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cvoDoug

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NOW WHAT????
« on: July 06, 2014, 10:56:12 PM »

Ok, so I inquired advice about my clutch issue.  As recommended I changed to dot4.  This seemed to make things better for a while.  But my nagging issue was/is still present. 
As long as I was starting with the bike in neutral I could pull in the clutch and use it for taking off from a dead stop.  The creeping I was having before seemed corrected.  Then when I used my clutch to shift normal from 1st to 5th it was better but still not right it. On downshifting it would be difficult forcing me to shift without the clutch, which was/is no problem just nuisance.  I rode all day today but the clutch/no clutch shifting was bugging me.  I did everything to experiment while riding  from while clutching applying foot pressure during release to pumping the lever to maybe increase pressure.  At times these would work but really never on down shifting.  Well on the last leg of our ride today I decided to give the clutch lever another try to downshift and there was a clunk and now when my bike is shifted into 3rd, either upshifting or downshifting it sounds like I'm grinding rocks.  The sound is not present in 1st or 2nd and far less noisey in 4th and 5th.  I had to limp the old girl home and now I'm beginning to think the clutch pressure issue was only part of my problems.  I've got a big ride planned for the first week in August and I'm wondering what direction to go.  I have not torn into it yet but I think I know what I'm doing tomorrow night.  I ride fast in the country but I don't beat the bike through the gears, do burn out or wheelies.  Did I just trash my transmission? If so, what would be the fix?  And if I have to replace the gears, should I go to a 6 speed? If so, which one do y'all recommend?  I just want to make the rest of the season.  I'm tearing it down and going through the whole bike and redoing it to my liking.  That'll be in a different section. ;D 

Thanks, D
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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2014, 01:34:59 AM »

Doesn't sound promising Doug.  Hate reading episodes like this.  Hoping it's not but in case you've got internal transmission problems here's on alternative to consider.

The six speed gear sets are expensive.  Gears and other parts from Harley vary a lot but the gears themselves can be pricey so would add up quickly (if yours is even repairable).  So check out ebay.  Watch for an 02-06 vintage five speed.  They can be had in the $350-450 range pretty much all the time.  Assuming your case is still good all you'd then have to do would be swap the gear set from donor case to your bike.  You could then even sell the new-to-you bare case and probably recoup $100-125. 

All else you'd need would be some gaskets and seals and a couple of bearings in the left side of the tranny case you'd not want to use over.  Can be all done for less than $500.  Unless you're just dying to spend close to three grand before you're done and have a six speed this is the cheapest way to fix a shelled five speed tranny anymore.
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Dead_Reckoning

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2014, 07:06:00 AM »

Doesn't sound promising Doug.  Hate reading episodes like this.  All else you'd need would be some gaskets and seals and a couple of bearings in the left side of the tranny case you'd not want to use over.  Can be all done for less than $500.  Unless you're just dying to spend close to three grand before you're done and have a six speed this is the cheapest way to fix a shelled five speed tranny anymore.

Pretty much Bang On Don. All said and done it was $3,500 for new SE 6-Speed.
Having to work with HD Shop 80+ miles away did not help. Maybe if it was local HD Shop, 3 miles away, I would have made different choices.
Also BB's and my favorite local wrench has been out of commission for 10 months now.
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cvoDoug

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2014, 08:37:28 AM »

Is there anyway that I can change the 5th gear to a taller gear?  I do a lot of trips and would really like to drop the rpm's on the long haul for a little better fuel economy.  I've heard that some years had different ratio's, if this is true does anyone know of the year that has the broadest range?
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cvoDoug

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2014, 08:39:27 AM »

Doesn't sound promising Doug.  Hate reading episodes like this.  Hoping it's not but in case you've got internal transmission problems here's on alternative to consider.

The six speed gear sets are expensive.  Gears and other parts from Harley vary a lot but the gears themselves can be pricey so would add up quickly (if yours is even repairable).  So check out ebay.  Watch for an 02-06 vintage five speed.  They can be had in the $350-450 range pretty much all the time.  Assuming your case is still good all you'd then have to do would be swap the gear set from donor case to your bike.  You could then even sell the new-to-you bare case and probably recoup $100-125. 

All else you'd need would be some gaskets and seals and a couple of bearings in the left side of the tranny case you'd not want to use over.  Can be all done for less than $500.  Unless you're just dying to spend close to three grand before you're done and have a six speed this is the cheapest way to fix a shelled five speed tranny anymore.

Thanks for the advice.  I'm looking on e-bay now.
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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2014, 09:01:00 AM »

While digging into your transmission issues, don't loose sight of your clutch problem.  From your description, I expect you still were not getting full release of the plates when squeezing the clutch lever.  You have to wonder if one problem led to the next problem...

Did you check your clutch pushrod travel with a dial indicator to know for certain you obtained the proper movement (minimum of .065 pushrod travel) when squeezing the clutch lever?  If you had sufficient pushrod travel, but still had clutch drag, I'd inspect the clutch disc's and spacers for flatness.  And, be certain you've not overfilled the primary lubricant.  I've found following the MOCO service manual specification for primary lubricant volume can result in clutch drag.  I fill my primary with no more than 34/35 oz. of lubricant.

 
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cvoDoug

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2014, 09:09:37 AM »

While digging into your transmission issues, don't loose sight of your clutch problem.  From your description, I expect you still were not getting full release of the plates when squeezing the clutch lever.  You have to wonder if one problem led to the next problem...

Did you check your clutch pushrod travel with a dial indicator to know for certain you obtained the proper movement (minimum of .065 pushrod travel) when squeezing the clutch lever?  If you had sufficient pushrod travel, but still had clutch drag, I'd inspect the clutch disc's and spacers for flatness.  And, be certain you've not overfilled the primary lubricant.  I've found following the MOCO service manual specification for primary lubricant volume can result in clutch drag.  I fill my primary with no more than 34/35 oz. of lubricant.

Could this cause the crunching noise  that I'm hearing or is this in addition to the reassembly.  I'm hoping when I open up the primary I see some debris in there that could explain but I'm pretty sure the noise would be in every gear and not just 3rd.  I've pretty much committed to the fact that I'll redo the clutch with the rebuild.

BTW......anyone have a good deal on a set of 5 speed gears? LOL  I'm a little freaked out about all the disclaimers attached to the ones listed on e-bay.   
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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2014, 09:21:22 AM »

Could this cause the crunching noise  that I'm hearing or is this in addition to the reassembly.  I'm hoping when I open up the primary I see some debris in there that could explain but I'm pretty sure the noise would be in every gear and not just 3rd.  I've pretty much committed to the fact that I'll redo the clutch with the rebuild.

BTW......anyone have a good deal on a set of 5 speed gears? LOL  I'm a little freaked out about all the disclaimers attached to the ones listed on e-bay.

If your clutch plates are dragging when you are shifting, and you do it enough times, fair to assume the crunching noises you are hearing are coming from your transmission.  But, the only way to know what you've got is to take it all apart and inspect the pieces.  Before you pull the clutch apart, measure your pushrod travel and make sure you have at least .065.  That is the starting point to troubleshooting a clutch drag issue.  If you don't have proper travel, you are probably still looking at a hydraulic issue.  If you do have proper travel, then you're looking for a mechanical issue (or overfilled lubricant).  Either way, your description sounds like you're likely going to go inside your transmission also.  I'd look at the transmission internals before I spent much time investigating a transmission replacement. Understand your problem first, then go look for the parts required to fix it!   :2vrolijk_21:

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cvoDoug

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2014, 09:43:12 AM »

OK, thanks for all the great advice!
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Puzzled

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2014, 10:27:43 AM »

I'd have to check however I recall paying something like $1500 for a Baker DD6 gear set for my 01.

Quote
Did you check your clutch pushrod travel with a dial indicator to know for certain you obtained the proper movement (minimum of .065 pushrod travel) when squeezing the clutch lever?

Good information right there. The amount of movement seems very little though.
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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2014, 10:50:04 AM »

Could this cause the crunching noise  that I'm hearing or is this in addition to the reassembly.  I'm hoping when I open up the primary I see some debris in there that could explain but I'm pretty sure the noise would be in every gear and not just 3rd.  I've pretty much committed to the fact that I'll redo the clutch with the rebuild.

BTW......anyone have a good deal on a set of 5 speed gears? LOL  I'm a little freaked out about all the disclaimers attached to the ones listed on e-bay.

I have the oe set from my 03 Heritage Springer.  Not sure if its the same as yours. Hadn't given thought to selling but maybe. Have to look at my receipt but I believe it was done at around 5k miles. No problem when it was removed.
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tweeter13

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2014, 10:55:17 AM »

Check with baker,  I belive they do sell a six speed for it.  This would give you the lower rpm for for your fuel mileage when cruising.  It won't be cheap but would be a nice upgrade. 

Your cluch issue would still need to be adresses so that's going to run some more $. 

I am sorry that you even have to deal with a decision like this at this time of year.   

15 models will be out soon could also trade it in.  But that's even more money,  owning a harley sure is fun! 
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cvoDoug

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2014, 11:36:02 AM »

Check with baker,  I belive they do sell a six speed for it.  This would give you the lower rpm for for your fuel mileage when cruising.  It won't be cheap but would be a nice upgrade. 

Your cluch issue would still need to be adresses so that's going to run some more $. 

I am sorry that you even have to deal with a decision like this at this time of year.   

15 models will be out soon could also trade it in.  But that's even more money,  owning a harley sure is fun!

That's a serious consideration. But I'll still have to spend the money to get it repaired before the trade in or sell.  I wouldn't feel right getting rid of a damaged bike, even though that may have happened to me.  I like the new bikes but throwing another 25k-30k on top of my bike seems crazy.  I just can't justify the dough at this time.  I have 80k miles on my bike and it's not really worth trying to trade it in.  So my plan was to do a rebuild on it this winter with new suspension components, go through the drive train and the custom touches that I desired.  Now it's looking like winter's coming early. LOL  I'm still trying to decide on what direction to go.  I was kind of planning on doing the 6 speed this winter along with the other up-grades. I just wasn't going to do it now.  I'm just weighing all my options.  I don't really trust my local dealer for quality or integrity.  I just think in general the service departments at Harley dealerships are weak.  I'm not saying all, but I've gone to mine and they really don't offer much in advice other than, "bring it in and we'll have a look".  I'm not going to name them, it's just my personal opinion.  Where I live these owners are about making money, not building relationships.  The staff is always pleasant on the retail and parts side but the service department guys are not as nice.  I get the time is money thing but come on.  We already overpay for an archaic piece of machinery because of our loyalty.  When and/or how does HD reciprocate?
I have some local buds that should be able to point me in the right direction also.  There's just a wealth of knowledge on here and I like learning about these thing for my own education so if or when something happens I know what direction to go.  There's many people on here that know their stuff and I mean no disrespect to those who work for HD or are members of any HD service department.  I'm just frustrated.
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sadunbar

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2014, 12:49:39 PM »

I'd have to check however I recall paying something like $1500 for a Baker DD6 gear set for my 01.

Good information right there. The amount of movement seems very little though.

Straight from the instruction sheet...   :2vrolijk_21:

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2014, 03:20:49 PM »

Understand your problem first, then go look for the parts required to fix it!   :2vrolijk_21:


Now there is the best advice I have heard in a long time.
Great response Scott!

SBB
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Classic Beast

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2014, 03:47:32 AM »

I paid $3000 for my DD6 but that was in Canada quite a few years ago. Its a great tranny but when you put more than 125 ftlbs of torque on it because of the helical gears the end thrust breaks the old style circlips on the trap door bearings, I just put in the upgraded trap door from Baker with a very solid retainer plate in so hopefully that will solve the problem. Ultima sells a 6spd for about $600 I have a few friends using this behind 120", 124" and 127" motors with no problems, it's not as nice a tranny as the DD6 but very close, for the money I think well worth it. This is on a EVO softail pre 1999. For the Cruise drive I have the DD7 but haven't installed it yet(a future project), not sure what other options are available, none of them cheap I would imagine.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 03:56:19 AM by Classic Beast »
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Classic Beast

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2014, 04:10:21 AM »

Just for your information DD6 refers to Direct Drive 6 which means in 6th gear the ratio is 1:1 same as the 5 gear in the stock tranny, to get a Lower ratio (higher speed at the same rpm) you will need to lower the primary ratio with a larger engine sprocket (28T vs 24T) or a clutch basket with less teeth. The 28T sprocket, longer primary chain and new adjuster comes in the Baker DD6 builders kit. Or you could decrease your final drive ratio with a 34T tranny Sprocket. The other option is to go to a OD6 which is an over drive tranny typically .86:1
« Last Edit: July 08, 2014, 04:12:28 AM by Classic Beast »
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cvoDoug

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2014, 07:12:29 AM »

Just for your information DD6 refers to Direct Drive 6 which means in 6th gear the ratio is 1:1 same as the 5 gear in the stock tranny, to get a Lower ratio (higher speed at the same rpm) you will need to lower the primary ratio with a larger engine sprocket (28T vs 24T) or a clutch basket with less teeth. The 28T sprocket, longer primary chain and new adjuster comes in the Baker DD6 builders kit. Or you could decrease your final drive ratio with a 34T tranny Sprocket. The other option is to go to a OD6 which is an over drive tranny typically .86:1

That OD6 makes more sense to me.  Why would any one want more gears just to have the same final drive?  The Ultima's an option, but the swing in price makes me worry about quality. (too good to be true?)  I've abandon the trip I was taking next month because I had plans to blow the bike apart in the winter and customize it to my liking rather than buy a new one so I'm thinking of pushing up the schedule.  Making a hasty decision on my trans now may cost me later.  I have my softail to putt around town on but it's nothing more than a bar-hopper now. 

I want to do do a mild custom.  My bike has 80k+ on the ticker and I'm going to go through the whole thing.  I planned on redoing the clutch just not the trans. lol  I've found a reputable mechanic and will be getting with him to freshen the motor up and discuss trans options as well as blacking out the motor and polishing the fins.  I had already talked to a paint/body/sheet metal guy about doing my fenders, tank and bags.  A real craftsman that going to fatten and stretch my tank and lengthen my rear fender with steel.  This will just give him more time to get it right and have it done for next riding season.  I'm not doing a taildragger just a 4-5 inch stretch on the bags to give it some style.  I've gone back and forth and still do about doing the build versus buying a newer bike.  I like the new bikes, but I like to be an individual and it doesn't make sense to me to drop 30k on a bike to put another 10-15k into it when I have one paid for that I can do that to.  There isn't anything about the newer bikes that make me go, "Wow! I have to have that!"  As long as I have tunes, cruise, comfort and reliability I'm happy.  Having the bike stand out in a crowd is just a nice ego boost.  I'm budgeting 20k for the build and I think I can shave that down.  I've put together a spread sheet for a budget and I'm at half that, so I think I'm where I'll need to be with it.

Thanks for all the input and more is always welcome.  I'm going to open up the primary and check the clutch travel per earlier suggestions and see if there's something rolling around in there.  You never know, right? I'll probably start the tear down.  I'll keep pics coming and start a new thread in a more appropriate section.

D
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Classic Beast

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2014, 08:28:41 AM »

if your running a swing arm frame you really want to think about a 2008 or newer as the handling is a big improvement
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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2014, 08:34:14 AM »

I have not heard of any problems with the Ultima 6speed and they have been out for a while. Even still you could replace a few of them for $3000, not sure if they are still $600 as that was a while ago. You can even get it with a kicker

http://www.midwestmc.net/KickerTrans6.pdf
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2012 Road glide ultra 103
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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2014, 08:37:41 AM »

See the link below, it doesn't have helical gears like the baker but it still seems to be fairly quiet.

http://www.ultimaproducts.com/6spdbuilder.htm
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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2014, 08:45:51 AM »

if your running a swing arm frame you really want to think about a 2008 or newer as the handling is a big improvement

Yeah, I've thought of this.  I'll be changing the swing arm bushings and adding a stabilizer as well as better shocks.  I'm considering air ride but I want to make sure of load rating for two and cargo weight ratings.  Seeing how I'm probably starting this now, I'll have plenty of time to research. LOL
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cvoDoug

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2014, 09:05:25 AM »

I have not heard of any problems with the Ultima 6speed and they have been out for a while. Even still you could replace a few of them for $3000, not sure if they are still $600 as that was a while ago. You can even get it with a kicker

http://www.midwestmc.net/KickerTrans6.pdf

I've been doing a lot of research on this and one thing I would do with the Ultima 6 speed is change the shifter prawl to the Baker design.  There's a guy that claims that where the main problem comes from with the trans imploding is the shifter prawl spring breaking and rattling around in the gear and chewing them up.  It makes sense since it's the weakest part of the mechanism and I am kind of a gorilla and don't always know my own strength.  I think that's what I most likely did to mine.  I have to agree with 1/3 the price it's hard to dismiss the Ultima.  I have also read that the gear sets are produced in the same place, just not  assembled in the same place. I know from my experience in the manufacturing world that there's a huge gray area when it comes to the stamp "Made in the USA".  By law only a certain percentage of the product needs to be actually made here for the stamp and as long as it's assembled here with those parts a manufacturer can say "Made in the USA".  Below is what I've found.  It's an eye opener, especially when we take so much pride in our rides.  I own a Harley because that's what I want.  I like the made in America statement but it's simply not true.  A large amount of the components that are on our machines are from overseas.  I'm ok with it, but when I can put a new trans in my car for the same price as my bike there's something wrong there.  I plucked the blurb below from the web.  Just makes you think.

  Here is the rundown on the fine print.

The rules that qualify a product for an official “made in USA” label are regulated by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). The FTC relies on a definition that a made in USA product be made of ” all or virtually all ” components made in America. The factors for qualifying American made claims include the percentage of manufacturing costs incurred in the US, how far removed any foreign components are from the finished product, and the site of final assembly. The FTC publication on complying with the made in USA standard suggests a minimum of 75% of total manufacturing costs be incurred in the USA for a credible made in America label. The Buy American Act defines a product as made in America for the purposes of government procurement if it is comprised of at least 50% American made components.
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Rooster

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2014, 03:17:44 PM »

if your running a swing arm frame you really want to think about a 2008 or newer as the handling is a big improvement
"09" is the first year of the newer frame. 07,08 old frame but 08 got the Brembos and the countdown to empty feature.
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FlaHeatWave

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    • CVO1: '01 FXDWG2 RED 103 6sp
    • CVO2: '05 FLHTCSE2 CHERRY
    • CVO3: '09 FLTRSE3 YELLOW 117/DD7
Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2014, 03:51:58 PM »

Yeah, I've thought of this.  I'll be changing the swing arm bushings and adding a stabilizer as well as better shocks.  I'm considering air ride but I want to make sure of load rating for two and cargo weight ratings.  Seeing how I'm probably starting this now, I'll have plenty of time to research. LOL

I highly recommend the GlidePro Bushing Kit.
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"I've read dozens of books about heros and crooks, and learned much from both of their styles"

04cvoron

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2021, 11:51:09 AM »

Anyone ever figure out the clutch issue?
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04cvoron

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Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2021, 02:29:12 AM »

I have the same bike Doug with the same issue
You probably have worked out by now but just gotta tell anyway.
Mine turned out to be the bearing at the trap door causing th whole shaft to move back and forth. Fixed mine with 40 $ in parts
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ltank

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    • CVO1: 2000 FXR4 S&S V111, CustomS.S. 2-1 exhaust, Primo-Rivera OD 6 speed, 49mm Custom Front End Ohlins 30mm Fork cartridges , Hyperpro Shocks, Barnett Scorpian Clutch
    • CVO2: 1983 88" Shovelhead Won the World of Wheels 1985 Sept 85 Issue of Hot Bike Mag
    • CVO3: 1989 FXRS, 1990 Custom 100" Shovelhead/ EVO
Re: NOW WHAT????
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2021, 01:20:02 AM »

I run Over Drive gearsets. Baker told me he wouldn't honor a the warranty of a DD6 on a S&S V124 on my 98 King.  My FXR4 has a Rivera 6 speed O.D. gearset with 96k miles no problems at all.
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