Topic: A bit of a nightmare-UPDATE (Read 4973 times)

wyobadger · « **on:** November 09, 2019, 01:56:46 PM »

I'm not sure if this is cool or not but I'm asking for help in diagnosing a sudden engine problem in my 2013 SERK. My closest dealer is 50 miles away and over a nasty mountain summit so I'm trying to ferret this out without making that trip!

The bike was not ridden for about the past month...I know, shame on me! I kept it on the battery tender, with a fresh, full tank of fuel. Yesterday was nice weather (by November Wyoming standards) so I attempted a ride. Bike started fine, sounded great. Rode 1 mile and suddenly/spontaneously it started sputtering and backfiring and killing (limp-home mode, lost a cyclinder).

Pulled the following codes in this order from DTC:
P0134-Front O2 Sensor Open/Not Responding
P0154-Rear O2 Sensor Open/Not Responding
P1353-Front Cylinder No Combustion EFI
P1511-EFI Power Management Mode
P2101-EFI Motor Circuit Range Performance (Actuation Error)
P0031-Front Heated Oxygen Sensor Low/Open
C1095-Front Brake Switch Open (ABS)
C1216-Rear Brake Switch Open (ABS)

Next, I cleared DTC's to determine and eliminate historical codes versus current issues. Attempted to re-start and run bike but it coughed and sputtered so much it wouldn't run on its own unless starter was cranking. I then re-retrieved DTC's and only code P0031 (Front Heated Oxygen Sensor Low/Open) was retained in diagnostic program.

Questions:
1. Is it correct to assume all codes that were successfully cleared by the above process were "historical" (from prior issues that have since been resolved...and there have been several!) and not relevant to current issue?
2. Is it reasonable to assume it's a matter of buying and replacing the o2 sensor (PN 27729-10) and seeing if that resolves the issue or is there more diagnostic that could be done to verify the cause?
3.I have a Power Commander 5 unit on this bike and I'm wondering if there's any corrolation between the Front Heated o2 Sensor reading and the PC-5?

I'd welcome any input from those who've been down this road.

Thanks,
wyobadger

Ironhorse · « **Reply #1 on:** November 09, 2019, 02:16:10 PM »

Try removing the Power Commander and see what happens. I've had a PC go bad on me.

wyobadger · « **Reply #2 on:** November 09, 2019, 04:13:13 PM »

Thanks Ironhorse. I had a PCIII fail on a previous bike years ago. That'll be my next action.

JKM · « **Reply #3 on:** November 09, 2019, 07:11:00 PM »

I believe the PC5 bypasses the oxygen sensors. On my 2008 there is a bridge plug at the O2 sensor. Check you O2 sensor connections

Also, you should post in the twin cam section as you will likely get much more insight there.

grc · « **Reply #4 on:** November 09, 2019, 08:52:40 PM »

An O₂ sensor would not cause the severe issues you described; odds are that code has nothing to do with your problem. As mentioneed by Ironhorse, the best first step would be to disconnect the PC-V and plug the harness directly to the ECM (stock setup). If you have O₂ sensor eliminators plugged into the connectors for the sensors, remove those and reconnect the wires to the sensors. Then see how it runs with everything returned to stock.

Jerry

wyobadger · « **Reply #5 on:** November 11, 2019, 12:12:13 PM »

Thanks Jerry, I fear something else besides the code issue too. I'll dig into it later this week or weekend when I'm off work again.

wyobadger · « **Reply #6 on:** November 15, 2019, 10:41:13 AM »

Pulled the PC V, reconnected harness to ECM...no change. Still getting only p0031 DTC. Looks like something more serious...damn. I'll update when I have more info. This bike had a lifter failure repaired (new cams, lifter, oil pan, etc) about 3000 miles ago. Wondering if this is related in any way or I'm just not lucky with this engine. Sadly, HD shop is my next step.

JKM · « **Reply #7 on:** November 15, 2019, 10:51:43 AM »

Did you reconnect the O2 sensors as well when you when disconnected the PCV?

Hoel Motors · « **Reply #8 on:** November 15, 2019, 06:44:27 PM »

Sounds like a bad power commander to me......... I also lost a lifter and cam about 10,000 miles ago on my 2012

wyobadger · « **Reply #9 on:** December 03, 2019, 03:29:10 PM »

It's worse than I thought. Dealer just informed me that valves and pistons "collided" and are now bent. Not even sure what he's talking about? Less than 2000 miles ago I had lifter and cam failure repaired by this dealer (along with ancillary issues) and now a second catastrophic engine failure. Bike has 35K on it but two major engine failures so close together have me feeling pretty shook about this bike and HD in general. Service manager said he'll get back to me with more info but basically he said, "it sucks to be you." Yeah, it does...

johnsachs · « **Reply #10 on:** December 03, 2019, 05:09:44 PM »

Quote from: wyobadger on December 03, 2019, 03:29:10 PM

It's worse than I thought. Dealer just informed me that valves and pistons "collided" and are now bent. Not even sure what he's talking about? Less than 2000 miles ago I had lifter and cam failure repaired by this dealer (along with ancillary issues) and now a second catastrophic engine failure. Bike has 35K on it but two major engine failures so close together have me feeling pretty shook about this bike and HD in general. Service manager said he'll get back to me with more info but basically he said, "it sucks to be you." Yeah, it does...

Unfortunately it sounds like the dealer that repaired it last time already has it apart. Judging by what he told you, if possible, try to get someone who knows what they're doing, and NOT an employee of that dealer, look at it and give you a second opinion as to the cause. Valves and pistons colliding is not common, unless you beat the engine to death, engine never cleaned properly from the last repair, or parts improperly installed when you had the cam and lifter repair.

John

grc · « **Reply #11 on:** December 03, 2019, 05:27:45 PM »

Quote from: johnsachs on December 03, 2019, 05:09:44 PM

Unfortunately it sounds like the dealer that repaired it last time already has it apart. Judging by what he told you, if possible, try to get someone who knows what they're doing, and NOT an employee of that dealer, look at it and give you a second opinion as to the cause. Valves and pistons colliding is not common, unless you beat the engine to death, engine never cleaned properly from the last repair, or parts improperly installed when you had the cam and lifter repair.
John

^^^ What John said. Valves sticking and colliding with each other or the pistons hasn't been a major issue with the 110's since about 2009, once Harley addressed the valve guide issues common on the 2007/2008 heads. I wouldn't be surprised if this failure is related to the earlier lifter failure, but unless this dealership is the most honest place on the planet the odds are they won't admit it. A second opinion would be nice, but I'm not sure how practical it would be to get the bike to another shop? Good luck, I hope things turn out well.

Jerry

Phantom309 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 04, 2019, 02:35:48 AM »

I wouldn't trust a dealer to even put air in a tire these days. I was going to suggest a simple inspection of your front plug wire ... they have a tendency to rub under the tank from vibration and ground out so that = no spark on that cylinder. I cut some small pieces of vacuum hose and zip-tied them around any parts on both my wires that could rub. I'm sure if you actually had a catastrophe like valve to piston clash you would know it & shut it down immediately and not even try to run it again til it was sorted out ... a mechanical noise like that would be hard to miss.

No expert here, but IF your problem was what I mentioned you would probably smell raw fuel or a "rich" condition when it acted up. I would guess no spark & raw fuel sent through the cylinder could possibly foul your 02 sensor.

If the dealer is telling you it is absolutely valve to piston clash .... be sure to actually see proof with your own eyes before you agree to any work. I trust dealers for nothing because of past experiences and would never use them unless it was warranty work. If you have to pay at your own expense, I'd shop around for a reputable independent shop for repairs versus the dealer .... just my $.02.

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #13 on:** December 04, 2019, 08:28:50 AM »

Quote from: wyobadger on December 03, 2019, 03:29:10 PM

It's worse than I thought. Dealer just informed me that valves and pistons "collided" and are now bent. Not even sure what he's talking about? Less than 2000 miles ago I had lifter and cam failure repaired by this dealer (along with ancillary issues) and now a second catastrophic engine failure. Bike has 35K on it but two major engine failures so close together have me feeling pretty shook about this bike and HD in general. Service manager said he'll get back to me with more info but basically he said, "it sucks to be you." Yeah, it does...

To me the most likely cause is your dealer did not put the cam chest, lifters and pushrods back together correct after the last repair. For example did he set the push rod length correct? Or on adjustable push rods did he get the locking nut tightened correctly? No reason this should have happened except poor repair work the first time. Not sure I would let them repair it unless, they are paying for the repairs.

Valves do not hit pistons unless it was put together wrong.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #14 on:** December 04, 2019, 09:43:05 AM »

Go in and see the parts and snap a few photos of the damaged parts. This motor ran fine for a while after the initial repair? It may be a good time to be proactive and get the bike to another dealer or an independent shop better yet. I do know a very good independent shop in Idaho Falls area if that helps. He has a dyno and is very experienced with full motor rebuilds.

wyobadger · « **Reply #15 on:** December 04, 2019, 05:22:08 PM »

Thanks for the input guys. I asked the dealer to put their diagnosis, identified cause, and options for resolution in writing. I can't help but think this is related to the recent lifter/cam failure. I put on a little over two thousand or so miles after that repair I confess I'm a bit skeptical about honesty from all service providers so I want to have something to hang my hat on when it comes time to discuss the next step. I will take the suggestion to get pictures of the damage too. Then I do think I'll get a "second opinion" from an independent shop. There's one less than two hours away down in Colorado I might try.

HD Street Performance · « **Reply #16 on:** December 05, 2019, 09:43:24 AM »

Sounds like a good plan.
Notoriously common is for lifters to be replaced after a failure without proper cleaning of the oil system. That said stuck valves , rear exhaust, still occurs just less frequently after the 2008 program fix. This is a separate issue

wyobadger · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2019, 05:52:44 PM »

To their credit, the dealer very promptly provided a written response to my questions, along with three repair options ranging from $1325 to $2400, at my expense. They basically said either excessive carbon build up or over-revving was the cause. Not sure about either of these. The rpm limit set by the MOCO is, I believe, about 5400-5500 rpms. How is it even possible that could cause valve collision??? Also, just a few months back they did the cam and lifter repair so I'm struggling to understand how excessive carbon build-up is even a possible cause. I wrote them back asking them to address other possible causes like contamination of the engine or improper reassembly during the recent cam/lifter repair. I thanked them for their prompt response and said I'd be over to visually inspect and photograph the damaged parts in order to make a more informed decision about how to proceed. Thanks again for your input guys. I'll keep you informed.

wyobadger · « **Reply #18 on:** January 01, 2020, 08:05:02 PM »

Latest update: I went to the HD dealer, talked with their "top mechanic" about my bike's issues, looked at and photographed the damaged parts, then loaded it up on a rented trailer and drove it to an independent shop (Sanger's Cycles) in Ft. Collins, Colorado and laid it all out for them. I asked them to detemine the cause and extent of the current issues before commencing repairs. The shop owner called last week confirmed the valve collision and zero compression in the front cylinder (due to slightly bent valve). He also inspected the complete engine and found that the cam chain tension was "collapsed". He attributed the valve collision to this cause and is "confident" that replacement of the bent valve (and several other related gaskets), removal of carbon deposits and a couple other minor tweaks will correct and restore this bike to full running order. He quoted a price that was less than half what the HD dealer wanted to charge me. And they never even determined why the collision happened so they'd have put it back together with the same collapsed cam chain! That would have been another engine disaster in no time.

I had used Sanger's Cycles when I first bought the bike in 2015 for some other work and they did a great job then. However, they are twice as far from my home so I started using a closer HD dealership. That's on me. Wish I would have stayed with the independent shop all along. But, I have learned my lesson. Quality and competence are worth my time and money.

Wyoming in winter is not riding season so I'll have to give a final report on this saga once the roads clear in the Spring and I can put some miles on this repair. Thanks for riding with me through this. I appreciate the wisdom and experience in this group.

Ride on,
wyobadger

rayson56 · « **Reply #19 on:** January 02, 2020, 12:07:45 PM »

That's great news for what started out as a crappy situation. Trust goes a long way in these situations. You should be able to sleep better now knowing that your baby is in trustworthy hands.

Come on Spring!

bakon · « **Reply #20 on:** January 07, 2020, 08:23:23 AM »

Either they used a bad part, or contaminated from previous work. Or you beat it. No reason for the valve to hit piston otherwise. Bummer all the way.

ghost183 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 19, 2020, 06:45:15 PM »

possibly swapped intake and exhaust pushrods???

they are NOT same length rods..

but he'll never admit it

JCZ · « **Reply #22 on:** January 19, 2020, 07:10:35 PM »

People used to ask me......why do you drive all the way to the bay area (Metal Dragon) when there's five Harley Davidson dealerships closer to you? At Harley Davidson of Sacramento I rode in on my 04 SEEG and the service writer asked me "is this an Ultra Classic?". Are you kidding me??

The time before that, I had a stock OEM tire that wore down very fast just on the left up to the center of the tire. They brought all of the techs out and their lead tech. tells me "that's because they're building the crown in the roads higher now". Really?? I got off of my bike and walked through the double doors to the service dept. as they're telling me customers can't go back there. I tell them "I'm looking to see if it's happening to other bikes....this is a factory defective tire and needs to be replaced by Dunlop. If what you are saying then why is my back tire wearing evenly and it's older than the front tire?

Listen, independent shops have to provide quality service of their doors aren't going to stay open for very long. Take it to an independent shop......somebody that's been working on motorcycles for years and has the experience and didn't just graduate from MMI six months ago.

Now if you have some time on your hands, I can tell you how I really feel about dealerships!

CVODON · « **Reply #23 on:** January 19, 2020, 08:14:14 PM »

I have had more than my share of dealer problems over the years. But we have lost one totally and the other that I preferred sold and moved to a terrible to access location. So now if I need a $1.00 widget I have to drive an hour in traffic vs 10 minutes before. So if we don't support them they go away and that is not good. A poor dealer is better than no dealer. Independent's are sometimes good, sometimes bad just like dealers but never have the inventory of a modern HD dealership. So double edged sword. Hate them but need them.
If for no other reason, we need dealers to buy bikes from, drink coffee at and pick-up copies of the new paper catalog.

Author Topic: A bit of a nightmare-UPDATE (Read 4973 times)