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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: Fullsac Performance on April 08, 2020, 09:59:10 AM
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Occasionally I work with other shops on builds that use my exhaust. Schultz Motorcycle Service in Yuma Az is one of those shops. Don Schultz has done more than a few nice 117 builds that get brought my way for the break in and dyno tune. These Yuma boys roll in the heat! The timing tables have to be spot on or there will be pinging issues at 10.5 compression. I know going in the expectations are high.
Yesterday Don unloaded a nice 2016 water cooled CVO Roadglide with the following parts.
117 top end kit, .030 head gasket.
Stock heads with beehive springs
58 SE TB, 5.3 inj, Ventilator AC
TTS 150 cam, TTS Mastertune Tuner
Fullsac DX Pipe, 2.0 baffle, Techmat
A simple proven cocktail that makes big Torque early and 120/130 every time. Well almost every time and that's what this thread is about. The last 117 Don brought for dyno had the Heavy Breather AC. Rolled out 120/130. Today's bike had the stock Ventilator with a bored backing plate to match the 58 TB. Final pulls were 116 HP and 129 TQ. Don doesn't look too pleased? I suggest we remove the stock CVO Ventilator and make two more pulls. Like Magic, 120 HP and 131 TQ. Once again the simplest part on the bike is working against us. The real point I want to make is the power loss was across the entire RPM range! Not just the top end numbers. The lower in the power band you go the greater the percentage of loss. It's 5 ft pounds at the hit! That's almost 5% torque loss starting at 1800 RPM. Unacceptable. Not sure what AC Don is going to upgrade too, but this is why we use dynos.
Next time you read a thread where it's mentioned the stock CVO AC is just fine. Well just fine if your willing to loose 5% of your low end power. I'm out.
Special Thanks to
Schultz Motorcycle service of Yuma Arizona for using and endorsing our exhaust products and dyno services.
Steve@fullsac.com
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So the stock air cleaner is like your like your bike has the corona virus? It can't breathe.
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Thanks for sharing!!! I used your ventilator extreme on my 128 build with great results.. The oem system on my CVO RG was screaming for more air on the Dyno before the change out..
Ventilator Extreme? Sounds cool but not a product I made.
Steve@fullsac.com
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Speaking as just one of the people who have replied to questions about air cleaners by saying the Ventilator is already a high flow filter, you need to understand the context. Those answers were provided to people who did nothing more than change the exhaust and were asking if they should install the SE air cleaner or other high flow unit for more flow. They obviously didn't know that the stock Ventilator was a much higher flow unit than the stock air cleaner on the non-CVO models. When you start doing major internal mods, including displacement increases, heads, cams, and throttle bodies, I don't think I or any of the others told anyone the Ventilator was still the best choice. It isn't, and I don't think any of us would tell people otherwise.
Jerry
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The point of my post was to show how the power loss from the stock CVO AC starts at the very beginning of a dyno pull and continues to the very end. The air is forced to make a very sharp 90 degree turn to enter the TB due to the low height of the lid. The results are exactly the same on a simple stage I build. I wasn't trying to call anybody out. I just like to share technical findings from my dyno room to the few who have interest. And when I have a bike with the stock CVO AC in my dyno room and a customer with high expectations, I have to tell it like it is.
Ride safe.
Steve@fullsac.com
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The point of my post was to show how the power loss from the stock CVO AC starts at the very beginning of a dyno pull and continues to the very end. The air is forced to make a very sharp 90 degree turn to enter the TB due to the low height of the lid. The results are exactly the same on a simple stage I build. I wasn't trying to call anybody out. I just like to share technical findings from my dyno room to the few who have interest. And when I have a bike with the stock CVO AC in my dyno room and a customer with high expectations, I have to tell it like it is.
Ride safe.
Steve@fullsac.com
Steve are you referring to 2 different air cleaners here? The ventilator in the OP and the 90 degree turn/Heavy breather AC? Thanks
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Steve are you referring to 2 different air cleaners here? The ventilator in the OP and the 90 degree turn/Heavy breather AC? Thanks
One air cleaner, Stock CVO, AKA Ventilator.
SG
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"sharp 90 degree turn to enter the TB"
I'm not understanding this on the Ventilator ? What am I missing?
Thanks
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If you hear which air filter he chooses over stock to maintain flow please post. And, why did he go with beehive springs on the heads?
Thanks for the OP!
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"sharp 90 degree turn to enter the TB"
I'm not understanding this on the Ventilator ? What am I missing?
Thanks
The air comes in from the side, makes a tight 90 degree turn to go through the TB. Not sure how else to explain it? The motor gets real happy when you remove the lid and allow the air to go straight in. ::)
SG
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If you hear which air filter he chooses over stock to maintain flow please post. And, why did he go with beehive springs on the heads?
Thanks for the OP!
I expect Don will go with another SE Heavy Breather. Hard to beat on a Twin Cam. The single beehive springs replace the heavier than needed stock CVO springs. Takes unneeded pressure from the lifters when running a mild cam like the TTS 150. Start running the bigger 600+ lift cams and you better stay with the stock springs.
SG
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Excellent information, thanks Steve
By the way for the M8 guys the Screaming Eagle Heavy Breather Extreme seems to be the go to there, especially important on those big motors.
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Wow, that's a shame. I really like the looks of the Ventilator. I read somewhere (I can't remember where) that a company had K&N make a thicker (wider) element. Would something like that help?
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What about stacking two Venitilator Paper filters, use longer screws and the OE cover? Would hurt leg access for sure but would filter area increase the flow enough to help?
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Tman has a "noloss" 2.5 inch K&N air filter kit retains stock look. nice but expensive.
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May be a little off topic but I have been told that the heavy breather hurts power at speed because the air flowing over it at say 60 mph creates a vacuum effect hurting the ability to suck in air? Would be hard to prove on a stationary dyno but any truth to that?
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Not to jack your thread Steve but here is what looks like a possible solution for us M8 guys and you can supposedly use your HD Ventilator outer cover as well.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/K-N-RK-3956-Metal-High-Flow-Air-Intake-System-Black-for-Road-King-Street-Glide/401569819451
Thoughts?
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I have a similar build. what exactly is the best best AC/Ventilator for the 117 Twin Cooled?
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I have a similar build. what exactly is the best best AC/Ventilator for the 117 Twin Cooled?
X2
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Excellent information, thanks Steve
By the way for the M8 guys the Screaming Eagle Heavy Breather Extreme seems to be the go to there, especially important on those big motors.
I agree. The Heavy breather was great on the Twin Cam.
The heavy breather is not good for performance on the M8. Mine was replaced with the Heavy Breather Extreme, and added bonus is the Extreme has more leg room the the Heavy breather.
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I agree. The Heavy breather was great on the Twin Cam.
The heavy breather is not good for performance on the M8. Mine was replaced with the Heavy Breather Extreme, and added bonus is the Extreme has more leg room the the Heavy breather.
Very accurate info Dave. I just tuned a mild 130" M8 and finished up at 149 HP. The Heavy Breather was showing a 7 HP loss vs open TB. :'(
Steve@fullsac.com
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Very accurate info Dave. I just tuned a mild 130" M8 and finished up at 149 HP. The Heavy Breather was showing a 7 HP loss vs open TB. :'(
Steve@fullsac.com
Thats a huge loss for the Stock M8 heavy breather.
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Dont know if you remember but when the dyno was done with the ventilator on the bike did it have the chrome cover installed? The cover seems to obstruct 30 percent or so of the filter surface. I am wondering if the loss in power gets better with the cover off. Thanks