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[bobne]

When I bought my 2010 CVO Softail Convertible my neighbor's 2009 96 cu" Fat Bob could out run me.  I took it to a local dyno shop and got a lot more performance out of it, but I'm still not that impressed. My salesman at the Harley dealer told me I needed to put cams in it to get more low-end torque. However, the head mechanic at the other Harley dealer in town said putting cams in the 110 engine is not really that good of an idea because of the head and piston "flat" design.
Myself - I would have thought paying that much for a big bad Screamin' Eagle 110 would have given me much more performance that what I have.
Thoughts on cams for a 110 engine? Good or bad idea. If a good idea, what brand and kind of cams. And if so, just cams or more?
thanks, Bob from Nebraska

[bobne]

Added note. The dyno gave me 92.2 max pwr at about 3600 rpm, with max torque of 108.10 at about 5300 rpm.

[hd-dude]

First would ask what else has been done to the 96"er. What pipes are on both bikes?
Your dyno numbers are about right for a stock bike.
As far as low end torque you are not going to beat the stock SE255 cam that is in the bike now. For more pull longer into the RPM range many here have changed cams on the 110 bike to the Fueling 574, andrews 54, and others.

[bobne]

The Fat Bob has a Screamin' Eagle Air Cleaner and Vance and Hines mufflers.
The CVO has Vance and Hines long straight shots. It was dynoed with those exhausts.

[North Georgia Hawg]

Added note. The dyno gave me 92.2 max pwr at about 3600 rpm, with max torque of 108.10 at about 5300 rpm.

I think you read the numbers on the wrong scale... you must mean 108 max TQ at 3600, and 92 max HP at 5300. Numbers don't work the way you typed them....

[Boxman88]

Have High Compression Pistons and Cams in my 110. It pushes 121 TQ and 113 HP. Also change the exhaust to VH X pipe with High Output Slip on's. She woke up a little.

[bobne]

Boxman88

By X pipes do u mean the v&h pro pipe?
What kind of cams do u have?

[Boxman88]

Boxman88

By X pipes do u mean the v&h pro pipe?
What kind of cams do u have?

bobne, I have the VH Power Duels with the High Out Put slip on's Has a great sound. The cams are SE 259. HDFR did a custom tune and she runs nice. Had a Street Glide I had the motor built in it and the 110 didn't put out what that bike did so I wanted them to bump it up before I picked her up in December. The stock 110's are tuned down to meet the EPA standards. That's why that 96 out runs you.

[twinotter]

 IMO, this is HD's last feeble attempts at providing a motorcyle with an engine basically designed in what 1911, to meet the new strict emissions of today.
Air cooled engine will never run with power with AFR of 14,7/1 or leaner, but they attempted it anyways. Adding extra tall gearing, cams that raise compression early to "fake some power", then fall flat, cats, are all attempts to get these dinosaurs past emissions testing.
They can be made to work, new cams, no cat, lower gearing, decent exhausts and retuning to meet the actual "needs" of an air cooled motor wake these up. Unfortunately, I believe the costs of trying to meet emissions has twisted HD's arm to look for alternative ways to save $$, the results show in twisted cranks, compensators that are junk, overseas parts that fail (regulators, lifters etc etc).
It can all be corrected, BY YOU, or you could buy a Victory, and be happy.
JMO FWIW  twinotter

[glens]

IMO, this is HD's last feeble attempts at providing a motorcyle with an engine basically designed in what 1911, to meet the new strict emissions of today.

The attempt ain't so feeble as you're trying to say it is.

Air cooled engine will never run with power with AFR of 14,7/1 or leaner, but they attempted it anyways. Adding extra tall gearing, cams that raise compression early to "fake some power", then fall flat, cats, are all attempts to get these dinosaurs past emissions testing.

There's ample power at lambda=1 and when excess is desired the mixture goes richer.  Do you think the bikes are running in closed-loop at full throttle?  They aren't.  The gearing is perfect on the touring bikes since '09, the low-RPM cams don't "fake" anything but instead make the power exactly where most folks use the engine all day long instead of sacrificing that excellent utility for some extra power where the engine spends 1/10 of 1% of its time.  Cats are a way of life for new internal combustion engines used on the road anymore.  These are most excellent dinosaurs and although not in every respect, to be sure, H-D is to be commended for keeping this engine type alive and well.

They can be made to work, new cams, no cat, lower gearing, decent exhausts and retuning to meet the actual "needs" of an air cooled motor wake these up.

Lower gearing is completely unnecessary in most cases and the rest of that is entirely optional except from the factory, where they (and all vehicle manufacturers) have to operate with in the boundaries of some pretty heavy constraints.

Unfortunately, I believe the costs of trying to meet emissions has twisted HD's arm to look for alternative ways to save $$, the results show in twisted cranks, compensators that are junk, overseas parts that fail (regulators, lifters etc etc).
It can all be corrected, BY YOU, or you could buy a Victory, and be happy.

It's not just the cost of meeting emissions.  The cost of doing business in general drives such decisions.

Unless someone does all the same stuff to their Victory as they have to do to their Harley, they're going to have an emissions-compliant machine running hot and at or near lambda=1 most of the time, too, and they'll still have an engine that makes me go limp just from seeing it.  So what's your point?

[twinotter]

Hi glens: Don't get me wrong, I love my 01 Dyna HARLEY DAVIDSON and will never part with it. I will not be buying a Victory!!
The point is Victory does meet emissions the same as HD has to, they do it without overheating, no limp modes, they make more hp and get the same or better mileage. They designed their air cooled engine with enough oil capacity and cooling (heads) to control engine temps while running the leaner AFR needed to meet emissions.
Harley could have and should done this years ago, but instead have plodded along spending countless million$$, knowing they couldn't meet emissions and still have a viable motorcycle. They could have redesigned this Twin Cam with water cooling or oil cooling years ago, HD fans would now be raving at the smart move instead of limping thru traffic and baking their ankles.
My personal ride, an 01 Dyna made 92hp at 95"/98t got 54 mpg, never ran over 220 degrees. The current motor, a S&S T124 get 48 mpg at 70 mph, makes 126hp/133t ,makes 100 ft lbs at 2550rpm/ 133 by 4000 and has never run over 210 degrees. It can go 150 mph if I want to with 2:88/1 gearing. A 110" motor at 85hp is kinda pathetic as it struggles to even make that without melting its valves and chain tensioners!
The current crop of HD's are almost unrideable IMO, unless you spend 1000's $$ to correct the issues HD pass off as their excuses. They won't dominate the market much longer, IMO at the rate they are proceeding.  JMO FWIW twinoter

[Midnight Rider]

Boxman88

By X pipes do u mean the v&h pro pipe?
What kind of cams do u have?

Comparing apples and tomatoes here...you have a Convertible which has the "B" engine, and he has an "A" engine with a completly different exhaust configuration.  The two really can't be compared heads up.  

[glens]

I will not be buying a Victory!!
The point is Victory does meet emissions the same as HD has to, they do it without overheating, no limp modes, they make more hp and get the same or better mileage. They designed their air cooled engine with enough oil capacity and cooling (heads) to control engine temps while running the leaner AFR needed to meet emissions.
Harley could have and should done this years ago, but instead have plodded along spending countless million$$, knowing they couldn't meet emissions and still have a viable motorcycle. They could have redesigned this Twin Cam with water cooling or oil cooling years ago, HD fans would now be raving at the smart move instead of limping thru traffic and baking their ankles.

Did a google search for "Victory heat" or something like that and their forums talk about it as much as ours do.  They're pulling their O2 sensor leads, looking for under-seat heat shields, removing/modifying lowers/vents, even talking about wearing leather chaps to keep their legs cool!  I'll concede that Victory makes more power than Harley on bone stock "standard" bikes, but it ain't a night and day difference and the characteristics are different as well, tending to favor the higher RPM range.  No thanks for/from me.

I'm not a fan of overly large oil coolers and/or radiators on bikes, so I doubt I'd be even riding a Harley if they'd done that before I'd gotten back into riding after a couple decades back in '07.

That's about all I've got to say on the subject.  Have a good week.

[SDCVO]

I certainly don't want to be argumentative but I have to say I don't agree with your negativity towards the 110 motors or the brand. I have been riding motorcycles most of my adult life and many different brands. Before I bought the 12 SERGC a few months ago I looked at just about everything available at any price. At the end of the day, thats what I settled on and have never regretted it. I took delivery about 6 weeks ago and just crossed over 3000 miles today. With just a set of pipes and a good tune, I am getting over 120 torque out of the motor and though certainly there are many bikes out there that cost a hell of a lot less and have a hell of a lot more power, in my humble opinion, they do not compare...
Could the moco do a better job? Of course they can but at the end of the day they are still the business model that is studied at every business college in the world and still performing for their stock holders better then most.
If you go to any forum for any other brand out there you will see people complaining about one thing or another that is inherent for that brand, I guess it is the nature of the beast...
 You have an amazing motorcycle, congratulations on being successful in life enough to be able to afford a highline model like a CVO Harley!!!
Again, not to argue...

[twinotter]

 I  found it kind of odd that of the 20 or so Victory owners I've talked to, not one has mentioned any problems. 3 Had over 50000 miles, money spent on repairs, 0!! They have all heard about the issues with the new Harley's, tho. I'm sure Victory has had some issues, just like FOrd and AUdi, but they seem to aggressively fix them, not make it worse!!
Some of these Victory owners said they bought a Victory because of the HD problems they'd heard about.

San Diego CVO. How much did you spend to make your "fantastic" bike liveable? New exhaust, no cat, TTS or similar, and retune. Should you have to "fix" a $35000 bike the day you get it, not this boyo!! 3000miles, tell me how you feel at 25000, make sure you add the repair bills to the list.
I wish you all the best of luck, Harley sales success was built on the Evo motor, flourished on the early TC's. It could all disappear if they don't find the answers required to make them driveable and reliable again. JM2C FWIW