www.CVOHARLEY.com
CVO Technical => Drive Train => Topic started by: CVO2FIXUP on January 16, 2015, 02:26:32 PM
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My builder got a e-mail from Baker today outlying the fact that they are bringing out their own line of compensator's for big twins. I will be getting one for sure.. I was unable to attach the original official e-mail so I hat to cut and paste the info but there it is. I am so excited, I think I have to go change my drawers. :orange:
BAKER Compensator Kit
Return to carefree riding with the BAKER Compensator Kit for 2007-Later Big Twins!
Our kit includes:
34-Tooth Compensating Sprocket
Motor Extension Shaft
Cam Slider
Spring Cup
Retention Bolt
Part Number: 630-67K
Retail Price: $399.00
Now accepting pre-orders, shipping soon!
Call (517) 339-3835 for more information!
BAKER Drivetrain
9804 East Saginaw
Haslett, MI 48840
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Well that's good news! It will be interesting to learn how many change over to the Baker product. :2vrolijk_21:
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That is good news.
Hopefully it'll work like it is suppose to.
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I hope it's available soon! My comp is shot, and I sure don't want to fork over the money for another POS Harley one.
Ken
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The V-Twin dealer show is in a few weeks. I'd imagine we'll see this there. I'll get what info I can.....
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This has been the big news on almost every Harley forum today
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Picture looks like a bigger version of the early EVO style compensators. I had asked in other post why not make them like the early EVO. Looks like Baker heard me.
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My builder just ordered 6 new Baker compensator's. Three bikes on the lifts with totally blown out comps. One bike has around 3000 miles on it. Baked says they will be shipping at the end of February. 4 short weeks till the second coming!!!!
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My builder just ordered 6 new Baker compensator's. Three bikes on the lifts with totally blown out comps. One bike has around 3000 miles on it. Baked says they will be shipping at the end of February. 4 short weeks till the second coming!!!!
WHOO HOO! I'll be ordering one as soon as I can!
Ken
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I really hope this baker comp is the fix ...
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Looks like it ready to order. What's the long bolt for?
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I spoke with Baker today at the show. They are looking to ship the beginning of May. There is a possibility of a little sooner. I believe the first run is 100 units and over half are spoken for already. There are currently 7 in the field being tested by various people. I ordered one for a customer's 2010 Street Glide.
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Thanks for the update
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Some nice updates on what we are about to get. Check it.
http://bakerdrivetrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/2007-Later-Comp-Kit-V2.020415.2.pdf
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I keep seeing references to 34 teeth. How many are on the HD comp? What does this change do for us? 2009 FLTRSE3 Also, do we have to buy the new stator or cup or whatever it is that you need with the new HD comp?
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I keep seeing references to 34 teeth. How many are on the HD comp? What does this change do for us? 2009 FLTRSE3 Also, do we have to buy the new stator or cup or whatever it is that you need with the new HD comp?
The stock crank sprocket is 34 teeth, so the Baker unit maintains the stock primary ratio. As for the rotor, if yours is still stock then yes you will have to change the rotor to the late model style. H-D didn't add the SE comp to the CVO until the 2010 model.
Jerry
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So I'm going to have to spend $400 on new compensator, then $100 for new rotor, then $200 for compensavor to fix this mess? 2009 FLTRSE3
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So I'll ask the question... Baker is advertising their compensator as being built around the "tried-n-true pre-2007 cam lobe geometry". The reason the compensator changed in 07 was because the existing pre 07 cam lobe geometry was not sufficient to handle the loads primarily generated by the advent of the cruise drive in 07. Even the original 07 compensator (pre SE compensator) was not sufficient to handle the torque loads, resulting in twisted cranks and other failures. Because of the failures, Harley first came out with the "torque smoothing" calibrations, then the isolated drive, then the SE compensator... The SE compensator seems to have addressed the issues with torque load, but the SE compensator itself was a design failure, suffering from extreme premature failures. I will be an interested spectator... :)
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So I'm going to have to spend $400 on new compensator, then $100 for new rotor, then $200 for compensavor to fix this mess? 2009 FLTRSE3
Unfortunately, that's the scenario. It could be worse, I know of people who are on their third replacement SE compensator.
Good luck.
Jerry
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So I'll ask the question... Baker is advertising their compensator as being built around the "tried-n-true pre-2007 cam lobe geometry". The reason the compensator changed in 07 was because the existing pre 07 cam lobe geometry was not sufficient to handle the loads primarily generated by the advent of the cruise drive in 07. Even the original 07 compensator (pre SE compensator) was not sufficient to handle the torque loads, resulting in twisted cranks and other failures. Because of the failures, Harley first came out with the "torque smoothing" calibrations, then the isolated drive, then the SE compensator... The SE compensator seems to have addressed the issues with torque load, but the SE compensator itself was a design failure, suffering from extreme premature failures. I will be an interested spectator... :)
I'll be right there beside you. For everyone's sake who has had to put up with this BS for the past seven years and counting, I do hope Baker has the answer but of course only time will tell.
Jerry
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I'm ready....
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interesting.. I've never read anywhere that the 07 compensator was designed because the old one would not handle the load - i thought it was designed to make assembly in the factory faster.
??????????????
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interesting.. I've never read anywhere that the 07 compensator was designed because the old one would not handle the load - i thought it was designed to make assembly in the factory faster.
??????????????
The SE compensator was originally offered as a Screamin Eagle performance upgrade. The 2007 stock compensator had already been (insufficiently) redesigned from the "tried an true pre 07 compensator" in an attempt to handle the higher torque loads of the 110 motor and cruise drive. The SE compensator should have been offered as a warranty item, but was pawned off as a "performance upgrade". I think it was 2009 or 2010 that the SE compensator became the stock compensator on CVO's. This is the SE compensator description from the Screamin Eagle catalog:
"This premium compensator has been engineered with heavier springs and increased travel to support the high torque output associated with high-compression race and large displacement engines. Designed to support up to 7 times the energy absorption capacity of the Original Equipment compensator, this unit helps protect the engine and driveline components during harsh drag race launches. This Compensator is the perfect addition to a complete performance upgrade, and it complements the installation of the Screamin’ Eagle® Performance Clutch Hub."
Here is a post from back in 2008 that describes the scenario of the introduction of the SE Compensator very well...
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=30766.msg503390#msg503390
Absolutely nothing at all to do with faster assembly time. Everything to do with a poor engineering effort that occurred back in 2007 and still exists today, in spite of the introduction of the SE Compensator and four subsequent re-designs of the compensator.
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2010 was when the MoCo started installing the SE compensator on CVO's. The regular models weren't "upgraded" until 2012.
The compensator was changed from the time tested old design when H-D decided to redesign the primary for the 2006 Dyna/2007 other models. They took the idea from Baker to basically overdrive the primary ratio so they could make top gear in the new six speed trans a 1:1 ratio, as opposed to an overdrive ratio in the trans. It was this ratio change in the primary that really created the extra stress, more than the additional torque of the 110 over the 103. The same thing created the multitude of IPB failures, even on the TC96 bikes like the Dyna in 2006, and the rest of the models in following years. Regardless, the change was typical for H-D, poorly engineered and either not tested, or not tested to the proper standards. And typical for H-D as well, they let the customers deal with the problems for many years before they made any attempt to rectify the problems. At this point it has been nine years since the new primary design hit the street, and they still haven't come up with a robust design for the compensator. But they are more than happy to sell customers a new one every couple years, once the warranty expires. Just one more example of them making money off their mistakes.
Jerry
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Has anyone heard any updates from baker on how their testing is been going? I know the weather has been bad around the states. Just checking to hear of anything! Thanks
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I understand Bert is on a 2000 mile test ride now
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I will sit back and wait I see
The theory of the tried and true early design statement as what they built is really nothing like the early part, and with a larger sprocket you increase leverage onto the ramps..
I think if that was the way to go it would have been done by HD, just like Hobans tried the rubber isolator set up HD had that as well back in the early 80's .. Like it or not HD has some huge pockets and they may not always have the best idea , they really do test parts. If that works great if not well that how it goes .. I like Baker and spend a ton of money with them .. But not so sure about this .. I am sure the public will test them and see what happens..
We have some experience in dealing with comps .. so again for us it will be a wait and see deal.
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So why not install a good crank in your engine and just go to a solid front sprocket?
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Even with a good crank a engine like the V twin for normal street use needs something to dampen the power pulse in the lower RPM. Many guys have tried the solid comp route and most do not like the jerky-ness in low RPM and many time it will transmit vibration as well..
Now on inline smooth imports sure but not so much for a 900+ lb bagger chugging around in a parking lot.
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I will sit back and wait I see
The theory of the tried and true early design statement as what they built is really nothing like the early part, and with a larger sprocket you increase leverage onto the ramps..
I think if that was the way to go it would have been done by HD, just like Hobans tried the rubber isolator set up HD had that as well back in the early 80's .. Like it or not HD has some huge pockets and they may not always have the best idea , they really do test parts. If that works great if not well that how it goes .. I like Baker and spend a ton of money with them .. But not so sure about this .. I am sure the public will test them and see what happens..
We have some experience in dealing with comps .. so again for us it will be a wait and see deal.
I'm with you Steve... Wait and see... :2vrolijk_21:
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We have some experience in dealing with comps .. so again for us it will be a wait and see deal.
Does the Baker Attitude Adjuster fit with a Compensaver installed?
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No sir it does not, we thought about it but in the end the sales of the Baker unit are extremely low compared to stock set up and after a few broke we decided to move away from making mods to the mold so it could be used.
However after ten's of thousands of miles of testing the best chain tensioner is the stock unit. Not buying the crank failure and bearing failure and all of the other things that have been blamed on the stock unit. Correctly set up the stock part has proven to work the best , not created any extra noise.
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Even with a good crank a engine like the V twin for normal street use needs something to dampen the power pulse in the lower RPM. Many guys have tried the solid comp route and most do not like the jerky-ness in low RPM and many time it will transmit vibration as well..
Now on inline smooth imports sure but not so much for a 900+ lb bagger chugging around in a parking lot.
I suppose.. just thinking, though. Maybe its the 900lbs or the length of the stroke.... Like you, I have had more than a few Vrods apart and they are gear driven on that side, with no comp, except for the floating rear belt sprocket (like our 09 and up touring). With those, they are smooth above 2K rpms. Am I comparing oranges and orangutans?
I do think the next time I go into the primary I will swap to a stronger clutch and a solid sprocket. I need to get the trap door replaced this winter so that might be the best time... I'll save the comp and worst case, its a gasket and couple $$ paper weight.
Chris
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Actually the worst case scenario won't be fixed by reinstalling the compensator after the fact. Unless you upgraded the crankshaft (flywheel assembly) when you did the 113 build, the stock crankshaft is the weak link. And it's not just about the pulses from engine combustion, but also the shock loads imposed by feedback from the rear wheel.
Jerry
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Jerry,
Actually, I put an S&S crank in it when I did the 113 install. I just couldn't put a good top end on a stock crank...
Chris
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Jerry,
Actually, I put an S&S crank in it when I did the 113 install. I just couldn't put a good top end on a stock crank...
Chris
Smart man!
Jerry
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Any updates on the Baker compensator are they still shipping in May? I saw that Bert did a 2000 mile road test and delivered unit #2. I assume this test didn't have any failures. Are the latest compensators from Harley still failing?
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Any updates on the Baker compensator are they still shipping in May? I saw that Bert did a 2000 mile road test and delivered unit #2. I assume this test didn't have any failures. Are the latest compensators from Harley still failing?
There is quite the lengthy discussion on HTT. They have had some test units on bikes and have gotten the kinks out and it seems are ready to ship.
geezerglide
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HTT?
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HTT?
Harley Tech Talk. It's a web forum.
Jerry
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Ok, my builder just spoke to James from Baker and they are shipping THIS FRIDAY the 8th!!!!!!!! So depending when you placed your order we can have a baker comp in out little desperate hands as soon as next week. Could this really be the second coming?
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Great news, comp,s shipped out to Aviation on 7/May/15 so we should have them by mon or teusday of next week. Then in to my bike and feed back right away. I'm stoked as the young punks like to say today. :mango: :bananarock:
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Mine was shipped today
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Can you imagine the day that you get to keep $400 in your pocket year after year and never have to take your primary cover off again. What a wonderful world that would be eh! Last time I was this excited is when my very first girlfriend did something to me in the car. Good times.
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It has arrived!!!!! And all of our dreams and desires will be fulfilled. ( I hope :drink: )
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Sorry they are all sideways. Not sure why.
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The ramps look a lot steeper compared to my '09 SERG comp.
(http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL846/863774/22312062/411240192.jpg)
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did you get it on the road yet? mine should be delivered today, but since I'm headed overseas on monday It will be a while before i get a chance to install mine.
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Opening the cottage this weekend. So will probably be riding with the new comp next week.
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Just curious, What are the signs of a bad comp?
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Mine showed up while I was in Myrtle Beach. Waiting to get the bike in after Memorial day weekend to work on it. :2vrolijk_21:
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Finally the Baker comp is in the bike and ready to go. ( almost ) Builder called me and was concerned about how silent the comp was now. He thought something was wrong. ;) Big test coming. Will be putting on 3000 miles on the baby starting this thurs. Will report from the road.
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Rivera clutch
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Nice setup, let us know how it works
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Very surprised that we've not seen any real world reviews for the BAKER Compensator Kit yet. It's making me wonder if there's nothing good to report? Hopefully it's everything most are hoping it will Be.
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Very surprised that we've not seen any real worls reviews for the BAKER Compensator Kit yet. It's making me wonder if there's nothing good to report? Hopefully it's everything most are hoping it will Be.
Go on to Harley Tech Talk HTT, there are apprx. 24 + plus pages of posts from the inception to finished, not to product being delivered. It looks like a good product.
geezerglide
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Well, I have some real world experience with the Baker comp. :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21: Is all I can say. The boys and I just returned from a 4000 mile trip to the Smokies. ( Tennessee ) Had the comp installed just before we left. I tell you I did not hear a peep from it the entire trip. From screaming the bike on the Dragon to blasting up some of those long steep hills, total silence. Not even that nasty clunk when you turn your bike off. So far so good, and I am very happy.
I did hit a dead deer on the road in Virginia doing 90 at night. Thank got the bike sliced through it and I stayed up. Bloody close man.
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Cant post the pick of the deer guts on my bike as this site cant handle a simple pick from my i phone. Piss me off.
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Good to hear (or not hear) Thanks!!
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Cant post the pick of the deer guts on my bike as this site cant handle a simple pick from my i phone. Piss me off.
It takes sometime but site will take pictures from I phones, I do it all the time. I learned it takes patience to let them load.
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Cant post the pick of the deer guts on my bike as this site cant handle a simple pick from my i phone. Piss me off.
All the folks using phones to load pictures to the site could do themselves and those of us viewing the site a favor by reducing the size of the photo's. Every phone I've seen sets the default resolution/size to the maximum, and these days that can result in large files that take a long time to upload and download, and when displayed on a monitor result in pictures much too large to fit the screen, forcing the viewer to scroll back and forth and up and down. I'm not familiar with any normal consumer monitor or laptop that displays over 3000 pixels in width, and yet the latest phones will produce such images. IMHO a more reasonable size for internet viewing might be 1280 or less. That will also have the beneficial effect of faster upload and download times, and will also use less storage space on your phone.
Take a look at the settings for the camera app in the phone and if it's set at the largest size, reduce it to a more reasonable setting. If you're taking photo's to be printed and you really need the highest resolution, then set it back to the highest setting.
Just a thought and a suggestion.
Jerry
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All the folks using phones to load pictures to the site could do themselves and those of us viewing the site a favor by reducing the size of the photo's. Every phone I've seen sets the default resolution/size to the maximum, and these days that can result in large files that take a long time to upload and download, and when displayed on a monitor result in pictures much too large to fit the screen, forcing the viewer to scroll back and forth and up and down. I'm not familiar with any normal consumer monitor or laptop that displays over 3000 pixels in width, and yet the latest phones will produce such images. IMHO a more reasonable size for internet viewing might be 1280 or less. That will also have the beneficial effect of faster upload and download times, and will also use less storage space on your phone.
Take a look at the settings for the camera app in the phone and if it's set at the largest size, reduce it to a more reasonable setting. If you're taking photo's to be printed and you really need the highest resolution, then set it back to the highest setting.
Just a thought and a suggestion.
Jerry
Neal can set the software on the modem to resize the pix. It's a plug in that needs to be loaded and installed.
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So I'm going to have to spend $400 on new compensator, then $100 for new rotor, then $200 for compensavor to fix this mess? 2009 FLTRSE3
Did you update your compensator to the HD SE compensator since you bought your bike? If you did, then you would not need a new rotor. As that kit came with the new style rotor.
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Any real world feedback about the Baker compensators yet?
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Mine is to be shipped in 10 days or so.. Will report back after I have put some miles on it.
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Any real world feedback about the Baker compensators yet?
I installed one in a early 2010 and he loves it so far. The bike is quiet once again, he claims it shifts better also. He only has a few hundred miles on the compensator so far.
It is a straight forward install. I had to remove the inner primary bolts to get the rotor out. I'm not certain if they all have to be done this way or not. Since the bike was an early 2010 the rotor had to be changed.
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Took out my SE compensator and installed the baker the SE looked good though I have a few 100 miles on the Baker and its very quiet so far so good, the SE would make noise and kick back every once in a while the Baker seems much quieter, still running the stock adjuster.
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OK, guys...I'll admit ignorance, but I want to learn, so help me out here...does this compensator issue affect all 110's or just certain years and/or certain models?
Thanks in advance for the lesson!
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OK, guys...I'll admit ignorance, but I want to learn, so help me out here...does this compensator issue affect all 110's or just certain years and/or certain models?
Thanks in advance for the lesson!
The primary, including the compensator, was changed back in 2006 on the Dyna, 2007 for everything else, when Harley introduced the Cruise Drive six speed transmission. The original 2006/2007 compensator design was totally inadequate, with insufficient travel and highly variable spring tension. After it became obvious the compensator couldn't cope with even the standard bikes, much less the CVO's, Harley's response was to come out with the Screamin' Eagle Compensator. They didn't use it to replace the original design, but instead just put it in the catalog so the suckers customers could buy it themselves and install it to solve some of the problems caused by the original version. Typical H-D response, find a way to make more profit rather than step up and fix a defect on their dime.
Anyway, it wasn't until the 2010 CVO models that Harley started using the SE design in production. Since that time, they have made at least four revisions to the SE design to try to get it to last. The latest version added drip lubrication to the hub area to try to address abnormal and premature wear. At this point, I think the jury is still out as to whether this latest version will actually fix all the issues. There are people on this site btw who have replaced three or four compensators so far. Most people never replaced a single compensator on the old five speed Big Twins, no matter how long they owned them.
Jerry
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If they offer a 30t version I may just have to have one.
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You couldn't drop the comp teeth numbers from 34 to 30 tooth without replacing the chain for a shorter one! You would have no adjustment left for the chain otherwise. Buffalo
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I have about 5000 miles on my baker comp now, and its quiet as a mouse. Come to think of it the bike does shift better especially at higher revs ( like when I am racing my budds ) No I think I will tear down the rockers and see if the top end noise is coming from the rocker shafts hitting the bolts. It really does sound like that. cheers.
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Finished installing my Baker Compensator this morning. Took it out for an hour, so far so good. Seems now that I have the compensator noise quieted down. I can now hear what "Harley calls normal" neutral rattle that goes away when you pull the clutch in.
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However after ten's of thousands of miles of testing the best chain tensioner is the stock unit. Not buying the crank failure and bearing failure and all of the other things that have been blamed on the stock unit. Correctly set up the stock part has proven to work the best , not created any extra noise.
Can you elaborate on "correctly set up the stock part"?
My understanding from Harley's service manual was bolt it in, and it adjusts as the engine runs.
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yea well I disagree. it needs no more than 3/4 of inch play and that may be too much once hot.. Its a trial deal.. I set it at about 1/2-5/8 cold at top of chain.. Just click the tensioner up with a screw driver..
As for the baker units well here is one with 369 miles on it and Baker just replaced this one in Strugis ( second one in bike) and it makes noise and for the rest the pictures do the best to show you what it is doing.
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Compensaver/photo%205_zpsqqd8nxln.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/Compensaver/photo%205_zpsqqd8nxln.jpg.html)
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Compensaver/photo%204_zpsk4imfrah.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/Compensaver/photo%204_zpsk4imfrah.jpg.html)
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Compensaver/photo%203_zpss2ikhins.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/Compensaver/photo%203_zpss2ikhins.jpg.html)
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Compensaver/photo%201_zpsbsrgl7ml.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/Compensaver/photo%201_zpsbsrgl7ml.jpg.html)
Here is a old pic of the SE comp and look at the freeting on the design that got no oil and the Baker.. Customer had me remove and replace with New Se comp and our Compensaver kit. No more bang or rattle and is very smooth.. I have only delt with a few of them and the noise thing is common from what I see. Another shop reporting the same thing over on HTT.
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/Compensaver/IMG_0150_zps44d9a554.jpg) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/Compensaver/IMG_0150_zps44d9a554.jpg.html)
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Thanx for the reply. So you're advocating Compensaver and newest SE compensator? I'm still on the sidelines.
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So what is the final verdict? Baker worth spending the money?
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Well the cost is about the same between stock and the Baker. I had my Baker in the bike now for about 6000 miles now and still nice and quiet. The last SE comp made noise as soon as the bike was started and just got louder and louder. Dint get half a season out of it. So I say go with the Baker if you need to change. Nothing to loose.
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I had ordered mine with the manual adjuster long before Sturgis. I finally have them in my hands. But while it's apart I think I am going to change the clutch while I am in there. Still have not done any research on the clutch yet. Anyone else change your clutch assy out yet??????
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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My Baker still seems to be working good, is everyone else still happy?
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The UPS truck dropped off a Baker Compensator. I plan to install it tomorrow. Any helpful hints or suggestions?
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Only advice is to make sure it all lines up meaning your comp with your chain and your clutch basket. Doing it again I would use the HD chain adjuster and will be switching back.
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Follow up. Easy peasy.
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Only advice is to make sure it all lines up meaning your comp with your chain and your clutch basket. Doing it again I would use the HD chain adjuster and will be switching back.
No Harry. I found a chain tensioner that REALLY works and it's a true hydraulic unit. It is made by Southern Oregon Hot Bikes. The price delivered is $139.00A friend of mine owns an Indy shop and he turned me on to these people. I did talk to Roger on the phone before purchase and watched a video on the unit. Very nice unit. www.SOHOTBIKES.com
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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My Baker Compensator is now in the bike along with a new motor. Vey few mile but a very quite primary now. The motor and primary are so quite all I hear is all of the rattling noise coming from the transmission!!! New Baker Grudge Box Trannie is next. Release date won't be until sometime in June!!!!!
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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Any real world feedback about the Baker compensators yet?
I don't have a lot of miles on mine yet but with a mild build on my 14 Limited and a new tensioner I am very happy. The new motor and all of the changes to the primary, it is so quite all I hear is all of the noise coming from the trans. Oh and BTW Harley says this trannie noise is normal!!!!! New Baker Grudge Box going in when they are available.
Be Safe
THE DAWG
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No Harry. I found a chain tensioner that REALLY works and it's a true hydraulic unit. It is made by Southern Oregon Hot Bikes. The price delivered is $139.00A friend of mine owns an Indy shop and he turned me on to these people. I did talk to Roger on the phone before purchase and watched a video on the unit. Very nice unit. www.SOHOTBIKES.com
Be Safe
THE DAWG
Did you start a new thread on this? I just checked out the website and it's pretty interesting.
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Did you start a new thread on this? I just checked out the website and it's pretty interesting.
I did not. But I now have a very quite primary.
Be Safe
THE DAWG