Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[glens]

Folks, here is the actual terms of the 'settlement' from the EPA's own website.

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/harley-davidson-clean-air-act-settlement

This part is interesting...

Injunctive Relief
Under the settlement, Harley-Davidson will immediately stop selling the tuners, buy back all of the tuners in stock at their dealerships and destroy the tuners. The company has also agreed to obtain certification from the California Air Resources Board for any tuners it sells in the future. These certifications will demonstrate that new tuners do not cause their motorcycles to exceed their certified emissions limits. Harley-Davidson will also conduct tests on tuner-equipped motorcycles and provide the results to EPA to guarantee that their motorcycles remain in compliance with EPA certification requirements for emissions.
Harley-Davidson will also ensure that all of its future motorcycle models intended for sale in the United States are fully certified by EPA.

Well, I'm guessing from the injunctive relief they are NOT buying back tuners from customers. CRAP!!! I could have used some pocket change. 

If you read on through, you'll see that they specifically will not be buying back any subject tuners that have already been sold to the end-user ("bold" emphasis mine):

13. Buyback and Destruction of Subject Tuners.  On or about September 1, 2016, and
again on or about November 1, 2016, Defendants shall offer Harley-Davidson dealers a buyback
of any Subject Tuner that has been supplied by Defendants to any Harley-Davidson dealers, that
is not covered by a California ARB Executive Order, and that has not yet been sold to the
ultimate purchaser.
a.
Defendants shall offer to buy back at no cost to such dealers each such
Subject Tuner. The buyback offer shall include, at a minimum, Defendants’ full sales
price to the dealer, and all shipping and handling costs.
b.
For each Subject Tuner that Defendants acquire from the buyback,
Defendants shall destroy by crushing such Subject Tuner and its calibrated maps.
Defendants shall destroy any Subject Tuner that they acquire from the buyback within 30
Days of the Effective Date or within 30 Days of receipt of such Subject Tuner, whichever
is later.

[HUBBARD]

This crap is over the top!  Later--HUBBARD

[ImBroke]

So do you think this will work out as an advantage to guys with a PowerVison?  I could pay for another "EPA" legal dyno tune and flash that to the bike if needed to pass EPA, then flash the "go fast" tune back to the bike.

[glens]

So do you think this will work out as an advantage to guys with a PowerVison?  I could pay for another "EPA" legal dyno tune and flash that to the bike if needed to pass EPA, then flash the "go fast" tune back to the bike.

Perhaps if you need to periodically pass an emissions test, but technically, if you've got any un-certified (or originally certified but later modified) parts in use in the emissions-related area of the powertrain, then it really doesn't matter whether or not you'd pass a sniff test because you're still outside looking in.  Certification has ostensibly been obtained by HD for specific combinations of various parts - when using the appropriate HD ECM flash - but only for those combinations.  If you pick and choose, or especially use aftermarket parts/tuning, then there's strictly no way to make it "legal" without going through the certification process.  And for that I believe it takes more than one example be supplied for testing and maybe they won't even look at one-offs anyway.  That'd be a good question to ask the EPA; "Can I get my bike certified after alteration?"  Along with "How much would it cost?"

[guppytrash]

So if tuners are in the bullseye what is next, exhaust?  Don't throw away that head pipe with the catalytic converter in it just yet!
Here comes emission testing for motorcycles.  Ugh!

[grc]

So if tuners are in the bullseye what is next, exhaust?  Don't throw away that head pipe with the catalytic converter in it just yet!
Here comes emission testing for motorcycles.  Ugh!

Yup, that's what I've been telling people for the past six years or so.

I remember all this same "woe is me" talk when emission controls were placed on cars.  Yes, there were some bad times at first.  Cars ran like chit, and some of the most popular performance models were killed off.  But eventually we wound up with cars that in totally stock form produced more power and better fuel economy than anything that had gone before.  These days the hard work has already been done by the auto industry, and all Harley has to do is learn how to copy that stuff without screwing it up.  They've made a mess of it so far, but now they have more incentive to learn how to do it right.  Let's hope they do it soon.

Jerry

[guppytrash]

Very true and well said Jerry.
Harley has been getting away with selling starter kits and we payed up to get them running. 
Now they are going to be forced to compete with what other motorcycle manufacturers are selling out of the showroom.
In the end we should all benefit.

[glens]

Yeah, but part of the allure of a Harley is the link to the past.  V-Rods or Streets don't do nothin' for me.  If HD has to go more in that direction it's going to have to be awful damned compelling.  We'll see, I guess.

[Yellow09SERG]

Interesting quote from EPA

[Twolanerider]

Yeah, but part of the allure of a Harley is the link to the past. 

That's crap and it's lazy on our part as a consumer.  Self defeating on our part as a consumer actually.  An "I want it so bad I'll hit myself in the toe with a hammer repeatedly just to keep enjoying the feeling" version of consumerism flies nowhere else.  Chevrolet reintroduced a Camaro that harkens to its past and still managed effective modernity.  Dodge did with Challenger and Ford has repetitively done it with Mustang.  Those are much more varied and complicated systems than any little two cylinder, relatively non-accessorized and still less Federally managed (comparatively) motorcycle from Harley.  Somewhere, somewhen, somehow and for some reason our obsession with potato-potato-potato has to stop being an excuse to let Mother Harley continually get away with design laziness and larceny.

I say thank goodness for the Federal standards or, in the current case, the even far more demanding European standards upcoming for  each of the next two years.  If Harley weren't forced by someone to modernize they would never consider their consumers reason enough to do it on their own.  Since the consumers have, too often, been too damned dumb, satisfied, frightened, lazy or financially self-injurious to make Harley only now approach the middle 1990s in automotive technology thanks to the Feds and the Europeans for making them do it for us.

Yes, Harley will get it wrong before they get it right.  Repeatedly.  I doubt they'll ever be really "current" in my riding lifetime.  But, if they survive, it's only thanks to the necessity of chasing regulatory standards that we're all still not riding some fourth generation Shovelhead (which, in a way, we still kind of are).

[Para Bellum]

all Harley has to do is learn how to copy that stuff without screwing it up.  They've made a mess of it so far, but now they have more incentive to learn how to do it right.  Let's hope they do it soon.

Jerry

Things HD couldn't copy without screwing it up: (feel free to add your own)
EFI
ABS
GPS
XM radio
Hydraulic clutch
Chrome parts
Paint
Hydraulic lifters
Cam bearings

[OBB]

Things HD couldn't copy without screwing it up: (feel free to add your own)
EFI
ABS
GPS
XM radio
Hydraulic clutch
Chrome parts
Paint
Hydraulic lifters
Cam bearings

Going out on a limb here so don't tighten the noose too much. I haven't had any issues with the XM and from what I've read all over the place it seems like it's always and antenna issue. Short of making something rather large and ugly like what's on most cars today, I don't think there's much of an issue with it. I sure as hell wouldn't want something that nasty on a $40k bike. If it's on the roof of my truck, that's one thing, on a bike though, nope.

[bbrown]

So if tuners are in the bullseye what is next, exhaust?  Don't throw away that head pipe with the catalytic converter in it just yet!
Here comes emission testing for motorcycles.  Ugh!

i agree.  Just what we need more government intervention.  What's next is right....maybe they will just ban motorcycles

[RoadDawg]

Looks like the EPA has made SE Super Tuners illegal. Harley has to pay a multi-million dollar fine and offer to buy back every Super Tuner ever sold! My dealer told me he fears they'll remove the software from their dyno too.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/08/18/harley-davidson-epa-emissions-settlement-defeat-devices/88944648/?siteID=je6NUbpObpQ-1MNqc2CVr0zXEsaZErpfsQ

[glens]

Harley has to ... offer to buy back every Super Tuner ever sold!

Haven't read that article but have read the legal documentation.  The only tuners they must buy back are "Pro" tuners, and only unsold ones from their dealers.  Look at the quote from the document in my 3rd or so reply above.