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[Heatwave]

I'll chime in here...... When this first became available Rev was trying to get me to try it but I was also apprehensive. In many further discussion's with them decided to give it a try. I discussed it with Ernie as we have been dissatisfied with the performance of the twin tec and we gave it a try. As Ernie stated the system performs well right out of the box. There are some very distinct differences between this and the other auto tunes on the market. What Rev has done is basically cracked the code in the factory Delphi ECM. This has allowed them to rewrite the algorithms that control the system and to incorporate real time input from the wide band 02 sensors. They have changed and added to the adaptive leaning tables to allow for wider range of adjustments and faster responses. The system is in closed loop almost full time. The times when it is in open loop is: during the first 30 seconds of startup as the 02 sensors need to heat up, Cold Start, Hard Acceleration, or rapid Deceleration.

They have done extensive testing with the system and have found that you can basically do changes up to about 20% and the system will adapt.

 I have another project that I am using the system on. More feedback to follow........

Here is a link of comparisons between this system and other on the market:

http://www.revperf.com/Precision/compare.html


EDIT: Forgot to add that the changes that they do to the ECM does not prevent the HD Digital tech from reading the trouble codes or perform other digital tech functions from working properly. Needing service on the road would not be a problem if the dealer need the digital tech. Also the DTT Twin Scan unit will still read and clear codes...

Very interesting comparison table. Even more interesting that this system includes an override of the Torque Management system of the newer bikes with electronic throttle control. It would be very interesting to see the difference between a bike running with all variables the same other than turning the TM Off vs On.

It's very curious why they couldn't offer a system that enables the user to make these variable changes instead of requiring that the ECU be sent in. Just don't like the idea of turning my ECU over to a business that isn't around the corner but maybe they are onto the foundation of a new tuning system that could be developed for users. If not, I suspect it will have very limited interest.

[Twolanerider]

Twolane, you've always been one of the first to tell folks that "autotune" isn't really automatic tuning, that it only chases an AFR set in the coding of the map and doesn't deal with timing, and is highly dependent on an accurate base map.  That is an opinion I fully share.  What is there about this system that makes you think it's any different?  I'm confused.


Jerry

Jerry, there a few things different.  Some minor and some less so.  At least as I understand what I've been told.

First off, as with the other devices, this doesn't change the timing curve on the fly.  What it does do, relative to engine timing, that T-Max does not is use the ion sensor.  So you gain additions to the full functionality of the stock ECM plus the protection from the ion sensor.  Not using that is something I've never understood about the T-Max.  An oversight on their part.

The importance of an accurate base map is as important as always.  There are differences there also.  What the boss at Rev Performance explained was not a constant draw from a fixed library of static base maps.  They want to know specifics of your hardware build.  They then (based on their experience) build a map that should be accurate to your environment. 

I've seen too many T-Max maps that just weren't close.  Made bikes little more than ping machines.  Some are good.  Some aren't.  It's at times a crap shoot.  Have run in to similar issues (though far less pronounced) with Power Commander maps also.  If Rev Performance really is using a thorough understanding and a wide experience to lay out a timing curve that actually matches a specific hardware configuration it would be an improvement over what is the crap shoot of the "library" of maps we're left with now.

That is, of course, an area of concern also.  We have to rely on the vendor doing a good job creating the map.  They're not a new shop by any means.  Calculations to build a curve to match known specifications wouldn't be hard math (automotive aftermarket does this commonly).  Coupled with an ECM that is made more adaptive than the stock piece we can hope the effort would be effective.  This is, however, the area where practical experience will be our only teacher. 

Limited data points so far have been positive.  Not enough applications to be a true cohort.  But so far so good from those I've seen.

[grc]

Very interesting comparison table. Even more interesting that this system includes an override of the Torque Management system of the newer bikes with electronic throttle control. It would be very interesting to see the difference between a bike running with all variables the same other than turning the TM Off vs On.

It's very curious why they couldn't offer a system that enables the user to make these variable changes instead of requiring that the ECU be sent in. Just don't like the idea of turning my ECU over to a business that isn't around the corner but maybe they are onto the foundation of a new tuning system that could be developed for users. If not, I suspect it will have very limited interest.

Once again I'm a little confused.  I was under the impression that the ETC response curve could be adjusted with the TTS, but the comparison chart makes it look like the TTS doesn't have that feature.  Some of the other comparisons don't look quite right either, but I'm not an expert on any of the systems listed so I can't legitimately call BS. 

Like Twolane said, I guess it will take some real world feedback from real users to tell if this is anything more than just one more approach to liberate dollars from the pockets of Harley owners.  Maybe I'm a little too cynical, but I've run across so many bogus or overhyped miracle products that I just can't help looking for the "catch".  And I still don't buy the idea that they can magically come up with a better base map for any and all of the combinations out there, any more than the Zipper's folks could or the Power Commander folks could.  And the real deal breaker for me would be the necessity to send my ECM to them if I needed changes made to various parameters, such as after changing cams or TB's or injectors or whatever.  I guess time will tell if it's a good thing or not.


Jerry

[Dennis the Menace]

HD-Dude, thanks for the post of the details on this.  I sent a email to Brian today to join this conversation, but he is at a trade show today and will take a look tomorrow.

I am an early adopter I guess, but this product works great and my bike ran better than it did with the previous Tmax or SEPST.

As for updates of the ECM, cant do them yourself, BUT, the ECM will adapt to many change you might make on the bike.  You can install it on a stock bike and run it, then add AC and pipes and not have to send it back in to RevPer for a modded map. If, however, you make any injecotr change, you will need to send it back in.

When you buy it, it coems with a prepaif shipping box.  It will go overnight to Revperf, and they ship it out the same day they get it, overnight to you. I snet mine in Monday evening, had it back by 9am Weds.  Not much wait.  And, they paid shipping both ways!

If you do need to send it back in for a new map, they pay shipping back.  But, I dont think there is a charge for the re-map...you only pay shipping.

RevPerf has 1,000's of maps for 100s of motor combinations they have developed over the years.  So, they arent starting from scratch.  Also, they are doing dyno testing by and independent company to compare their product to others.  Should be interesting.

Dennis

[Twolanerider]

As for updates of the ECM, cant do them yourself, BUT, the ECM will adapt to many change you might make on the bike.  You can install it on a stock bike and run it, then add AC and pipes and not have to send it back in to RevPer for a modded map. If, however, you make any injecotr change, you will need to send it back in.

Dennis, just to clarify a bit should it come up for someone later; the ECM wouldn't need to be remapped if an injector were simply changed for replacement.  That is a same part replacement.  Then you'd only dial in the air setting on the trim pot to calibrate the new sensor.  Change to any different injector, however, and I was told the remap is necessary.

Was also told to count on a remap if work is done that raises engine displacement by more than 20%.  Quite frankly I'd ask them touch it up if cams were significantly changed also; even if displacement stayed the same.  But for the more common pipe and intake changes it should all be good.

[Wheelsnkeels]

Other than the inconvenience of having to send your ECM in to be programmed it sounds like a very good option. (This is most likely to prevent piracy or reverse engineeering of their product)

Especially if it performs as advertised?

[Twolanerider]

I'll chime in here...... When this first became available Rev was trying to get me to try it but I was also apprehensive. In many further discussion's with them decided to give it a try.

Jim, you still just doing your homework on the system or have you set up dealer status for it also?  If so what will the price point be?

[Dennis the Menace]

Twolane, thanks for the catch.  I meant if the injectors were changed to a different flow rate...so, you are correct.  If its same flow rate injector no change needed to ECM.

Dennis

[hd-dude]

Jim, you still just doing your homework on the system or have you set up dealer status for it also?  If so what will the price point be?

Don;
I have Ernie's installed and am doing another later this week on a 106" build I am doing. So the jury is still out on the product for me but so far I am very encouraged with it. When I get a chance I will be taking Ernie's and or this other build I am doing to the dyno to see the real results.

 I have been a Rev Dealer for a few three years now.  I have used their barrels and pistons , head porting and crank services on many many builds. They have been a great vendor and customer service is top notch. For pricing I will start by saying that I won't compete with the 20% off internet whores to make just a few bucks but I will be offering at least the 10% discount on these kits.

[Heatwave]

Once again I'm a little confused.  I was under the impression that the ETC response curve could be adjusted with the TTS, but the comparison chart makes it look like the TTS doesn't have that feature.  Some of the other comparisons don't look quite right either, but I'm not an expert on any of the systems listed so I can't legitimately call BS.  

Like Twolane said, I guess it will take some real world feedback from real users to tell if this is anything more than just one more approach to liberate dollars from the pockets of Harley owners.  Maybe I'm a little too cynical, but I've run across so many bogus or overhyped miracle products that I just can't help looking for the "catch".  And I still don't buy the idea that they can magically come up with a better base map for any and all of the combinations out there, any more than the Zipper's folks could or the Power Commander folks could.  And the real deal breaker for me would be the necessity to send my ECM to them if I needed changes made to various parameters, such as after changing cams or TB's or injectors or whatever.  I guess time will tell if it's a good thing or not.


Jerry

You're confusing 2 different things. I believe almost all of the tuning software alternatives on the market offer adjustment to the progressivity of the electronic throttle control on the newer fly-by-wire throttle bikes that have been released since 2008.

What was new that I've not seen any other tuning software address (and highlighted in the comparison table link provided earlier) is this software's ability to address the ETC Torque Management controls that HD has installed in all of their ETC bikes. There are some that believe this TM algorithym in the HD ECUs is holding back the newer ETC bikes resulting in lower dyno #'s/performance. By managing the TM some believe HD is attempting to soften the torque on the drivetrain in order to reduce warranty claims.

With this software approach to tuning the ECU, it should be easy for someone to run a tuning map with the TM on vs a dyno run with the same map and the TM turned off. TM is a very different beast from simply adjusting the progressivity of ETC.

[Twolanerider]

Don;
I have Ernie's installed and am doing another later this week on a 106" build I am doing. So the jury is still out on the product for me but so far I am very encouraged with it. When I get a chance I will be taking Ernie's and or this other build I am doing to the dyno to see the real results.

Thanks for sharing the impressions Jim.  Understand that while you're still reviewing it can be a delicate balance between collecting info to base your judgment on and sharing those impressions publicly.

You mentioned the company had been good to deal with.  That was part of my gaining an early good impression of the company also.  Had called to ask a hand full of questions on the product.  A conversation that should have been a few minutes was easily stretched to a half hour.  The rep on the phone offered more and more; much more than I asked.  All willingly and easily.

That was good.  What was a surprise and exceptional was what came next.  I was just a potential customer who hadn't even given a last name.  About ten minutes after the call ended my phone rang.  It was Brian calling me back.  Offering a thanks for the call and the interest in the product and offering far more detail and insight than the sales rep was able or allowed. 

It all ended with an invitation to call back in with any more questions.  Have spoken with them a couple more times since as questions came to mind.  The rep has always been very forthcoming.  Good or bad they answer the question.  It's a type of conversation that rarely comes from the vendor channel anymore.  Especially to some joe-blow off the street.

Was all good enough to peak interest in the package more.  Having learned more it's hard not to be interested.  Have a couple of friends here locally wanting to do "something" over the winter.  Pretty sure they'll go this way now.  I plan to on the Road King project.  Will see if I can steer the guys your way come purchase time.

[cvobiker]

Now if you are in good standings with a tech at the dealership have him/her set it up with your scoot

Yup 

[cvobiker]

Jenni is having trouble finding a Drag part number based on description.... Anyone out there happen to have the Drag # ?  I shoot an email off to vender and will post same if I hear back..

[erniezap]

You mentioned the company had been good to deal with.  That was part of my gaining an early good impression of the company also.  Had called to ask a hand full of questions on the product.  A conversation that should have been a few minutes was easily stretched to a half hour.  The rep on the phone offered more and more; much more than I asked.  All willingly and easily.

Don,

When I had a problem which required disassembly(head gasket leak)m they said to package up the heads, cylinders, gaskets, and pistons and they paid for the shipping.  They wanted to look to see what caused the problem.  When I got it back, they had cleaned everything and freshened up the heads including seals, springs, etc!  They said that it was a "good will" gesture.  Now that is customer service!

[Twolanerider]

Don,

When I had a problem which required disassembly(head gasket leak)m they said to package up the heads, cylinders, gaskets, and pistons and they paid for the shipping.  They wanted to look to see what caused the problem.  When I got it back, they had cleaned everything and freshened up the heads including seals, springs, etc!  They said that it was a "good will" gesture.  Now that is customer service!

That is unexpected Ernie.  In a good way of course.  But a lot more than one would have expected or even hoped for anymore. 

It's not as if we don't spend a fair amount of coin with these companies.  It's not just refreshing it's also reassuring to hear of cases where the companies actually give a damn in return.