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[Zig]

Anyone out there have experience with roller bearings skating?     I've been told it can happen due to using some synthetics which can actually be too slippery?
If so, can you say what oil brand, viscos, age and age of bearings pls?

thanks,

Zigg

[FLSTFI Dave]

I have yet to see actual proof of any oil being to slipery.  Not many years ago HD claimed all synthetic was to slippery.  Now they recommend it and even ship the CVO bikes with it.

I run Amzoil syn in the diesel truck, and mobile 1 in the boat and cars.  I run syn3 in the bike but will go to mobile 1 for it.

[dartman]

roller bearings skating

This was a Myth that was in vogue in the late 90's perpetuated by Harley Dealers Prior to HD selling their own brand of synthetics, This is the first I have heard the term in years, I have used Synthetic oils in all my bikes since 76 and have never had any of them experience this phenomenon.

[timo482]

the guy who came up with that marketing ruse probably could not put his erector set together.......

its BALONEY

what syn oil really does is not change its lubricating qualities as much when temp changes.. a straight 50 wt syn oil will flow like a 20-50 dino oil when cold so they call it 20-50 syn oil.. but it does not in fact have any flow modifiers in it.. it just never gets stiff.

syn oils are mfg rather than refined.. some are glycols, some are other esters. but what they offer is consistent lubrication regardless of temp. thus engines that run really hot and really cold do better with syn oils.. syn oils were developed for piston aircraft engines in wwII... they would not thin out when hot at low altitudes and would continue to flow and lubricate at high altitude at -30 f... regular oils start gelling up at such cold temps and would stop flowing in the oil lines - they were fine in the bearings where the heat was but not in the lines - syn oils would still flow and thus still lubricate. think of a corsair in a dog fight - full throttle from -30 air temp to 90 air temp and back 6 or 7 times in 5 or 10 mins.. regular oils fail in such condidtions.

HD engines ARE two cyl radial aircraft engines...

the reason a syn oil theoretcially should be better is that it will flow when cold - and wont thin out when hot.. it has NOTHING to do with slipperiness....

to

[AZ SESG]

 The information in the attached link is useful and it reinforces the points made in the previous post.
 http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/synthetic_vs_conventional_oil/index.html


 Nothing but synthetics in all of my rides and rods during the last fifteen years. 

[cahdbiker]

I appreciate this info because I am thinking about running amsoil straight 60 WT synthetic in both my bikes. I called Redline and they said they don't make a straight 60 WT synthetic. (09 SEUC and 95 Heritage with S&S 107). If you have any comments about this please let me know. Thanks CAHDBIKER.

the guy who came up with that marketing ruse probably could not put his erector set together.......

its BALONEY

what syn oil really does is not change its lubricating qualities as much when temp changes.. a straight 50 wt syn oil will flow like a 20-50 dino oil when cold so they call it 20-50 syn oil.. but it does not in fact have any flow modifiers in it.. it just never gets stiff.

syn oils are mfg rather than refined.. some are glycols, some are other esters. but what they offer is consistent lubrication regardless of temp. thus engines that run really hot and really cold do better with syn oils.. syn oils were developed for piston aircraft engines in wwII... they would not thin out when hot at low altitudes and would continue to flow and lubricate at high altitude at -30 f... regular oils start gelling up at such cold temps and would stop flowing in the oil lines - they were fine in the bearings where the heat was but not in the lines - syn oils would still flow and thus still lubricate. think of a corsair in a dog fight - full throttle from -30 air temp to 90 air temp and back 6 or 7 times in 5 or 10 mins.. regular oils fail in such condidtions.

HD engines ARE two cyl radial aircraft engines...

the reason a syn oil theoretcially should be better is that it will flow when cold - and wont thin out when hot.. it has NOTHING to do with slipperiness....

to

[miker]

20-60....

[SBB]

20-60 Redline....

Is there anything else?

 

SBB

[Talon]

Is there anything else?

 

SBB

KFC fryer oil! 

[miker]

Its just that multi viscosity oil allows greater flexibility is all... I run straight 60 dino in the oldy but would rather run a 20 weight at a cold start with the lubricity of a 60 weight at high temps in a modern motor is all...jussayin...

One can fill the crankcase with whatever makes them happy as long as it is clean.  I did notice however that sone buells I have seen apart lubed with Mobil 1 V had a slight crud buildup...these motors are from track bikes and ridden very hard.
 

[Vagabond6542]

A thought to consider, the higher the viscosity, the more heat it will retain at what ever the operating temperature of the engine may become. So the end result is where do you heat exchange the excess heat?

[miker]

It allows for greater retention, thus increasing lubricity...better slippery at higher temps is all...

[mjb765]

Is there anything else?

 

SBB

I use 20/50 Redline now and was thinking of 20/60. Living in the Northeast will this create a problem in the colder weather? I am out in 40 deg temps at times.

[miker]

20 is 20...

[mjb765]

but 50 is not 60

[Talon]

I have a large document on oil, that explains the viscosity of multi-grade oil. The first number is not the viscosity, it indicates how easily a motor will turn over at low temperatures, the second number is the viscosity of the oil at 100 degrees. A 10w 30 can't be 10w when cold and 30w when hot, that is backwards from what oil does. So a 10w30 is 30 w oil.

Craig

[mjb765]

so 60 is going to be too heavy for colder temps--or is that difference not going to matter much?

[Talon]

I can send you the document if you want it. There's a lot of detail several pages on Viscosity. Like I said the first number is a cold cranking number, the lower the number, the better ability for the motor to crank at low temps. There specific temps used, and a special machine to determine these numbers, but a 20w60 the SAE grade for viscosity would be 60. Just PM me with your email.
Craig

[mjb765]

I can send you the document if you want it. There's a lot of detail several pages on Viscosity. Like I said the first number is a cold cranking number, the lower the number, the better ability for the motor to crank at low temps. There specific temps used, and a special machine to determine these numbers, but a 20w60 the SAE grade for viscosity would be 60. Just PM me with your email.
Craig

PM Sent....thanks

[Sklywag]

So I will add some interesting food for thought, I am drawing no conclusions, nor am I knocking any oils.  I have used Red Line for some 30 years now in both my day to day vehicles and in NASCAR Stock Cars Dirt 1/4 mile) & in off road sand drag racing.  I also run it exclusively in my MC's.  The Ultra that Trudy bought this year has been on AMSOIL all its life (12,000 miles)  I was debating about switching it to Red Line or leaving it on AMSOIL as a comparison.

I knew the original chemist at Red Line & had stayed in touch with him for years until he retired, I have another person I stay in touch with now for questions.

So I sent him the latest white paper published by AMSOIL but as expected he had seen it & asked him some questions.  I have included my questions & his responsed plus the documents he sent me as well as the AMSOIL white paper.  Next few posts for all the attachments.

[Sklywag]

Hi Dave

Hope this finds you well.

Well, I have gone quite a while with no questions but I have a new one.

We bought my wife a Harley, an used 09 ultra with the 96" motor, all stock.  It has been on Amsoil for all 13,000 miles. 

I am definitely putting Red Line in the Motor, Primary & Trans.

My question is, I was just reading a new article published by Amsoil on oil comparisons.  Of course they never compare themselves to Red Line.  Does Red Line have anything new that shows basically all the points that Amsoil tests for?

You probably have seen it but I have attached the Amsoil white paper.

Thanks

Bill

---------------------------------

Bill,

Yes all is well here...

I have seen their motorcycle oil test, thanks for forwarding it.

In your new Harley I would recommend the 20W50 Motorcycle oil, it has a VI of 152 and is completely sheer stable 0% loss, the HTHS viscosity is 6.1cP. The zinc level in our Motorcycle Oil is 2500 ppm, the phosphorus and sulphur level is more important for flat tappet anti-wear protection, 2100ppm phosphorus. As noted in the test, the ZDDP level doesn't reflect on the four ball wear test results. I don't have those results for our Motorcycle Oils as we generally don't perform that procedure, it's results can be misleading, good performance doesn't necessarily translate into a better performing oil. We performed a comparison between our motor oils and the Amsoil, I have attached that procedure, it shows how the additive they use for results degrades with use, our products improve with use. The volatility is 5%, the TBN is 8. The price per ounce is $0.247 We classify our Motorcycle Oils as MB due to it's moly content though they are not too slippery for wet clutch operation.

I don't have the D-5182, D-4742, D-892 or D-1748 results but have no doubt it would pass.

In your Harley's primary I would recommend the V-Twin Primary Case Oil also packaged as MTL and the V-Twin Transmission oil also packaged as ShockProof Heavy.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

----------------------

Hi Dave

Thanks very much for the quick reply.  Just a final question on the Red Line.  I run the 20-60 MC Oil rather that the 20-50 even though the MC’s are 2006, 2009 and the reason I do is because I ride in such hot weather.  Living here in Reno and riding in summer temps of 95+ a lot of the time.  Not unusual to see temps of 105.  Should I stick with the 20-60?

Thanks

Bill

---------------------------------

Bill,

The 20W60HD would be a good option for your Harleys though not necessary. The 20W60HD is primarily used in engines running very high oil temperatures where additional viscosity is desired or where internal clearances are looser and the rider wishes to reduce the noise. The 20W50 and all the oils will certainly handle temperatures, the 20W60 would operate a little warmer but would provide additional viscosity, additional oil pressure and noise attenuation for those extremes.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

[Sklywag]

Red Line Attachment

I couldn't attach the AMSOL White Paper it was too large, I will get the link to the ASMOIL site where the paper is and add it here

Link to White Paper
http://www.amsoil.com/products/streetbikes/WhitePaper.aspx

[Sklywag]

Red Line Attachment

[HOGMIKE]

So I will add some interesting food for thought, I am drawing no conclusions, nor am I knocking any oils.  I have used Red Line for some 30 years now in both my day to day vehicles and in NASCAR Stock Cars Dirt 1/4 mile) & in off road sand drag racing.  I also run it exclusively in my MC's.  The Ultra that Trudy bought this year has been on AMSOIL all its life (12,000 miles)  I was debating about switching it to Red Line or leaving it on AMSOIL as a comparison.

I knew the original chemist at Red Line & had stayed in touch with him for years until he retired, I have another person I stay in touch with now for questions.

So I sent him the latest white paper published by AMSOIL but as expected he had seen it & asked him some questions.  I have included my questions & his responsed plus the documents he sent me as well as the AMSOIL white paper.  Next few posts for all the attachments.

Ahhh..The never ending quest for the "perfect" oil.
Depending who you talk to, "theirs" is the best.
Not knocking ANY oil, but, take a look at what racers, Yamaha, Honda, H-D, S&S,etc, etc, use. Not all the same, right?
My S&S was shipped with Mobil 1
My M-B uses Mobil 1
My hot rods get Pennsoil
Harley ships with Syn3
I use Amsoil in most my bikes.
Mostly my personal preference, but, all seem to do their job just fine. I really don't believe you can go wrong with any of the better brand oils. Most mechanical problems are not the fault of the oil, it's over-heating, bad builds, over-stressing the motor, and other issues.

We have some members here that use nothing but good ol' Dino oil in their bikes.......they are ok with that and they run just fine!
JMHO, of course!

[Hoist!]

HeHe!!! Still use 20-50 A/C V-Twin dino oil in all mine!!! RL MTL and SPH in Primary and Trans.

Hoist!

[HD Street Performance]

You play a balancing act between viscosity, heat dissipation and aeration.
Thinner oils or oils with a higher viscosity rating but the one with a poor viscosity additive package (as shown on the product data sheet as "VI") are prone to aeration. If running cams with fast lift rates, the 110 has high valve spring pressure, and then the lifters bleed in operation and don't allow full lift. Not realizing full lift on the exhaust side causes heat retention. More heat the thinner and hotter the oil gets. It's a self fulfilling profacy.
Run a good motorcycle oil, syn preferred, due to the synthetics ability to not break down as fast at high temperatures. If you run a syn oil be sure it is 100% syn that is the base stock is class IV or class V base stock. Use the appropriate viscosity for the weather as specified in the owners manual. If on hot days the oil appears to be aerated change brands, the better of them do not do this. Air does not compress and air in lifters is your enemy for noise and loss of lift reasons.

[FLTRI]

You play a balancing act between viscosity, heat dissipation and aeration.
Thinner oils or oils with a higher viscosity rating but the one with a poor viscosity additive package (as shown on the product data sheet as "VI") are prone to aeration. If running cams with fast lift rates, the 110 has high valve spring pressure, and then the lifters bleed in operation and don't allow full lift. Not realizing full lift on the exhaust side causes heat retention. More heat the thinner and hotter the oil gets. It's a self fulfilling profacy.
Run a good motorcycle oil, syn preferred, due to the synthetics ability to not break down as fast at high temperatures. If you run a syn oil be sure it is 100% syn that is the base stock is class IV or class V base stock. Use the appropriate viscosity for the weather as specified in the owners manual. If on hot days the oil appears to be aerated change brands, the better of them do not do this. Air does not compress and air in lifters is your enemy for noise and loss of lift reasons.

Don,
Good points and good reasons for using RedLine oil products!
Bob
PS - I use RedLine 50wt racing oil in my 117 to reduce hot running valvetrain noises during summer months. IMO, a significant reduction in engine noise when cyl head temps are over 270 deg f. and oil over 230 deg. f.

[tennisman]

Not downing Red Line, but here is a Fleet Manager opinion on oils:

Amsoil is a very good product as are most pure ester based oils.  The Germans knew what they were doing.  Oil analysis is the best method to determine how an oil is working.  That allowed me to save the NFTA a lot of money and minimize the “true cost to own” of an engine.  There is no magic, just science.  That is why I can get 400,000 city miles on a bus before overhaul using dinosaur oil and a proper filter and go 6000 miles between servicing.  I really like “Bob is the Oil Guy” web site because you can find other people whom have done the homework for you.  I was the first fleet manager  to see a problem with Cummins manufacturing a piston that was not holding up.  I saw a sudden increase in Chromium from rings and aluminum from the ring lands eroding.  We fixed the problem before a failure happened and had no collateral damage.  The air cooled engines benefit the most from ester base oils due to the extreme temperature ranges that they can encounter.  Red Line oils have a minimal add pack and do not receive as good of a review compared to others.  Red Line is a great single use oil for say the 24 hours of Daytona, but it does poorly when dealing with condensation from heating and cooling an engine.

[HD Street Performance]

I have spent much time studying oils professionally (I was formally a fleet manager and have extensive training in tribology) and in the context of the motorcycle business. The comments referenced in the last post are not cited nor are they correct. All of the positive points used to promote Amsoil are also in fact features of Redline. The additive package is robust for both of them. Please do not listen to me look at the oil data sheets. The TBN TAN VI and viscosity. Also look at the quantity of moly, Zn, Ph. Then place judgement.
I am very leary of any Amsoil discussions because of their tiered marketing tactics so when somebody starts promoting Amsoil and dissing another product I ask for peer reviewed science based references. Then they get quiet. This is not about Amsoil VS Redline because they are both good products, but more about misuse and the spreading of information that is not founded.
I would use Amsoil if it were not for their marketing model. I do use their 100:1 syn two cycle mix because I can get it at the auto parts store and it burns so clean with good protection, I would go elsewhere if I could find a competitive product. I perform all my google searches with the operator "-amsoil" Works like a charm and then I can read what I want not spam.

[grc]

True "Racing Oil" isn't meant for street use, and in fact folks like Redline make that very clear in their literature.  Just thought I'd throw that out here for those who think "Racing Oil" is advantageous in their street machine.  Do yourself (and your engine) a favor and stick to oils formulated for street use, with the proper additives to protect engines that don't get the oil changed and the engine torn down every weekend. 


Jerry

[HD Street Performance]

What you mention is straight across the industry not unique to Redline. They replace the detergant with more antiwear and antifoaming additives, usually. Redline makes a V-Twin oil and that would be the one to compare to similar offerings

[paul p]

Hello all, I can assure you that bearing rolling element skid is a reality. The rolling element may skid in an application in which the bearing is loaded too lightly. The engineering calculations performed prior to a bearing being specified should take this issue into account, and it should never be so marginal that your choice in lubricant could effect it one way or the other. The danger lies in replacing bearings with those with much greater capacity to handle forces that are not present. My .02 as far as lubricant is concerned, use the best quality lube available (judgement call without report from a triboligist on that particular container of oil since quality may vary batch to batch). Synthetics become worth the added expense in high heat or high moisture environments. (the twin cam engine is almost sure to qualify for at least one of these conditions the majority of the time) Use the heaviest grade of oil that is recommended for the temperature range that you are operating in.

[skreminegul07]

The discussion regarding bearing / race slipping occurred when the Teflon additives first came out for retail use if I recall. Slick50, etc.

[Zig]

I appreciate all the info on oils, including the white paper report sponsered by Amsoil.  If you can believe the report, Amsoil and Mobile One 50 wt are the top of the heap. 
My original question regarding bearing skate, apparently is something that no one reading and posting, so far, has had any experience with. My search continues...I hope it truly is just a myth.
Obviously, use of a particular oil is a matter of choice.  It only makes sense, that all should use the very best available, especially since the price difference is minimal.

[Talon]

I appreciate all the info on oils, including the white paper report sponsered by Amsoil.  If you can believe the report, Amsoil and Mobile One 50 wt are the top of the heap. 
My original question regarding bearing skate, apparently is something that no one reading and posting, so far, has had any experience with. My search continues...I hope it truly is just a myth.
Obviously, use of a particular oil is a matter of choice.  It only makes sense, that all should use the very best available, especially since the price difference is minimal.

I thought there have been several post saying that this was a myth? 

Craig

[grc]

I appreciate all the info on oils, including the white paper report sponsered by Amsoil.  If you can believe the report, Amsoil and Mobile One 50 wt are the top of the heap. 
My original question regarding bearing skate, apparently is something that no one reading and posting, so far, has had any experience with. My search continues...I hope it truly is just a myth.
Obviously, use of a particular oil is a matter of choice.  It only makes sense, that all should use the very best available, especially since the price difference is minimal.

The answer should be obvious.  Over the years there have been approximately 150 bazillion quadrillion engines built with roller and/or ball bearings in them, not to mention all the transmissions (manual and automatic) also equipped with such bearings.  If bearing skate was a significant issue, you would certainly think at least one brave soul would have spoken out by now.

The real answer was given a couple posts back by paul p;  poorly fit bearings, poor quality bearings, and bearings that don't match the requirements of the component in question can skid and become flat spotted.  It doesn't matter if you use dino oil, synthetic oil, whale oil, or Oil of Olay; if the bearing isn't the right match for the application it will be likely to fail. 

Jerry

[dejavo]

GRC
I was hopeing to use that oil of olay in my new scoot. Can I get a case from you?

[grc]

GRC
I was hopeing to use that oil of olay in my new scoot. Can I get a case from you?

Darn, I wish you had let me know sooner.  Momma had to get rid of the Oil of Olay; the stuff was so slippery her head kept slipping off the pillow at night.  I suggested she go back to dino oil.


Jerry

[johnsachs]

Put some metal chips in the oil...........that will stop the skateing.  The oil won't be so slippery then.
John

[Hoist!]

Darn, I wish you had let me know sooner.  Momma had to get rid of the Oil of Olay; the stuff was so slippery her head kept slipping off the pillow at night.  I suggested she go back to dino oil.


Jerry

 

Hoist!

[Talon]

Hoist!

Howie, Howie, Howie! Bet you still have oil lamps lighting your house! 

When you going to come over to the syn side? 

[BAKRDS]

GRC
I was hopeing to use that oil of olay in my new scoot. Can I get a case from you?

Tried oil of olay & it took all the wrinkles out of my wrinkle finished cases.

[Zig]

U guys are killin me...

[Sklywag]

Put some metal chips in the oil...........that will stop the skateing.  The oil won't be so slippery then.
John

I tried that & was not impressed with the results, the tow truck ride was boring.  Although, I am quite happy with my new motor at this point.