipe the underside of your aircleaner and it shows any signs of liquid, you probably are sumping. That's my less than technical version of "the World of Sumping". I have a 2011 CVO and had it happen to me at 17,000 mi. I corrected the issue with a different cam plate and pump (Fueling). I also did a cam change ( Tman) and lifter upgrade (S&S) at the same time. So far and 62,000 later everything is hanging in there. This is just one opinion of the many that are out there. If you search this site you can find many more technical explanations but I think this covers the basics. The bottom line is it sucks that it happens but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2018, 05:05:16 PM »

In laminas terms, what is sumping, how to I check for it without pulling it all apart? What is the best way to tell if it is or has been doing? Pulling the bike out of hibernation, it was 1 quart low when I put it up in the winter in 2800 miles since changed. Total mileage is 3800+/-
Did you do a stage 4 or stage 5 upgrade on the motor?
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Heatwave

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2018, 05:10:14 PM »

Sumping is when the suction side of the oil pump does not remove enough oil from the crankcase. When the flywheels rotate in the oil they turn it into a aerated state. This product gets introduced into the PCV hose that connects into the intake manifold. Once an abundance of this product builds up it ends up running into the air cleaner and saturates it. When you are riding the droplets of this oil hits the air rushing by and splatters down the right side of your shiny motorcycle. If you take a paper towel and wipe the underside of your aircleaner and it shows any signs of liquid, you probably are sumping. That's my less than technical version of "the World of Sumping". I have a 2011 CVO and had it happen to me at 17,000 mi. I corrected the issue with a different cam plate and pump (Fueling). I also did a cam change ( Tman) and lifter upgrade (S&S) at the same time. So far and 62,000 later everything is hanging in there. This is just one opinion of the many that are out there. If you search this site you can find many more technical explanations but I think this covers the basics. The bottom line is it sucks that it happens but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

This is accurate to a certain extent with older bikes. But the OP has a 2017 CVO. I’ve had 2 engines fail due to sumping on my 2017 CVO Limited. There was never a drop of oil that came out of the air cleaner. The sumping experience in the M8 is due to a miscalibration between the oil entering the crankcase and the oil being removed from the crankcase due to a defective oil pump and other engine design flaws. It is not an “all of a sudden” event. If you never ride more than 20-30 mins at a time, you'll likely never experience it. In fact you'll mask it because after building up oil in the crankcase, the next time you start the bike and let it idle for abit, it will empty the crankcase during idle. Sumping happens over time but only under certain circumstances such as rapid rpm changes over a period of time during hard riding in the twisties OR traveling longer distances at higher speeds on the highway. The amount of time is variable based on how mis-calibrated the oil flow is.

At first a sumping bike just feels slightly less powerful as it would on a normal hot day. But eventually the oil in the crankcase builds to the point that the crank is sloshing through the oil as it gets deeper in the crankcase. Eventually the crankcase fills leaving massive rotational resistance. Efforts to accelerate are met with...no response.  The engine simply can’t rapidly change rotational speed because of the resistance.

Engine failure comes from there being so much oil build up in the crankcase, that the pan is starved leaving no oil to be pumped to the top end. The engine also overheats just from all the resistance of too much oil in the crankcase. The engine begins to overheat and components such as bearings, lifters and worse begin to fail. The rider will never see an oil light which is quite disturbing as a significant design flaw in my opinion.

If you suspect sumping in an M8 engine, you should immediately read the latest version (there are 7 versions) of HD's Service Bulletin 1450 (attached below)

I hope that helps.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 06:47:32 AM by Heatwave »
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Tobias7000

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2018, 01:28:50 AM »

So my new 2018 CVO I purchased last month could have this issue?  The service note is not clear about which bikes come with the new oil pump. 


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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2018, 06:06:26 AM »

As of 11/15/2017 it states.
Page 1 - M8 107, 114 & 117 ci engines.
Page 2 - 2017 and 2018 model motorcycles equipped with a Milwaukee-Eight engine.....
Page 2 - This information applies to all "2017 and 2018" Touring, CVO, Trike, Touring Police and 2018 Softail model motorcycles with a Milwaukee-Eight engine.
Page 4 - Use oil pump (part no. 62400182 or 62400178) with a package date of 10/10/2017 or later for engines that are exhibiting sumping.

Unfortunately, it's pretty clear.

The way I read this the problem is not just related to engines with stage III or stage IV kits it's happening to stock engines as well. However, it does state that all installing the stage kits should install the new pump also.

What I don't understand is why this is not a "recall", it's total bs that this is not a recall.

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2018, 01:50:36 PM »

Thank you for the great responses, and descriptions. My 14 had an oil pressure reading, this one just has "Ok" or I suppose something else when not "Ok". Not that it has anything to do with my question, but I don't like not seeing numbers.

I ride hard through back roads a lot, and interstate around 80 a lot as well, I am almost always on it for more than an hour at a time. Weekend rides are all day in the back roads so I assume I am a candidate. Is there a visual check that can be done? I don't want to be couple hundred miles out and have something dump.

My bike is stock, I am going to change exhaust and go with the HD tuner so I can keep the gods happy.

Thank you Heatwave for the bulletin, I will definitely be reading.
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Heatwave

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2018, 02:00:19 PM »

Thank you for the great responses, and descriptions. My 14 had an oil pressure reading, this one just has "Ok" or I suppose something else when not "Ok". Not that it has anything to do with my question, but I don't like not seeing numbers.

I ride hard through back roads a lot, and interstate around 80 a lot as well, I am almost always on it for more than an hour at a time. Weekend rides are all day in the back roads so I assume I am a candidate. Is there a visual check that can be done? I don't want to be couple hundred miles out and have something dump.

My bike is stock, I am going to change exhaust and go with the HD tuner so I can keep the gods happy.

Thank you Heatwave for the bulletin, I will definitely be reading.

The only visual check that can be done without engine disassembly is to remove the Crank Position Sensor under the engine after the steps described in SB1450. If more than 6 fluid ounces is captured, then the engine is definitely sumping. Follow the steps in the bulletin precisely to determine if your engine is sumping. Best to have it done at a dealership. If you suspect the engine is sumping (loss of power). one temporary fix is to pull over and let the engine idle. The idling engine will eventually correct the imbalance and move the oil out of the crankcase and into the oil pan. Unfortunately, if those same riding/rpm/load conditions exist again, the oil flow imbalance will only return with an oil build up in the crankcase resulting in the potential for damage all over again.

Unfortunately all 2017 and up bikes now only include a message of "OK" or "Not OK" instead of an oil pressure reading like the 2014-2016 Rushmore bikes. There isn't even an HD accessory oil pressure sensor that could replace the existing sensor to provide a pressure reading. Clearly the MoCo does NOT want owners knowing the exact oil pressure reading. They much prefer the "dumbed down" approach of an oil pressure idiot light.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 02:04:07 PM by Heatwave »
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2018, 03:23:52 PM »

Since buying my ‘17 FLHXSE about a year ago I’ve only have been able to put a little over 400 miles on it. I’ve been a member here for almost 6 years. I thought this sumping thing was just with bikes that had engine mods done. But now I’m learning that it is even bone stock engines.
Read the the tech bulletin listed here. Seems like the oil pumps should just be changed out right away.
I can’t think that I’m gonna have to go on a long trip at highway speeds to have this happen and risk a catastrophic engine failure. As I’ve read about this issue I’m to the point that I don’t know if I can feel confident that I even trust this engine now. Geez!
I should say I haven’t had any problems so far, oh, but I only have 400 miles!!! No breakdowns yet! HAHA!
Should I just bite the bullet and have a new pump installed on my dime? Will the new pump really fix this issue?
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Heatwave

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2018, 03:56:47 PM »

Since buying my ‘17 FLHXSE about a year ago I’ve only have been able to put a little over 400 miles on it. I’ve been a member here for almost 6 years. I thought this sumping thing was just with bikes that had engine mods done. But now I’m learning that it is even bone stock engines.
Read the the tech bulletin listed here. Seems like the oil pumps should just be changed out right away.
I can’t think that I’m gonna have to go on a long trip at highway speeds to have this happen and risk a catastrophic engine failure. As I’ve read about this issue I’m to the point that I don’t know if I can feel confident that I even trust this engine now. Geez!
I should say I haven’t had any problems so far, oh, but I only have 400 miles!!! No breakdowns yet! HAHA!
Should I just bite the bullet and have a new pump installed on my dime? Will the new pump really fix this issue?

It will not be known for sure if this latest oil pump design (7th version) solves the issue until it has more time, miles and loads as the 2018 riding season begins in earnest. I hope in a month or so I can share my experience that the latest pump design has solved the issue. But I go into my own stage IV upgrade with my eyes wide open that it might not be the solution.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2018, 04:32:03 PM by Heatwave »
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2018, 04:17:49 PM »


There is a lot more to this issue than Harley is telling anyone.  Do any of you really believe that somehow they forgot how to design and manufacture an oil pump?  The M8 isn't some sort of cutting edge new to the world engine design.  The only differences in oil pumps as best I can tell should be between the oil cooled models and the twin cooled models, and as long as they install the correct pump it shouldn't be rocket science.  Seven revisions and still having failures tells me they don't have a clue and there are other factors involved besides the oil pump.  Either they are dumping too much oil into the crankcase, or the scavenge side of the pump is undersized or failing for some other reason.  Recently they blamed the techs installing the pumps, claiming they weren't aligning the pump properly.  In other words, they are getting desperate after making seven revisions and still not fixing the problem, and are looking for scapegoats.  Typical H-D.

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2018, 04:25:58 PM »

my buddy is on 7 th motor  just started to sump again 11 ounces of oil in crank case sensor 2017 cvo stage 4 kit
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2018, 06:01:37 PM »

my buddy is on 7 th motor  just started to sump again 11 ounces of oil in crank case sensor 2017 cvo stage 4 kit

If I was on my 7th motor, I think it would be time for buyback, how many days was he with out with 7 motors?


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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2018, 06:46:29 PM »

This is accurate to a certain extent with older bikes. But the OP has a 2017 CVO. I’ve had 2 engines fail due to sumping on my 2017 CVO Limited. There was never a drop of oil that came out of the air cleaner. The sumping experience in the M8 is due to a miscalibration between the oil entering the crankcase and the oil being removed from the crankcase due to a defective oil pump and other engine design flaws. It is not an “all of a sudden” event. If you never ride more than 20-30 mins at a time, you'll likely never experience it. In fact you'll mask it because after building up oil in the crankcase, the next time you start the bike and let it idle for abit, it will empty the crankcase during idle. Sumping happens over time but only under certain circumstances such as rapid rpm changes over a period of time during hard riding in the twisties OR traveling longer distances at higher speeds on the highway. The amount of time is variable based on how mis-calibrated the oil flow is.

At first a sumping bike just feels slightly less powerful as it would on a normal hot day. But eventually the oil in the crankcase builds to the point that the crank is sloshing through the oil as it gets deeper in the crankcase. Eventually the crankcase fills leaving massive rotational resistance. Efforts to accelerate are met with...no response.  The engine simply can’t rapidly change rotational speed because of the resistance.

Engine failure comes from there being so much oil build up in the crankcase, that the pan is starved leaving no oil to be pumped to the top end. The engine also overheats just from all the resistance of too much oil in the crankcase. The engine begins to overheat and components such as bearings, lifters and worse begin to fail. The rider will never see an oil light which is quite disturbing as a significant design flaw in my opinion.

If you suspect sumping in an M8 engine, you should immediately read the latest version (there are 7 versions) of HD's Service Bulletin 1450 (attached below)

I hope that helps
I have never seen this and thank you I think I am going to make a change!
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2018, 06:52:09 PM »

Does anyone know of any softail models with the slumping issues,just curious
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2018, 07:01:07 PM »

Does anyone know of any softail models with the slumping issues,just curious

2018 Softails with M8 engines are INCLUDED in the Service Bulletin.
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2018, 07:35:28 AM »

Has anyone used the fueling oil pump and cam plate ?
And if so has it helped
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2018, 03:40:48 PM »

He wants a buy back but they wont do it,Im thinking he has a test bike for them.He has 9000 miles on the bike .
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2018, 06:18:02 PM »

He wants a buy back but they wont do it,Im thinking he has a test bike for them.He has 9000 miles on the bike .

Depending on what state he lives in, they might not have a choice, most lemon laws include motorcycles, I would start with the Attorney General's office first.
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2018, 01:07:47 AM »

Thank you for the great responses, and descriptions. My 14 had an oil pressure reading, this one just has "Ok" or I suppose something else when not "Ok". Not that it has anything to do with my question, but I don't like not seeing numbers.

I ride hard through back roads a lot, and interstate around 80 a lot as well, I am almost always on it for more than an hour at a time. Weekend rides are all day in the back roads so I assume I am a candidate. Is there a visual check that can be done? I don't want to be couple hundred miles out and have something dump.

My bike is stock, I am going to change exhaust and go with the HD tuner so I can keep the gods happy.

Thank you Heatwave for the bulletin, I will definitely be reading.
the visual check is simple . before you leave on your rides check the oil when you have run 100 or 200 miles and stop for coffee or gas or just what ever  check the oil on a flat surface  again .  get the cell phone out and take a pic of things  like oil level before you leave and as your progress into your ride  and if you are out just  sport riding  and up and down  the rpm scale not  necessarily wide open which does not need to happen to get the motor  hotter than hell, and sump  like you never imagined possible. the heat is off the charts and the oil will stink so bad you will puke. this is a serious issue and not a thing so far as I know is a cure for this mess.   like may have stated is how in the sam hell does  hd get away with not having a  total recall with a fix or buy back?     this  sumping is very very dangerous to be sure when your in traffic and your bike is not able to get out of the way  when you think it should.  yes  you can easily tell when sumping is going on by checking oil,, and  heat, you can feel  and total loss of power. another thing is you just many not be able to get the dipstick out of the tank because the heat is so great and yo cannot even touch the dipstick  to turn it out so carry  rags and a ssmalll channel lock to  be nice to you equipment . yes its that serious  no reason to lie or bs anyone it is what its and like it or not  there are a lot of bikes that sooner or later are going to puke just wait and see.
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2018, 04:51:54 PM »

 Okay,  back on the bike paying attention to the comments and I'm not having any of the issues - knock on wood. I ride hard and fast. Bought my bike in  2016 so  Definitely early model.  Going to let the dealership do my 5000 mile oil change and check for sumping anyway. They are good friends of mine and won't BS me.

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2018, 01:13:19 PM »

Since buying my ‘17 FLHXSE about a year ago I’ve only have been able to put a little over 400 miles on it. I’ve been a member here for almost 6 years. I thought this sumping thing was just with bikes that had engine mods done. But now I’m learning that it is even bone stock engines.
Read the the tech bulletin listed here. Seems like the oil pumps should just be changed out right away.
I can’t think that I’m gonna have to go on a long trip at highway speeds to have this happen and risk a catastrophic engine failure. As I’ve read about this issue I’m to the point that I don’t know if I can feel confident that I even trust this engine now. Geez!
I should say I haven’t had any problems so far, oh, but I only have 400 miles!!! No breakdowns yet! HAHA!
Should I just bite the bullet and have a new pump installed on my dime? Will the new pump really fix this issue?
if your lucky it will  fix it.  if is a big word
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2019, 03:23:59 PM »

Not to dig up an old post but I figured people would like to know that my 2019 Black Forest street glide cvo with only 700 miles sumped on me when out for a long ride Sunday. Dealer has it now, we’ll see. Just bought it last month.
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2019, 03:50:21 PM »

Not to dig up an old post but I figured people would like to know that my 2019 Black Forest street glide cvo with only 700 miles sumped on me when out for a long ride Sunday. Dealer has it now, we’ll see. Just bought it last month.

Do you know yet if it had the sealed oil pump or was it an early 2019 with the older pump? Did the engine have any upgrades?
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2019, 03:51:33 PM »

Do you know yet if it had the sealed oil pump or was it an early 2019 with the older pump? Did the engine have any upgrades?
No upgrades all stock but I’ll find out when it was produced because I am not certain.


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load97

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2019, 10:36:18 AM »

Do you know yet if it had the sealed oil pump or was it an early 2019 with the older pump? Did the engine have any upgrades?

I didn't know there was a difference in oil pumps. Hopefully the newer one is better  :-\ I bought mine in April of this year so hopefully has the newer version.
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2019, 10:55:47 AM »

There is now a 2020 MY pump kit part number 62400247. Anybody have feedback on this latest version that claims to scavenge 44% more from the flywheel side?
Thanks
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Heatwave

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2019, 11:10:30 AM »

I didn't know there was a difference in oil pumps. Hopefully the newer one is better  :-\ I bought mine in April of this year so hopefully has the newer version.

Unfortunately you have the older oil pump version. The new version did not get installed from the factory until May 22, 2019.
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HD Street Performance

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2019, 12:15:59 PM »

How well is this working when you put one of the hot rods on a dyno, which seems to about worse case scenario?
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Heatwave

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2019, 12:23:26 PM »

How well have the older HD M8 oil pumps worked with "hot rod" engines? Most hot rod engines have aftermarket cylinders and pistons that can be "trued" before install, which removes one variable out of the sumping equation.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 12:25:45 PM by Heatwave »
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cvosjoe

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2019, 03:39:11 PM »

How well is this working when you put one of the hot rods on a dyno, which seems to about worse case scenario?
My 126 is at the tuners so I should have an answer soon. I put about 150 miles on it seating the rings and a little break in with no issues.

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2019, 08:20:10 PM »

My 126 is at the tuners so I should have an answer soon. I put about 150 miles on it seating the rings and a little break in with no issues.

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Which bike is this on?

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cvosjoe

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2019, 08:32:17 PM »

Which bike is this on?

Sent from my boring Droid phone.
I sold the Skunk and picked up a used 2017 Road Glide Special. Been following a lot of posts on the M8 and like the potential of these motors.

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2019 FLHXSE Charred Steel/Lightning Silver
2018 FLHXSE - Totaled
2017 FLTRXS Wicked Red Denim
2017 FLHXSE - Traded
2015 FLTRUSE - Traded
2014 FLHTKSE - Traded
2013 FLHTCUSE8 - Traded
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2019, 06:35:50 AM »

I sold the Skunk and picked up a used 2017 Road Glide Special. Been following a lot of posts on the M8 and like the potential of these motors.

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:2vrolijk_21:
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Phantom309

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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2019, 10:02:24 PM »

my buddy is on 7 th motor  just started to sump again 11 ounces of oil in crank case sensor 2017 cvo stage 4 kit

That's unreal! ... Is your buddy going for the Guinness Book of World records for patience??? At least he doesn't have to pay for oil changes ... just limp it in and change engines instead, what bs! Everytime you turn around there's always sumping wrong with these M8s and it's no secret. When people keep rewarding the idiots at HD buy buying one of these junk power-plants, they will continue to sell them. Glad I never even had the slightest interest to look at one or ride one let alone buy one. SEVEN so-called "fixes" and still no actual fix tells you there never will be one .... on HD's dime at least. I still can't believe people are even willing to roll the dice on this junk after all this time.

If that were me ... I would burn their wardrobe of clothing I had & remove any HD tatts from my body (proud to say I don't have either/any of those) and move on and never look back!       
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Re: Sumping, How best to tell?
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2019, 02:11:32 PM »

My 126 is at the tuners so I should have an answer soon. I put about 150 miles on it seating the rings and a little break in with no issues.

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Well we now know the 2020 pump is working well. Nice job Joe.
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