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CVO Technical => Intake/Exhaust/ECM => Topic started by: SSTuner on August 27, 2013, 08:27:49 AM

Title: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: SSTuner on August 27, 2013, 08:27:49 AM
In 2012 I traded in my 2003 V-Rod that was tuned TTS Mastertune (black) by Skips Speed & Customs Cycles in Winchester, VA.  I retained the TTS Mastertune module and box per the dealership as it could be a liability to the new owner of the bike.

I can send this unit back to TTS and for a fee of $200 (TTS p/n 2000007) I can upgrade from single to dual license, in which I would use on my 2012 Street Glide.

I would like to get an understanding of what would be the difference/benefits between TTS I and TTS II?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: mayor on August 27, 2013, 08:40:12 AM
The HD06 (blue) has on board data run storage capabilities (not yet released to the public if I mind correctly) and seems to collect data faster even on a J1850 data port connection (which your '12 touring has).  It also stores the factory flash cal for you on the VCI (dongle).  Steve can answer this more regarding future releases of software, but the blue VCI does have some on board computing technologies as well that may become more appealing with future software releases.  Both the HD06 and HD04 (black) perform the same when it comes to being able to tune your ecm.  I have a bike with each, and I haven't yet found myself wanting to replace the black vci for a blue on the bike that has the black locked to it.  The real benefit between the two is likely only if you are a DIY tweaker, because most of the benefits appear to favor the street tuner at this point over the dyno tuner.  If you are paying to have your bike tuned, the added benefits of the blue over the black is likely less valuable than the money you would save by converting your black CVI to a dual bike unit IMO.  The blue may have quite an advancement in technologies, but the black is still a very nice tuning tool since the real power is in the Mastertune software. 
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: whittlebeast on August 27, 2013, 10:18:04 AM
Be sure to take a look at the stuff by Power Vision.

http://www.dynojet.com/powervision/

Andy
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: mayor on August 27, 2013, 10:41:08 AM
I'm all for giving options, but how does that answer the OP's question?  I thought his questioning was quite to the piont.  Is there information on Dynojet's website that discusses the difference between the HD04 and HD06 Mastertune VCI's?   
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 27, 2013, 10:47:49 AM
Be sure to take a look at the stuff by Power Vision.

http://www.dynojet.com/powervision/

Andy

And just how is that in any way relevant to the OP's question?

Ken

I'm all for giving options, but how does that answer the OP's question?  I thought his questioning was quite to the piont.  Is there information on Dynojet's website that discusses the difference between the HD04 and HD06 Mastertune VCI's?   

+1

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 27, 2013, 11:43:25 AM
In 2012 I traded in my 2003 V-Rod that was tuned TTS Mastertune (black) by Skips Speed & Customs Cycles in Winchester, VA.  I retained the TTS Mastertune module and box per the dealership as it could be a liability to the new owner of the bike.

I can send this unit back to TTS and for a fee of $200 (TTS p/n 2000007) I can upgrade from single to dual license, in which I would use on my 2012 Street Glide.

I would like to get an understanding of what would be the difference/benefits between TTS I and TTS II?

Thanks in advance.

I don't understand what "liability" there would have been to the guy who bought your V-Rod in giving him the black TTS VCI. It's useless to anyone else, because it's locked to that bike.

Yes, you could upgrade it for $200 to a dual unit... but here's why it's a LOT better to spend $450 to get the newer blue TTS 2 VCI.

Everything Mayor said is true, but there's a LOT more...

The blue VCI is the TTS MasterTune VCI going forward. It's a complete computer, with two processors inside... an I/O processor to talk to a laptop, and a real CPU to interface to the ECM that enables it to be used completely standalone without a laptop attached to gather data. This mode is called the Flight Recorder. The TTS 3 software to support it hasn't been released yet.... but it will be very soon.

The BLUE VCI will be required in order to use Flight Recorder mode. The older black VCI will never be able to be used in Flight Recorder mode, as it doesn't have the required processor inside. If you have the black VCI, you will have to continue to use a laptop to collect data (at a much slower rate), and the black VCI will NOT record all of the extended data for timing, etc. that the blue VCI running in Flight Recorder mode will. PERIOD.

The VERY nice thing about Flight Recorder mode is that it can gather lots more data much faster, even on a J1850 bike, since it doesn't need to feed those data frames to an attached laptop... it simply stores them in its internal memory. On a CANBUS bike it's REALLY fast... like over 20 full data frames per second. And, it works across ignition on/off cycles... so you don't need to gather data in a run all at once. It writes a separate file in the VCI each time you turn the ignition on, and you can pull these multiple files into VTune later, in one operation. You can ride for a long time and capture TONS of data without having to mess with anything. Pretty slick! BLUE VCI ONLY, THOUGH.

ALSO, the blue VCI does some other things that the black VCI can't do. The blue VCI automatically backs up the stock calibration right in the VCI, and stores it there forever as a .MTE file. You can retrieve it from the VCI and save it on your computer for backup purposes. You cannot open it in the TTS software though, because .MTE files are not editable. But if you ever need to restore it, then you will ALWAYS have it.

The blue VCI also stores the last calibration that was flashed into the ECM right in the VCI as a .MT8 file (or .MT7 file if that's what was flashed). You can retrieve this calibration and store it on your computer, AND you can open it in the TTS software to view and manipulate it. If you have had a custom tune done, the last calibration that was flashed into your ECM is your custom calibration that you paid for. So, you will always have your custom calibration, even if your tuner refuses to give it to you... it's right there in your blue VCI. The older black VCI can't do this.

So, to summarize, here's why you want the new TTS 2 blue VCI:

1. Is the TTS VCI going forward, to support all new TTS functionality.

2. Supports the new Flight Recorder mode, without requiring a laptop to be attached. Flight Recorder captures much more data much more quickly than having a laptop attached. Flight Recorder operates across ignition on/off cycles, enabling easy "all day" data recording under real-world riding conditions.

3. Captures extended data for timing tuning. The upcoming TTS 3 software will have the new Timing Assist functionality to use the captured timing data for setting timing properly.

4. Stores the OEM stock calibration in the VCI automatically.

5. Stores the last flashed calibration (your custom tune) in the VCI automatically.

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: remington007 on August 27, 2013, 12:59:04 PM
You have to remember the NEW owner of your old bike will have a bike with a locked ECM to the black box you still have. (After version 1.57) You could not add another tune device to that bike unless the original MTE was reflashed to the bike.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 27, 2013, 01:10:45 PM
You have to remember the NEW owner of your old bike will have a bike with a locked ECM to the black box you still have. (After version 1.57) You could not add another tune device to that bike unless the original MTE was reflashed to the bike.

Depends on what version of the TTS software was used to flash in the cal. The older TTS versions did not lock the ECM.

But you're correct in that if a newer TTS software version was used to tune that bike, the ECM may very well be locked, and since the owner does not have the TTS, they would have to buy one in order to change the cal. If the ECM IS locked, even a dealer can't unlock it unless they use a TTS to restore a stock cal.

In any case, the TTS unit should have gone to the new owner upon the sale of the bike. When I sold my 2010 Tequila Sunrise SESG earlier this year, I included the TTS in the sale. It was locked to that bike anyway, and would be needed by the buyer in order to do anything with the tune.

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Mr. Wizard on August 27, 2013, 08:19:30 PM
On a CANBUS bike it's REALLY fast... like over 20 full data frames per second.

40 frames or just under on a CAN bike, but who's counting.  :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: hrdtail78 on August 27, 2013, 08:42:23 PM
40 frames or just under on a CAN bike, but who's counting.  :2vrolijk_21:

 :2vrolijk_21:

Too bad you can't find the guy who bought the bike.  Sell the HD04 and buy the HD06.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 27, 2013, 09:14:18 PM
:2vrolijk_21:

Too bad you can't find the guy who bought the bike.  Sell the HD04 and buy the HD06.

It's worthless to anyone else because it's LOCKED to that V-Rod...

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 27, 2013, 09:16:55 PM
40 frames or just under on a CAN bike, but who's counting.  :2vrolijk_21:

I like to understate numbers, Wiz!

"The great thing about being a pessimist is that you're either proven correct, or you're pleasantly surprised."

     -- George F. Will
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Mr. Wizard on August 27, 2013, 09:45:33 PM
I like to understate numbers, Wiz!

"The great thing about being a pessimist is that you're either proven correct, or you're pleasantly surprised."

     -- George F. Will



Just as a comparison...

40 frames Can FR to 5 frames J1850 via computer interface.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: hrdtail78 on August 27, 2013, 10:35:54 PM
It's worthless to anyone else because it's LOCKED to that V-Rod...

Ken

I have a pretty good grasp on that concept.  That's why if he found the guy it would work. 

I have a HD04 locked to my bike and I bought the HD06.  I'm glad I did.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: SSTuner on August 28, 2013, 07:48:51 AM
Mayor and Ken (North Georgia Hawg) "Thank You" very much in the explanation of TTS I (black) and TTS II (blue) differences.  The purchase of TTS II is in my near future. 

About the old TTS, I will try to locate the owner and give it to him.  Again, not sure why the salesperson told me to keep it only that he said it would be a liability to them.  Maybe the dealership was looking at if the new owner needed anything done to the V-Rod this would be an incentive ($$$) in charging for a replacement CPU benefiting the dealership.

Again thanks for all the responses as this info will benefit others also.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 28, 2013, 08:20:53 AM
Mayor and Ken (North Georgia Hawg) "Thank You" very much in the explanation of TTS I (black) and TTS II (blue) differences.  The purchase of TTS II is in my near future. 

About the old TTS, I will try to locate the owner and give it to him.  Again, not sure why the salesperson told me to keep it only that he said it would be a liability to them.  Maybe the dealership was looking at if the new owner needed anything done to the V-Rod this would be an incentive ($$$) in charging for a replacement CPU benefiting the dealership.

Again thanks for all the responses as this info will benefit others also.

You're welcome. I just like to try to get the facts out there.

There seem to be lots of misconceptions and distortions regarding various aspects of the TTS MasterTune... in my opinion perpetrated in large measure by those who stand to benefit financially from people using other tuning solutions.

I don't make a penny off of selling anything related to motorcycles... I am not in the business. My opinions about various products are based on my own experience and research, conversations with knowledgeable people, etc. I always strive to learn the TRUTH - whatever that turns out to be - and help disseminate it.

And it's easy to tell when a salesperson is lying... their lips are moving!

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: mayor on August 28, 2013, 09:13:07 AM
You're welcome SStuner.  The cable to hook the HD06 VCI to your computer is different than the HD04, so keep that in mind when you are getting ready to buy of you are planning on doing some or all of the tuning yourself.  The new VCI uses a USB connection without needing the serial port adapter.  TTS sells the cable system as a package, but you can also just pick up the USB adapter cable if you already have the J1850 to serial cable for connecting the VCI to your bike.  The cable needed for attaching to a computer is a cable like what you would use to connect a printer to a computer.  I've seen these cable at Wally World in the computer section. 

If you have never tuned a lambda cal before (which is what your '12 touring is), I think you will find it much easier than TPS based tuning. 

There seem to be lots of misconceptions and distortions regarding various aspects of the TTS MasterTune... in my opinion perpetrated in large measure by those who stand to benefit financially from people using other tuning solutions.
  I don't think it's always that, sometimes people just like what they are used too and think everyone else should like it as well.  I also think that there's also going to be cases were some personal issues prevent folks from recommending some products due to past bad experiences (whether with product or people associated with the product).  When it comes to tuning systems on the market today, there are lots of very good choices, so I think we should expect various opinions as a norm.   
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Mr. Wizard on August 28, 2013, 09:39:08 AM
The cable needed for attaching to a computer is a cable like what you would use to connect a printer to a computer.  I've seen these cable at Wally World in the computer section. 

 

If I may toss a caution here. There are good cables and inferior ones as well. A cheap cable will, with a doubt, interfere with the data recording process via slow bits or connector disconnect.

If you need to purchase the "printer" style USB cable it must be of good to great quality. <-- Speaking with experience here.



Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 28, 2013, 09:40:02 AM
You're welcome SStuner.  The cable to hook the HD06 VCI to your computer is different than the HD04, so keep that in mind when you are getting ready to buy of you are planning on doing some or all of the tuning yourself.  The new VCI uses a USB connection without needing the serial port adapter.  TTS sells the cable system as a package, but you can also just pick up the USB adapter cable if you already have the J1850 to serial cable for connecting the VCI to your bike.  The cable needed for attaching to a computer is a cable like what you would use to connect a printer to a computer.  I've seen these cable at Wally World in the computer section.  

If you have never tuned a lambda cal before (which is what your '12 touring is), I think you will find it much easier than TPS based tuning.  
  I don't think it's always that, sometimes people just like what they are used too and think everyone else should like it as well.  I also think that there's also going to be cases were some personal issues prevent folks from recommending some products due to past bad experiences (whether with product or people associated with the product).  When it comes to tuning systems on the market today, there are lots of very good choices, so I think we should expect various opinions as a norm.  

I highly recommend using the TTS USB cable! I have found that "printer quality" cables often will not work properly with the TTS in data capture runs. I have seen data capture simply stop on the monitor right in the middle of a DataMaster run when using a non-TTS USB cable. With the Flight Recorder you would never know its not recording until you got back home and had little or no data to import into VTune. The Flight Recorder also grabs data a lot faster than before, so the cables are even more important now.

 It's well worth the few extra dollars to get the TTS cable set and not have to be concerned with not capturing data reliably.

Opinions, yes... but I think that the TTS gets unfairly bashed, especially on the other forum... I think the TTS is the best flash tuning product out there, and that's why I use it personally on my bike. But I don't bash the PowerVision, SESPT, or others. I just think the TTS is way better... and very soon its lead will widen even more.

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 28, 2013, 09:41:39 AM
If I may toss a caution here. There are good cables and inferior ones as well. A cheap cable will, with a doubt, interfere with the data recording process via slow bits or connector disconnect.

If you need to purchase the "printer" style USB cable it must be of good to great quality. <-- Speaking with experience here.

You squeezed in there on me, Wiz! Sneaky :devil: ...

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Mr. Wizard on August 28, 2013, 09:53:16 AM
Ken....

The "printer" style USB cable doesn't come into play when using FR.

Only when you use a computer to record will it be an issue with a poor quality cable.


Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 28, 2013, 10:12:23 AM
Ken....

The "printer" style USB cable doesn't come into play when using FR.

Only when you use a computer to record will it be an issue with a poor quality cable.


LOL! True... I was thinking about the cable to attach the TTS to the ECM connector... but that one has to be the TTS cable anyway. D'Oh!

Getting more coffee now... brain is apparently not hitting on all cylinders yet this morning...

Ken

Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: porthole on August 28, 2013, 10:28:56 AM
Do either use USB cables direct or adapters to serial cables?
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: mayor on August 28, 2013, 10:48:17 AM
Do either use USB cables direct or adapters to serial cables?
the HD06 (blue) uses a USB on one side, but it is not the standard usb connection.  The HD04 requires a serial adapter.  Both use the serial to j1850 adapter on the bike side of the dongle. 
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Steve Cole on August 28, 2013, 11:42:21 AM
The HD-04 (black) was designed way back in 1998 and is a serial input connection. The newer HD-06 (blue) is a true USB device that uses a USB "B" connection. We feel this is the best USB connector for staying connected as do all the printer company's. What you have on the PC side of things is a USB "A" connection and they come loose way to often but they are much lower profile and that's what the PC guys wanted/ needed to fit there package size. Now-days we have the mini USB connections on a lot of devices and they really suck.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: mayor on August 28, 2013, 01:19:01 PM
Opinions, yes... but I think that the TTS gets unfairly bashed, especially over there in the Forum-Of-Darkness.
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I wouldn’t disagree that there are those that bash the system on that forum (and some is absolutely personally motivated), but I also feel that some of the concerns are justified and only viewed by supporters as being bashing out of misunderstanding the concerns.  I am a proud member of that forum and an admin there.  Yes there are those that will use any area of weakness to try to pour salt in old wounds, but that doesn't mean that all the issues people have with the Mastertune system is just bashing.  That also doesn't mean that the bashing that occurs is just one sided.  There have been plenty of cases where defenders of the product have been the aggressor.  The issue with locking an ECM is a real concern IMO.  Sure some might blow that out of proportion in order to bring concerns about a product for spite, but there have been plenty of documented cases where folks were bitten by this issue that was unaware.  Take the OP’s sold Vrod, if that ecm was locked by the TTS system…then that owner is likely going to find out well after buying that bike.  I don't think the concern that the vtune process limits the available accurate population of the VE tables to something other than full operation mode is a bash.  Having witnessed how lean the heavy throttle can be on some calibrations and still be agreeable to the vtune software, I don't think that's a trumped up bash at all.  I also don't think that the current need to carry a computer for tuning is a trumped up attempt to bash.  Some folks don't even own a laptop, so the fact that you currently need one shouldn't be viewed as an attack when someone brings that up.  I had to replace the hard drive in one of my computers due to an error that occurred from damage from riding around with it strapped to my bike while vtuning.  I would guess that Steve heard the concerns from his customers, which is why the new VCI has on-board recording.  I also think that vtuning blind without a monitor to guide the tuner isn't a trumped up bash either.  The advantage with closed course tuning using some sort of device to see what cells you have hit is a real advantage. I think Steve is combating that concern with a large on-board data storage ability, but there are still going to be some that prefer to have a screen to see exactly what is going on when they are trying to tune the ve cells.  Unless I misunderstood him on a recent post, he has already at least considered the potential for a screen to go with the system in the future

Now with the above statements, one could easily view my opinions as biased against TTS Mastertune system.  Although Steve Cole may not always agree, I've actually been an open supporter of the system since I started using in several years ago.  I think it is a very nice system, and I currently use it on both of my efi bikes.  That won't stop me from giving an unbiased opinion of areas of concern, even if that opinion is unfavorable and in conflict with the opinions of some other people's opinions.  The trouble is some folks are just too biased in their beliefs to see that you can be respectfully  critical of a product, and yet still supportive.  I personally think that the only way to improve a product is to air out the potential negatives.  If you look at some of the changes that Steve has made to his products, I think these aired out issues have been heard by him as well.  He may not have appreciated the way they are/were aired, but I think the products continuous improvement is proof enough that he ultimately understood the concerns.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 28, 2013, 02:04:14 PM
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I wouldn’t disagree that there are those that bash the system on that forum (and some is absolutely personally motivated), but I also feel that some of the concerns are justified and only viewed by supporters as being bashing out of misunderstanding the concerns.  I am a proud member of that forum and an admin there.  Yes there are those that will use any area of weakness to try to pour salt in old wounds, but that doesn't mean that all the issues people have with the Mastertune system is just bashing.  That also doesn't mean that the bashing that occurs is just one sided.  There have been plenty of cases where defenders of the product have been the aggressor.  The issue with locking an ECM is a real concern IMO.  Sure some might blow that out of proportion in order to bring concerns about a product for spite, but there have been plenty of documented cases where folks were bitten by this issue that was unaware.  Take the OP’s sold Vrod, if that ecm was locked by the TTS system…then that owner is likely going to find out well after buying that bike.  I don't think the concern that the vtune process limits the available accurate population of the VE tables to something other than full operation mode is a bash.  Having witnessed how lean the heavy throttle can be on some calibrations and still be agreeable to the vtune software, I don't think that's a trumped up bash at all.  I also don't think that the current need to carry a computer for tuning is a trumped up attempt to bash.  Some folks don't even own a laptop, so the fact that you currently need one shouldn't be viewed as an attack when someone brings that up.  I had to replace the hard drive in one of my computers due to an error that occurred from damage from riding around with it strapped to my bike while vtuning.  I would guess that Steve heard the concerns from his customers, which is why the new VCI has on-board recording.  I also think that vtuning blind without a monitor to guide the tuner isn't a trumped up bash either.  The advantage with closed course tuning using some sort of device to see what cells you have hit is a real advantage. I think Steve is combating that concern with a large on-board data storage ability, but there are still going to be some that prefer to have a screen to see exactly what is going on when they are trying to tune the ve cells.  Unless I misunderstood him on a recent post, he has already at least considered the potential for a screen to go with the system in the future

Now with the above statements, one could easily view my opinions as biased against TTS Mastertune system.  Although Steve Cole may not always agree, I've actually been an open supporter of the system since I started using in several years ago.  I think it is a very nice system, and I currently use it on both of my efi bikes.  That won't stop me from giving an unbiased opinion of areas of concern, even if that opinion is unfavorable and in conflict with the opinions of some other people's opinions.  The trouble is some folks are just too biased in their beliefs to see that you can be respectfully  critical of a product, and yet still supportive.  I personally think that the only way to improve a product is to air out the potential negatives.  If you look at some of the changes that Steve has made to his products, I think these aired out issues have been heard by him as well.  He may not have appreciated the way they are/were aired, but I think the products continuous improvement is proof enough that he ultimately understood the concerns.


Mayor - I can agree with much of that. No product is perfect, including the TTS. Constructive feedback to vendors is valuable... even if it comes in strongly worded ways.

BUT, the reason I hang out on the CVOHarley forum these days is that it's just much more CIVIL here than on the other forum(s). You don't see the bashing here that you see elsewhere, and threads don't devolve into chit-throwing tussles. Neal and the mods here just won't put up with crap like that... and I like that a lot. HDF is much worse in some ways than HTT is... but that's neither here nor there.

I understand that some people have a concern about the ECM "locking". But it's there for a very good reason - to prevent some Yay-Hoo in a service dept from reflashing the ECM because the Digital Technician says it doesn't understand something it's seeing - thereby zapping the owners tune. I think that's the right approach, frankly... to protect the calibration. But that has caused problems in at least one case I read about, in which the dealer replaced the ECM because of the DT "error", thereby rendering the TTS useless. It's probably happened more that just that one time.

A TTS should always go with the bike when it's sold. It can't be used on any other bike to flash in a cal anyway. This is not an obvious point, however... and many buyers likely don't even think of such a need when they buy a used bike, either privately or from a dealer. I think that the onus to include the TTS in the sale of the bike on which it's been used to tune is on the seller. The OP was given totally BS advice by the salesman, whoever that was... but that wasn't the OP's fault. There are probably many TTS users out there who have not actually used the TTS themselves, but rather have paid for a pro tune where the tuner used the TTS. Thus, the owners may not even be aware of much of anything about the tuning device that was used - much less that it "locks" the ECM, nor even that it marries itself TO that ECM when it's first used to flash in a cal.

So, Seller Beware AND Buyer Beware would both seem to apply to cases such as this.

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: hrdtail78 on August 28, 2013, 03:26:39 PM

I understand that some people have a concern about the ECM "locking". But it's there for a very good reason - to prevent some Yay-Hoo in a service dept from reflashing the ECM because the Digital Technician says it doesn't understand something it's seeing - thereby zapping the owners tune. I think that's the right approach, frankly... to protect the calibration. But that has caused problems in at least one case I read about, in which the dealer replaced the ECM because of the DT "error", thereby rendering the TTS useless. It's probably happened more that just that one time.

Ken

A little education of the customer, from forum or tuner, goes a long way here.  I try and take the time to educate my customers on what I am tuning their bike with.  Some listen and some don't.  I don't believe the guy working the DT at the dealership will know anything about TTS Lock he sees in the Cal ID spot.  But when he gets a hold of the customer before he sells him the new ECM.  The customer should have a clue, and straighten out the tech.  I had a great opportunity to go to the dealership I tune for a lot.  I got a good education on everything DT, and taught them about TTS lock. 
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: mayor on August 28, 2013, 03:39:53 PM
A little education of the customer, from forum or tuner, goes a long way here.   I try and take the time to educate my customers on what I am tuning their bike with.  Some listen and some don't.  I don't believe the guy working the DT at the dealership will know anything about TTS Lock he sees in the Cal ID spot.  But when he gets a hold of the customer before he sells him the new ECM.  The customer should have a clue, and straighten out the tech.  I had a great opportunity to go to the dealership I tune for a lot.  I got a good education on everything DT, and taught them about TTS lock. 
I agree completely.  I think taking to time to explain the risks and rewards to anything allows everyone to go into the situation with eyes wide open.  My closest HD dealer (Zepka) tunes with Mastertune as their preferred tuning system, so I don't think it is as big of an issue to some dealers as some would lead people to believe.  I actually have another local dealer that doesn't offer any tuning at all, so they are probably clueless either way...but that's really where its up to the consumer not to be clueless.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: SteveFLHTK on August 28, 2013, 03:52:34 PM


A TTS should always go with the bike when it's sold. It can't be used on any other bike to flash in a cal anyway. This is not an obvious point, however... and many buyers likely don't even think of such a need when they buy a used bike, either privately or from a dealer. I think that the onus to include the TTS in the sale of the bike on which it's been used to tune is on the seller. The OP was given totally BS advice by the salesman, whoever that was... but that wasn't the OP's fault. There are probably many TTS users out there who have not actually used the TTS themselves, but rather have paid for a pro tune where the tuner used the TTS. Thus, the owners may not even be aware of much of anything about the tuning device that was used - much less that it "locks" the ECM, nor even that it marries itself TO that ECM when it's first used to flash in a cal.

So, Seller Beware AND Buyer Beware would both seem to apply to cases such as this.

Ken

I traded my Ultra Limited just 6 weeks ago.  I included the TTS, along with the cables, in the tourpack.  Since I also removed the air cleaner and aftermarket exhaust, I offered to re-flash the ECM back to stock.....the Dealer refused.  Never even occurred to me to keep the TTS as I cannot imagine what use it would be, other than a very poor paper weight.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 28, 2013, 03:56:10 PM
I agree completely.  I think taking to time to explain the risks and rewards to anything allows everyone to go into the situation with eyes wide open.  My closest HD dealer (Zepka) tunes with Mastertune as their preferred tuning system, so I don't think it is as big of an issue to some dealers as some would lead people to believe.  I actually have another local dealer that doesn't offer any tuning at all, so they are probably clueless either way...but that's really where its up to the consumer not to be clueless.

And that's really my point... Anyone who spends the money for things like tuning devices, a custom tune, etc. really SHOULD educate themselves on what they are getting, and the ramifications thereof. Unlike autos, about which most consumers are, for better or worse, pretty ignorant about the product... Harley owners are well-advised to take some time and go to the effort of learning what devices like the TTS really do - even if its only the basics like the fact that it locks the ECM from having any changes made to the cal, and that the TTS device itself is married to that particular ECM. Not to the bike...  but to that particular ECM unit.

If I were selling the TTS, I would include a sheet listing this stuff, so the buyer would have no excuse to NOT know it. And yeah I know... They might not actually read it, much less understand the ramifications. But even though you can't MAKE the camel drink... you need to at least make the water available to it!

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 28, 2013, 04:04:37 PM
I traded my Ultra Limited just 6 weeks ago.  I included the TTS, along with the cables, in the tourpack.  Since I also removed the air cleaner and aftermarket exhaust, I offered to re-flash the ECM back to stock.....the Dealer refused.  Never even occurred to me to keep the TTS as I cannot imagine what use it would be, other than a very poor paper weight.

Yeah, it's WAY too light for that!

But seriously, if you sell a bike knowing its been tuned with a TTS, you do your buyer a HUGE DISSERVICE by not including the TTS unit in the sale.

The cables are a different matter tho... they can buy the cables cheaply, and you can use the cables with a new TTS on your next bike. They don't need the cables unless/until they retune the bike anyway... and if they have the bike pro tuned by someone who tunes using the TTS, they shouldn't need the cables at all because the tuner can use their own cables.

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: SteveFLHTK on August 28, 2013, 04:05:42 PM
I sent the cables with it because I knew I was getting a new blue unit, and the cables were not compatible.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: mayor on August 28, 2013, 04:12:25 PM
If I were selling the TTS, I would include a sheet listing this stuff, so the buyer would have no excuse to NOT know it. And yeah I know... They might not actually read it, much less understand the ramifications. But even though you can't MAKE the camel drink... you need to at least make the water available to it! 
I agree, hrdtail and I discussed this at length a little while back.  In addition to verbally covering this at the point of sale, I know that he also supplies a instruction/warning document along with the stock mte on a thumb drive to any tune he does with the TTS.  About the only thing I think would be even more of a precautionary step would be apply some sort of label on the ecm or data port, but that might be just be me being a little to OCD. 

I disagree with the TTS VCI only being good for a poor paperweight once the bike it's locked to is no longer around.  You can still use the VCI to record Datamaster data (knock retard events, clear codes, etc.) even on bikes it's not locked too.  I wouldn't advocate keeping one that's been locked to a bike, but I think they still have value even if you can't tune with them anymore.  I have used my personal VCI's to review data from PV tuned bikes, because I like the TTS software better than DJ PV when it comes to reviewing data. 
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 28, 2013, 04:30:47 PM
I agree, hrdtail and I discussed this at length a little while back.  In addition to verbally covering this at the point of sale, I know that he also supplies a instruction/warning document along with the stock mte on a thumb drive to any tune he does with the TTS.  About the only thing I think would be even more of a precautionary step would be apply some sort of label on the ecm or data port, but that might be just be me being a little to OCD. 

I disagree with the TTS VCI only being good for a poor paperweight once the bike it's locked to is no longer around.  You can still use the VCI to record Datamaster data (knock retard events, clear codes, etc.) even on bikes it's not locked too.  I wouldn't advocate keeping one that's been locked to a bike, but I think they still have value even if you can't tune with them anymore.  I have used my personal VCI's to review data from PV tuned bikes, because I like the TTS software better than DJ PV when it comes to reviewing data. 

I don't think you're being too OC at all... It's the responsible thing to do for the customer, I think.

Heck, the last time I bought a cup of Starbucks, the cup had a warning that said it is served EXTREMELY HOT! Well, NO CHIT, Sherlock! I guess that's fallout from that woman who sued McDonalds after she spilled a cup in her crotch! If you TELL the customer something - such as "CAUTION! This saw blade is REALLY FRIGGIN' SHARP!" - then if they cut their finger off with it, it ain't your fault.

And yeah, for people like you pros who tune lots of bikes, the TTS can be used to gather data and do everything else on any bike - except actually flash in a new cal other than to the ECM it's married to. I didn't really want to mention that because its not relevant to most of us Great Unwashed, but you brought it up...  ;D

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: hrdtail78 on August 28, 2013, 04:46:51 PM
Since the HD06 does save the MTE.  I have quit giving flash drives out.  I do still email them with their final cal and dyno sheet.  The "disclaimer" is stilled used also.

Doesn't matter what I am tuning or with what.  I always use Datamaster for spark tune data.  14 frames a second on 1850.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on August 28, 2013, 05:09:16 PM
Since the HD06 does save the MTE.  I have quit giving flash drives out.  I do still email them with their final cal and dyno sheet.  The "disclaimer" is stilled used also.

Doesn't matter what I am tuning or with what.  I always use Datamaster for spark tune data.  14 frames a second on 1850.

+1

Mr. Wizard taught me to also ALWAYS do a cam tune run first, to at least get the IVO setting correct before VTuning. When we retuned the Honey Badger last week, he did a spark tune run, and we backed the IVO setting from 4 down to 3 because there was a very slight uptick that just wasn't there the last time. Bike seems to run better with an IVO setting of 3 now...

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Hilly13 on August 28, 2013, 07:48:45 PM
This is just an idea, how about a nice TTS Blue interface plug cap that would go on the bike to replace the stock black one, have TTS Tuned and Locked in raised lettering as a visual warning to any that go there, might stop an over eager tech from miss diagnosis, maybe not either but it sure would look nice :)
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: turboprop on August 28, 2013, 09:15:20 PM
I had the opportunity to use a beta version of TTS that had the Flight Recorder function enabled. Worked very well.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: timo482 on August 28, 2013, 11:56:28 PM
Ill bet the liability the dealer was afraid of is EPA tampering liability. If the dongle is on the bike it's obvious.   I really feel for folks buying used efi bikes. Two bikes ago I got a used efi bike, had all kinds of wired issues, turned out it was flashed for 203cams but had stock cams in it

A sticker on the ECM, tuned by x software, not stock. Would do the trick, would also probably lower value as I have found that a bike has highest resale bone stock, mods are often deducts, not adds

Kindest bet for a trade in is flash to stock, throw the dongle and tune in the map pocket and let the new buyer use the tuner of his choice.

To
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Buckeye_Tuning on August 29, 2013, 01:15:28 PM
Forum of Darkness is really GREAT!  I'm going to use that from now on!

I am starting to think of stickers, too.  Even looked at Vistaprint to make me think more about this.  I have ALWAYS given my tuner, with the bike, whenever I traded one in. 

When I finally get around to turning my personal bike back to Lambda (by installing the original 2010 ECM...  I am using an 09 ECM because back in the day... there were no Lambda tunes for a 120r), I am going to buy a blue TTS for that bike for sure. 

We, here, tend to be on the side of knowledge, etc.  but one has to also remember the guys that go to shops with money... not time, nor energy, to DIY anything.  If us members can help educate our fellow members...  PLEASE TURN IN YOUR TUNER WITH THE BIKE...  we can help countless folks down the road.  CHEAP new bikes are $20k anymore.  Give UP that $500 tuner to the next guy.  That will help the next guy... AND the next dude who works on the bike.

It is simply beyond me why someone would allow a bike, with a tuner married to it, down the road to a new owner withOUT that bike's tuner.  Even a PC3!!!  If a bike has mods... and it took some kind, any kind of tune to make it run better....  PLEASE give that tuner up.

The benefit of that is simple.  Kharma won't bite you, and....  you will be forced to buy a new tuner with the new bike.  That is NOT a bad thing... and this discussion points this out readily...  new versions of all tuners seem to be way better tuners.  There is now a TTS2 that is light years away, functionally, from the old TTS.  SEPST has altered their business model to mimic TTS and PV... no more disks to buy.  I have even heard of some calling new PVs a PV2?

Oh...  cables are always available for TTS2 at a Harley dealer.  Good enough quality, too.  Just buy a cable set for a SEPST.  $40
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: SSTuner on September 04, 2013, 06:06:13 AM
Update: I went over to the dealership and asked about contacting the guy that bought my V-Rod, so I can give him some spare parts off the bike (I didn't want to say the TTS).  They told me that they could not give me his phone number/info but they would gladly call him and give him my phone #.  Not an issue for me.  Well the dealership called me later and said that the owner did not need the parts as the bike was wrecked and totaled.  What a bummer... :o

Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: North Georgia Hawg on September 04, 2013, 06:26:58 AM
Update: I went over to the dealership and asked about contacting the guy that bought my V-Rod, so I can give him some spare parts off the bike (I didn't want to say the TTS).  They told me that they could not give me his phone number/info but they would gladly call him and give him my phone #.  Not an issue for me.  Well the dealership called me later and said that the owner did not need the parts as the bike was wrecked and totaled.  What a bummer... :o



Well, that's a shame. Hope no one was injured in the wreck.

Ken
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Mr. Wizard on September 04, 2013, 08:20:00 AM
Not trying to be a smart-butt but..

That really doesn't pass the sniff test. More like someone doesn't want to call the guy for you.

Do you trust that wrecked information?
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: charles05663 on September 04, 2013, 07:33:25 PM
Update: I went over to the dealership and asked about contacting the guy that bought my V-Rod, so I can give him some spare parts off the bike (I didn't want to say the TTS).  They told me that they could not give me his phone number/info but they would gladly call him and give him my phone #.  Not an issue for me.  Well the dealership called me later and said that the owner did not need the parts as the bike was wrecked and totaled.  What a bummer... :o

Maybe the don't want you to give him the original parts so the can sell him some or they are worried that you might talk about the price of the bike.

 :oops: :nixweiss:
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Lever on September 04, 2013, 09:36:04 PM
I have the black TTS if I purchased the blue TTS  will my cables that came with my black module  work on the new blue module ? or do I have to buy new cables ? as well
thanks Lever
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Hilly13 on September 04, 2013, 10:02:51 PM
The VCI to bike cable will fit, the other end is now a printer cable, albeit a flash one.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Gamma742 on November 30, 2013, 07:57:53 PM
I have a black TTS Mastertune (single license) for my SEUC and want to add a second license to it for my wife's FLSTSE. Can this still be done on the old Black TTS?
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: old_dirt on December 16, 2013, 04:11:47 PM
I have a black TTS Mastertune (single license) for my SEUC and want to add a second license to it for my wife's FLSTSE. Can this still be done on the old Black TTS?

Yes
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Steve Cole on December 16, 2013, 06:58:21 PM
Well the day has come that we are no  longer able to get some of the parts in the old Black box TTS units for a reasonable cost. Some of the IC suppliers have discontinued some of the parts, so we have stopped doing the SERT upgrade and are stopping  upgrading the old units. We are working on a possible upgrade from your TTS old black box to the newer TTS Blue box units but nothing is done at this time. It will be after the first of the year sometime before we can get the software developed and tested to make this project move forward but we are working on it. I do not have a cost or timeline yet so that's all the information I can give you at this time. Another issue is tht we have had a few customers send units in for an upgrade to a dual unit only to buy a new bike that has the HD-LAN system and the old Black unit is NOT capable of working on those!
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Lever on December 16, 2013, 08:15:34 PM
thanks for the info Steve  I'm waiting patiently to up grade my black to blue  :)
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: YELLOWBIRD on December 16, 2013, 10:28:10 PM
thanks for the info Steve  I'm waiting patiently to up grade my black to blue  :)

X2!

I'll be second in line when that time comes, please.  :bananarock:

YB
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Gamma742 on February 06, 2015, 06:56:49 PM
Put me down too.. Mine is Black.. The wife's is Blue.
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Lever on February 06, 2015, 09:28:33 PM
Steve any updates on the possibility of the black to blue upgrade
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: jcav52 on February 07, 2015, 02:28:39 PM
TTS 3 is available for download!  :)
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: cvo110annivroadglide on February 14, 2015, 08:38:31 PM
I am buying the blue one, getting ready to add the Vance & Hines Power Dual Headers, already have the Fullsac 2.0 Power Cores. I was wondering which cal do I use, the stock or the racing?
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: tqjunkie on December 28, 2015, 04:52:53 AM
Well the day has come that we are no  longer able to get some of the parts in the old Black box TTS units for a reasonable cost. Some of the IC suppliers have discontinued some of the parts, so we have stopped doing the SERT upgrade and are stopping  upgrading the old units. We are working on a possible upgrade from your TTS old black box to the newer TTS Blue box units but nothing is done at this time. It will be after the first of the year sometime before we can get the software developed and tested to make this project move forward but we are working on it. I do not have a cost or timeline yet so that's all the information I can give you at this time. Another issue is tht we have had a few customers send units in for an upgrade to a dual unit only to buy a new bike that has the HD-LAN system and the old Black unit is NOT capable of working on those!
Hi Steve or anybody in the know,did the upgrade from the black to blue ever happen ,thanks
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: rheiner on December 28, 2015, 01:07:40 PM
Hi Steve or anybody in the know,did the upgrade from the black to blue ever happen ,thanks

X2
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Lever on December 28, 2015, 03:50:59 PM
X3
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: Fired00d on December 28, 2015, 04:10:34 PM
Hi Steve or anybody in the know,did the upgrade from the black to blue ever happen ,thanks
If you want to ask (and get a reply from) Steve Cole regarding TTS products you will need to address him in this board - TTS (http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?board=72.0). Create a new thread w/your question and he will/can reply to you there.

 :pumpkin:
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 :fireman:
Title: Re: TTS Mastertune I (black) vs. TTS Mastertune II (blue) differences?
Post by: DrSpencer on January 01, 2016, 12:21:13 AM
I have the old Black TTS.

I tune using my laptop, connected to a remote monitor mounted to my handlebars.

If the new Blue TTS's Flight Recorder feature doesn't require a laptop, how do I use my handlebar mounted remote monitor?

Thanks