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Custom Vehicle Discussions => Screamin' Eagle® Road Glide® => Topic started by: Jim Kerr on September 17, 2008, 04:54:50 PM

Title: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 17, 2008, 04:54:50 PM: I did a dyno run on my bike today. I wanted to establish an initial baseline before making any performance modifications. It is 100% stock with about 750 miles on it.

And the disappointing results are:
Max Horsepower: 78.9
Max Torque: 93.7

We did three runs on the bike with the first one being the best. These bikes are restricted big time. The rev limiter cuts out at 5500 RPM and the exhaust and cc take the bike to its knees. Freaking pathetic! These are CVO SE machines for goodness sake. What's up with that?

Clearly the SERG's are pay to play machines. The power is hiding in there, but to get top performance out of it we're going to have to open our checkbooks.

Here's the graph...
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on September 17, 2008, 05:31:28 PM: Quote from: Jim Kerr on September 17, 2008, 04:54:50 PM
I did a dyno run on my bike today. I wanted to establish an initial baseline before making any performance modifications. It is 100% stock with about 750 miles on it.

And the disappointing results are:
Max Horsepower: 78.9
Max Torque: 93.7

We did three runs on the bike with the first one being the best. These bikes are restricted big time. The rev limiter cuts out at 5500 RPM and the exhaust and cc take the bike to its knees. Freaking pathetic! These are CVO SE machines for goodness sake. What's up with that?

Clearly the SERG's are pay to play machines. The power is hiding in there, but to get top performance out of it we're going to have to open our checkbooks.

Here's the graph...

Yeap, always was. These are EPA approved machines, not performance machines. They should go back to calling em CVO's and not SE's! And check out the way those crappy 255 cams drop your TQ curve like lead at 4500. Don't bother taking it much above that. Useless and futile. The stock configuration rides best "short-shifting" between 3000-4500 RPM. Stay in that range and ya can still have some fun with it! ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: customryder on September 17, 2008, 05:44:35 PM: are the cats in the tail pipe or header?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Guilty on September 17, 2008, 05:47:21 PM: Quote from: Hoist! on September 17, 2008, 05:31:28 PM
Yeap, always was. These are EPA approved machines, not performance machines. They should go back to calling em CVO's and not SE's! And check out the way those crappy 255 cams drop your TQ curve like lead at 4500. Don't bother taking it much above that. Useless and futile. The stock configuration rides best "short-shifting" between 3000-4500 RPM. Stay in that range and ya can still have some fun with it! ;)

Hoist! 8)

Funny that you mention that...I had a salesman correct me a few weeks ago, he said "they dont refer to these bikes as Screamin' Eagle, they are called CVO now".
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Texas 103 on September 17, 2008, 05:47:49 PM: Quote from: Hoist! on September 17, 2008, 05:31:28 PM
Yeap, always was. These are EPA approved machines, not performance machines. They should go back to calling em CVO's and not SE's! And check out the way those crappy 255 cams drop your TQ curve like lead at 4500. Don't bother taking it much above that. Useless and futile. The stock configuration rides best "short-shifting" between 3000-4500 RPM. Stay in that range and ya can still have some fun with it! ;)

Hoist! 8)

Will 251's wake it up with out other mods? Looking for bolt in power, maybe cams and exhaust..Greg
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on September 17, 2008, 05:49:44 PM: Quote from: Guilty on September 17, 2008, 05:47:21 PM
Funny that you mention that...I had a salesman correct me a few weeks ago, he said "they dont refer to these bikes as Screamin' Eagle, they are called CVO now".

That's why there's a SE logo splattered all over the front of the SERG fairing! Don't ya know, they jusy make chit up as they go! Deaslers are FOS!!! FTD!!! ::) ;D ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 17, 2008, 05:57:48 PM: Quote from: customryder on September 17, 2008, 05:44:35 PM
are the cats in the tail pipe or header?

Unfortunately the cats are in the header where they combine into one.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: GregKhougaz on September 17, 2008, 05:58:23 PM: Quote from: Jim Kerr on September 17, 2008, 04:54:50 PM

Clearly the SERG's are pay to play machines. The power is hiding in there, but to get top performance out of it we're going to have to open our checkbooks.

Have we not already? Thanks for the report, Jim! I would tend to blame the EPA as much as HD. I've thought all along we'll need Cams, Super SERT and Pipes. Patience is not one of my virtues.... Done a lot of reading and had success w/ 257 cams in the 103" motor. Don't want to get too loud as well. Thanks for being a pioneer here!

Greg
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 17, 2008, 06:21:43 PM: Quote from: GregKhougaz on September 17, 2008, 05:58:23 PM
Have we not already? Thanks for the report, Jim! I would tend to blame the EPA as much as HD. I've thought all along we'll need Cams, Super SERT and Pipes. Patience is not one of my virtues.... Done a lot of reading and had success w/ 257 cams in the 103" motor. Don't want to get too loud as well. Thanks for being a pioneer here!

Yep, exhaust, cams and a race tuner are a must have with these bikes. Pulling the cat or changing the headers will probably be on the list as well. Thank you EPA!

Time to talk about engine mods... What should we do to wake this sleeping giant up?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on September 17, 2008, 06:23:17 PM: Quote from: Texas 103 on September 17, 2008, 05:47:49 PM
Will 251's wake it up with out other mods? Looking for bolt in power, maybe cams and exhaust..Greg

Sure will Greg. You can get away with 251's, pipes and open A/C and a good tune. The other stuff helps it do better though. But this is a decent bolt in cam with a larger TB, which you already have on an '08 & '09. ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: customryder on September 17, 2008, 07:21:50 PM: is it possible to cut out the cat? maybe weld in a stright pipe? I like the looks of the factory exhaust & not crazy about spending 700+ for exhaust..

Just for giggles i took off the breather & the bike did seem faster...
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on September 17, 2008, 07:25:57 PM: Open up the intake and exhaust, and you guys better be getting a tune to go along with it! Matter of fact, Personally, I'd do the tune even with a stocker! Stock is way too lean!!! :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 110tHunDer on September 17, 2008, 07:54:22 PM: Quote from: Guilty on September 17, 2008, 05:47:21 PM
Funny that you mention that...I had a salesman correct me a few weeks ago, he said "they dont refer to these bikes as Screamin' Eagle, they are called CVO now".

Quote from: Hoist! on September 17, 2008, 05:49:44 PM
That's why there's a SE logo splattered all over the front of the SERG fairing! Don't ya know, they jusy make chit up as they go! Deaslers are FOS!!! FTD!!! ::) ;D ;)

Hoist! 8)

My dealer said the same thing after coming back from the show in Las Vegas. I posted about it somewhere here. They want to begin down-playing the Screamin' Eagle name and start making the CVO name more prominent. Who knows the reason? Might have something to do with their agreement with the EPA? :nixweiss:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Twolanerider on September 17, 2008, 08:06:45 PM: Quote from: Jim Kerr on September 17, 2008, 04:54:50 PM

And the disappointing results are:
Max Horsepower: 78.9
Max Torque: 93.7

That's got to be disheartening. 110 cubic inches and less than 80 hp. Not even 95 ft pds of torque. The little 95" motor in the old 2000 SERG is internally stock and sees better curves with about 17% smaller displacement.

It's unfortunate you've got to put some cash in to the engine to make the bike perform even close to what the looks of the package suggests is expected. At least everyone knows how to proceed though. Good luck with it and will look forward to the "after" reports when you've got it where you want it.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on September 17, 2008, 09:58:42 PM: :-X

Thanks for the info Jim, I installed the Fullsac cores this eve and have ordered a SERT. I should get it tuned in the next few weeks now that the 2" cores are installed. I will take a couple of air boxes with me and try each out on the dyno, see what works and what doesn't

I have seen those numbers before, might have been in the accessory catalog, dunno for sure. Yes it knocked the wind out of my sails.

It will just take some more work and .... well $$$.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: customryder on September 17, 2008, 10:14:59 PM: Quote from: Iglide on September 17, 2008, 09:58:42 PM
:-X

Thanks for the info Jim, I installed the Fullsac cores this eve and have ordered a SERT. I should get it tuned in the next few weeks now that the 2" cores are installed. I will take a couple of air boxes with me and try each out on the dyno, see what works and what doesn't

I have seen those numbers before, might have been in the accessory catalog, dunno for sure. Yes it knocked the wind out of my sails.

It will just take some more work and .... well $$$.

how do they sound? I have some coming also
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on September 17, 2008, 10:25:44 PM: The 2" aren't as loud as I would have expected. Does have a nice HD rumble though. Better than stock. I fired it up in the garage after dark. I'm sure it will be more impressive accelerating down the road. At this point I am very happy with what I got for the money.

I will suspect that the cats upstream are a big unfortunate restriction. Will find out after a dyno. I won't make any more exhaust mods until dyno shows what's up. With Jim's info, we now know what's stock is.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 17, 2008, 10:53:59 PM: Thanks Iglide. Looking forward to seeing your data. Fullsacs are on their way to me as we speak. I went with the 1 3/4" baffles so we can baseline the difference between the two. The smaller pipe may help out with torque without giving up much, if any, HP. It will be interesting...

I'm seriously considering drilling my cat when I have the exhaust off. I believe dartman has drilled his. It basically takes a 1.6" core bit and 10 minutes.

What may work out is that you keep the cat in and I will drill mine. We can compare dyno runs and see what happens.

BTW, when you do your first dyno, please do it before you apply any SERT map. Try to run it stock with only the exhaust change. Then apply the basemap and do another run. This will help us determine if the computer is holding the bike back.

The more data we have the better. We just need to be systematic about this so we can narrow down what makes a difference and what doesn't. Steve at Fullsac is also going to be doing similar tests. We should start seeing some good data coming in soon.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on September 17, 2008, 11:04:57 PM: Wow! This is cool! Go to town guys! :2vrolijk_21:

:vrolijk_11: :drink:

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on September 17, 2008, 11:18:38 PM: Agreed,

If you don't measure you don't know. I am at least 3 weeks away, from the dyno thing.

I can't tell how deep that cat area is in the crossover; and, if you can drill all of it out from the upper header entrance for the right muffler. Would it be a concern if some of that cat is left in the lower portion of the header obstructing that outflow to the left muffler? There's a welded ninety there, where it crosses over to the left side.

I probably to remove the whole header, take it to work, cut the 90 off and drill both sides upper and lower, get it all out. That will light up those new cores you can bet on that.

I spoke with TR at TMAN and he reccommends an entire 110 Kit: TB, Pistons, Cams, Head Work (porting, guides, springs, etc).

I asked Short Block Charlie for his reccommendations for a cam and head work without doing the pistons and TB.
He says he will get some info together for tomorrow.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on September 17, 2008, 11:26:19 PM: Hoist,

You seem to be very knowledgeable with regards to all this business. I'm a good wrench, but don't know squat about engine internals.

I would certainly appreciate your reccommendations for bringing this beast to life. There are a lot of ideas out there, I would respect yours.

Whatcha think?
Can we get the numbers in the 100s without the pistons and TB. I'm ready for the bolt in Cams, SERT, and some Head Work.

I run in the Texas Panhandle. Lot's of wind. When I get into that passing lane in a 40mph head wind, I just want to get gone. The race track isn't my thing as I still need a daily rider.

Just get me on the right planet.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on September 17, 2008, 11:45:04 PM: Quote from: Iglide on September 17, 2008, 11:26:19 PM
Hoist,

You seem to be very knowledgeable with regards to all this business. I'm a good wrench, but don't know squat about engine internals.

I would certainly appreciate your reccommendations for bringing this beast to life. There are a lot of ideas out there, I would respect yours.

Whatcha think?
Can we get the numbers in the 100s without the pistons and TB. I'm ready for the bolt in Cams, SERT, and some Head Work.

I run in the Texas Panhandle. Lot's of wind. When I get into that passing lane in a 40mph head wind, I just want to get gone. The race track isn't my thing as I still need a daily rider.

Just get me on the right planet.

I wouldn't trust a stock motor in the 100's personally! I'll only tell you what I've seen work myself. My first recommendation is to do what you're already doing. Consult with reputable engine designers. You've mentioned 2 already. Most are doing similar things. Modifying and porting heads and maybe changing valve size, much larger TB, well matched stump pullin cam, lifters, pushrods, camplate, 2:1 exhaust, and new pistons and cylinders if ya can afford it. We all make our own decisions on spending our $$$. But from everything I've seen, I'd replace as much as possible with stronger chit before I tried making big hp with mostly stock components. Nuthin for nuthin! ;)

My build is documented here if you want to review it.
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=21375.msg342859#msg342859

I wish all you guys luck with these engine mods. It can be done succesfully at different levels. Depends what you want out of it, and how much you're willing to spend. I'll be happy to chime in if I can help at all. I know an awful lot about em, but I don't build em myself. This chit ain't ROCKET SCIENCE though!!! ;D

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: MikeD on September 18, 2008, 06:33:06 AM: Great report, I appreciate it!!!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 18, 2008, 08:07:17 AM: Quote from: Iglide on September 17, 2008, 11:18:38 PM
I can't tell how deep that cat area is in the crossover; and, if you can drill all of it out from the upper header entrance for the right muffler. Would it be a concern if some of that cat is left in the lower portion of the header obstructing that outflow to the left muffler? There's a welded ninety there, where it crosses over to the left side.

I probably to remove the whole header, take it to work, cut the 90 off and drill both sides upper and lower, get it all out. That will light up those new cores you can bet on that.

Iglide, I am piecing things together as we go here, but as I look at this drilling just through the right pipe may not be a problem even if all of the material isn't removed. The point is to open it up. Gas will take the path of least resistance. A bit of back pressure is certainly better than what we have right now and the cat is porous even if the exhaust must travel through it under high pressure.

Dartman mentioned in one of his posts that the cc's were 7" long and we need to use a 1.6" core bit to drill it. When I look at mine I see about a 7" welded section that starts (from rear to front) just after the 90 degree elbow you referred and it stops where the two main header pipes combine (see pic). I believe this is the section with the cat. I can't tell without opening it, but it looks like the cat ends just before the 90 degree crossover. I don't think cutting that off would be helpful.

FWIW, my working theory is that if we drill through the main right pipe header it will open it up enough so gas will be able to get through to the crossover if need be. Will know more when I get my core bit and fullsec's !!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Texas 103 on September 18, 2008, 09:41:53 AM: Hey Jim,

Check this link out... on power, now granted he's running a different combo, read his thought on the exhaust system.. May not be that bad after all .Greg

http://groups.msn.com/HarleyTechTalk/dynoruns.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=1414081&LastModified=4675690409928852952 (http://groups.msn.com/HarleyTechTalk/dynoruns.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=1414081&LastModified=4675690409928852952)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Sparky on September 18, 2008, 01:58:12 PM: Guys

I added Reinhart slips on's and a SE Heavy Breather and a SE Super Tuner and got the following results:

2009 SERG

HP 86
Torque 105

the numbers are rounded (not sure up or down) I have the report at home and I am at work.

I can report that the bike runs much better seems to have more torque, I wish they did a run on the Dyno before the mods

The SE Heavy Breather looks great and gives me 1.5 to 2.0 more inches of room for my knees.

I have also added Progressive Suspension 13.0 inch 440's and the matching progressive front springs. Wow what a difference the bike NEVER bottoms out (front or back). Its a great ride now!!!!!!!!! The added height makes sure I never scrape the side stand or the floor boards.

I am in the process of adding the J&M Bluetooth connection to the Radio with a connection to a Radar Detector (behind the faring). I have already added the J&M speakers, (Big improvement!!!!!)

I am waiting to add a Kuryakan wind defelector. I cant add it yet as I need a rubber gasket (the stock CVO gasket will not work) and HD is back ordered on the gasket.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Guilty on September 18, 2008, 02:51:33 PM: Quote from: Sparky on September 18, 2008, 01:58:12 PM

I am in the process of adding the J&M Bluetooth connection to the Radio with a connection to a Radar Detector (behind the faring).

Please tell more...what brand of radar detector? How/where exactly are you mounting it? By behind the fairing do you mean inside the fairing?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: NWbiker on September 18, 2008, 03:20:04 PM: I added the Hard-Krome true dual Vortexx 4 inch muffler. Have the Race tuner and replaced the air cleaner with the SE one and the results on the dyno are.

HP-90
Torque 112

No changes to cams but have had the recall on the heads completed.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Sparky on September 18, 2008, 03:44:59 PM: I added the Hard-Krome true dual Vortexx 4 inch muffler. Have the Race tuner and replaced the air cleaner with the SE one and the results on the dyno are.

HP-90
Torque 112

No changes to cams but have had the recall on the heads completed

What bike and year?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on September 18, 2008, 05:58:42 PM: Thanks Sparky,

The SE Heavy Breather is what I have ordered to go with the Fullsac cores and Race Tuner. My bet is I'll get numbers like yours:

HP 86
Torque 105

If only we had a dyno with the cat drilled out ??? :-\
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: NWbiker on September 18, 2008, 06:36:12 PM: Quote from: Sparky on September 18, 2008, 03:44:59 PM
I added the Hard-Krome true dual Vortexx 4 inch muffler. Have the Race tuner and replaced the air cleaner with the SE one and the results on the dyno are.

HP-90
Torque 112

No changes to cams but have had the recall on the heads completed

What bike and year?

Its a 07 SE Ultra
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 19, 2008, 04:02:24 PM: I created this video to do a demo of our $30K Harley Sewing Machine Exhaust. I used my trusty Radio Shack sound meeter and got it to peak out at 102db's at 5000RPM's! I can get 103db's out of my Hawg-Wired stereo! Sad, very sad...

Close your eyes while listening to this. How many people would hear this bike running and think "Harley?" Not me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR7TFiqAZ0k
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: NWbiker on September 19, 2008, 06:17:41 PM: That sounds horrible, I'd get rid of those crappy sounding stockers and put some decent sounding mufflers on. :-[
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 110tHunDer on September 19, 2008, 06:48:27 PM: Very interesting video! How do you know where to position the sound meter to get a correct reading? Seems as if it was at the rear of the bike it would read higher, no? Also, you're picking up some engine noise with it where you had it mounted, too, I would suspect.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on September 19, 2008, 08:30:41 PM: Jim,

Sounds to me like somebody needs to step up to the plate and kill their cat. After all, it is crappin in all the damn flower beds. :drink:

Seriously though, Short Block is supposed to let me know tomorrow, if there will be any value in keeping them.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 19, 2008, 08:49:08 PM: I hear ya Iglide :2vrolijk_21:

I'm not a cop. I am not trying to measure sound from a regulatory perspective. If I were 200' away the sound would likely be zero DB! My objective is to establish reference data and a repeatable experiment. Is the exhaust louder? Does it sound better? Hard to say unless I know what I started with. When the exhaust is changed, and rest assured it will be, I will create a video using the exact same db meeter positioning and camera mic. We will all discover together if the changes I'm making are better or worse. Either way it will help my fellow CVO owners that are in the same boat I'm in.

FWIW, I'm using a special camera mount that isolates vibration to keep frame vibration from transferring into the meeter and interfering with the reading. I pointed the meter pickup rearward in an upward direction so it would pickup the pipes more than engine. I'm sure engine noise is picked up, but it is what it is. This is what we all hear when riding these $30K sewing machines.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: NWbiker on September 19, 2008, 08:59:31 PM: Sounds like your doing a very worthwhile experiment that will definitely help many with their decision on mufflers for their CVO. Picking up the sound in the position that you say where you positioned the sound pickup is exactly the right place to put it. When we ride the sound in the riding position is what we hear. My new Hard-Krome pipes and mufflers sound loud while riding but from behind it they have a different sound. I think what your doing is very worth while.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: customryder on September 19, 2008, 09:04:56 PM: http://www.jeffsautobodyshop.com/hd1.wmv 2'' fullsac cores.. better?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 19, 2008, 09:09:51 PM: Quote from: customryder on September 19, 2008, 09:04:56 PM
http://www.jeffsautobodyshop.com/hd1.wmv 2'' fullsac cores.. better?

Sounds a lot better! I'm going to do a similar experiment with the 1 3/4's Fullsec's since so many people are doing the 2". If time permits I will do a test with the cat and without.

Great video. Thank you!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Guilty on September 19, 2008, 10:24:24 PM: Quote from: customryder on September 19, 2008, 09:04:56 PM
http://www.jeffsautobodyshop.com/hd1.wmv 2'' fullsac cores.. better?

The 2" Fullsac cores sound a lot better! I expect to receive mine on Tuesday which means that by next weekend my bike will sound alive.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 110tHunDer on September 20, 2008, 08:29:03 AM: Quote from: Jim Kerr on September 19, 2008, 08:49:08 PM
I hear ya Iglide :2vrolijk_21:

I'm not a cop. I am not trying to measure sound from a regulatory perspective. If I were 200' away the sound would likely be zero DB! My objective is to establish reference data and a repeatable experiment. Is the exhaust louder? Does it sound better? Hard to say unless I know what I started with. When the exhaust is changed, and rest assured it will be, I will create a video using the exact same db meeter positioning and camera mic. We will all discover together if the changes I'm making are better or worse. Either way it will help my fellow CVO owners that are in the same boat I'm in.

FWIW, I'm using a special camera mount that isolates vibration to keep frame vibration from transferring into the meeter and interfering with the reading. I pointed the meter pickup rearward in an upward direction so it would pickup the pipes more than engine. I'm sure engine noise is picked up, but it is what it is. This is what we all hear when riding these $30K sewing machines.

Thanks for the explanation. I was simply being inquisitive, not critical.

The results were pretty surprising in that the dB was higher at 4,000 rpm than 5,000, showing that the pitch of the motor, although it seems as if it would be louder, isn't really contributing to the dB at all.

I look forward to your future clips!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 20, 2008, 09:52:27 AM: Yep, I was curious about that as well. My theory it is a combination of the exhaust back pressure and the cam that is causing this. I'm re-posting my stock dyno results to compare with.

at 2K its running about 82HP & 102 db
at 3K its running about 83HP & 96 db - believe exhaust restriction is building too much back pressure at this point and choking the engine. The cam is also weak in this range. There is virtually no increase in HP or torque from 2K-3K. My assumption is that this combo is why the db's drop.
at 4K its running about 94HP & 104 db - this is at or near peak engine/cam efficiency point.
at 5K its running about 80HP & 102 db - engine is working as hard as it can, but has bottomed out. This is where the cam and exhaust take the engine to its knees. Air can't get in or out, which is why its getting quieter even though the engine is working harder.

This is my working theory anyway. When I change the exhaust and do another dyno/video I'm hoping things will start coming together in the low-mid ranges. Cam & head work will be required to get the engine to be efficient above 4K rpm. We will likely see the db drop off at 5K in the post exhaust mod tests as well. Stay tuned...
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 20, 2008, 09:16:27 PM: I can finally say so long to my cat. This was pretty darn easy with the right tools. Get a 1.6" core bit and it will come out like butter. You do need a good drill though. The cat is solid. It takes a drill with good torque to get it out. Slow and easy is the key to success with this one.

So what's the verdict? It's restrictive - duh!

I did a db video ramp test, but don't have time to upload it. I will upload it later if you guys want to see it.

Here are the results:
Idle with cat: 93db - w/o cat: 96db
2K with cat: 102db - w/o cat: 100db
3K with cat: 96db - w/o cat: 101db
4K with cat: 104db - w/o cat: 105db
5K with cat: 102db - w/o cat: 106db

A few things I find interesting...
1) at 2K the engine is quieter (e.g. not working as hard)
2) The db ramp up is smooth and linear instead of up and down like before.
3) The exhaust is still very restrictive, yet the bike is more responsive. It doesn't take as much throttle to get the same speeds. The engine also seems to be running cooler.

How does it sound now? Well the exhaust is still pathetic, but I can am starting to hear the Harley sound coming through :bananarock:.

Here's a video of the Stock exhaust with the converter and then without:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8p_IgvYkHY
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: roady on September 21, 2008, 08:51:10 AM: So why do they advertise this bike with 115 ftlbs of torque ? I have read more then one article claiming that torque figure and it even shows it on the HD site.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 110tHunDer on September 21, 2008, 09:29:58 AM: Quote from: roady on September 21, 2008, 08:51:10 AM
So why do they advertise this bike with 115 ftlbs of torque ? I have read more then one article claiming that torque figure and it even shows it on the HD site.

They're measuring at the crank, not the rear wheel.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 21, 2008, 09:40:58 AM: Quote from: 103tHunDer on September 21, 2008, 09:29:58 AM
They're measuring at the crank, not the rear wheel.

You got it HunDer. moco Marketing people are in charge of stating numbers. The press is publishing what they've been told. I haven't found any articles where an independent third-party has dyno'ed a stock bike. This is why I published my results to the world. Your results may vary as they say :)

We drive in the real world. Dyno numbers do not lie. Sadly, stock this bike is not even close to 114. I'm confident it can get there and maybe even beyond, but not without spending some time and $$.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: grc on September 21, 2008, 10:13:36 AM: The attachment was lifted from the catalog description of the 110 Stage 1 kit (which is equivalent to the CVO 110). Their published rear wheel numbers aren't much different than what you found.

In my mind it's pretty sad when a manufacturer can't even come close to one horsepower or one pound-foot per cubic inch. Even lawnmowers do that nowdays.

Jerry
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Screamin on September 21, 2008, 10:42:21 AM: Ran mine yesterday. Seems in line w/ some others.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 21, 2008, 11:01:01 AM: Quote from: Screamin on September 21, 2008, 10:42:21 AM
Ran mine yesterday. Seems in line w/ some others.

Screamin, have you changed your exhaust or opened the cat? Your results seem to be better than my stock. Curious what may be different in the two.

My results were basically 79 HP & 92 LBS torque. Yours is around 86 HP & 99 torque. 7 more HP & 7 lbs more torque. Interesting...
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Screamin on September 21, 2008, 11:04:40 AM: Yeah, I thought so as well. I'd guess a difference in dynos as we're about the same alt. and yesterday was pretty average temp and humidity. Bike is bone stock.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 21, 2008, 01:03:40 PM: Quote from: Screamin on September 21, 2008, 11:04:40 AM
Yeah, I thought so as well. I'd guess a difference in dynos as we're about the same alt. and yesterday was pretty average temp and humidity. Bike is bone stock.

It was a hot day after I had been riding for awhile when I dyno'ed my bike. Temp might be what is causing the difference.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on September 21, 2008, 02:52:46 PM: Jim,

A few questions, if you don't mind...

Is a "core bit" the same as a "hole saw", extension required?

Did you drill the cat with the header on the bike? Were you able to access both sides of the cat area? Do you think it's all out?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 21, 2008, 03:10:28 PM: Quote from: Iglide on September 21, 2008, 02:52:46 PM
Is a "core bit" the same as a "hole saw", extension required?

A core bit is not a hole saw. The material the cat is made out of has a webbed composition that will tare and make a mess if you use a hole saw. A hole saw will also likely kick back and could do serious damage to the header. The cutting surface of the core bit is smooth with a flat carbide or diamond surface. It is designed to cut through just about anything without destroying it. It creates a smooth surface as it cuts.

Quote from: Iglide on September 21, 2008, 02:52:46 PM
Did you drill the cat with the header on the bike? Were you able to access both sides of the cat area? Do you think it's all out?

I did this while the headers were on the bike. You only need to pull the right muffler, which is a piece of cake.

The 2-1-2 exhaust initially combines just ahead of the cat. The cat fills the chamber where the two meet and flow into one opening. The 90 degree crossover that splits some of the exhaust over to the left side is after the cat. The pic below is as good as I can get. There's a small amount of the cat material that remains, but the bit cored a hole the exact inner diameter of each exhaust pipe. It doesn't seem to be an issue since both pipes have a straight shot out and they don't fire at the same time.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on September 21, 2008, 03:21:27 PM: Wow Great News Jim, couldn't have gone better!

Was there debris left after the drill out that had to be removed (shop vac)?

Would you show a pic of that core bit; and, where can I find one?

When will you get your cores?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 21, 2008, 04:03:05 PM: Iglide, I created a complete step by step guide in the Intake/Exhaust/ECM section on how to do this with pics of everything including the core bit. I also have a link on where to buy it.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=27814.0

If you are slow and careful there's almost no mess. I started the bike with the exhaust off and let it run to blow the dust out. Then wiped things down.

I went for a good ride today and can say without a doubt the bike is running and sounding better even with the stock mufflers. It is performing much better than I expected. No doubt the cat is very restrictive.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: planenut on September 21, 2008, 04:38:41 PM: thanks for the info again :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: as my cuse4 will be in within a few weeks,will do the mod when i change my mufflers,ging with monster ovals
:bananarock: :bananarock: :huepfenjump3:

jon
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: laylonlor on September 22, 2008, 09:12:30 PM: that's sad ya spend 32k on a bike and then have to put, another 5/6 k in it to get it to have enough power to keep up with a pan head :huepfenlol2:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Godeater on September 22, 2008, 10:07:34 PM: I would question the dyno or the bike as being off the norm. Here are some dyno runs from the 110's we have had a chance to run and the 2nd bike we did R&R heads and cams (585), stage 1 ac and Pro pipe.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Godeater on September 22, 2008, 10:09:11 PM: 2nd bike
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Godeater on September 22, 2008, 10:10:10 PM: 2nd bike after mods and dyno :orange:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Godeater on September 22, 2008, 10:28:02 PM: Heres another with just ac pipes and a PCIII, oh and little time in the dyno with Tuning Link.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 29, 2008, 06:29:15 PM: To catch everyone up, I've done some updates to the bike. I've removed the catalytic converter, I removed the OEM baffles and replaced them with 1 3/4" Fullsac Baffles and I have applied the a standard Race Tuner map (no tweaking yet). The air intake and everything else is 100% stock.

We Dyno'ed it today and I'm now pulling 86.2 HP and 105.0 torque. This compared to the stock numbers of 78.3 HP and 90.9 torque. This is proof positive that the stock pipes are highly restrictive. I've increased my horsepower by 7.9 and my torque by 14.1 by basically changing the pipes and coring the cat. Not bad for a couple of hours of work.

Next up we're going to spend a couple of days optimizing the tune on the Dyno. We should be able to get a bit more out of her.

Here's the graph of today's run (Blue Lines) compared to the 100% stock run (Red Lines).
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: NWbiker on September 29, 2008, 06:36:51 PM: Looks pretty good. I changed my pipes to 4 inch HardKrome with stepped headers from 1 3/4 to 2". The rest was A/C and Race tuner and my results were 90 HP with 112 Torque. So yea, just changing those stock mufflers will make a huge difference.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on September 29, 2008, 08:34:20 PM: Very respectable increase for the efforts, Nice Work ! :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on September 29, 2008, 08:45:22 PM: Quote from: Iglide on September 29, 2008, 08:34:20 PM
Very respectable increase for the efforts, Nice Work ! :2vrolijk_21:

No doubt. An increase of 7.9 HP and 14 lbs of torque for a bit over $100. The exhaust mods are the cheapest thing I've done to the bike.

You're up next. Can't wait until you dyno yours. It will be interesting to see what the Heavy Breather will do to these numbers.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on September 29, 2008, 08:58:09 PM: Well, can't wait to get on the band wagon. The local HD dealer had their Dyno down this past week, but was working with a tech over the phone to get it running. Said to call back Wed and may get me in this Saturday. If not I will attempt a ride out of town, weather permitting. Just a straight base line pull with no tune is not terribly expensive.

I had planned on the out of town trip to Edmond to get on their dyno last Saturday, when I discovered the breather bolt problem on the new Heavy Breather. Temporarily replaced with stock air box. I missed the dyno appointment as it took most of the day troubleshooting and cleaning up the mess.

While the stock breather is on, I'll dyno as is and make another pull with the new breather the following Saturday.
So pending some other surprise, I should have dyno results, stock with Fullsac cores Saturday night.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: planenut on September 29, 2008, 10:03:23 PM: This is real world info guys,keep it comming :) ;D

just picked up my cuse4 on saterday :bananarock:,and the sound is rotten >:(,my freind calls it a H-D goldwing ;)

have monster ovals coming and a new a/c and just orderd the new super sert :orange:

everyones # are better than I would of thought for little work and no engine work at all :2vrolijk_21:

thanks
jon
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on October 02, 2008, 10:55:49 PM: OK gang, I got my bike back today. We were able to get a bit more out of her. We are now at 97.4 HP and 114.0 TQ with the 1 3/4" baffles!

The primary changes to the bike were:
1) Removed the cat
2) Installed the Fullsac 1 3/4 baffles
3) installed Heavy Breather
4) Installed SE Spark Plugs
5) Good Dyno tune using Super SERT

The 1 3/4" baffles are indeed choking the engine and is taking away some HP. We can see the engine being held back using wide band O2's. I'm going to install 2" baffles and do another dyno tuning session as soon as I can. HP is good, but torque is better for my riding style. I'm hoping the 2" will give me a bit more HP without loosing too much TQ.

FYI, the attached graph is before and after the plug change. We got a bit more out of her by using more efficient spark plugs.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: planenut on October 02, 2008, 11:03:54 PM: Hi Jim,

what a/c system did you go with,the stock one from the cvo glides was'nt good enough?

thanks
jon
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on October 02, 2008, 11:08:28 PM: Quote from: planenut on October 02, 2008, 11:03:54 PM
what a/c system did you go with,the stock one from the cvo glides was'nt good enough?

Jon, I went with the SE Heavy Breather air cleaner. The one on the bike was good, but not as good as the Heavy Breather. That thing made a big difference in performance. It also looks cool.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: planenut on October 02, 2008, 11:29:48 PM: Jim is that the a/c that has the 90* bend in it

because it won't work with the lowers,haven't really found anything I liked thats why i was going with the a/c from the r/glides liked the look

any a/c sugestions for a cvo cuse4

thanks for the help on this and what you have done for the rest of us,as soon as the parts get here I will be doing mine

get ride of cat
monster ovals(09 models should be here any day)
cvo r/glide a/c
super sert

Jon
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on October 02, 2008, 11:46:24 PM: Quote from: planenut on October 02, 2008, 11:29:48 PM
Jim is that the a/c that has the 90* bend in it

because it won't work with the lowers,haven't really found anything I liked thats why i was going with the a/c from the r/glides liked the look

any a/c sugestions for a cvo cuse4

thanks for the help on this and what you have done for the rest of us,as soon as the parts get here I will be doing mine

get ride of cat
monster ovals(09 models should be here any day)
cvo r/glide a/c
super sert

Jon

Yes it is the one with the 90 degree bend. It will work with lowers, but you have to remove the right glovebox. I have lowers on my bike and it fits. The stock breather is a good one. Not as good as the heavy breather, but it does the job. You can certainly keep it. You will just loose a few HP.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: planenut on October 02, 2008, 11:53:22 PM: thanks jim

do you think that it is the element or the whole set up that is the problem

can you show a pic of yor filter anyway

Jon
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 03, 2008, 08:06:55 AM: Great News Jim!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 03, 2008, 06:45:23 PM: Jim,

Did you have any crank case/oil temps, before and after?? If, your mod.s would keep the temps below 200 F, that would be a major plus for reliability issues.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 03, 2008, 08:22:03 PM: WOW, More Stuff
I am scheduled on the dyno tomorrow morn. My 09 SERG is still stock with exception of the 2" Fullsac cores. They are installed. So with 650 mi booked, I figured it was bout time to find out what this rag would do stock. Luckily I am blessed with a flat out 20 mi black top, back road, perfectly legal for race runs..... Honest.... So I warmed up the SERG and ran it up, I can only report that in top gear at 4200 RPM the top speed is 120mph. We held the throttle wide open, and that was it for 5-6 min on a very long black top road, sorry gentlemen. The real problem is passing speed, from 90-110 took a very long time to gain speed. This is not a machine that could pass several vehicles in any kind of a head wind stock. So it needs some adjustments. Simply put, this engine has been "DETUNED" by HD to satisfy the environmental waccos. Sorry folks... it is what it is......
My experience has been that a 1800cc engine (retuned engine) should run up to 135 mph at 4500 RPM. And when you pull out in that pass zone at 70mph you should run up over 95mph when you look back down at the speedo prior to cutting back into your lane.

That's 100HP and 110TQ. That's where I want to be.... minimum.

So follow Jim's lead, that's where he seems to be....

I will step it through each mod with dynos, as long as the wife doesn't find out...... :-*

This 110 should produce 100HP and 112 ft/lbs of Torque. That's what I know.... But, What the hell do I know, anyway?

Wait till you see the disappointing results of my stock dyno results tomorrow eve, then you will know where we can go, where Jim is.........

Thanks bro...
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 03, 2008, 08:39:11 PM: Now for the GOOD NEWS,

This bike is incredible... The new frame is eveything... and more than it has been hyped up to be. For a tour bike this ride handles like nothing I have ever been on, in the same class.

It ABSOLUTELY loves to corner even at very high speeds. Just push down on that left handle and you lean left.... away you go.... VERY NICE....

No longer do I feel trapped in that straight line and struggle to turn in the corners at high speeds......

Ran home this eve., was pushing it at 90 plus, straigh ahead... a large carboard box..... push down on the left bar,the bike leans... go with it, around the box...., push down on the right bar...back right we go..... ease up on the right bar and center we go on down the road. My prior Jap bike would NEVER DO THIS.

Now don't go out and repeat this... I want to say here and now, you will surely place your life in jepordy. And whatever you do, never speed or break the law in any way! Really, I mean it!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 03, 2008, 10:12:38 PM: Quote from: Iglide on October 03, 2008, 08:39:11 PM
Now for the GOOD NEWS,

This bike is incredible... The new frame is eveything... and more than it has been hyped up to be. For a tour bike this ride handles like nothing I have ever been on, in the same class.

It ABSOLUTELY loves to corner even at very high speeds. Just push down on that left handle and you lean left.... away you go.... VERY NICE....

No longer do I feel trapped in that straight line and struggle to turn in the corners at high speeds......

Ran home this eve., was pushing it at 90 plus, straigh ahead... a large carboard box..... push down on the left bar,the bike leans... go with it, around the box...., push down on the right bar...back right we go..... ease up on the right bar and center we go on down the road. My prior Jap bike would NEVER DO THIS.

Now don't go out and repeat this... I want to say here and now, you will surely place your life in jepordy. And whatever you do, never speed or break the law in any way! Really, I mean it!

Who the hell in their right mind would ever do that anyway? :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:

I would!!! Every day of the week!!! :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3: :huepfenjump3:

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on October 03, 2008, 10:19:03 PM: Interesting Info iglide. I had similar performance issues, which is what started me on the quest to unlock the power. I can easily hit 100+ on my bike in 4th gear after the mods and it keeps going. Can't do much more than that in Chicago :nixweiss:

I'm still getting use to passing though. I put the hammer down and when I look back I don't see any cars? First few times I passed I didn't realize the dots in my mirror were the cars I just went by. I kept glancing over wondering what happened to them. Note to self, don't need full throttle to pass anymore :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 03, 2008, 11:29:01 PM: Yeah Jim, I'm with ya,..... now.... you will never be satisfied with anything less.

Dots.... Damn they never got that small for me............ Can't wait to repeat your modification model......

And folks round here thought I was crazy....

What the hell do I know anyway.....
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 03, 2008, 11:36:48 PM: I would!!! Every day of the week!!!

Hoist!

Not me Hoist, you must be out of your mind!!!!!

Why don't you just fall into line with all the others steering a-r-o-u-n-d the corners???

That way if one goes down, everyone can have a big party in the hospital TOGETHER !!!

What's up with you, don't you like crowds......??? Pervert

Honestly Hoist, I appreciate the help you have given me in the PM's
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 04, 2008, 08:52:06 AM: Quote from: Iglide on October 03, 2008, 11:36:48 PM
I would!!! Every day of the week!!!

Hoist!

Not me Hoist, you must be out of your mind!!!!!

Why don't you just fall into line with all the others steering a-r-o-u-n-d the corners???

That way if one goes down, everyone can have a big party in the hospital TOGETHER !!!

What's up with you, don't you like crowds......??? Pervert

Honestly Hoist, I appreciate the help you have given me in the PM's

There lies the difference I guess! Never cared to fall in line with others. Some are Cows and follow, some are Rhinos that lead! I'm a Rhino bro!!! I don't mind crowds if I like the people. Otherwise not much for crowds! And save the hospitals for those who need care! I'm not up to that yet! ;)

Happy to help man! :2vrolijk_21:
Hoist!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 04, 2008, 12:51:09 PM: You're gonna love this.....

Took the Glide to the HD dealer this morn, he put it on the dyno and made a couple of pulls....

When he finished he went to his puter to run the chart, we met back at the service desk and he handed me the curve.

As I glanced at it, the service tech was making an exit stage left..... Holding back the laughter, I called him back and a discussion ensued.

What a complete waste of time!

The numbers were:

Power: 98.4
Torque: 129.3

In the end there was no charge, and.... well...... I bought a cool cap!

Back to square one. I am very close to making all the upgrades at once and taking it to Dallas for a tune.
I will chew on it, this week..... Damn I'm gonna have to catch a break here somewhere :-\
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Twolanerider on October 04, 2008, 12:55:16 PM: Quote from: Iglide on October 04, 2008, 12:51:09 PM
You're gonna love this.....

The numbers were:

Power: 98.4
Torque: 129.3

In the end there was no charge, and.... well...... I bought a cool cap!

Dyno on 'roids :drink: .
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on October 04, 2008, 01:46:33 PM: Quote from: Iglide on October 04, 2008, 12:51:09 PM
The numbers were:

Power: 98.4
Torque: 129.3

When I was hanging around with my tuner we were chatting about Dyno's. He said there isn't a standard for Dyno manufacturers to follow. He also said a lot of them are intentionally set to air on the high side so owners feel good about their bikes and can brag to their friends. If these numbers were accurate you'd be bragging big time. 129.3 LB TQ would be awesome. You'd sure feel that if you had it.

I'd definitely move away form this place and go to a more legit shop. Can't believe they even gave you those results.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 04, 2008, 02:35:51 PM: During our conversation he mentioned that he didn't believe the numbers either, but their dyno repair man said the numbers were good.

And I've got some prime farm land in Alaska on the side of a mountain....

Having that knowledge prior to, I can't believe he even scheduled me an appointment. I checked the mirror when I got home and I didn't see idiot written across my forehead...
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: laylonlor on October 04, 2008, 05:04:46 PM: something is wrong here,....counter steering is .............push to the right and go left,... push to left go to the right :nixweiss: :nixweiss:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 04, 2008, 05:24:54 PM: I guess it's all how you look at it...laylonlor

Yes they taught me that too, but it held me back.... First and foremost, everyone has to ride within their own abilities... Do what works for you, if your current riding style isn't working; don't stay there in that long line of bikes steering through the corners..... (Needles, Iron Mtn, the ride to Sheridan / Legion Lk, Badlands, etc..) try something differant... Bear in mind, if one of the folks up front goes down... You all go down... well most of ya anyway.

Crap, I'm just some guy from the "show me state", what the hell do I know anyway....

For me I don't so much push out and away horizontally with my left hand/grip (steer right) to turn left. It works better for me to think in terms of pushing down towards the pavement with my left hand/grip to lean the bike left....
I don't believe I have ever turned that front wheel when traveling over.. say 30 mph. The only thing I can get it to do is lean......

I also counterweight my torso, guess that's from my old dirt bike days...
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: laylonlor on October 04, 2008, 11:27:19 PM: yea that counter steering is way more noticeable on a sport bike, cause the bars are low and your laying down more, and your usally running faster in the curves, don't notice on my seeg much either
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 08, 2008, 08:28:43 PM: Gentlemen,

THIS DOG HUNTS.....

The bike I bought weeks ago, doesn't live here anymore........

After the 2" Fullsac cores, the Cat Drill, Heavy Breather install (with custom breather bolts), Race Tuner with canned map (yet to be tuned), this bike really has a heart. Man, it wants to ROLL !!

Ran it hard this eve. after I worked through the Heavy Breather issues.... And

It loves to run at 3500-4500 RPM......

5th gear gets you 90mph @ 4000 RPM
6th gear gets you 100mph @ 4000RPM

At 4500 RPM in 6th the spedo is buried past the 120mph mark, my guess is it's running in excess of 130 mph

What's important to me is the passing lane. You pull out in 5th and accelerate to 4500 you have all kinds of head room into 6th gear to "get gone" and back into your lane.

This bike "Rocks" and it hasn't been tuned yet. Will do that Saturday, in Dallas, weather permitting.

After I "let her run" I checked the crank case temp oh yes... 245 deg F.

And 1 week ago before the drill... 270 deg. F

What's wrong with that picture??
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on October 08, 2008, 08:51:41 PM: Awesome job Iglide! You could barley hit 120 MPH a couple weeks back. Next you need radar to figure out what your top speed actually is.

Congrats!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 08, 2008, 10:01:57 PM: You made it happen, Shooter..... Thanks!

There's more yet, I am sure.... After the tune !!

If we get well into the 100s I may bow out.... As that is all I am accustomed to...

Next.... would be heads and cams..... Are you up for some of that??? Well .........you never know ??

;D
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on October 09, 2008, 07:38:48 AM: Nice work guys.

Sure looks like there is alot in the motor with out getting into the motor. That is great to know.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on October 09, 2008, 07:57:51 AM: Quote from: FLSTFI Dave on October 09, 2008, 07:38:48 AM
Nice work guys.

Sure looks like there is alot in the motor with out getting into the motor. That is great to know.

1800 CC is a huge engine. There is a lot in it, but it is worthless if air can't move through it efficiently. MoCo could have designed these better if they tried. BMW bikes are tree-huger friendly and will blow the doors (err..tour pack) off of a the stock Harley 110. I'd give them a run for their money now. Do a bit of engine work and not much will be able to catch us.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: GregKhougaz on October 09, 2008, 12:09:05 PM: Iglide & Jim,

Great work!! I'm still waiting on a drill bit and very jealous. Riding to Yosemite area this weekend but will hope to start performance work soon. Try safe, even if you are exceeding 100!!!

Greg
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on October 10, 2008, 07:46:07 AM: Quote from: Jim Kerr on October 09, 2008, 07:57:51 AM
1800 CC is a huge engine. There is a lot in it, but it is worthless if air can't move through it efficiently. MoCo could have designed these better if they tried. BMW bikes are tree-huger friendly and will blow the doors (err..tour pack) off of a the stock Harley 110. I'd give them a run for their money now. Do a bit of engine work and not much will be able to catch us.

I figure I will follow a very similar path as yours when I get mine this Feb. The only differance may be some one will have head pipes out by then with out the cat.

I may consder a different cam after the two year warrenty is up.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Texas 103 on October 12, 2008, 09:12:31 AM: Quote from: Jim Kerr on October 04, 2008, 01:46:33 PM
When I was hanging around with my tuner we were chatting about Dyno's. He said there isn't a standard for Dyno manufacturers to follow. He also said a lot of them are intentionally set to air on the high side so owners feel good about their bikes and can brag to their friends. If these numbers were accurate you'd be bragging big time. 129.3 LB TQ would be awesome. You'd sure feel that if you had it.

I'd definitely move away form this place and go to a more legit shop. Can't believe they even gave you those results.

Iwas over at Ed's yesterday when Rod (iglide) was getting his tuned, after talking to Ed about the differences in numbers between two Dynos. Dynojet and I believe he uses a Dynostar they will read differently due to the way they calculate torque. HP is almost the same,eveything else beig equal. Maybe Edd5 will chime in here and explain the differences. I rode Rob's bike yesterday after Ed tuned it DAMN>>>I'll let him give the rest of story, We just put the 205UJ map in mine and adjusted the throttle progressivity to 100% WOW big time different..made a nice difference after Cats and baffles but this really makes it nice. .Ed also told me that mastertune has a speedo calibration in it's software that allows for that adjustment Rob was about 3-4 mph fast curious to see what mine is ..Greg
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on October 12, 2008, 09:22:03 AM: Quote from: Texas 103 on October 12, 2008, 09:12:31 AM
Iwas over at Ed's yesterday when Rod (iglide) was getting his tuned, after talking to Ed about the differences in numbers between Dynojet and I believe he uses a Dynostar they will read differently due to the way they calaulate torque. HP is almost the same. Maybe Edd5 will chime in here and explain the differences. I rode Rob's bike yesterday after Ed tuned it DAMN>>>I'll let him givr the rest of story, We just put the 205UJ map in mine and adjusted the throttle progressivity to 100% WOW big time different..made a nice difference after Cats and baffles but this really makes it nice. .Ed also told me that mastertune has a speedo calibration in it's software that allows for that adjustment Rob was about 3-4 mph fast curious to see what mine is ..Greg

Excellent report! Glad you all are seeing the same results I have. It is a night and day difference with my bike. My tuner said the same thing about the formulas to calculate torque. The key is to go to a reputable shop. They will make sure their equipment is properly maintained.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 10:50:23 AM: Then there's the Factory Pro Dyno. It's a REAL Dyno that uses a strain gauge to actually measure torque, providing you with REAL numbers, not calculated! ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Texas 103 on October 12, 2008, 12:25:49 PM: Quote from: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 10:50:23 AM
Then there's the Factory Pro Dyno. It's a REAL Dyno that uses a strain gauge to actually measure torque, providing you with REAL numbers, not calculated! ;)

Hoist! 8)

So does the Dynostar that Ed uses, Strain Guage, real numbers that's why he told me he bought it and not a Dynojet I just didn't know enough to comment about how it works, maybe you do.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 12:33:07 PM: Quote from: Texas 103 on October 12, 2008, 12:25:49 PM
So does the Dynostar that Ed uses, Strain Guage, real numbers that's why he told me he bought it and not a Dynojet I just didn't know enough to comment about how it works, maybe you do.

Here's a start. This is from Factory Pro's ( http://www.factorypro.com/ ) site:

(and guys that know how to use it: http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5 )

True Horsepower (tm)
The Industry wide achievable HP standard
Problem:

Today, about 75% of the entire world's hp values are a mess of dynojet "hp", dynojet clone's rough approximations of dynojet horsepower , some brake dyno mfgr's "dynojet channel" that's "+/- 10% of a dj number" , some dynos that out exaggerate the dj numbers and imply that they know what the transmission hp and crank hp is, and even other dynos with the most expensive brochure that read whatever the user wants them to read, True, Real, SF and DJ..... (sigh...)

All because some guy thought that a 1985 prerelease version V Max made 145 crank hp according to the marketing dept. and he couldn't have his "new" inertia dyno read 90 hp on a stock dealership V-Max. Well, he WAS right at 85-90, but he made it read 120 to sell more people on his dynos. And that's where the chassis dyno hp mess started.

Simple Solution:

True HP.
Every dyno company can all do it.

DEF:
Corrected True HP is the:
Actual power under Steady State or Sweep with CORRECT inertial mass value at 20 f/ps
delivered to the drive roller of a chassis dyno
to which is ONLY added the dyne coast down parasitics and then
corrected to existing atmospheric test conditions.

Factory Pro has confidentially refused to exaggerate measured and corrected horsepower figures to sell more dynos.

Since Factory Pro hasn't rescaled horsepower for the last 20 year and our software reads the same files the same from the very first EC997 dyne system.

Some Dynamometer companies add to measured rear wheel power readings a factor that is based on ESTIMATED rear wheel power losses (under what power conditions? 125cc? 1200cc? under coasting conditions? with a 3.00x17 bias ply tire? a 190x17 radial tire? New heavy radial tire vs. worn old, light, stock bias ply tire? Who knows?)

In short, there is NO meaningful "average" tire to get a correct rear tire power transmission loss measurement for all bikes - so obviously, unless they actually measure the power lost in the rear tire, under driven load conditions, NO dyno company should BE ADDING incorrect power figures into the measured power. It's simply wrong.

The fact that they add varying amounts of power to the actual, "true" amount of power delivered and measured to the surface of the drive roller creates a situation that makes it an onerous task to compare power figures from different brands of dynamometer systems.

On simple inertial dynamometers, some (most, actually, all that I know of in the MC market) companies use an average for the inertial mass value of the engine, transmission, rear wheel, sprocket and chain on every bike - as if a YZ125 has the same rear wheel or internal rotating mass as a 1340cc Harley Davidson. Needless to say, if the software thinks that the YZ125 had a HD rear wheel on it, it would look like the 125 makes more HP at the rear wheel than it does at the crankshaft. It's simply wrong.
And - that's why you hear of 125cc Karts that make 43 hp at the rear wheels!!!!!

It's expensive to measure frictional losses in the engine and drivetrain, requiring the dyno to be able to drive the vehicle with engine off. Add the cost of a 50+hp electric motor, controlled power supply, etc. It's just not likely that $20,000 dyno will be equipped with that equipment.

It is also common for dynamometer companies to add to the power readings by adding transmission and primary gear/chain losses back into the measured power readings. Some companies make a concerted effort try to measure frictional losses and, optionally, add the power to the measured readings. Other companies - some that would surprise you - say that it's not important and give a blanket, single factor for frictional losses in every engine. That includes some $25,000-$35,000 dynes.

Some simply say that there is a meaningful "average" for every motorcycle,(2 stroke, 4 stroke, 1 cylinder/1 transmission, 4 cylinder/1 transmission) and apply it to every bike and that it is not a significant difference.

Blanket estimates of "average" losses and corrections are, quite simply, incorrect. At the upper levels of the industry, (we are talking about $150,000 - $500,000 AC or DC 4 quadrant dynamometers) it is not tolerated - shouldn't be - and needn't be.

There is a dyno company that actually has different versions of software that displays their own identical data files as different amounts of power depending on whether you use the DOS version or the Windows version of their software!!

True Rear Wheel Horsepower (tm) is Factory Pro's standard of measuring the power that is actually delivered to the rear wheel. It is honest, true, fair and duplicable. It is the ONLY standard that can be duplicated by the entire industry - regardless of the dyno manufacturer.

Following is a reference table so that, if you are used to rather inflated HP figures, you can see what your vehicle would generally make on the True HP Scale.

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 12:36:16 PM: True HP as compared to DJHP

It's not possible to give an absolute conversion factor, as it appears that dj dynos don't all read the same (my experience, other's, too - and Mag Articles and 2002 Roadracing World gsxr1000 and R1 comparison articles), but, you can take True HP from EC997's and produce an "average" djhp of of an "average" dj dyno - empirically derived, over 12 years of comparison of the two hp scales.

True HP Scale DJHP +/- 2% multiplication factor
50 True HP 52.5(hi mass) to
57.5(low mass) *1.05 to 1.15 = djhp
(the dj dynos do not compensate for the differences in inertial mass of the bike - an HD/Cruiser has a heavier rear wheel, chain and crankshaft than a YZ 250 and the EC997 dyne systems are not affected by)
80 True HP 90 djhp *1.12 = djhp
90 True HP 103 djhp *1.15 = djhp
100 True HP 115 djhp *1.15 = djhp
120 True HP 138 djhp *1.15 = djhp
130 True HP 150 djhp *1.15 = djhp
140 True HP 168 djhp *1.20 = djhp
150 True HP 180 djhp *1.21 = djhp
I don't know what the scale is after 275 True or in between 160 True and 275, as I haven't tested any motorcycle engine that makes that much power.
275 True HP 375 djhp *1.35 = djhp
The 275 True was a supercharged flat 6 Porsche engine in a stretched ZX11 frame.
Example: You made 116 True HP and you want to know what that is in an average djhp number:
See above chart -
Locate at 110 and 120 True - they are both "*.1.15 = djhp" -

So take:
116 x 1.15 and multiply it - get and average 133.2 djhp +/- 2% reading.
Proper tuning, especially on high HP bikes, like gsxr1000's, ZX12's and Hayabusa's GREATLY affects the power difference.

Due to the fact that the dj dyno's sweep so quickly on sweep hp tests, they get the acc. map and the main maps to occur during the test, ending up over-rich, affecting the HP difference - For example, a ZX12, tuned to run fully loaded, with the Acc. map NOT triggered, will be too rich on a dj at full throttle and will be too rich, requiring leaning them out a fairly large amount to make best power (remember - fast acc triggers both Main Fuel and Acc. Maps - both working at same time).
The average HP conversion factors assume that the bike was leaned out and tuned for best power on an average dj dyno.

The other factor that needs to be taken into account is that dj dynos assume that every vehicle has the same rotating mass - they don't - and that disregard is another reason why the hp conversion figures are different. The EC997's can measure power in Steady State Mode (inertia is not a factor in power equation), the inertial mass changes on each bike affects the dj power, but not the True HP.
There's another message in the above example, besides the average THP to DJHP conversion factor -It's up to the more experienced reader to figure it out.

Chassis dyne HP
What is it? What to call it?

EC997 = "True HP"
Dynojet = "DJHP"
It's not really proper to call "djhp" "rwhp", as neither the EC997, dynojet, Fuchs, Superflow or Land and Sea will necessarily produce the same numbers as a dj dyno, except by luck - and the whole idea of True HP is that EVERY dyno manufacturer HAS the capability to provide those numbers!

The Superflow chassis dynes, the EC997's, Land and Sea and Mustangs are all capable of measuring power in steady state mode and producing the same numbers - they can all measure: torque x rpm / 5252 = horsepower
We've not diddled with physics!

The only factor that is added to the measured reading, in True HP Mode, is the additional energy (dyne parasitics) required to spin the dyno roller to whatever speed the roller is turning at - logical, proper and required for any measuring instrument,

torque x rpm / 5252 = horsepower + parasitic power = True HP
We've not diddled with physics and joined a power "puff" derby.

Whether they provide a number that is comparable to other dynes (like Factory Pro did), or not, is completely up to the manufacturer - some like to squirrel away their "puff factors" and some actually "lost" their source code and made up new ones that were 2% higher than the old DOS ones.

Chassis dyne HP - Intertia
What can inflate HP readings on an inertia dyno, but not really make more engine power in the real world?

A few things can affect HP when using inertia dynos (not a dyne in Steady State Mode) to measure power (what else would you do??:-):

Changing to a light, worn stock rear tire will improve power output on an inertia dyno, but, not improve real world top speed.

A heavier (brand new race) tire that replaced the above, light, worn tire, will decrease measured power on an inertia dyno, but not decrease real world top speed.

Lighter wheels are a good thing!
Better acc. in lower gears, esp. 1st and 2nd (accelerating less inertial mass!).
Better suspension is possible, too!
Flicks from side to side easier and hence, quicker in the "esses".
Riding hard on worn, light tires is foolish.

Problems with Inertia dyno test procedure and fuel injected vehicles:

A Sweep Test (hold throttle wide open and sweep from low rpm to high rpm) will often trigger the ACC. FUEL Map, along with the Main FUEL Map, causing the dyno operator to to lean out the main fuel map to compensate for the additional fuel the ACC. FUEL Map delivers. Of course, in the real world, upper gears, the acceleration rate of the engine is much slower than what they tested, doesn't trigger the ACC FUEL Map, and the bike ends up a lot leaner in reality in top gear.
It's not that common of a problem, since most people never ride that fast for that long to cause engine damage - but, the manufacturers will find out soon enough about that.

Work around:
Tune full throttle fueling in real world usage at dragstrip (to best trap speed) or in Steady State Mode on different dyno.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 12:37:49 PM: Chassis dyne HP
How can a bike with 132 djhp race and lead with bikes with 141 djhp at Daytona?

You can optimize tuning for a dj dyno and make big numbers - and you can tune the bike to make best power under load on an EC997 and blow off the big dj dyno numbers - That's what that happened at Daytona a couple of years ago...
132 djhp Jimmy Moore gsxr750 (115-116 True HP) lead Daytona CCS over 141djhp Team Suzuki's gsxr??? and Zlock Racing's ZX9 -
How? It's impossible to spot competitors 8 real hp and lead the last few laps until the drafting battle at the line on the last lap!
The answer is obvious (no - Jimmy's bike was legal - we didn't need to limit the power on it.... It was an end of the year experiment that went awry....)
The answer is obvious (read above rantings :-) and is just another example of non-real world power figures.

Can a tuner cheat and make an EC997 read higher?

The only way that could happen is in a Sweep Test - Sweep Tests are the least reliable of all tests. Period. Ours or others. There is NO question about that.
Since the Rotating Mass is a variable in a Sweep Test (but NOT a Steady State Test! - where it's not a factor), the actual inertia factor entered affects the final HP figure - - Tell the software that the vehicle has a lot of rotating mass to accelerate, and the HP number increases. (torque, rpm, acc. rate and mass are the factors) - just like dj dyno ignoring the difference in mass of all bikes -

So - True HP, again -
Steady State Test - No acceleration, mass makes no difference, anymore. Torque, RPM and dyne parasitics. Period. True.

Can you make a Steady State Test (normal EC997 mode) read higher?
I can squeak, maybe, 1/2 to 1 HP extra out of an rpm point, at the most. I was curious (big surprise??) and I tried and tried - 1/2 to 1 True HP. That's about it. And that's pretty hard and you have to consciously try hard to do it - and you have to know how to do it -
The software will NOT take data unless speed and load are completely stable - eliminating cheating (the accuracy is hard coded into the program, so it can't be diddled with!)
As far as other dynos - and being able to make "flash readings" - that's now, ancient history on most newer dynes. Our dynes have always factored a base inertial mass factor to prevent "overloading" and resulting high hp "flash" readings - even in the Steady State Test.
I think that that's more possible in older manual controlled systems that happen to be water brake type engine dynos, but, I can't really talk much about them because I do not have recent firsthand experience.

As far as atmospheric conditions making a +/- 10% difference? Unless you really(!!!) mess with the barometric pressure (and you can look at every atmospheric factor on every test report sheet - it's hard coded to display - not an "option" to display, it is simply, absolutely impossible to do without obvious evidence.

Some dynamometers will actually display "actual HP" and not specify that it is "uncorrected" to standard air ("SAE Corrected", for example) - A STD HP shouldn't ever be given to a customer - The customer probably doesn't know that "actual" means "uncorrected" and that the results can't be compared to anybody else's dyno chart - I was just reading some UK dyno operator explaining on a cbr600rr forum that "STD" hp was some sort of recognized "standard"... (April, 2006). It's not a standard hp number - it's the actual amount of power the bike made THAT day with that temp, baro pressure and humidity. You can't compare it with any other day and different atmospheric conditions. Period. It's a pretty useless chart for comparison purposes. The only time anybody gives an "STD" hp chart is if he's trying to make the power look bigger than another test with different atmospheric conditions.

I saw a recent South Bay (San Francisco south bay) chart reading "Actual HP" instead of "SAE Corrected" HP - The dynojet "tuning center" had just installed an undercut transmission on a gsxr1000 and had somehow lost 10-15 djhp - They gave the customer a chart displaying "Actual HP" because it was 3-4 djhp higher than "SAE Corrected" - to try to hide some assembly error - They denied all responsibility......... They should have just figured it out and I never would have had their customer at my door telling me the story -
The moral? Sometimes the cheapest isn't the best deal - or an honest deal either -
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 12:38:15 PM: Are final tuning optimal dyno settings different on an Inertia dyno vs. an EC997
For many reasons, final tune settings are different - and, since the EC997 does Sweep and Steady State horsepower testing, we have a choice of tests - from a dj style Sweep Test to Steady State.
Having a choice of those types of tests to do - and having been, firsthand, involved in all sorts of racing - AFM, AMA (250 GP #1,#2,#3,#4), WERA, CCS, Formula USA (750 National Champ and 6 USA Track records!) road racing, drag racing, MX, Speedway, dirttrack, scooter - we have had the opportunity to verify the results of different types of tests and their relevance to the real world operation -
Without a doubt - the Steady State test Mode is the most consistently superior method of tuning - anybody who has the capability to do it will echo that sentiment - it's only an arguable point with those who can't do it properly.
One of the reasons why the EC997 provide settings that work better in the real world is that combustion chamber temperatures are more in line with the actual operating temperatures that the engine - Tests done by Champion Spark Plugs at 4&6 Cycle, Chicago area, provided information that combustion chamber / spark plug temps, on a a common inertia dyne were 300f to 400f LOWER than the real world and the EC997 Steady State Test Mode - Nobody should ignore that - that means ignition timing AND fuel are incorrect when set at sub normal temps - too rich and too advanced is not un common error. (unless you are tuning FI - then it can be either too lean or rich)
On a TZ250? A dj dyno indicated that 3.1mm btdc was optimal ignition timing for best power - and the EC997 indicated 2.6mm btdc - if you knew gp bikes (or even rd350's like me!) that's a HUGE difference!
How much different? About 6 to 7 hp improvement on the EC997 at 2.6mm - and the bike, now, "ripped" on the track instead of droning in sorry misery - it lost a bunch of power on the dj dyno, but, who cared anymore, the EC997 said that the bike was better and the track performance verified it. The only dissenting opinion was the inertia dyne test results.
Given an open mind, desire and equipment, one could make up their own mind -
As for me? I've been here and I've been there - And I like "here" a LOT better!
If I had to resort to sweep tests, only, I'd quit this line of work (boy - would some people be happy!)

Final statement - "It's not important which dyno you use - it's only the amount of power improvement that's important." has never been said by a qualified tuner who has the ability to use modern designed dyno systems and verify results on the track.
Never.

"True HP" vs. "False HP"
"True HP" is a term that signified that the rear wheel horsepower figure was derived from the actual power delivered to the drive roller - nothing added (except normal dyne system parasitic drag).
If some other dynamometer company provides HP figures that will conform to that, they can use the term "True HP". If they don't, then they can't.
Truth in advertising.
If they did, then their dyne systems would at least read the same as another "True HP" dyne system - eliminating a bit more confusion in the industry. (but what would make the internet boring).
Superflow has agreed in principle, so has Mustang and Land and Sea.

Does altitude make any difference at all in HP?
The engine couldn't give 2 hoots at what altitude it is tested at - it only cares what the air pressure, temp and humidity is.
Sea level at 28.02 inches baro is exactly the same as 4000ft/1000 meters at 28.02 inches, as far as the engine is concerned -
When we test at 5000 ft, we get virtually exactly the same power (corrected to atmos. conditions, of course) as we do at sea level - It's just about 24%-25% less on the track and on the EC997 dyno!
I am confused (sometimes, easy to do - but not this time :-) why some dyno manufacturer's insist on putting altitude on their charts and having the dyno operator swear that it's a factor....... Might as well swear that there's some Merlin the Magician reason as to why one should test in 4th gear!!!

Crank HP vs. True Rear Wheel HP
That's a tough one - and LONG....
The short?
Take crank HP, subtract 14.6% (please don't email me and ask - I won't answer - search SAE and old Yamaha), take that, and subtract around 10% to 15% and you'll get about True HP at rear wheel.
The actual formula contains a curve for power loss through gears and there SHOULD be another curve for power lost in a tire (it's the majority of loss on a motorcycle....
Remember, too - that you are only likely to get a crank number from the manufacturer and that's probably a "good" one that the marketing department is providing... (sound of blowing up a marketing and sales balloon? :-) That's not everybody - but it has happened - leaving names out! :-)
When someone gets engineering data from engineering...... give me a call - :-)

What TEST would you suggest that I ask for when I Go to a Factory Pro Dyno Center?
Ask for the Steady State data, base and final tests - that has the 4 Gas EGA information and you can see the gas differences and how it relates to True HP - and you get the True HP numbers -
Some EC997 operators who are afraid that the information is too confusing and just give the owner the Quick Sweep (rough dj simulation) to keep - Get the True information - we can always work with that here, at 800 869-0497. Marc
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 12:38:58 PM: Hmmm, prolly more than ya asked for, huh? ::) ;D ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 12, 2008, 06:28:17 PM: Wow, I'm confused..... Much to absorb.... I will chew on it....

Great time at Ed's; and, Tex and I ordered up some of the best GUMBO I've had at a local restaurant after the tune.

I stayed at the Radisson, and had the ride trailered and parked within 50 foot of the front door. Well some Jack-off busted out the driver side window in the night, probably looking for Silver's key fob.... Luckily I had it up in the room.

Just got home. Took some extra time with the open window and glass issue, but will survive. Bad part is, I didn't get a chance to ride this afternoon. Got in later than I planned and it rained the last hour home.

I am confused bout the torque issue. All my past tunes have been Dyno-Jet. Ed's is a Dyno-Star. Those I have dealt with in the past have always insisted that dynos measure torque and that HP is a calculated figure. So how does a Dyno-star read higher torque values than a Dyno-Jet. Or... does it?? If so which is the most accurate value.

The primary changes to the bike were:
1) Removed the cat
2) Installed the Fullsac 2" baffles
3) installed Heavy Breather
4) Installed SE Spark Plugs
5) Good Dyno-Star tune using Super SERT

Here's the chart before and after the tune:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 12, 2008, 06:39:16 PM: After tune:

95.1 HP @4740rpm
128 ft-lbs @2750rpm

I am sure a Dyno-Jet would not rate the Tq this high. Is there some correction factor to apply ??

Ed, any comments?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Jim Kerr on October 12, 2008, 06:42:45 PM: Looks like your tuner did a good job. I wouldn't get too caught up in the numbers. The key is using the same equipment and getting better results than when you started. Driving it will tell the tell.

I've ridden mine quite a bit this weekend. The engine is getting better. I can tell a difference in performance as the parts break in. I bet It is doing better than my last dyno run. I raced 15 or so crotch rockets today down Lakeshore drive and they couldn't catch me. I'm couldn't be more pleased with the performance of this bike.

:orange:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 12, 2008, 06:54:34 PM: Yes agree, the diff (before and after) is more than just noticeable. Very happy with the results.

I would like to have an understanding bout the dynos though, maybe it's just a personal thing. But, I would like to know what is what, so I can compare apples to apples with friends doing the same mod.s
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 07:11:27 PM: Classic 255, drop like lead sfter 3500, cam profile. Now throw some 251's in and see how nice she'll run! :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 12, 2008, 07:12:27 PM: I was very impressed with Ed's work.

The idle was way lean... fixed it.

He took all that slack out of the throttle. It's no longer sloppy. I didn't know the throttle responce could be programed. Now it acts more like a throttle "cable", with out the grip effort to twist it. Really cool.

I jumped on it pretty hard after the tune, and it's got more guts no doubt... How much? Well, I'll find out.

He worked with the ride for about 3 hours. When I arrived, he already had started a map, based on his past experience. He puts a bunch of time in this, more than I realized. The Race Tuner obviously requires more tune time on the Dyno, than a Power Commander.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 12, 2008, 07:15:59 PM: Quote from: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 07:11:27 PM
Classic 255, drop like lead sfter 3500, cam profile. Now throw some 251's in and see how nice she'll run! :2vrolijk_21:

Hoist! 8)

And what else will I need to go with em..... ?? The stock market's tellin me "nothin" no extra's just the cams. :-*
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 07:27:37 PM: Quote from: Iglide on October 12, 2008, 07:15:59 PM

And what else will I need to go with em..... ?? The stock market's tellin me "nothin" no extra's just the cams. :-*

You have the 50mm TB. All you'll need is cams, pushrods and gaskets. If ya want, do some head porting. But they'll work OK boltin on a 110! ;)

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Texas 103 on October 12, 2008, 07:49:11 PM: Quote from: Hoist! on October 12, 2008, 12:38:58 PM
Hmmm, prolly more than ya asked for, huh? ::) ;D ;)

Hoist! 8)

No not at all....Good stuff...Time for some homework
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on October 13, 2008, 07:43:59 AM: Quote from: Iglide on October 12, 2008, 07:12:27 PM

The idle was way lean... fixed it.

He took all that slack out of the throttle. It's no longer sloppy. I didn't know the throttle responce could be programed. Now it acts more like a throttle "cable", with out the grip effort to twist it. Really cool.

I am not surprized at idle being way lean.

Was the throttle responce calibrated or adjusted with the Super SERT?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 13, 2008, 08:07:09 AM: Adjusted with the SERT, there is a table in the Ver 2 software for that function.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: eddfive on October 13, 2008, 10:54:08 AM: Yes, I have DynaStar Dyno. The main reason I can run any length bike on it from sporsters to full choppers and everything in between. My DynaStar Dyno has an integrated Strain gauge for actual Torque readings. While I am running the dyno my machine will give you live HP/TQ values no matter what gear and what speed. It is continually updating and displaying. I run every WOT run in 4th gear SAE. All bikes are tightened down to the same force pressure. The exception would be the monster motors where I do not want the rear tire to spin on the drum. I set up everything as close to the same as I can for consitency from Bike to Bike. Dyno's have to be calibrated periodically and the weather station along with this calibration is key to consistent numbers. You can change the output numbers by "fudging" any of the calibration numbers. I try to keep everything the same and consistent to know calibration standards.

I really do not care that much about final numbers as long as I start with a baseline and what I end up with has shown improvement. I have yet to tune a bike that did not improve number wise. This goes for stock bikes dealer delivered to the monster custom bikes. The biggest satisfaction for me is the rideability/driveability of the bike when I am done. HP/TQ numbers show the improvement but all my customers will feel it in the seat of their pants and all say it is much smoother through the entire RPM band.

There is method of tuning that is important for people to understand. Step testing is one method. I prefer to tune a bike more similar to how it will be ridden. I hold and test at every throttle site through the RPM range which is a little different than going in some programmed RPM step and stopping and holding to get data. I have done a lot of bikes this way and it has proven to work very well.

With the price of gas these days I am always being asked to de-tune or tune the bike for best mileage maybe giving up some performance. If a bike is tuned properly, it will be at its peak efficiency(highest Torque) throughout the entire RPM band. I believe you can have best performance and still get good gas mileage. There really is no compromise of anything if the tuning is done correctly. This is not only AFR/fuel, this encompasses the entire range of tables that can be adjusted. Cranking fuel, warmup fuel, front and rear ignition, accel/decel etc.etc.. They all have to be adjusted to what the bike wants for best efficiency. THERE ARE NO 2 BIKES EXACTLY THE SAME.

Thanks for reading and I will say this is not intended to bash any other dyno or any other techniques, this is the way I was trained and the way that has produced excellent results. I am sure my customers will tell me if I did not get something right.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: planenut on October 13, 2008, 12:02:09 PM: hi iglide,

great #s from a killer tune let us know how the ride is :2vrolijk_21:

Jon
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 13, 2008, 06:09:55 PM: Eddfive,

If a DnyoJet does not have an integrated Strain gauge, how does it measure torque?

I thought all dynos measured torque and calculated HP, right or wrong?

Guess I just need some education on this subject.... The "Readers Digest" version will suffice.

And yes "seat of the pants" is a measure; but, at the end of the day, it's how many ft/lbs of torque do you get per $.
So, in that respect numbers, accurate numbers are important to me.

My Levi's just can't give me that info. That's part of the reason I pay for a dyno, right?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: eddfive on October 14, 2008, 09:32:39 AM: The standard offering from DJ ia a speed control dyno(no load brake). An option on a Dj is a load cell(strain gauge or some method of measuring Torque and a brake). The DJ models have just one trigger for drum speed, my Dynastar has four(will be more accurrate and stable) another manufacturer, DynaPro, has 16 triggers(even more accurate and stable). horsepower = torque * rpm / 5252.
So I know the weight of the drum, under a load the strain gauge gives a value, the drum has the optical triggers to calculate speed, and we are using an RPM pickup for RPM. On DynaStar, Torque is measured and HP is calculated from the collected infomation off of the drum. What you paid for was a tuned motorcycle that is smooth through the RPM range and when you go WOT will get you all that it has. That is the reason for running the baseline before tune and then a final after tune. That number increase is part of what you paid for but a bike with great driveability/rideability is what you will be most happy with. You can see from the dyno chart what the increase in HP and TQ was regardless of the final numbers. The real question is how many DJ's out there have the load cell option? You watched my method of tuning and I could not do that without a load cell and eddy current brake. I have not run or looked closely at a DJ. DJ is the motorcycle industry standard. When I was researching Dynos I looked at them all and I chose the one I have based on features, capability and end results of tuning. The tune on a non-load cell dyno will not be near as good as on a dyno with a load cell. I try and tune to an overall quality level on each and every bike and I can get there with my DynaStar. I believe the numbers from my DynaStar to be accurate, but as I said earlier there is a lot of calibration and consistency that has to be done to maintain that accuracy.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 14, 2008, 01:26:29 PM: OK ED,

Thanks for the info. The bike runs fantastic, and I appreciate your being open on the weekends. Your generous and flexible hours, allowed me get the ride to ya for a GREAT tune. Appreciate that.

Sounds as though there is a lot to know about the dyno business. And with the current lack of standardization, a given bike could produce 3 differant sets of results on 3 differant dynos. Interesting...

Best bet is to return to the same dyno, if monitoring results from ongoing upgrades.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: sblair on October 23, 2008, 11:40:56 PM: Thought I would get this all in 1 thread. Post your Dyno numbers on your SERG along with the basics to get there. Dont have to post the graph.
I had mine dyno'd today. Was hoping to get a little more. With the canned map, it was rich below 2500 and then went lean past that. 87hp and 105lb torque
after:
91 hp
111 lb torque at the wheel
and its rich 1000-1800 then perfect fuel/air the rest of the power band.

Heavy Breather, Fullsac baffles, Super tuner, cat removed, triple plat plugs, SE wires.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 24, 2008, 12:01:14 AM: I would appreciate seeing the type, manufac, Dyno and the core sizes added.
Thanks
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: sblair on October 24, 2008, 01:39:47 PM: Ahhh, lets see, not really sure type dyno but here goes:

DYNOJET using WINPEP 7
1 3/4" Fullsac baffles
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 24, 2008, 10:12:34 PM: OK,

Tomorrow I will ride the Glide down to Lubbock (weather permitting) and Wild West will put it on a Dynojet. I would expect HP numbers to be close to the DynoStar numbers. However; I believe the TQ numbers will be lower than the numbers I have previously posted for the DynoStar I ran a week or two ago.

The primary changes to the bike were:
1) Removed the cat
2) Installed the Fullsac 2" baffles
3) installed Heavy Breather
4) Installed SE Spark Plugs
5) Good Dyno-Star tune using Super SERT

For now:

Dyno Star:
95.1 hp @ 4740 rpm
128 ft/lbs @ 2750 rpm

Today's results (10-25-08), from the DynoJet at the HD dealer in Lubbock,Texas..

Dyno Jet:
90 max hp
107 max ft/lbs

37 mpg today, on the ride home (150 miles)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: partycrasher on October 25, 2008, 04:39:45 PM: it would also be helpful if the dyno showed the Air/fuel line as well as letting us know if it is SAE. much appreciated.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: sblair on October 25, 2008, 10:17:56 PM: My dynojet sheet showed the air/fuel for the 1st run and last run. Big difference! It was running below 12 up to 2500 rpm and then went immediately lean 13.5 till 4300 rpm then back to the rich side. Base line is 13. Final run dips to 12 between 1500-2000 rpm and then pretty much baselines at 13 rest of the rpm scale.
What is SAE?????
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Hoist! on October 25, 2008, 10:20:06 PM: Quote from: Iglide on October 24, 2008, 10:12:34 PM
OK,

Tomorrow I will ride the Glide down to Lubbock (weather permitting) and Wild West will put it on a Dynojet. I would expect HP numbers to be close to the DynoStar numbers. However; I believe the TQ numbers will be lower than the numbers I have previously posted for the DynoStar I ran a week or two ago.

The primary changes to the bike were:
1) Removed the cat
2) Installed the Fullsac 2" baffles
3) installed Heavy Breather
4) Installed SE Spark Plugs
5) Good Dyno-Star tune using Super SERT

For now:

Dyno Star:
95.1 hp @ 4740 rpm
128 ft/lbs @ 2750 rpm

Dyno Jet:
90 hp
107 ft/lbs

37 mpg

Stock motor w/Stage I, no friggin way! Get that torquemeter recalibrated!!! :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:

Hoist! 8)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Iglide on October 25, 2008, 10:24:24 PM: DITTO BRO !

:-\

Obviously these numbers don't mean much, attributable to the fact that there are no real compliance "standards" or "testing measures" required in order that comparisons can be made.

How unfortunate, I had hoped that the industry was a little further along than this, but "It is what it is". GUMBO!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: skyhook on October 26, 2008, 07:23:32 PM: of all the forums I frequent, IMO this is the dyno reporting concensus: on '07 and later h-d's, 5th gear sae on a dynojet 250i on pump gas...be transparent and if it's a different dyno manufacturer or model, disclose...give run conditions(temperature, barometer, date, etc)...if all these things are given, we ALMOST have a level playing field...that said it's best to look at similar builds with repeatable numbers, not the highest or lowest example, run, etc...and finally dynos are intended for tuning, not bragging rights...rant over
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: partycrasher on October 27, 2008, 08:05:10 AM: show air/fuel line as well.......
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: GregKhougaz on November 04, 2008, 04:24:57 PM: Hi to all. Finally got my heavy breather delivered and installed it last night. Just back from the HD dealer and dynojet. They used the SERT but claim to have some way of keeping it from HD. I now have a computer "Key" w/ the software. Starting numbers with mods but pre tune were 85.02 hp and 99.74 torque. Final numbers: 89.07 hp and 109.22 torque. These starting numbers were not "stock" but with:

Drilled out CC
Installed: 2" fulsac cores
SE Plugs
HD heavy breather

The curves were good with a lot of usable power from 2K rpm's to 5500 where the starting numbers really fell off after 4500. I was very lean to start with an A/F above 14 through out the rev range. Now, I'm right about 13.9 - 14.1 and it richens as the rpm's rise. The tech is supposed to e mail the print outs to me and I'll post when he does. Should be running much cooler now. It's a cool day here so it's hard to tell but I think so. It sure feels better! Mod on!

GK
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Talon on November 04, 2008, 04:34:54 PM: Like was mentioned above, if you guys start compairing tunes, you should also include you SAE correction numbers, these will make a big difference in the TQ/HP numbers.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: wts on January 12, 2009, 09:05:29 PM: 09 SERG
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: LETS_ROLL on January 13, 2009, 07:30:54 PM: wow, nice. all that out of the 110? Let's Roll
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: HDDOCFL on January 17, 2009, 10:38:51 AM: Anyone have a dyno run with just a baffle change on a 09 110"? Thanks Doc
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Highjagger on January 18, 2009, 03:50:23 AM: As we can see at WTS`s dyno the AFR is nearly constant at 13 and that brings him the good result .
I want to compare it to my Thundermax closed loop autotuned 2007 Fatboy which autotuned to the same AFR 13 level as shown above and was running very very well .
What i want to say is :
The Thundermax closed loop autotune seems to be a very good ECM-replacement-option and i am convinced that the tune of it can win the battle against all other tuning hard.-and soft.-ware which is available , and saves all the dynoruns because of the self autotune module work .
When i have to decide sometimes in the future , then i will surely prefer the thundermax again , i guess .
but i am not a specialist for dynoruns at all and tht thundermax will do the work for me in a good way .
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Godeater on January 18, 2009, 04:21:03 AM: We have removed more Thundermax's then installed. Usually its a throttle responce issue, they seem slow and they feel slow when you twist it hard and fast. The dyno proves that out when you look at the runs in time rather then rpm or speed. Other issues are decel popping really bad with no solution, which brings me to the one that will piss off the most even temper biker, the total lack of any form of support from Zippers. Just what we have seen at our little shop.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Highjagger on January 18, 2009, 07:04:47 AM: That`s very interesting to hear about , but as i said , i am not really a specialist and only know that mine was running very well but if this was a optimum i don`t know . Maybe a tuner-specialist makes it better than the Thundermax ( when i read your statement than it has to be in this way ). here in germany i guess there are not those specialist for dynoruns like you have in the US , just childs in comparison to yours perhaps .
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: wts on January 18, 2009, 07:54:46 AM: I think the new power commander has a self tune module as a option ... don't have it yet but probably will

wts
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Highjagger on January 18, 2009, 08:49:59 AM: I saw this autotune module for the powercommander on their website , but wondered because noone talked about yet .

Is it the same base as the thundermax working , with the wideband lambdas ?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Talon on January 18, 2009, 12:00:52 PM: One problem with the auto tune devices is it only can tune the cells that are in the closed loop mode. You still need to do something about the areas that don't get covered by the auto tune mode.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Highjagger on January 18, 2009, 01:29:19 PM: And which ones are those ?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: NW_FLSTRSE3_2009 on January 19, 2009, 10:17:07 AM: Quote from: wts on January 12, 2009, 09:05:29 PM

09 SERG

OK I am confused... After all I traded in my carbed 2006 Springer Softail with a Big Bore Kit that was dyno tuned at 87 hp and 93 tq. for a 09 SERG. Am I really seeing such a great difference in these numbers? Before I start spending, which looks like I will need to I need to know a few things...

I would like to know what the consitant stock numbers are...
I need to know if you remove the CC can you replace it if needed?
What is the best exhaust system for some deep loudER sound and
Better power and tq numbers
Will I need a SERT
Will I need new cams

Thanks from a newbie
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: The Bolvine Gigolo! on January 19, 2009, 11:00:18 AM: Why! don't you guy's that have the new SERG already do what I'm doing just wait for an other month or so! I have over four thousand miles everything still stock, Oh! alittle chrome bling but AK and I are waiting on pipes and tuner's until the Big builders and after market guy's come out with all there different pipes and mufflers. Then you'll have afew different options, other then sounding like a sewing machine the bike runs good. I can live with that until.
Just my .02cents keep the change.............. :nixweiss:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: NW_FLSTRSE3_2009 on January 19, 2009, 11:26:23 AM: Quote from: iselbulls on January 19, 2009, 11:00:18 AM
Why! don't you guy's that have the new SERG already do what I'm doing just wait for an other month or so! I have over four thousand miles everything still stock, Oh! alittle chrome bling but AK and I are waiting on pipes and tuner's until the Big builders and after market guy's come out with all there different pipes and mufflers. Then you'll have afew different options, other then sounding like a sewing machine the bike runs good. I can live with that until.
Just my .02cents keep the change.............. :nixweiss:

I cant agree more! I plan on waiting, I am only requesting information in order to make an informed modification. I am not an experienced mechanic and do not have the theories and principles experience of engines exhaust etc. that many do here, so I am learning. I know what I want for sound, look and feel on the bike I just don't know how to get there yet.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Talon on January 19, 2009, 11:32:46 AM: Quote from: Highjagger on January 18, 2009, 01:29:19 PM
And which ones are those ?

You'd have to load some software from one of the closed loop systems to really look at the maps. The closed loops cells usually are in red, the "closed loop" feature is only active during cruise and idle which will not help changes affecting WOT.
Most closed loop systems require base mapping to be within 80% of the correct values required with the closed loop portion then fine tuning the remaining 20%. Wide band O2's may offer more range and with software able to dynamically recalibrate as the sensors shift mapping the ranging problem is less of an issue (just takes more time for the computer to fully map/learn the new values under all conditions.

Here's a map I found on the TTS site to show the cells in closed loop.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Highjagger on January 19, 2009, 12:51:42 PM: But don`t you think that the autotune modules are a good alternative for people who have not the knowledge to tune a bike ?
I think it`s a better solution than going to a tuner that robbs your bucks and spend hours for dynoruns everytime you change your bike-configuration .
When you are able to do it on your own or when you have a good friend or tuner that earns your trust than you i agree with you and you are right . no problem .
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Talon on January 19, 2009, 01:07:35 PM: Quote from: Highjagger on January 19, 2009, 12:51:42 PM
But don`t you think that the autotune modules are a good alternative for people who have not the knowledge to tune a bike ?
I think it`s a better solution than going to a tuner that robbs your bucks and spend hours for dynoruns everytime you change your bike-configuration .
When you are able to do it on your own or when you have a good friend or tuner that earns your trust than you i agree with you and you are right . no problem .

I guess it depends, what you do to your bike. If your just adding pipes and an AC, I'd think twice before spending $300-$400 dollars on a tune. If I did the full ride, cams, heads, pistons, I'd spend the extra money on a dyno tune.

I added pipes and AC to my bike, and downloaded a canned map to my PCIII. It ran fine, but wasn't sure how well the map matched. A local shop had a special, $25 dyno pulls, so I rode my bike there 30 miles, so it was warm, he loaded it on right away, did a pull, most cells and AFR were pretty good except two spots. He said for $50 more he'd put it back on the dyno and change those two areas. So for $75 I got it pretty close, not as good as a full dyno tune, but runs pretty well.
Was going to do the works this winter, but because of uncertainty with work status, I'm holding off! :'( But when I do I will do a full dyno tune.
If you work with someone that knows their stuff and a canned map that's close, you could probably smooth in the cells not covered by closed loop tuning, just wanted to say that the "Auto Tune" is not just a plug in and let it go process, and if you can't find a close map to your setup you can still have a bad running bike, Just my thoughts.

Craig
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Highjagger on January 19, 2009, 01:15:13 PM: maybe you are right , i found a good map for my 96cui but will i also find one for the SERG ? Maybe not ? Thinking about ?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Texas 103 on January 22, 2009, 06:18:13 PM: Quote from: HDDOCFL on January 17, 2009, 10:38:51 AM
Anyone have a dyno run with just a baffle change on a 09 110"? Thanks Doc

Doc,

Call Steve at Fullsac...
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: jfh on January 22, 2009, 07:42:41 PM: Quote from: Talon on January 18, 2009, 12:00:52 PM
One problem with the auto tune devices is it only can tune the cells that are in the closed loop mode. You still need to do something about the areas that don't get covered by the auto tune mode.

The ThunderMax with Auto-tune incorporates wide-band O2 sensors and incorporates all cells into the closed loop auto tuning. Very different than modifying the stock ECM values when in the limited range of the factory's closed loop management.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Beemer on January 22, 2009, 09:55:47 PM: hdfr120,
Awesome pic of your bike...too small...please post on below thread, we'd like to see it in detail.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=30876.0
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: jfh on January 24, 2009, 01:59:33 PM: Quote from: 61bbltop on January 22, 2009, 09:55:47 PM
hdfr120,
Awesome pic of your bike...too small...please post on below thread, we'd like to see it in detail.

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=30876.0

Thanks. Posted pic on other thread.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: twmartin1970 on February 25, 2009, 04:57:24 PM: Installed the Vance and Hines Power Duals, Fullsac 2.25 baffles, Woods TW7H cams, and Power Commander V.

Don't have the printout yet, but should this weekend.

Made 88HP and 107ft-lbs with the fullsac baffles only.
Made 106HP and 118 ft-lbs after cams, exhaust and power commander v with tune.

I think I am going to be very pleased with this setup.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: RickC on February 25, 2009, 05:02:11 PM: 106 ponies & 118 pounds, eh? Them's some respectable numbers, twm... Especially without getting any further into the innards of the motor...

Hmmmm...
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Screamin on March 24, 2009, 09:52:09 PM: 2" Fullsac, 96" stock touring header, SEST. Got mine back to day and was very pleased w/ the improvement. 10 more ponies and 12# tq. Numbers are numbers to me but damination - seat of the pants was just a pizzer. This bike's gonna get me in trouble.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: NW_FLSTRSE3_2009 on March 24, 2009, 10:35:22 PM: Quote from: Screamin on March 24, 2009, 09:52:09 PM
2" Fullsac, 96" stock touring header, SEST. Got mine back to day and was very pleased w/ the improvement. 10 more ponies and 12# tq. Numbers are numbers to me but damination - seat of the pants was just a pizzer. This bike's gonna get me in trouble.

Nice numbers! :)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Bixby on March 25, 2009, 08:54:00 AM: 110 Race Kit, Vance and Hines Power Duals, 2" Fullsac
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: NW_FLSTRSE3_2009 on March 25, 2009, 09:22:12 AM: Quote from: Bixby on March 25, 2009, 08:54:00 AM
110 Race Kit, Vance and Hines Power Duals, 2" Fullsac

Got any Pics of the Power Duals installed? Those nombers look great, how she ride?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: roadglide57 on March 25, 2009, 10:48:52 AM: I was wondering if anyone has just tryed the 96 header pipe with the stock pipes with stock baffles. Would i need to tune
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Dragon42 on March 25, 2009, 11:36:01 AM: Quote from: Bixby on March 25, 2009, 08:54:00 AM
110 Race Kit, Vance and Hines Power Duals, 2" Fullsac

What is the 110 Race Kit, and what did you use to tune it?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: NW_FLSTRSE3_2009 on March 25, 2009, 12:44:50 PM: Quote from: roadglide57 on March 25, 2009, 10:48:52 AM
I was wondering if anyone has just tryed the 96 header pipe with the stock pipes with stock baffles. Would i need to tune

I used a stocker 96 head pipe with 1.75 fulsac cores. I also used the Master tune and a download from Steve. So, I am saying yes.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: shredsurf on March 27, 2009, 12:23:31 PM: My buddy just dyno'ed his 2009 SERG with 357 miles on it.

98 HP @ 117 FP Torque.

Modifications: Power Commander, V&H Classic Slip-ons, Hollowed out CAT's and NO O2 sensors.

Had the electronic dyno speedometer up to 147 mph.

Dyno'ed at: Ivan's Rockland County Mortorcyle Shop, NY
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: shredsurf on March 27, 2009, 12:59:51 PM: My buddy just dyno'ed his 2009 SERG with 357 miles on it.

98 HP @ 117 FP Torque.

Modifications: Power Commander, V&H Classic Slip-ons, Hollowed out CAT's and NO O2 sensors.

Had the electronic dyno speedometer up to 147 mph.

Dyno'ed at: Ivan's Rockland County Mortorcyle Shop, NY
Title: Dyno results
Post by: JP on April 19, 2009, 04:32:57 PM: Got my dyno done on my 09 SERG. 100/hp 121/torque. 2.25 fullsac baffles, SE cone high flow air breather,cat free head pipe and SERT.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: GREY EUGSTER on April 20, 2009, 10:49:05 AM: HEY GUYS,

2009 FLTRSE3,
DRILLED THE CAT, 2.25 FULLSAC BAFFELS, TUNER, STOCK AIR CLEANER AND THE BIKE DYNOED AT 90 HP AND 110 FT LBS TORQUE.

NOT AS GOOD AS MY V-ROD BUT A DIFFERENT RIDE ALTOGETHER.

THE GLIDE FEELS WAAY BETER THAT STOCK. CAMS ARE NEXT.

THANKS,

GREY
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: JP on April 21, 2009, 11:05:28 PM: 1. Does the torque line drop off to fast ?
2. Or does this look good ?
3. Thank`s in advance for your help.
4. Click on pic to enlarge
5. 100 hp 121 torque
6. SAE
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Highjagger on April 22, 2009, 02:36:02 AM: I do not think that this is too lean , you nearly do not reach the AFR 13 , here in germany we have to stay over the 14.7 AFR - this means lean , but yours look good , ( but what do i know , wait till the experts here look at your numbers )
Title: Dyno results on SERG 110
Post by: ragrep on April 22, 2009, 09:19:17 PM: Stock 110 engine: 2" Fullsac baffles- 09-Non-Cat header- PowerCommander PCV, no other mods on the bike:

95.21HP/112.67 FTlbs torque- ( 100+ft;bs @2200rpm)

Unfortunately I didn't do base line run before the 2" baffles install and cat removal to know what the stock numbers were- but its a significant difference in feel. I am pretty satisfied with these numbers- I think most folks probably would be. Thanks to Brian @ BPA in Calhoun GA for a good tune, Fullsac performance for providing a low cost hi performance baffle solution to keep the stock pipes.

I'll have a PC5 map posted on the ECM site in a few days when i get a chance to download it off the bike.
Title: Re: Dyno results on SERG 110
Post by: Fullsac Performance on April 23, 2009, 12:45:18 AM: Quote from: ragrep on April 22, 2009, 09:19:17 PM
Stock 110 engine: 2" Fullsac baffles- 09-Non-Cat header- PowerCommander PCV, no other mods on the bike:

95.21HP/112.67 FTlbs torque- ( 100+ft;bs @2200rpm)

Unfortunately I didn't do base line run before the 2" baffles install and cat removal to know what the stock numbers were- but its a significant difference in feel. I am pretty satisfied with these numbers- I think most folks probably would be. Thanks to Brian @ BPA in Calhoun GA for a good tune, Fullsac performance for providing a low cost hi performance baffle solution to keep the stock pipes.

I'll have a PC5 map posted on the ECM site in a few days when i get a chance to download it off the bike.

Great numbers! Right in line with the ones that I have dynoed.

Steve
Title: Re: Dyno results on SERG 110
Post by: HDDOCFL on April 23, 2009, 06:10:08 AM: Quote from: ragrep on April 22, 2009, 09:19:17 PM
Stock 110 engine: 2" Fullsac baffles- 09-Non-Cat header- PowerCommander PCV, no other mods on the bike:

95.21HP/112.67 FTlbs torque- ( 100+ft;bs @2200rpm)

Unfortunately I didn't do base line run before the 2" baffles install and cat removal to know what the stock numbers were- but its a significant difference in feel. I am pretty satisfied with these numbers- I think most folks probably would be. Thanks to Brian @ BPA in Calhoun GA for a good tune, Fullsac performance for providing a low cost hi performance baffle solution to keep the stock pipes.

I'll have a PC5 map posted on the ECM site in a few days when i get a chance to download it off the bike.

Should have a PCV today, have the same set up as you, would love to get your map before Fri. night, leaving on a trip. Thanks Doc
Title: Re: Dyno results on SERG 110
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on April 23, 2009, 07:00:09 AM: Quote from: Fullsac Perf on April 23, 2009, 12:45:18 AM
Great numbers! Right in line with the ones that I have dynoed.

Steve
Well today I will find out how you're map runs :coolblue:

Got it down loaded to the bike yesterday. Getting the stock pipe welded back together this morning after gutting the cat. Have the 2.25 Fullsac baffels and the Heavy breather.

I can not wait to test with the butt dyno :coolblue:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: sem_bunda on April 27, 2009, 09:06:02 AM: I've heard from a guy I trust that replacing the stock pipes/headers with stock pipes/headers from any of the touring 96 in bikes that it REALLY opens up the bike (don't have specific torque/HP numbers), because there are no cats in those pipes. I may try that on mine.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Guilty on April 27, 2009, 11:43:17 PM: Stock 110 engine, 2.25" Fullsac baffles, drilled the cat, SEST, stock air cleaner:
93.27 Max HP
108.65 Max Torque
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: CR on April 29, 2009, 05:32:33 PM: 2008 CVO (international version) Mods: SEAC, PC V, O2 eliminators, active exhaust valve bypass, standard CC exhaust,AFR 13,2-13,5, no timing alterations:
92,5 HP Torque 142 NM (approx. 105 lbs/ft) 135 mph (on my Zumo, not speedo). What can I gain by getting rid of the CC (or other baffles but I want the bike to remain quiet as it is) and or timing?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: ragrep on April 30, 2009, 09:12:56 AM: you'll gain 5+ HP & 8-10lbs of Torque - +throttle response and cooler running engine by replacing the cat header
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: TN on April 30, 2009, 01:56:02 PM: my ass dyno says my fltrse3 is good.

don't have a clue about numbers, but................nevermind

ride on

TN
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Beemer on May 01, 2009, 05:00:20 PM: Had the bike dyno'd the other day...mainly to get the AFR richer. The tech didn't do or record a run before the canned map install from the SEST. The only performance mods are 2" fullsac baffles and cored cat. Funny how it only spent an hour from initial run to final run. Me thinks he could have tweaked it a little more. I'm still happy with the way the bike runs now. Much smoother and he got the dead spot out of the throttle just off idle. It was done at Chattahoochee HD in Columbus GA.

I told him that I ride two-up and I live in the 2800 to 4500 RPM range and usually cruse at around 2900/3000. In 5th at 3000, I'm doing 70mph...when I roll-on the throttle she really goooooooooooes! Max Hp 90.04 Max Tq 108.05

If you look at the tourque curve, it stays pretty linier through my range. The Hp steadily climbs anddoesn't waiver as well. Cheers Tim, Good Job :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: tlr on May 12, 2009, 11:33:52 AM: well I brought mine in for the 1000 mile service. Svc Manager told me he didn't have any 09 non cvo take off headers but he did have a brand new header from a 110 kit he just installed. He said folks are buying the 110 kit but they are not installing the header that comes with it since it has a cat. Anyway, he cut it open and air chiseled out whole cat. He also made the cut where the original weld was. I showed him pics from here where some folks have cut the header in the middle with a jig. He said that that may weaken the header down the road (not sure but i thought i would pass that along for safety reasons). OK, i also have the 2.25 Fullsac baffles (which I love), RSD heavy breather, SSERT. Numbers off dyno (HD facility) are 96 HP, 118 TQ. I know, lets see the sheet. I don't have it yet. Traveling this week, but I will post upon return. I think that these are respectable. Thank you all for paving the way for me and may more like me. I don't have a clue, but know a good idea when I steal, er I mean see one. Peace and be safe.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: CarlD1965 on May 15, 2009, 05:37:50 PM: I have just picked up my '09 FLTRSE3 CVO Road Glide from Cowboy Harley Austin Texas, after a Dynojet tuneup.

Stock Engine.
Heavy Breather
SERT
2 1/4 Fullsac Baffles
Header Pipes from non SE 09 tourer (No CAT)

Max Power 90.58
Max Torque 108.68

Stock numbers were:-
Max Power 81.05
Max Torque 91.88

Regards
Carl
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Blue Serg 57 on May 15, 2009, 09:57:07 PM: So much is in the tranny. FLTRSEI2's first gear is 10.8 to 1, yours is either 9.5 or 9.7 to 1. the FLTRSEI2 makes more rear wheel power then the FLTRSE3 for the first 3 gears then falls behind
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: tlr on May 18, 2009, 09:18:05 AM: Here is a pic of my sheet. Can someone please taka a look and tell me if this looks good or not. My mods are:

total removal of CAT
Fullsac 2.25
RSD Heavy Breather
SSERT

Thanks
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Twolanerider on May 18, 2009, 12:20:09 PM: 100 ft pds of torque by 2700 or so. 100 to 115 throughout the cruising range. Should pass a vehicle smartly when the need arises and be fun to ride. Nice flat AFR. Congrats :2vrolijk_21: .
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: BigLew on May 18, 2009, 03:27:54 PM: Do the heavy breathers really help compared to the stock on the SERG?? If so how much?

:orange: :orange:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: tlr on May 18, 2009, 04:09:58 PM: Quote from: Twolanerider on May 18, 2009, 12:20:09 PM
100 ft pds of torque by 2700 or so. 100 to 115 throughout the cruising range. Should pass a vehicle smartly when the need arises and be fun to ride. Nice flat AFR. Congrats :2vrolijk_21: .

Thanks for that. I appreciate the response.
Title: dyno results
Post by: screamin09 on May 18, 2009, 05:40:01 PM: well i finally got 1,000 miles on the new scoot, brought it in for the check up and had them put on the se race tuner. i'm running 2.25" fulsac muffs, header pipe off 09 street glide and the numbers are 90.20 h.p and 109 torque peak power hitting about 3200 rpm and dropping off at 5000 rpm, i would like to be at 100 + hp but i'm sure i will have to open the wallet.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Indenial on May 18, 2009, 06:05:49 PM: Let me know how far you have to open it. I have a similar setup and would like 100 HP too.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Silver Streak on May 29, 2009, 10:35:01 AM: Stock engine
Non cat header
stage 1 factory breather
Cobra Mufflers Straight cut with billet tip
TTS tuner

91 HP
104 Torque
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 2009FLTRSE3 on May 29, 2009, 10:01:56 PM: Quote from: tlr on May 18, 2009, 09:18:05 AM
Here is a pic of my sheet. Can someone please taka a look and tell me if this looks good or not. My mods are:

total removal of CAT
Fullsac 2.25
RSD Heavy Breather
SSERT

Thanks

Ok Stupid question time: what is SSERT, and do you know how many decibels you Fullsac pipes are, would you say they are louder than Rhienhearts.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Texas 103 on May 30, 2009, 07:06:52 AM: Quote from: tlr on May 12, 2009, 11:33:52 AM
well I brought mine in for the 1000 mile service. Svc Manager told me he didn't have any 09 non cvo take off headers but he did have a brand new header from a 110 kit he just installed. He said folks are buying the 110 kit but they are not installing the header that comes with it since it has a cat. Anyway, he cut it open and air chiseled out whole cat. He also made the cut where the original weld was. I showed him pics from here where some folks have cut the header in the middle with a jig. He said that that may weaken the header down the road (not sure but i thought i would pass that along for safety reasons). OK, i also have the 2.25 Fullsac baffles (which I love), RSD heavy breather, SSERT. Numbers off dyno (HD facility) are 96 HP, 118 TQ. I know, lets see the sheet. I don't have it yet. Traveling this week, but I will post upon return. I think that these are respectable. Thank you all for paving the way for me and may more like me. I don't have a clue, but know a good idea when I steal, er I mean see one. Peace and be safe.

Exactly what i did..cut the pipe at the end, welded it there so you really can't tell if anything has been done...just in case ... 118 over 95.5..Damn what a fun ride....
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on May 30, 2009, 12:52:02 PM: Quote from: 2009FLTRSE3 on May 29, 2009, 10:01:56 PM
Ok Stupid question time: what is SSERT, and do you know how many decibels you Fullsac pipes are, would you say they are louder than Rhienhearts.
They are quiter in than the Bub 7. I have heard the Bub 7's on a SERG, and I have the 2.25 fullsac on mine SERG. The fullsacs are a little deeper tone.

I think the Bub 7 sound much better than the rhinehart, deeper and not as loud
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: tlr on May 30, 2009, 09:03:38 PM: Quote from: 2009FLTRSE3 on May 29, 2009, 10:01:56 PM
Ok Stupid question time: what is SSERT, and do you know how many decibels you Fullsac pipes are, would you say they are louder than Rhienhearts.

SSERT is the Super SERT that HD came out with this year. It replaced the SERT. I have had the Rineharts previously and the Fullsacs are not louder, they are deeper however. I like them very much as do many others here.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: albert1 on June 08, 2009, 08:58:22 AM: hi there, this mornign i've had a launch with my serg 09 on a dyno considering thayt the bike ran very lean not bad at all:

95,98hp and 14,54kg/m of torque

bike has v&n headers, fullsac recored 2,00 mufflers, heavy breather a.c., and custom made map with super sert...

albert1
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 09S/E roadglide on June 09, 2009, 09:07:36 PM: Mine is in the shop right now.....keep ya posted
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: BigJohnzSE on June 09, 2009, 10:20:56 PM: :bananarock: :jalapeno: :jalapeno:Hello all, Well its been awhile. I have been riding all I can squeze in. Picked up my 09 silver SERG in Febuary, pretty much froze my tush trying to dial in a windshield and get my 1000 miles in. I'm on #4 windshield now. But anyways I went with the Woods w-7 575 lift cams, PC-V, Vance&hines Power Crossovers with V&H 4" round mufflers and dyno'ed at 102hp 119# torque. Its a lot louder than I like, but accelleration is awesome. I'll worry about making it a little quieter this winter. For now it's all about having FUN!!!!! I'll get some pics posted soon. Until then LATER BRO's & SIS'S RIDE HARD RIDE FAST STAY SAFE!!!!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: jfh on June 12, 2009, 08:30:25 PM: Quote from: Blue Serg 57 on May 15, 2009, 09:57:07 PM
So much is in the tranny. FLTRSEI2's first gear is 10.8 to 1, yours is either 9.5 or 9.7 to 1. the FLTRSEI2 makes more rear wheel power then the FLTRSE3 for the first 3 gears then falls behind

The FLTRSEI2 has a mechanical advantage in the lower gears, but I'm not sure that advantage is sufficient to overcome the increased torque from the 13.7% displacement increase of a SERG3.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: DW6019 on June 13, 2009, 09:12:31 AM: Not sure how some of you think gear ratio (mechanical function) has anything to do with engine hp/torque. Engine output is relative, gear ratio is fixed, together they control speed/acceleration/rpm but trans has NO affect on engine output. The engine makes X horsepower regardless of gear ratio, trans just controls how fast, or slowly, that power is used whether it is a bike/car or drill motor. Gears just exist, engines work. Ever wonder why manuf lists crank horsepower vs rear wheel.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: jfh on June 14, 2009, 10:12:19 AM: Quote from: DW6019 on June 13, 2009, 09:12:31 AM
Not sure how some of you think gear ratio (mechanical function) has anything to do with engine hp/torque. Engine output is relative, gear ratio is fixed, together they control speed/acceleration/rpm but trans has NO affect on engine output. The engine makes X horsepower regardless of gear ratio, trans just controls how fast, or slowly, that power is used whether it is a bike/car or drill motor. Gears just exist, engines work. Ever wonder why manuf lists crank horsepower vs rear wheel.

While gear ratio has no effect on engine HP/TQ, the mechanical advantage/disadvantage afforded by a particular gear ratio has everything to do with the performance characteristics of the same engine HP/TQ when applied to the rear wheel. If it didn't matter, we'd all use single speed transmissions and the highest HP motor would always win. Ever wonder why we are more interested in power measured at the rear wheel vs the crank?
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: DW6019 on June 14, 2009, 03:45:50 PM: Once again, gear ratio has nothing to do with ACTUAL horsepower. Engines work, transmissions --- transfer based on ratios or gear reduction/multipliation. My comment was based on someone on the thread saying the trans affected horsepower, it does not.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 09S/E roadglide on June 14, 2009, 04:35:46 PM: Just got Mine back TTS, non-cat pipe (ceramic coated ) , HD heavy breather, fullsac 2" ............95 Hp and 116 Ft. Lbs.

runs really good, very smooth.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Dan_Lockwood on June 15, 2009, 10:22:15 AM: Quote from: DW6019 on June 14, 2009, 03:45:50 PM
Once again, gear ratio has nothing to do with ACTUAL horsepower. Engines work, transmissions --- transfer based on ratios or gear reduction/multipliation. My comment was based on someone on the thread saying the trans affected horsepower, it does not.

I fall a little into both camps on this one.

To your comment above.... We measure rear wheel horsepower for our bike readings. And "in my opinion" that has everything to do with how efficient any given drive system is over another drive system.

Good drive system, bad drive system, motor hp will remain the same throughout. Remember we're reading RWHP, not crank hp at the rear wheel.

Why is it then that a car engine can produce say 500 hp at the crank and on a chassis dyno only produce say 410 hp? The motor still has 500 hp but you can't read that, you only read the rear wheel hp with the loss of the drivetrain. That's why sticks are more efficient than automatics, less drag and moving parts.

Why do car guys look at the newer "old" 200-4R for better hp gains than say a 4L80E, which is the new version of the 400 but electronic and an O/D?

You are right, transmissions control how fast things get done. The only thing a motor or chassis dyno measures is torque. Hp is a formula based on torque x rpm, on other words how fast the work gets done. You can have tons of torque but still not have much hp, again torque x rpms.

So I have my SERK and have two pulls done, one in 6th and one in 5th, I'll see different rear wheel hp numbers for each.

Just like a car, there will be loss through a drive system. Most dyno readings I've seen here for the '07s and newer are usually done in 5th gear. 5th is still not 1:1, but it seems to be the preferred gear. I don't know what they do on older 5 speed transmissions, do they pull in 5th or drop to 4th? Again it should be a comparison between the same bike on the same dyno between its baseline pull and the finish tune pull; not my pull in Sturgis to someone's pull in NJ.

That being said though, I had mine dyno'd at Sturgis and after running a canned map from Power Commander for 6 month without any complaints, the dyno tune gained me smoother running bike, 9 rear wheel hp and also gained 6 mpg. My hp was only 89.6 and that's with V&H duals and V&H Ovals. I had the SE-AC as well as the PCMIII. I was a little let down from the low numbers compared to others here, but the bike ran better and I am a happy camper.

As I said very early on in this, this "is my opinion" only and I'm open to other ideas.

:) :) :)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: FLTRCVO on July 11, 2009, 05:46:17 PM: SEPT with D and D 2 into 1 FatCat / Boss with big bore baffle
HP 97.60 / TQ 113.76
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: DW6019 on July 11, 2009, 08:45:02 PM: Pretty nice pull. Should be peppy around 2000 and above.
Title: "Dyno Difference" 09 SERG results
Post by: Iglide on July 26, 2009, 08:23:36 PM: It's been some time coming.

After killin the cat, adding the snorkel, Fullsac cores, and the SSERT, the bike lacked what was gained by the addition of the Andrews 32H cam. Did that, per Dewey's recommendation (Thanks Dewey).

I really was reluctant to pull the heads for warranty reasons, I know there is more to gain there; I am just not sure it's worth the expense at this point in time.

I scheduled the final tune with Ed down in Richardson, TX. Here's a great guy to do business with! He booked the room and set up all the details. All I had to do was show up.

Ed did the final tune early this AM, and the bike runs fantastic. The results were 99.6 HP and 113 Ft/lbs of TQ.

I caught really nice weather, coming home to the Amarillo area; and enjoyed the opportunity to let the ride stretch it's legs.

Greg led me out of Dallas on his O/B and pointed me towards home.

Thanks Guys, Great weekend, enjoyed it !
Title: Re: "Dyno Difference" 09 SERG results
Post by: aclass on July 26, 2009, 08:57:27 PM: Nice numbers Iglide.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: FLTRCVO on July 28, 2009, 01:53:41 AM: Quote from: tlr on May 18, 2009, 09:18:05 AM
Here is a pic of my sheet. Can someone please taka a look and tell me if this looks good or not. My mods are:

total removal of CAT
Fullsac 2.25
RSD Heavy Breather
SSERT

Thanks

Great numbers with perfect AF, the tech did a nice job of dialing it in.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: tlr on July 28, 2009, 03:50:18 PM: Quote from: FLTRCVO on July 28, 2009, 01:53:41 AM
Great numbers with perfect AF, the tech did a nice job of dialing it in.

Thanks for the response. Bike runs very nicely, but the heat is incredible. So hot on the right leg that i have to move to the hiway pegs for some relief.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: aclass on August 05, 2009, 04:00:24 PM: Well, I get to chime in on this post now, had my serg tuned today and the numbers are: 99hp and 125ft/lb.
Headed to the smokies tomorrow so I'll let you know how it feels.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 09S/E roadglide on August 05, 2009, 06:08:47 PM: Quote from: aclass on August 05, 2009, 04:00:24 PM
Well, I get to chime in on this post now, had my serg tuned today and the numbers are: 99hp and 125ft/lb.
Headed to the smokies tomorrow so I'll let you know how it feels.

those are some big numbers !!! what else did you do to it ??
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: aclass on August 05, 2009, 06:29:18 PM: Everything internal is stock other than the Pro Tuner, Heavy Breather and the D&D 2n1. I dont think it's my imagination but the bike actually sounds different. Interested to see how the mpg and oil temps react.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: FLTRCVO on August 05, 2009, 11:21:03 PM: Quote from: aclass on August 05, 2009, 06:29:18 PM
Everything internal is stock other than the Pro Tuner, Heavy Breather and the D&D 2n1. I dont think it's my imagination but the bike actually sounds different. Interested to see how the mpg and oil temps react.

I'm getting 42.3 mpg and my highest temp was / is 268 however, that was running Las Vegas to Beaty 2 up average speed 85 -90 with the ambient temp being 112 F.
Title: Put my 09 FLTRSE on the Dyno today
Post by: OneMoreTime on August 06, 2009, 07:34:49 PM: Put my 09 FLTRSE on the Dyno today ..its still bone stock but we plan on installing different header pipes and baffels soon ...here are the results.

OMT
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 09S/E roadglide on August 06, 2009, 11:38:00 PM: looks like a 6 gear pull
Title: Re: Put my 09 FLTRSE on the Dyno today
Post by: OneMoreTime on August 21, 2009, 08:18:01 PM: Quote from: OneMoreTime on August 06, 2009, 07:34:49 PM
Put my 09 FLTRSE on the Dyno today ..its still bone stock but we plan on installing different header pipes and baffels soon ...here are the results.

OMT

I have my exhaust on now and have about 700 miiles and had another dyno done ..the tech said that had the day not been so humid he thought it might have done a little better...you guys can be the judge ..

OMT

(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y248/Bamanut/MVC-858F.jpg)
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: trahog on September 18, 2009, 01:32:09 PM: d&d fat cat ,tts mastertune and dyno time,provided by Heath at H&D cycles Lillian Alabama
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: Chuck Pryor on September 18, 2009, 03:02:46 PM: Was your SPL meter set to "A" weight reading or "C" weight reading? Might explain why the SPL drop at higher RPM. "C" weighting is much more sensitive in lower frequencies. So lower RPM=Lower freq's which is measured at a slightly higher SPL. Ether way, the stock exhaust is sad. Nice video!
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: db1945 on September 18, 2009, 10:55:47 PM: Just did the fullsac 2" baffles and killed the cat,actually cut it in half and pulled and twisted and yanked it out, :orange:next is the tune,sure helped the temp out!went from 213-215 to 209 dont seem like much but in slow traffic its pretty good. I might add that I like the look of the factory exhaust, also.If you cut the header in half to let the cat out,make sure you weld it up just as it was or it wont bolt up.Also dont forget to leak test your welds,nothing like getting it bolted back up and discover a leak.
Title: dyno results
Post by: wts on March 05, 2010, 08:07:43 PM: finished the build last week ... trailered to daytona, then put on about 400 easy miles ... still have some tweaking to do but it looks good so far

wts
Title: Re: dyno results
Post by: wts on March 05, 2010, 08:09:22 PM: and the hp curve ... or non curve as the case may be
Title: Re: dyno results
Post by: wts on March 05, 2010, 08:11:39 PM: if somebody can turn these right side up and make them show up i would appreciate it

computer illiterate
wts
Title: Re: dyno results
Post by: 09S/E roadglide on March 05, 2010, 08:17:17 PM: :o :o :o :o :o HOLY MOLY :o :o :o :o

nice job. she has got to be a handful. but more fun than a pillow fight with the Dallas cowboy cheerleaders !!!
Title: Re: dyno results
Post by: wts on March 05, 2010, 08:19:28 PM: but rick we have the same bike
wts
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: wts on March 05, 2010, 08:23:15 PM: somebody moved it

seriously it's a hoot to ride

hits the rev limiter too quick though

wts
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: O4SEGlide on March 09, 2010, 09:28:24 AM: I spend a little time here on the CVO site reading a few post but never get around to posting. Had my 09 SERG dynoed this weekend and wanted to share the results. Mods are 58mm throttle body, large injectors, adjustable pushrods and the TMAN 625 cam. Stock header with no cat and FULLSAC 2" cores. The dyno was performed by Brian at TMAN'S shop. The end results was 107HP and 113TQ. The torque curve comes in at 2750 and stays all the way through the RPM's. It is @100tq @ 2750 and stays above 100tq until about 5600. I must say that TMAN and Brian really performed an outstanding job with my bike. The 625 cam is dead on for this bike. TMAN is very hepful to discuss what you are looking for when modifying your bike. Next year I can see me having him do the heads and bumping up the compression. Ride Safe and have a blessed day.
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: DDavidson on March 09, 2010, 03:45:14 PM: Bassani FLH-509 2" Slipons
Fueling 574 Cam
Tuned by FLTRI(Dyno Bob)
Cut Out/Eliminated
New Tuner

Max Power 110.25
Max Torque 111.41
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: wts on May 03, 2010, 11:19:20 AM: finally gave in and changed the throttle body

helped some

wts
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 09S/E roadglide on May 03, 2010, 09:01:08 PM: What a beast ! :2vrolijk_21:
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: wts on May 03, 2010, 09:50:21 PM: it rides good

did y'all get flooded again rick ?

wts

p.s. my son lives in clarksville just north of nashville ... that why i was thinking about it
Title: Re: 09 FLTRSE3 Dyno Results
Post by: 09S/E roadglide on May 04, 2010, 06:30:02 AM: No floods here. :2vrolijk_21: still hoping for some large damaging hail :P