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Author Topic: Dakar Rally Canceled  (Read 7237 times)

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grandpadoc

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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2008, 10:28:52 AM »

Can I get an Amen to brother Spiderman.


      AMEN BROTHER SPIDERMAN

...AMEN bro,  Doc
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Midnight Rider

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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2008, 12:07:55 PM »

Never said anything about nuking. With our power and technology, we can take over anything we want, anytime we want, and leave most of it intact. We have the ability to strike such fear into anyone we want, that they'll never think of messing with us again. Taking over the oil fields in the ME should'a been done a long time ago. Now as Howie stated, we need to fear China doing the same. It'll have been too late. But it's still not too late for us.

As I've lost friends at the WTC, and have had to live thru what these MF's have caused first-hand, I have no sympathy or compassion for anyway we need to take care of business. The only way to prevent these atrocities is to strike so much fear into these people that they'd really never think about trying anything to us again. No one would!

Ceej is  right though "our world is becoming so politically correct and their world is completely opposite". We need to forget about political correctness, stop worrying about what others will think, and take care of business!

Hoist! 8)

Sorry Hoist, I must have misunderstood your related post in the Obahma thread where you said "even if we have to destroy half the world...."  And, I must have missed the news that all of Iraq's oil supply capabililty is fully operational, and all other necessary infrastructure is up and running.  The people there must be as happy as pigs in the sunshine, and so must we, to be pumping all that oil out of the ground now.   ::)

One other thing...after taking over all the worlds oil fields, 'splain to me how you plan to hold them...at an average cost of 17K to simply outfit a soldier now, and with it probably taking...lets just say for grins...a million more armed men and women to hold the countries we take, not counting those it would take to rebuild the infrastructure after the people of the country we take blow all the chit up to keep us from being able to use it.  Where's the million people coming from, and where is the financing to undertake your proposed mission for our military?  Let China do some more financing of our war effort?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 12:26:14 PM by TCnBham »
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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2008, 12:22:44 PM »

Sorry Hoist, I must have misunderstood your related post in the Obahma thread where you said "even if we have to destroy half the world...."  And, I must have missed the news that all of Iraq's oil supply capabililty is fully operational, and all other necessary infrastructure is up and running.  The people there must be as happy as pigs in the sunshine, and so must we, to be pumping all that oil out of the ground now.   ::)

Sorry Terry, a little "sensationalism" in there for effect. I am not promoting nuking the world here. I'm saying we need to stop worrying about "political correctness" and TCOB! ;)

Hoist! 8)
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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2008, 01:10:38 PM »

Sorry Hoist, I must have misunderstood your related post in the Obahma thread where you said "even if we have to destroy half the world...."  And, I must have missed the news that all of Iraq's oil supply capabililty is fully operational, and all other necessary infrastructure is up and running.  The people there must be as happy as pigs in the sunshine, and so must we, to be pumping all that oil out of the ground now.   ::) Terry,when I was operating in the Persian Gulf (during the largest naval battle since WWII - please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Praying_Mantis) it was my experience that the common people and even some of the Iranian military was VERY happy to have us there!!One other thing...after taking over all the worlds oil fields, 'splain to me how you plan to hold them...at an average cost of 17K to simply outfit a soldier now, and with it probably taking...lets just say for grins...a million more armed men and women to hold the countries we take, not counting those it would take to rebuild the infrastructure after the people of the country we take blow all the chit up to keep us from being able to use it.  Where's the million people coming from, and where is the financing to undertake your proposed mission for our military?  Let China do some more financing of our war effort?
While I'm not advacating taking over "all the world's oil fields, at least not yet, I can assure you that the "costs" assoiciated  with "holding them" in terms of the human and economic costs, are from a domestic standpoint, significantly lower than the current costs. Because we as a nation are NOT commited to the current situations we are paying one hell of a price. With the conviction of the American people and the shear force that our great military possess, a full court press would have profound effect. We haven't witnessed 1/4 of our militaries strength do to PC. The ONLY thing the bad guys understand is FORCE. Wish it were different but we can't control that.
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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2008, 04:04:43 PM »

At the height of it's power, Rome would follow this way of thinking so harshly that it was said a citizen of Rome could walk about freely without fear anywhere on earth because any act against him would be dealt with a hundred fold. This policy brought centuries of peace and stability to vast segments of the ancient world.


Not going to get drawn in to a religio-political ramble on the who, what, when and why's of it all.  Would just point out one thing about Rome as an example though.

It's true that there was some degree of security for someone who saw a Roman alien, waved his hand and uttered "civus Romanus."   In areas where Rome had control the response could be... robust.

One has to ask, however, "at what cost?"  Rome's periphery was filled with enemies.   Celts, Germanics, Parthians, Sassanid Persians, Carthage's genocide under Cato, Egypt and the list goes on and on and on and on.  Such does not even touch on Rome's enemies in civil wars within the empire.  In some ways even more telling is Rome's historical legacy.  Modernity may admire some of what Rome achieved.  We do not mourn its passing though.  There's always the snickering look back of "well, they really deserved it after all."

So, granted, some notion of "civus Americanus" is an admirable goal.  But not at the cost Rome paid. 

Give me a different example for our own future than one beset with enemies in toto and an international history that looks back at a backwater United States with a subtext that says "the Americans deserved it."  Short of that I'll face enemies that have forced that title upon themselves by their actions or alliances. 

I'll hope to face them on terms and fields of my own choosing as much as possible.  But would face them whereever and however needed.  I believe that an eventual victory by a combination of military, social and economic means is possible short of eventually having to be Rome and rising and falling as such.
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Coolbreeze

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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2008, 04:25:13 PM »

Not to put tooo fine a point on things here.. but I believe that we are already involved in a civil war of global proportions. 

Now is probably the right time for the individuals of the free world to take things in to thier own hands, and deal with the destabilizers of our planetary culture individually. 

Yes, we are a global culture now, we have been for some time, and the malignant growths of counter-civilization need to be exiced from the body of the whole, or the whole will not survive. 

There are now, and there always have been, more good guys than bad guys.  If we wait too long, all will have to stand and be counted among the warriors.  If it is done sooner, then the warriors among us will bear the cost alone.  Either way, the cost of the extremists will be borne.  It's just a matter of when society will demand that the cost be paid and the deed be done. 

What are YOU ready to do, individually, when the problem raises it's head in your neighborhood?  in the house next door.  At the cash register at your local Dairy Mart?  At your childs school?          What will YOU do?

Thak about that for a minute............         

 :soapbox:   
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Twolanerider

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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2008, 05:07:25 PM »

Not to put tooo fine a point on things here.. but I believe that we are already involved in a civil war of global proportions. 



It's the way it's always been Shannon.  I couldn't agree more that when tactics and strategy suggest that an alliance of those in favor of good or right or whatever it might be called can more easily give battle to an opposition it ought to be done.  But only rarely has it ever been done that way.

Instead those we'd see as "our side" have to wait and be blooded.  And they have to do it again.  Lingerers will fall to malingerers and fewer will stand alone before great enough action is eventually taken.  It's not just sad, it's not just wrong, in real ways it's also just dumb.  But it may be a "dumb-ness" we have to endure.

Israel didn't wait to protect itself in its many wars until a time came when political realities said it could not afford to be seen to strike first.  That war 30 years and change ago cost them more in blood and treasure than would have been spent had it not waited.

Still the responses deemed necessary are "measured," "requisite," or "reciprocal" among other colloquialisms for anything less than victory.  We're now paying the price for somehow believing that a country and a people can be occupied that weren't thoroughly defeated first.  The perception of that continuing battle gives rise to more reaction elsewhere.  And all for a pinprick.

I'm not intending to any way belittle the cost borne by the victims of 9/11.  But it wasn't a strategic attack and it was of little tactical consequence.  It was, as terror attacks almost often are, an attack of perception. 

The economy wasn't damaged greatly.  The number killed were surprisingly fewer than most believed would be the case when the towers fell.  And barring a few indignities at airports or borders and a few legislative and executive overreaches that the Supreme Court will eventually distill in calmer days the day to day lives of the average citizen didn't change much.

The attacks did put the U.S. at war.  In many ways unfortunately, however, I say it did not put the nation at war.  Only the armed forces.  The nation out of uniform continued on much the same.  Which is part of the reason the response has been as restrained as it has.  A nation at war behaves much differently than does an Army under orders at war abroad.

Yes, the US response has been restrained.   Years of continued low intensity COIN warfare is restrained relative to what an American nation under draft and fully engaged might demand.  Counter insurgency ops worried about damaging prayer sites as much as capturing insurgents is restrained.

In some cases, as against the example of Rome cited above, that type of restraint is laudatory.  In other cases, however, it's just dumb.  It's also sanctimonious and hypocritical for those of us at home to judge the effects of the efforts too harshly when efforts of the magnitude generally practiced are the limits of how angry we really got.

Just think what we'd be demanding and how different the response might have been if our enemies had put a thousand only moderately trained souls to task running loose around the country setting fires in movie theaters full of children in rural small towns, opening fire randomly in restaurants, rigging boats to explode by vacationers in civilian lakes and rivers and all the other soft target indiscriminate attacks against you and me and our children the mind could conjure. 

Such things could go on for a long time.  We'd be all watching the other.  We'd be demanding greater response at home and abroad from national and local authority.  Instead we fight the fight we do because our enemy didn't understand and employed flawed tactics on 9/11.

Thank goodness for an enemy as flawed as it is.  With the restrictions we place on ourselves those flaws hurt him less than they should though.  But none of it is as simple as saying we "should" do more or we "could" win this yesterday if it weren't just for things done or not done.

Shannon is absolutely right.  It is a "civil" war of global proportion that is in our future.  In the most literal of meanings.  "Civil" and social rationales (and irrationalities) are the drivers.  Such will, eventually, take something more than a measured and professional military response.  At least it better.  Because if a professional military response is loosed to defeat that kind of enemy the battlefield is vacant, cleared and sterile when the battle is done.  No one and nothing is left.  That's what Rome tried.
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FNGw/08SERK

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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2008, 05:10:00 PM »

 :zwtf: :furious2: :beatdeadhorse:
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grandpadoc

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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2008, 05:47:19 PM »

Sorry Terry, a little "sensationalism" in there for effect. I am not promoting nuking the world here. I'm saying we need to stop worrying about "political correctness" and TCOB! ;)

Hoist! 8)

This has all been done before only it was called the Crusades, two religions of intolerance going at it. If they had nukes back then both sides would have used them and we wouldn't be having this discussion today or ever. As far as I'm concerned this is another reason to hate religion. It seems we all pray to the same god, but we let it get away from us.  Doc
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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2008, 07:35:24 PM »

This has all been done before only it was called the Crusades, two religions of intolerance going at it. If they had nukes back then both sides would have used them and we wouldn't be having this discussion today or ever. As far as I'm concerned this is another reason to hate religion. It seems we all pray to the same god, but we let it get away from us.  Doc


Yeah Doc, but tell a fanatic from either side that they both pray to the God of Abraham, or that their prophets are much the same and tell mostly the same stories.  It's a way to get flogged.  Hell, (except for those that don't believe in it), getting zealots from both sides to hate the reasonable might be the only way to get the nut jobs to agree on anything.
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grandpadoc

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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2008, 10:53:07 PM »


Yeah Doc, but tell a fanatic from either side that they both pray to the God of Abraham, or that their prophets are much the same and tell mostly the same stories.  It's a way to get flogged.  Hell, (except for those that don't believe in it), getting zealots from both sides to hate the reasonable might be the only way to get the nut jobs to agree on anything.

I can't agree with you more!! Both religions have their roots in Abraham and have killed more people than both world wars. Western civilization has really lost touch with the past, but the Muslims still think the Crusades never ended and have been vigilant about passing the story down to the present generation. Doc
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Talon

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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2008, 12:56:18 PM »

Today, Hilliary made a statement that she was the candidate that could beat the Republicans. I think this is the problem with our thinking these days, they shouldn't be looking to beat a certain party, they should be looking to get elected because they stand for what the majority of Americans want and need. I see good and bad ideas from both parties. Many Americans are letting their party affiliations cloud their judgment, and divide America. Take a good look at the candidates, look at the issues that you feel really strong about, cut thru their B.S. and vote for the person you feel will really work for you regardless of their party!

We don't need a Republican or Democrat, we need better schools, more jobs, alternatives to high gas prices, health care, security at our borders.......!

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spydglide

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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2008, 01:24:03 PM »

We don't need a Republican or Democrat, we need better schools, more jobs, alternatives to high gas prices, health care, security at our borders.......!


Exactly!  But, can anyone run and win w/o the support of one of these machines backing them?  This may be the problem that our representative system has evolved into......it's hard not to become over-whelmed and jaded when you realize that the process gives up a President that has all the confusion that involves judges not allowing vote counts and rumors taking out candidates that may be trying to compete by talking of 'issues'.......it appears that we are no longer allowed to have these choices outside of the big political party machines approval.   And the media coverage is a whole 'nother problem (jmho)    :nervous:  spyder
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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2008, 04:08:37 PM »

In my opinion, the media pretty much makes or breaks the candidates so what does that say about the media ?

That they give the "general public" (who is that guy, anyway?  :nixweiss:) exactly what they want to feed on.  There's only 2 or 3 news sources I listen to, and I ain't about to post them here.
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Re: Dakar Rally Canceled
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2008, 04:10:23 PM »

That they give the "general public" (who is that guy, anyway?  :nixweiss:) exactly what they want to feed on.  There's only 2 or 3 news sources I listen to, and I ain't about to post them here.

Must be them damn Hippie sources! ;D ;D ;D

Hoist! 8)
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