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[guppytrash]

I would have to say that the tts is much better and tune it yourself.

  Have you had experience with any other tuner?  Do you know anything about the thundermax with autotune?

This appears to be a "jump on the band wagon" deduction.  Correct me if I am wrong.

Good choice..One of the issues I had with a T-MAX is if you are on the road and have a problem, they could use that as a reason not to look at it ....Just sayin..     

Could use the TTS the same way, it is not any more an HD product than the T-MAX. 

I am not going to tell you that one is better than the other because I would not do that unless I had personal experience with each tuner.
I can tell you that I have the SSERT and I have been completely disappointed in my goal to lower the temps.  My next move is the T-max with autotune.
Sometimes you need to make your own deductions.
  (Keep in mind my goal - to lower my engine temps).
There is very heated thread here were someone boasts how the PC-V with autotune is best.  Read it, I have several times. 
My deductions:  1.This site heavily supports the TTS.    2. There are several (in the minority) who responded that were current users of the PC-V/auto-tune.  All reported cooler temps and completely satisfied with the PC-V.  3. The T-MAX was still not available at the time for TBW.
Next:  I started a thread "Whats your highest oil temp?"
My deductions:  1. several with tuners TTS, SSERT reporting high oil temps. 260 to 300 degrees  2. We all tuned are bikes in an effort to cool the temps...along with A/C, exhaust, de-cat...
it doesn't appear to me that it works. 
Next the TBW T-MAX auto-tune:  Random threads here and at other web sites
My deductions:  1. Again the actual owners/users seem to be getting the lower temps. 

I am throwing this out there not to claim that I have the answers or that I am correct, but more as bait.  ANY users of the "CURRENT" TBW T-MAX that are not happy.
 





 
 

[Steve Cole]

You can make the bike run cooler with any of the tuners. Since you have a SSERT already why no just richen it up with it to cool the temps?

[guppytrash]

You can make the bike run cooler with any of the tuners. Since you have a SSERT already why no just richen it up with it to cool the temps?

Well Steve that has been my goal without success.
 I have $300 already in a dyno tune that did not yield any significant cooling.  Now I do believe I have found a guy that has the ability to use my SSERT to properly tune my bike.  He charges $500. and he uses the ?twin scan? twin tech? (not sure, but I know you know what I am talking about) to plug wide band sensors in place of the factory O2 sensors to use while making adjustments.  From what I have read this is the proper way to get it done vs. Sniffing the tailpipe with a 2-1-2 exhaust.
Sooo $800 plus the price of the SSERT I might be were I want to be...
However I do believe and correct me if I am wrong I will still be limited to an AFR of no richer than 14.2  by stock O2 sensors in closed loop.  

Now if I do decide to change cams or pipes down the road I am on the hook for another $500.

So now the option of the Thundermax- auto -tune for $850 seems like it is more capable and much cheaper for the long haul.  It uses "as advertised" wide band O2 sensors, I know you don't agree that they are "wide band" but thats what I am going to call them because that is what they call them and rather than get hung up on the name my understanding is they have the ability to adjust AFR's in closed loop much richer than the stock HD O2 sensor.  

Continuous tuning the AFR's without limitations of the stock O2 sensor (14.2 in closed loop) seems to be working for those who are using the auto-tune.  Now I can still make changes to my bike download a base map and let the auto-tune do the rest.

So to sum it up for me the advantages I see are this:  1. Continuous tuning with auto-tune.  2. O2 sensors with a much wider AFR range capability. (not limited to 14.2 in closed loop)
3. Future changes don't lead me chasing down a base map or spending another $500. for a dyno tune.

That being said if someone had a map for my SSERT that made it start better, run cooler, and gave me 40mpg or better I would probably save myself $850.


  



  

[kraut]

do us a favour - try and report 

I don't believe in those "autotune" gimmicks. If it were this easy, everybody had them and we had one topic less to discuss ...

[guppytrash]

do us a favour - try and report  

I don't believe in those "autotune" gimmicks. If it were this easy, everybody had them and we had one topic less to discuss ...

Kraut I will be happy to report but I am still a couple of weeks away.  When I do report it will be unbiased and direct if it is crap I will tell you, if I think it is great I will tell you!

Honestly it sounds like you have already made up your mind.  

This is always a touchy subject at CVO harley.  

One last comment if you are driving a modern fuel injected car and you change the air filter and exhaust you don't need to go buy a tuner and take it to a dyno.  Ever wonder why?

  

[1Man1God]

First if all, I started this thread just to help me make a decision on which Tuner and exhaust system to buy. I was wanting some different opinions to help me make my decision. And for those opinions, I'm grateful. See I'm probably the dumbest person on this forum when it comes to the Subject of Tuning. I'm not looking for my bike to be the fastest on the street. But I do like the idea of being able to bypass the dyno-techs when I make a change to my bike, and still be reasonably certain I can get my bike to not run so lean. I'm sure that both systems would do that for me. For me the decision came down to value. I could buy a tuner that I could use on both mine and my wifes bike for 600 n change. Or buy one that I could use on only 1 bike for 900. I chose the TTS For that reason. I'm not looking to be a Tuner Whiz. I just want something to change the AFR so it doesn't run so hot and from talking with peeps on this forum I believe there's enough support for the TTS that even a dummy like me can work thru the Tuning Process and be more than happy with it. I'm truly grateful for that support. I DIDN'T MEAN TO START AN ARGUMENT about which system trumps the other. Thanks Steve, Thanks Mr. Wizzard, Thanks Doc1

[guppytrash]

1Man
No argument from me.  And if I had started with what you have (the TTS) I probably would not be looking at thundermax right now.  You have a capable tuner with lots of support. 
For some reason the mention of an auto tune system here seems to ruffle feathers. 
All I want to know is if the T-Max is as capable as advertised, then it may be a better choice for me.  I have been monitoring people using the current version and have not seen to many negatives.  I know the DTE (distance to empty) is not working right now with T-max so I am waiting to buy until that is resolved. 

 
As Steve pointed out, in the right hands, I am sure I could achieve my goal with my current SSERT.
I still do not know if the HD O2 sensors are limited to 14.2 AFR in closed loop. 
     



 

[kraut]

@Guppytrash:

Honestly it sounds like you have already made up your mind. 

This is always a touchy subject at CVO harley.   

One last comment if you are driving a modern fuel injected car and you change the air filter and exhaust you don't need to go buy a tuner and take it to a dyno.  Ever wonder why?

in a way I have already made up my mind indeed - I like what the SESPT autotune did for my ride, especially after very unhappy experiences with the old SERT. But I also know it's shortcomings as it only suggests changes to the AFR tables so you still need someone knowing his job to change timing. So the autotune only does let's call it half of the job 

[Steve Cole]

Tuning with the stock O2 sensors is not limited to 14.2 which I believe to be your question. While I know the SESPT is not as accurate as it could be since you already have it I just hate to see people waste more money when not needed. The thing that you are trying to do with the system is to make the ECM happy. In any event the ECM wins when it comes to tuning the bike in closed loop. It has always been my opinion that we need to let the ECM win, see the results then tell the ECM to do something different. This keeps the ECM happy and the outcome where the tuner wants it.

First thing you need to do is get the VE tables accurately set up. The limit to do this with the factory O2 in closed loop is ~ 14.2. So if you set it up and then let it tune in at 14.2 and get the VE's all taken care of. We can then just simply adjust the AFR table to the desired level and the ECM will do just that. So tune away until it's corrected itself at 14.2 then go back and change the AFR to what you beleive you want. If its idle heat or what just check to see where that area is then adjust those areas to a richer mixture and see if it does what you want. It's just going to take you some trial and error to get there as the SESPT doesn't show you what's going on when adjustments are being made.

[guppytrash]

Steve

Thanks I do greatly appreciate your help and I do hate to waste money.
The first problem is I have very little... OK NO patience!
Second I have the VE tables set up via the HD shop that did my tune.  How accurate I will never know?  I did ask and watch them adjust the AFR table below 1500rpm to try and richen for a cooler idle.  Now I would guess that this is why my bike does not start all that well.
Bottom line is I don't think the SESPT is worth another $500 investment to get it dyno tuned again.
Like I said earlier if I had gone with the TTS set-up from Fullsac I probably would not be involved in this conversation.
I am going to try the T-max with the auto-tune.

Thanks
gt

[DtyHarry]

According to my mechanic the new zippers-thundermax is vastly superior to the TTS - (1) it does not require a dyno tune, (2) it automatically adjusts to different climate/altitude conditions, and (3) allows you to change other things later, like cams, w/o paying for another dyno tune, and (4) at present is the most advanced product to use - albeit it is more $$ the lack of a need for a dyno tune makes it about the same price wise.

[hdnik]

I think I'm way late into this, but as i understand it Guppy already has a SEPST? If so then you should just look for a good technition who knows how to tune it. Why spend all the money on a new computer gizmo.

After the research I chose the VH dresser duals, Klocker Works revolver cans, SEPST, and Heavy Breather. Also find a really good "TUNER"... someone who really knows what he's doing. The parts alone with canned map brought me to 83.01 / 100.33

For $190 bucks in dyno labor I got good gains in HP (8hp) and torque (11#) totals 91.1 / 111.31 compare to using just the canned maps available. ... plus now the max torque is all in the 2500-4000 range... right where I live.

Also temps in rear cylinder dropped almost 40 degrees (front less) using a Laser tester on the barrel.

Maybe not holy chit stats but the bike runs like a top!! Plus they fined tuned the start maps in the SEPST so cold starts are no issue

Here the dyno sheet before and after the dyno time.... no parts - just labour

[DtyHarry]

Looks good but the Zipper-Thundermax does state no dyno needed... I guess the only real test would be to use the Zipper and then get a dyno to see if there was any improvement.

[Midnight Rider]

IF you have a GOOD basemap to start with, the Thundermax can compensate for SMALL changes to the engine.  If you start putting cams in, increasing compression, changing pistons, doing headwork, etc.  ALL BETS ARE OFF.  Do not believe all that you read about the Thundermax...some of it is BS.  Support for the T-max is woefully lacking.  Changing the entire ECM out on your bike gives HD a great excuse to blame all things that might happen to the bike on the T-max.  If you are not concerned about a warranty, that's not an issue.  If you have trouble on the road, it will be a big issue.

TTS is popular here for one good reason:  It works.  It also has good support from several sources.  Nobody is saying that other tuners do NOT work, only that there are some choices that have more support, are easier to operate, and will not set off big red flags if the bike has to go to a dealer for some reason.

I have not read one single report of anyone having oil temps in the 275 degree + range...certainly not 300 degrees.

In the end,  it's the individual's decision...but don't be fooled by those claims that system XYZ "autotunes".

[DtyHarry]

Thanks - the claimed "auto tune" feature does sound a little fishy and I am very concerned about the warranty aspect of my bike - its a 2013 CVO RG. Guess I'll try the TTS... do you really need a dyno with this?