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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: efrbc1 on March 27, 2018, 09:23:06 AM
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2005 SEEG. Stock 103 motor except for Zippers 575 gear drive cams. Rear cylinder exhaust lifter failed (bearing). So far I need to replace the rear cam, lifter and oil pump. Not a lot of visible crap in the cam chest (the broken piece of lifter and 5-6 bearing rollers) but the cam lobe is scored as well as the oil pump. Have not yet drained the oil or opened the filter.
Oil pump was a Feuling 7000, looking to replace it with another 7000 or possibly a 7010. Cam is on the way and have a set of the AMS SE lifters. Ordering the S&S cam bearing set.
What more am I looking at to get this back together? This sucks.......
Chris
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When this happens metal debris is likely throughout the engine as the lifter failed over time. All bearings most likely have been compromised. At a minimum a new Pump, cam plate, and Oil cooler. Be sure drop the oil pan and clean out.
The blue S&S pump and plate are superior to the fueling.
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2005 SEEG. Stock 103 motor except for Zippers 575 gear drive cams. Rear cylinder exhaust lifter failed (bearing). So far I need to replace the rear cam, lifter and oil pump. Not a lot of visible crap in the cam chest (the broken piece of lifter and 5-6 bearing rollers) but the cam lobe is scored as well as the oil pump. Have not yet drained the oil or opened the filter.
Oil pump was a Feuling 7000, looking to replace it with another 7000 or possibly a 7010. Cam is on the way and have a set of the AMS SE lifters. Ordering the S&S cam bearing set.
What more am I looking at to get this back together? This sucks.......
Chris
How many miles on the Bike / Cam Chest Components?? What Lifters ??
+1 on S&S Pump & Plate
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When this happens metal debris is likely throughout the engine as the lifter failed over time. All bearings most likely have been compromised. At a minimum a new Pump, cam plate, and Oil cooler. Be sure drop the oil pan and clean out.
The blue S&S pump and plate are superior to the fueling.
I'm no expert but I have had quite a bit of experience having lost 4 TC 110s (2 motors each on 2 different bikes) to lifter and cam bearing failures. Sure thought I caught the last one before anything really bad happened. It made a slight chirping noise and I immediately shut it down and had it towed. After hearing it for just a few seconds the dealer principal, service manager and tech expected to find broken parts in the cam chest but did not. Just some slight scoring on the lifter roller and the corresponding cam lobe. Upon close inspection you could see a flat spot on the lifter roller so it was skating vs rolling sometimes hence the chirp I heard.
But they did find that the crankshaft bearings were toast. When you move the connecting rod you could feel some resistance and when you let it go it stayed in position.
Sure hope you are luckier but I would really suspect some damage to the crank with the amount of debris you found in the cam chest.
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55K + for mileage. Cam chest is Zippers 575 Red Shift with S&S gear drive. Feuling 7000 oil pump, stock cam plate and stock (B) lifters.
Is there a "flush" process to clean out what you can't see?
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The only thing you can clean that you can't see is the oil and by removing it you can be sure that's there isn't anything in there. The oil cooler cannot be cleaned out with 100% certainty that there isn't any contamination in it that is why I suggested it be replaced. The rest of the motor is a crap shoot. The damage is done and you have no way of knowing how much without a complete tear down of the engine. Do you have pictures of the damaged parts?
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I can take some pictures. Sent you a PM last night. I have a phone number for you from about 10 years ago. Please forward me contact info in PM reply.
Thanks.
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Get some help from johnsachs
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2005 SEEG. Stock 103 motor except for Zippers 575 gear drive cams. Rear cylinder exhaust lifter failed (bearing). So far I need to replace the rear cam, lifter and oil pump. Not a lot of visible crap in the cam chest (the broken piece of lifter and 5-6 bearing rollers) but the cam lobe is scored as well as the oil pump. Have not yet drained the oil or opened the filter.
Oil pump was a Feuling 7000, looking to replace it with another 7000 or possibly a 7010. Cam is on the way and have a set of the AMS SE lifters. Ordering the S&S cam bearing set.
What more am I looking at to get this back together? This sucks.......
Chris
ide use S&S oil pump & lifters,stock cam plate is fine.with out a tear down,its a crap shoot as far as getting all the debris out,im in florida too,let me know if theres anything I can help with
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Thanks to all for the suggestions. Really on the fence about what to do. Already ordered the replacement cam and already have the AMS Johnson Hi-lift SE lifters. Still need to drop the oil pan and open up the filter. I can do everything myself except rebuild the crank so I am looking at my options to get that done ($$). I was actually considering selling the bike before this happened so putting a ton of money in it does not make me happy.
Not in a hurry to get this done so I'm thinking that once I see what kind of debris I find I can make a more informed decision. Spoke with Jim (Metal Dragon) and he made a good point - by the time I heard the noise in the drivetrain, the damage had already been done.
Options are to clean it, replace the cam, cam bearings and oil pump, run it for a bit and sell it (probably $700) or tear it down, replace all bearings, rebuild the crank, replace the cam and oil pump ($2000). Then have to think about selling it vs keeping it.
Big question/consideration is the crank rebuild. Metal Dragon sends theirs off for a rebuild which includes pinning and welding the crank ($800). Original crank is (was) really good (almost no runout). Wondering if I can get it rebuilt without pinning and welding for less and is this a good option? Anyone know if this can be done and who to reach out to?
Chris
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Thanks to all for the suggestions. Really on the fence about what to do. Already ordered the replacement cam and already have the AMS Johnson Hi-lift SE lifters. Still need to drop the oil pan and open up the filter. I can do everything myself except rebuild the crank so I am looking at my options to get that done ($$). I was actually considering selling the bike before this happened so putting a ton of money in it does not make me happy.
Not in a hurry to get this done so I'm thinking that once I see what kind of debris I find I can make a more informed decision. Spoke with Jim (Metal Dragon) and he made a good point - by the time I heard the noise in the drivetrain, the damage had already been done.
Options are to clean it, replace the cam, cam bearings and oil pump, run it for a bit and sell it (probably $700) or tear it down, replace all bearings, rebuild the crank, replace the cam and oil pump ($2000). Then have to think about selling it vs keeping it.
Big question/consideration is the crank rebuild. Metal Dragon sends theirs off for a rebuild which includes pinning and welding the crank ($800). Original crank is (was) really good (almost no runout). Wondering if I can get it rebuilt without pinning and welding for less and is this a good option? Anyone know if this can be done and who to reach out to?
Chris
Like you said if you spend the $$$ to tear it down and fix the crank then you might as well keep it for a while. Just doing the minor stuff and selling it dumps the very likely future crank failure in the new owner's lap.
A third option might be to offer it for sale 'as is.' That way the new owner could build the motor as he would like.
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Personally I'd do the repair as cheap as possible. Drop the pan and replace the broken parts. If it runs ok either ride it as-is or unload it. If not then do the whole enchalada.
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Personally I'd do the repair as cheap as possible. Drop the pan and replace the broken parts. If it runs ok either ride it as-is or unload it. If not then do the whole enchalada.
Yes.... but....
I always hate; no, I avoid being the guy who dumps the known or likely problem off on the "next guy." Have been that "next guy" a few times. Don't like when it's done to me so not doing it to someone else.
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Trade it to the dealer. Next guys buys an ESP with it and when it grenades ESP replaces engine. Everyone sleeps at night.
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Yes.... but....
I always hate; no, I avoid being the guy who dumps the known or likely problem off on the "next guy." Have been that "next guy" a few times. Don't like when it's done to me so not doing it to someone else.
Right you are Don. :2vrolijk_21:
And as for the suggestion of trading it to a dealer so next owner can get and ESP . . . it is a 2005 model year bike. Don't have details but that might not be available.
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Trade it to the dealer. Next guys buys an ESP with it and when it grenades ESP replaces engine. Everyone sleeps at night.
On a now 13 year old bike? Bullchit. Plus, even if the bike were young enough to allow the option, who says the salesman isn't pitching the bike as being good-to-go. That, as would likely be the case, would make one think twice about spending extra for a service contract.
The "everyone sleeps at night" comes from everyone simply owning up to what's theirs and their responsibilities. My crap is my problem, not to be passed on to the next guy. I know now at least one site member I'll not being shopping used parts, bikes or work from.
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Right you are Don. :2vrolijk_21:
And as for the suggestion of trading it to a dealer so next owner can get and ESP . . . it is a 2005 model year bike. Don't have details but that might not be available.
What can we say Jerry. We're old farts. Are lenses see a different color than those of others.....
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For all we know the crank bearings are ok. Even if not pristine might still be just fine. Oil appearance and pan shrapnel will give a good indication. Everything in the camchest will be inspected and replaced as needed. Replace oil cooler and try it out. If ok, done. If not then engine comes out.
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No trades. Already have 2 and not looking to spend a bunch of money to keep 2. If I sell it, I'll only have one. Most likely will pull the motor and split the cases. Will check the crank for play/debris and make a decision then. Already have $300 in parts and still need bearings, gaskets and an oil pump. Not looking to dump on anyone and still not sure I'll sell it. Annual cost is insurance and maintenance (until this) so it's almost not worth selling it despite the repair cost.
Still getting quotes on the crank rebuild which is the only labor I will have to pay for so hoping to get this done in the $1000 to $1200 range. Looking forward to the adventure....... ???
Chris
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Good luck getting it sorted. Hope it's not too painful. Have fun when it's done!
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OUCH. THAT SUCKS.
I HAVE AN 2011 SESG. AND ALWAYS WORRIED ABOUT THAT HAPPENING
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For all we know the crank bearings are ok. Even if not pristine might still be just fine. Oil appearance and pan shrapnel will give a good indication. Everything in the camchest will be inspected and replaced as needed. Replace oil cooler and try it out. If ok, done. If not then engine comes out.
I'll go out on a very short limb and say with almost 100% certainty that the crank bearings are compromised. I've lost 4 motors due to this short of chit and all the debris that circulated through the system is a death sentence to bearings. It may not fail right away but it is compromised . . . no doubt.
Good luck getting it sorted.
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Crank main bearings, rod bearings or all of them?
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All should be checked. There is no 100% assurance this is done right without splitting the cases. Cranks are serviced by aftermarket and main bearings have had several updates so you will install the latest which are fine for the application. If I had it apart and a rod stuck by testing I would just order an S&S crank. The CVO 103 crank is discontinued and the replacement from HD is nowhere near as robust plus has a larger runout specification.
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An easy check is to pull the Crank Position Sensor,,, doesn't tell the whole tale,,, but it is a good indicator...
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Finally getting around to fix this and I have some questions.
Gaskets - HD or something else. Looking for quality not cost.
Thinking about changing the valve stem seals while it's apart. Again, HD or something better. Gonna have to take it to a shop to get them changed.
Pulling the motor. Never done this so I'm looking for advice from those who have. I have pulled the top ends (forgot how much fun this was) so I'm guessing pulling just the cases won't be too bad. No way to properly torques the top of the rear cylinder in the frame so I'm thinking of putting that back on before I install the motor. Maybe install both?? Advice?
Gonna clean the cam case, oil filter and cooler, thermostat (may replace) and clean the oil pan. Anything else to clean? Cases will be split and all bearings and seals will be replaced. New cam, lifters and cam bearings are here, getting ready to order the rest.
Thanks in advance for the advice. Really looking forward to this project.....NOT!
Chris
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Use genuine parts, all good.
Depending on your strength and your back would be a decision for pulling the motor whole or pulling the jugs and heads off.
Then there is the crank. I suggest having that serviced at this time. Hits a lot of potential issues and get it cleaned out.
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Ask JC what his 2010 motor was like after addressing the bottom end and you will want to do it. It's not cheap but the benefit is worth while.
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All that is needed is new main bearings, crank disassembled, cleaned, reassembled with honed rods and bearings if needed. Pinned welded and done. Splitting roller bearing motor, which is the way to keep it no timken needed, is an easy task. I use Loctite 518 to seal them. Crank needs to go out but the rest is easily accomplished. This is a <$1000 add in rough numbers.
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So, no issues one way or the other (top end vs. no top end) to R&R the motor from the frame. Good to know. Mine is an '05 so hopefully none of the "later" issues to deal with. One other question - I learned there is no gasket between the cases. What is the best way to seal them?
Thanks again.
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Permatex Motoseal is an option:
https://www.permatex.com/products/uncategorized/permatex-motoseal-1-ultimate-gasket-maker-grey/ (https://www.permatex.com/products/uncategorized/permatex-motoseal-1-ultimate-gasket-maker-grey/)
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So, no issues one way or the other (top end vs. no top end) to R&R the motor from the frame. Good to know. Mine is an '05 so hopefully none of the "later" issues to deal with. One other question - I learned there is no gasket between the cases. What is the best way to seal them?
Thanks again.
No need for gasket between the cases on the older bikes. No fluids pass between the cases that need to be sealed.
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No need for gasket between the cases on the older bikes. No fluids pass between the cases that need to be sealed.
There are o-rings on the dowel pins on the 05 cases, the oil returns from the top end through the case into the camchest.
We use Threebond 1184 to seal cases.
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There are o-rings on the dowel pins on the 05 cases, the oil returns from the top end through the case into the camchest.
We use Threebond 1184 to seal cases.
I read his post too quickly. Thought he was asking about engine case to transmission case.
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I read his post too quickly. Thought he was asking about engine case to transmission case.
I've done that a time or two myself! ::)
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I've done that a time or two myself! ::)
Yeah but you're smarter than me. That's why I don't get paid to fix 'em! :drink: :2vrolijk_21:
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Yeah but you're smarter than me. That's why I don't get paid to fix 'em! :drink: :2vrolijk_21:
I don't know if it's smart to make a living doing this but it sure is fun...(most of the time) :huepfenlol2:
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I don't know if it's smart to make a living doing this but it sure is fun...(most of the time) :huepfenlol2:
I've been saying bad words at one of my own for the last two hours. So tonight doesn't count in that "most of the time." :huepfenlol2:
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So, no issues one way or the other (top end vs. no top end) to R&R the motor from the frame. Good to know. Mine is an '05 so hopefully none of the "later" issues to deal with. One other question - I learned there is no gasket between the cases. What is the best way to seal them?
Thanks again.
Hondabond, Yamabond, there are others. Just Make sure the surfaces are super clean.
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Loctite 518
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Loctite 518 it is. Easy to find. Got it stripped down to the cases - hopefully pulling and splitting them tomorrow. Top end looks good no marks or scoring - can still see the crosshatch in the cylinders. A bit of carbon on the piston tops and heads but nothing concerning. Came apart pretty easy, some bolts were a bit tight (together for 13 years) but overall not too bad.
Changing main crank bearings. Is it necessary to use the HD bearing remove/install tools or will the old freeze the bearings warm the cases trick work. George's Garage has the tool for around $100 which could be a necessity to save $1000 cases.
Thanks
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Pulled the oil hoses from the oil cooler and the trans today. Both lines from the trans just fell apart as I was taking them off........ Guess its a good thing I needed to do this. $10 to replace them. Went to pull the lines from the oil cooler and I see one of them has a split in it so they'll have to go also. Priced them - $86.00!!!! For two 4 inch hoses!!! I see they are "molded" to make the bend from the housing to the cooler but really, $86??
Are there any other options for these??
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Almost done with the motor. All cleaned out and reassembled to the point it can go back in the frame. S&S cam plate and oil pump, AMS HyLift lifters, all new bearings and seals. Other "maintenance" items - replaced a bad exhaust stud and replaced the starter clutch. Oil cooler is soaking in Seafoam.
Last thing to clean is the oil pan. Book says to pull the rear wheel and slide it out the back. Looks like it may come out the front if I can lift the tranny up to clear the mounting lip. Anyone have experience with this? The motor is out so it's pretty easy to get at. It sure would be easier to slide it forward that to go through all the BS to pull the rear wheel and try to find someplace to support the back of the bike while I pull the pan.
The rebuild hasn't been bad. Getting the motor out wasn't fun and I'm sure putting it back in won't be either. Looking forward to being done with this.
Chris
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If you use the rear shifter While it’s all open check the shifter Pawl / seal good time to replace while it’s open
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Did that one a while ago. The Cometic seal is much better than the stock one!
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All done! Took it for a test ride yesterday and it runs like a champ. Probably $1200.00 to $1500.00 in parts and labor for stuff I couldn't do. I can only imagine what it would have cost (labor) to have a shop do it. Motor was pretty clean except for the oil pump, cam chest and the oil pan. Never did open the oil filter but I would bet it was pretty full of crap also.
Thanks to all for the ideas and advice. Made the job a bit less intimidating.
Chris