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[Midnight Rider]

Was listening to the radio (NPR) going home yesterday afternoon and they were talking about how we're getting ripped at the gas pumps because the pumps do not calibrate themselves for variations in ambient temps at the delivery point. The gas suppliers (tanker trucks) when pumping the fuel into the holding tanks ARE required to charge the gas station for the amount of fuel purchased based on ambient temps at delivery, but the pumps we use do not account for this variable, costing the consumer a good bit of money per year.  According to the story (I'm going on memory here), California has legislation to require gas stations to install pumps able to calibrate delivery based on ambient temps...Canada has apparently been doing this for YEARS.  The report was saying it is about a 3% error in charges at the pump, on average.  That chit adds up!!

In the California situation, the big oil companies are saying they will not allow their dealers to purchase the calibrated pumps.

Anyone else heard about his issue?

This post should probably be moved...d00d?

[CAFatBoy2006SE]

Haven't heard of this issue but as a former contractor in the refinery's I do know that ambient temp does change the amount of material pumped through a pump for oil so it only makes sense that in fuel it would do the same.

[Hoist!]

The density and specific gravity of a mass or fluid will vary based on temp. The following tabulates(PDF attachment) this for pure and tap water. This would hold true for gasoline or any other fluid. So the temperature definitely affects the volume! The thermal coefficient of expansion is different for all mass. I copied the table from an engineering site and attached it in PDF format. It shows the effect of different temps. for water. Gasoline would have different values, but the engineering principles apply! Hoist!

[CAFatBoy2006SE]

The density and specific gravity of a mass or fluid will vary based on temp. The following tabulates this for pure and tap water. This would hold true for gasoline or any other fluid. So the temperature definitely affects the volume! The thermal coefficient of expansion is different for all mass. I copied the table from an engineering site and attached it in PDF format. It shows the effect of different temps. for water. Gasoline would have different values, but the engineering principles apply! Hoist!

Damn Hoist, you have to remember we're not all rocket scientists like you. 

[Hoist!]

Damn Hoist, you have to remember we're not all rocket scientists like you. 

Just look at the attached table from that post. Pretty simple. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand. Oh yeah, you're from Calif! Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

On the scale of the national economy it might be an issue.  But individually it isn't squat.  Especially when you consider that fuel is so very rarely stored in above ground tanks anymore.  In buried tanks it stays cool.  Just remember what the handle feels like when you're pumping on even a very hot day.

There is Howie-math to be done for gasoline though.  It's volumetric coefficient of expansion is about 0.000528/ºF.  What's that mean?  If you bought ten gallons of fuel at $3.00 with a delivered temp of 100ºF you'd lose about 60 cents.  If the fuel comes out of the ground at about 60ºF (far more likely) you're right where you're supposed to be.  If the fuel comes out of the ground even cooler you might even be making a few cents.

So.... don't worry be happy.

[CAFatBoy2006SE]

Just look at the attached table from that post. Pretty simple. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to understand. Oh yeah, you're from Calif! Hoist!

Us Cali boys aren't that smart but we have good weather and smog. No snow here! Cheers!
 

[Hoist!]

Us Cali boys aren't that smart but we have good weather and smog. No snow here! Cheers!
 

We got rats and cockroaches! But they're smart ones! Hoist!

[Ceej]

It is a big deal for the country, being ripped off yet again by the oil companies. American truckers are getting hosed the worst. Yes fuel is stored underground, but not for long. Most of the big fuel stops are refilling constantly. Thats why during Katrina prices soared throughout the southeast as supplies ran short. This means the fuel spends little time in the tanks, more time in the trucks being heated by the air and sun in the spring summer and fall. OOIDA, a truckers rights group has been fighting this in court for years but is uphill against big oil. Temps taken in our truck fuel tanks after fueling up in warm weather is routinely in the 80's. When you buy 500+ gallons a week, it can be a difference. The Kansas City Star is up for some awards for a series it did on this topic.  http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/15370193.htm

[Twolanerider]

It is a big deal for the country, being ripped off yet again by the oil companies. American truckers are getting hosed the worst. Yes fuel is stored underground, but not for long. Most of the big fuel stops are refilling constantly. Thats why during Katrina prices soared throughout the southeast as supplies ran short. This means the fuel spends little time in the tanks, more time in the trucks being heated by the air and sun in the spring summer and fall. OOIDA, a truckers rights group has been fighting this in court for years but is uphill against big oil. Temps taken in our truck fuel tanks after fueling up in warm weather is routinely in the 80's. When you buy 500+ gallons a week, it can be a difference. The Kansas City Star is up for some awards for a series it did on this topic.  http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/15370193.htm

Sorry CEEJ, this is just one I've never been able to get too worked up over.  A delivery and measuring system that crosses several mediums for a product that is not absolutely stable isn't going to be absolute.  That's obvious and common sense dictates that some small variation is then to be expected.  Furthermore there just isn't any huge hit to the motoring economy.  A little?  Sure.  A big deal (relatively speaking)?  Not really.

Of course truckers will feel it worse.  You buy more so you'll feel it more.  Truck stops are also more likely to have above ground tanks.  Less than there used to be.  But still more common there than at the neighorhood Quickie Mart.

However, and I've got no complaint about the job the trucking industry does; it carries the national economy on its back; but I always cringe when I hear commercial drivers complain that costs of fuel, use taxes, etc are gouging them in any way. 

Yours is a sophisticated industry also.  Plenty of smart people figuring all the ins and outs.  Costs of fuel are part of the cost of doing business and passed along; just like every other cost of doing business.

So might summer time fuel loads short you just a bit?  Yeah, sure.  Winter time might gain you a bit though.  It's easy to only focus on the short end.  There are things out there really worth worrying about though.  And this one just doesn't really compete.

Y'know what, I can't say how important it is to anyone else.  It's not my place.  It may be a big deal to some.  I can say, however, that if this is someone's biggest concern I envy them.  Because they don't have a lot else to worry over.

[Ceej]

In general I agree with you Twolane - Not a big deal, not gonna lose any sleep over it myself. If I can't run my business and alot for various fluctions in prices and costs, and pass that cost on to my customers, I won't be in business long. I do despise the big oil & big trucking company sweetheart deals - These huge truck companies can buy fuel for as much as 30 cents less a gallon with some of these deals.

 It's the point of the matter that bugs me. The research shows, even in cooler areas of the country fuel temps don't drop down to 60 til December, so the warm season lasts plenty longer than the cool season to the benefit of the oil companies. The underground tanks work to their advantage, they are double walled to protect from leaks, also keeping fuels from cooling very quickly. All the pumping into truck, into tanks, into vehicles adds heat. That along with daily, and multi daily delivery's and the temps are higher than you would think.

The oil companies have it made and are making record profits hand over fist. They know for darn sure how this works and require temp calibrated metering of all the fuel they sell to retailers, so they can get every penny. The require temp calibrated metering by the trucks that pickup and deliver their fuels. If the cooler weather balanced things out, there would be the chance it could swing in favor of the consumer during any cold snap. If that chance existed, the oil companies would rush to upgrade the pumps. $2.3 Billion extra to the oil companies last year is the estimate. As I said earlier, Any cost increases I incurr get passed along to my customers, who pass it along to you, John Q. Public.

Its the point of the matter, the fine detail, and their banking on the US public not caring about the details.

[Twolanerider]

That all makes sense CEEJ.  We know it's going on.  We know the latest variation of the seven sisters benefits the most.  We know it's huge (relatively speaking).  But overall it's not just chump change either.

Short of easy solutions or Federal mandates, however, we're rather stuck with it.  And at least it's an evil we know and can factor in for.