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CVO Technical => Intake/Exhaust/ECM => Topic started by: Unbalanced on August 15, 2005, 02:05:25 PM
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All,
Both sets of my Rhineharts are going back to the dealer. Rear header pipes keep breaking and the NEW one less then 45 days old has cracked and broken off at the starter again. Apparently the new one doesnt fix anything. I am getting an RMA with the place I bought them to get credit towards new pipes. Rhinehart/ BuB have a new rear cylinder pipe in the works that wont attach to the starter, but as I told them to many hassles to want to stay a customer even though Karen in the warranty dept has been just super to deal with. I am over it and moving on.
Still considering VanceHines True Dual or the Thunder Headers with Heat Shields and fake 2nd pipe for the look.
All comments / opinions / Suggestions welcome.
Thanks in advance,
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There are advocates for several different systems on this site - Freedom Pipes, Rineharts, V&H / SE Pro Pipes, Thunderheaders, D&D FatCats, etc. Try the search feature, you will get a ton of opinions.
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Not looking for the single pipe exhaust look only the dual look in comparing ThunderHeader with Fake vs True Dual. I had the single pipe look with the white bros E series on my ultra and really prefer the dual look.
I have heard the Thunderheader dies on the top end and others say its better than the VH True dual. Those are the specific opinions I am after have read the other reviews.
Thanks
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All,
My Rhineharts are going back to the dealer.
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Hubbard oh Hubbard,
Yes I am sorry these were installed correctly and I love the way they sound. Both sets were originally installed for me at the shop where I purchased them and well I have had to change out some pipes here and there and even had a shop do it one other time when I was having some other work done.
I will post some pictures for you and yes the washers were used correctly, no its not touching the primary its just a weak weld which is why they are going away from this implementation they know its an issue with the number of breaks they are having only I am not willing to keep replacing the rear cylinder exhaust pipe.
This last one was the supposed fix these issues with the 2 degree change in it. The one before this was claimed to be from a bad welding machine .. I had a 1 in 3 shot of getting that pipe. I will say their customer service is 2nd to none, but I would rather not worry bout it breaking again or waiting for fix_03 that doesnt connect to the starter or wasting any more of my time fixing it over and over.
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, Unbalanced,
OK, Bro! It appears you did everything right. Still puzzles me though. I wish you the best with whatever exhaust you choose. That's why we have different products. Competiton makes the world go round, right? Later--HUBBARD
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Clearance on the Inner Primary.
Its my finger stuck between the pipe and the inner primary. I know it looks small but I wear a mens size 15 ring. Plenty of space
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A better picture of the pipe without the bracket.
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The missing Gem.
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Would the Freedom Pipes work better? I don't seem to recall many issue's being posted on this board by their user's....... [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
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D&D Fat Cats also has the performance of the 2 into 1 exhaust with a dummy left side for the dual look.
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Have used 11 sets of Rinehart's over the past few years with 0 problems. Have installed all of them myself the correct way.....not saying the installation on these failures was incorrect, but sure makes one wonder.
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Would the Freedom Pipes work better? I don't seem to recall many issue's being posted on this board by their user's....... [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
5500 miles on the Freedom equiped SEEG
NO PROBLEMS
Rineharts and Freedom pipes made by the same pipe builder.
BLM777 has made a good point!
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Hubbard,
I wouldnt be looking for other pipes if these weren't so problematic for me. I know your not having issues with yours since the repair, but your right competition does allow us choices and I wouldnt be having to make an alternative or 2nd choice if I weren't having issues.
My wanting other pipes has nothing to do with sound or look cause those I am happy with actually its why getting rid of them is tough to do, but reliablity and longevity is something I am not seeing from them and when I pay a good sum of money and have nothing but continual issues it becomes time to move on.
JCZ Thanks for the heads up I did not know D&D had a fake pipe I hadn't been considering it, but I will tomorrow when I get some free time to get a better look at them and do some research on output.
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Hubbard,
I wouldnt be looking for other pipes if these weren't so problematic for me.
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I have 12000 on my SEEG with Rhineharts that I took off my 03 SERK and it had 10000 on it and have not had a problem DelNel [smiley=bigok.gif]
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Thanks for the link to the article(s)
I would love to see a more direct comparison of the pipes ie
D&D FAT Cats vs Bassani vs. White Brothers E series vs. Thunderheader vs Pro Pipe
Rhineharts vs. True Dual vs Hooker vs Kerker duals vs Bassani duals
Keep them in class and then let all the numbers be for the same bikes and then allow us to compare them ourselves. Don't think that will ever happen, but that would be the ideal way to see these tests in a heads up fair competition.
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, Unbalanced,
You stated you really liked the appearance and sound of your Rineharts. As Gerald Rinehart is a personal friend of mine, I would opt to call him, on your behalf, if you so desire. Something is not right with this picture. I am confident Gerald will resolve this situation for you. You have already gone through R&R 5 or 6 times. What's one more change out, if this one works? What have you got to lose? Your call. Please advise. Later--HUBBARD
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my rineharts broke right above the starter also - big gaping hole you could shove a 1/2 dollar piece thru - the dealership 2 weeks ago started process to replace the pipe - as of yesterday BUBs is telling them it will be 2 to 3 more weeks before I expect to see a replacement pipe. This SUCKS.
ordered in at the same time a Boarzilla (rated for 120 hp on up only) and this is a pipe not for the mild mannered - but this pipe works. Rineharts were a good sounding pipe - but if you never noticed the gapping hole and crack - you would have a major problem in an incubation stage.
just my opinion - if you make that call to them - tell them 2 to 3 weeks is BS and they are majorly screwing up a re-sale to another owner by their replacement proceedures - tell em its an order placed by Gary at Granite Mountain Harley Davidson their number is 770-785-3999 - or he can just give me full credit back and I will send em the rest of the system in the original container and original packing material.
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Hubbard,
Shovel is correct they have no replacements to send out if they wanted to even if I wanted to give that a try again. They know the new pipe is not fixing the probelm and that is why they have a pipe that is going to be mounting to the primary in a different spot from HD to get away from the patent and that is not set to go off till next week. I am not sure what Gerald can do for me as the quandry doesnt leave a lot of options at this time, but I have not done the R&R it is setup to be done tomorrow in Daytona Beach at Millers Custom Parts.
I told the lady in the R&R portion that I would be happy to beta test the new ones since I have had some many issues, she took my name / number and said she would let me know. It never hurts to see what Gerald will do please let me know what he says / thinks. I will PM you my cell number.
Thanks in advance,
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Damn that's a shame.
Otis introduced me to Gerald this weekend at Bristol.
Seemed like a good guy.
Wish that Tater (Hubbard) could have talked to him about that on Sunday!
Give Hubbard a chance to call Gerald, TATER DELIVERS!
[smiley=cherry.gif] [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=pumpkin.gif] [smiley=jalapeno.gif]
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I ordered my D&D Fat Cats today.
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Has anyone gone the D&D Fatcat route on there 103 that is still totally stock other than the SERT and SE Air Cleaner??? I'd love to here your thoughts on this system.
I read that article on the Bub, D&D, and Rage System but that motor was not a stock 103. There were cam changes etc....
Unbalanced, Please keep us updated on the results you get out of the D&Ds, I think this may be the exhaust system i go with also.... Thanks [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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HDJAMS,
I will be able to tell you what a stock bike runs like w/ (SE A/C / RT / Pipes) The only thing is that I ordered the larger baffle per their suggestion at D&D.
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Has anyone gone the D&D Fatcat route on there 103 that is still totally stock other than the SERT and SE Air Cleaner???
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Thanks JCZ...... I did see that post, but it says a "Zippers Performance Package" was used. so that's not the same as i have or will be using.
All i want is the Exhaust system in this case i'm refering to the D&D FatCat, a Screaming Eagle performance air filter kit, and the SE Race Tuner. Also as "Unbalanced" stated, im also going with the performance baffles as recommeded by the D&D Tech person.
That's it.... no other mods to the motor.
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Thanks JCZ...... I did see that post, but it says a "Zippers Performance Package" was used. so that's not the same as i have or will be using.
All i want is the Exhaust system in this case i'm refering to the D&D FatCat, a Screaming Eagle performance air filter kit, and the SE Race Tuner. Also as "Unbalanced" stated, im also going with the performance baffles as recommeded by the D&D Tech person.
*****That's it.... no other mods to the motor.*********
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Wonder how long that's going to last?
[smiley=cherry.gif]
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All i want is the Exhaust system in this case i'm refering to the D&D FatCat, a Screaming Eagle performance air filter kit, and the SE Race Tuner. Also as "Unbalanced" stated, im also going with the performance baffles as recommeded by the D&D Tech person.
*****That's it.... no other mods to the motor.*********
*************************************************
Question: Wonder how long that's going to last?
[smiley=cherry.gif][/quote]
_________________________________________________________
Answer: Until he either runs up against a "Hillbilly Rocket Rider" or takes a venture to some place like "Maggie Valley". [smiley=laugh.gif]
[smiley=banana.gif]
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You need to try the Samson Calibers
Its a 4 stage pipe and really adds the horspower.
I would never go back to rhinehart.
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How much were the sampsons? Any dyno facts to back up what you feel in the seat of your pants?
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How much were the sampsons? Any dyno facts to back up what you feel in the seat of your pants?
I'm with you Mr. Striker!
Where are the dyno results?
Where is the real world proof?
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Any dyno facts to back up what you feel in the seat of your pants?
Sometimes all I care about is that feeling in the seat of my pants.
(hmm, I don't think that came out right)
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You need to try the Samson Calibers
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Yeah, 'er 'uh, bbrown,
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Could anyone help me with the phone # to customer service with Rinehart .
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Could anyone help me with the phone # to customer service with Rinehart .
Try
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My D&D Pipes have been shipped and are expected to arrive this week. (promises / promises)
Stay Tuned you might say.
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Thank you twolanerider Customer Service will be sending out a new pipe Monday, they do not want the old pipe back. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Unbalanced-I am sure you will be a happy camper with those D&D Fat Cats 14K, no problems and I am happy with the quality of the product as well as the sound.
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Hotline,
Do you have the stock baffle or the larger baffle? Did you do a dyno on the bike with the pipe before and after the install of the pipes.
Have you done any mods at all cam / heads anything else?
Tomorrow they install my pipes as they came in today :).
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Unbalanced, Are you going to install the fake left side or go solo??? Did Hotlineguy send you pics of his set-up? His looks pretty nice... I still haven't figured out if if i want to go solo or get the falsie yet..... Post a picture of yours when you get that pipe on and lets see how you like it. Later.... [smiley=banana.gif]
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HDJams,
I went with Falsie for now and pictures are in the D&D Fat Cat Thread I started yesterday.
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HDJams,
I went with Falsie for now and pictures are in the D&D Fat Cat Thread I started yesterday.
Unbalanced, how "false" are the falsies? What I'm wondering about is somthing I couldn't quite get detail of (for sure) from the photos.
Does the quiet pipe actually have a normal connection to the rear cylinder's pipe which is just closed off (in one pipe or the other)? Or does the quiet piple simply butt up close to the live pipe but not make a standard connection?
What I'm wondering about is if the quiet pipe can be removed leaving the 2-1 in place on the bike so that the single set gives you the option of swinging either way. Never having looked at 2-1 pipes at all closely before I simply don't know how they might commonly be manufactured.
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It butts up against it not connecting to it just very close you can use it either way. Which way you would want to swing is really more info than I needed though .... TMI
In all seriousness you can take the quiet side off or leave it on and its only 4 bolts to do it .... 15 minutes max to choose the way you like it.
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In all seriousness you can take the quiet side off or leave it on and its only 4 bolts to do it .... 15 minutes max to choose the way you like it.
Thanks very much. For me anyway that makes it a more interesting option when the need arises next time.
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I gave the Rineharts a good look last night and sure enough, I have a stress crack started at the mounting bracket. What a joke. I only have 3800 miles on the bike due to my surgery in the spring. I thought they made a better product than that.
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Question. I was planning on riding up to the HOG rally in Chattanooga tomorrow. Is the bike ok to ride with the small stress crack forming? Would it be smart to remove the mounting bolt so it doesn't get any worse at that location? Any ideas would be helpful. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Question. I was planning on riding up to the HOG rally in Chattanooga tomorrow. Is the bike ok to ride with the small stress crack forming? Would it be smart to remove the mounting bolt so it doesn't get any worse at that location? Any ideas would be helpful.
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Laker,
I would personally remove the bolt as I woudlnt want any stress on that pipe since it is being leveraged by that bracket and that is where your issue is. I won't say it would hurt anything if you take it, but I rode mine quite a ways before I got home.
If I were you and had the ability to quickly remove the pipe and bring it to the local welding shop and throw a weld on it and then only put the bolt back on hand tight or loose with a lock nut or 2 nuts so it didnt move.
2 cents worth
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Laker if the nut is left loose it'll likely just vibrate off.
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Thanks for the help guys. I guess I will just loosen the nut a little more (wasn't overly tight to begin with) and hope it doesn't get too much worse. If it does, then I will hit up the HD shop in Chattanooga to replace it as that is where I got this bike from.
Again, I appreciate the help!! [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Glad I didn't buy RhineHarts. Sure seems like they have Quality issues.
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Glad I didn't buy RhineHarts. Sure seems like they have Quality issues.
Yeah, 'er 'uh, cei600,
I'm glad you didn't buy RINEHARTS, too. That equates to another Harley out there I can thump! I still don't think it's a quality issue. I think it's an installation issue. Later--HUBBARD
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Glad I didn't buy RhineHarts. Sure seems like they have Quality issues.
I think you will find that any of the pipes that attach to the bracket from the starter can be subject to cracking, including the stock pipes from H-D. That entire mounting system needs to be redesigned - too much flex, unsupported weight between bracket and rear pipe hanger, etc. Add in the extra bends and welds in that area, and it is a recipe for failure.
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I think you will find that any of the pipes that attach to the bracket from the starter can be subject to cracking, [bgcolor=Yellow]including the stock pipes from H-D[/bgcolor].
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Yeah er uh, whatever! [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
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Hubbard,
My question of BuB and of Gerald is was and remains if its not a design flaw why did they recently change the pipe 2 degrees in this last go around and are now in the process of changing the way they mount the pipe.
If its a problem of everyone installing it wrong wouldnt it be better to put out a tech document or add a flyer to the instructions of new pipes going out?
I really dont want to beat this dead horse any longer I am just looking for a rational answer if its not a design flaw.
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OK, lets get to the reason you have a bracket off the starter. In '96 Harley decided they needed this to stop the factory pipes from cracking at the "Y" pipe. The weld would literally fracture because of lack of support. They then offered it as a retrofit for older models. This solved the problem of the stock pipes fracturing, but does not address the way Rhinehart has designe their mounting. I saw some issues in the way the local shop mounted mine, and loosened the entire assembly. I removed the mufflers first, and immediately noticed how much the heat sheilds were binding just to fit to the pipes. I did not pull the head pipes, but rather took all the stress off the mounts including the mounting point of the pipes to the heads. Once I had everything so I could move it, I tried to let everything align naturally, and kept alternating between the head pipe mounts and the starter support tightening a little more at each point. So far at 6k I don't see problems.
As far as running with the bolt loose at the starter, I would believe you will be creating more stress on the pipe, and possible damage to the finish on your inner primary if the pipe were to bounce against it. Now having said that, the issue I see with the Rhinehart design, is that it doesn't allow for the movement of the motor on the rubber mounts. One of the things I have noticed is that the mount under the front of the motor is acting like a piston to relieve motor vibration, thus as the motor is flexing vertically, the mount on the pipe at the started is stressed. I don't know if I will still have a fracturing issue, but I don't believe the design allows for another option if you allow the pipe to "float" at the starter mount.
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OK, lets get to the reason you have a bracket off the starter.
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Nice Pics Unbalanced.
I have a twin to that. My pipe weld broke last week in Monument Valley. I had to limp into Durango to get help. HD dealer could not fix. I found a structural welder and he patched it back to get me home.
I am going down to my local dealer and see if he will replace the pipe without the bracket. I plan to fashion a a bracket that is not welded to the pipe. I will clamp it to the pipe on both sides of the bracket and bolt it back to the starter.
I think the issue is different heating and cooling coefficients at the weld, compounded by the vibration of the 103. The pipe wall is too thin to be a structural support with that much vibration. The cracks I see in your pipe indicate the welder may have been to hot originally. Probably a stick or mig weld. They should use a tig rig and purge the pipe with argon during the process.
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Craw,
I gave them 6 chances to get it right now I have the D&D Fat Cats they arent going to go to a hand done weld since its a production item. People can only hope the next revision rev 3 of the rear pipe is better. Hell if they copied the way VH mounts their pipe this would prolly be a null issue at this point. I will take a look at the pipes again when they come out with this new mount they say they are working on, but honestly I am happy with my 2 into 1 with the falsie atm.
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All,
Both sets of my Rhineharts are going back to the dealer.
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MYCVO,
I think its a good pipe only criticism from me will be on the poor quality of chrome. Works great gives good numbers consistent from bike to bike. All I know is I never wanna ride on your right side when your jumping on it :) My buddies dyna makes my ears ring every time we take it out.
Occupational Hazard with the Thunder header
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MYCVO,
I think its a good pipe only criticism from me will be on the poor quality of chrome.
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BTW .... Talked to BUB today.
They have a new mount that uses the starter mount then goes to the pipe off on the side no longer using the bracket that is on the pipe to go to the starter mount.
They should be readily available in the next 3 to 4 weeks. This should remove all the stress breaks for the Rhineharts :)
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Here is the latest I got from Rhinehart: (might have to read it from bottom up)
Thank you,
Sales Manager- Motorcycle's, ATV 's and Sport Bike's
BUB Enterprises, Inc.
(530) 477-7490 x 208
www.bubent.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:23 PM
To: 'BUB Enterprises
Subject: RE: Rear Pipe Bracket
I have a pipe and our new support bracket assembly to send you. Where do you want it sent?
To obtain warranty service, you must provide us with a copy of your dated receipt as proof of the purchase. Make sure your name, shipping address and daytime phone number are included.
To expedite your claim, please include a short note including
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Just piling on, 15000 miles and got a crack that I had welded. Held for about two weeks. We'll see what BUB has to say. Let you know.
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I had my first rear head pipe changed out yesterday. The service manager told me that they have changed around 30 in the last 6 months. Now they won't sell anymore of the Rinehart True Duals. Hopefully this one will last a little while and maybe the new mounting way that Unbalanced mentioned will fix the issue. I love the look and sound of these but will change if they can't make them more reliable.
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Email from Rhinehart today: " I am entering an order to ship you the replacement pipe & new support bracket to the address provided below. We do have an approximate ship date of 4-6 weeks. Thank you for your timely response."
Karen McRobbie
Warranty Dept.
I haven't given up, still like the performance and sound. Will advise when I get the replacement if the new bracket is acceptable.
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Hey Crawdaddy........I'm like you, I haven't given up on the Rienharts yet either. My replacement rear pipe is still holding( knock on wood) and I hope you find your replacement pipe to be worth the wait and hassle. Let us know what you receive and how you like it. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] spyder
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But what do they expect a guy to do for six weeks or two months without exhaust?
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I know, I know, it SUCKS. But, just another reason to have more than one scooter. [smiley=brood.gif] spyder
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Email from Rhinehart today: " I am entering an order to ship you the replacement pipe & new support bracket to the address provided below.
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I can always ride the 04 Heritage, but I went ahead and put on the VH true dual. When I bought them, I didn't expect BUB to warrant the pipes. I'll take some pics and post.
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Finally got a new rear pipe with the modified primary bracket. Had the dealer put it on, and it doesn't fit, it touches the foot peg, and with the rubber mounted motor a shak'n it just wouldn't work. Called BuB, they said, "yeah we know", they are working on a new bracket, but it's still in R&D ..We were told to modify what we had, and they would let us know when something else is available. Got that done by cutting off the top of the primary bracket, and then also installed the "old starter bracket". Hoping this works till they get off their ---!
This is the second bracket replacement, (20,000 miles) and the baffle on the same side has loosen three times. For a racing type business that Reinhart represents, you would think that they would put a little more into the obvious.
Never again Reinhart....Got to be a better way!
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I had to listen to 04hd103's rumbling through the mountains again last weekend and came back wanting a set (happens everytime I get around his bike). But then I read stuff like this and get snapped back to reality.
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Finally got a new rear pipe with the modified primary bracket. Had the dealer put it on, and it doesn't fit, it touches the foot peg, and with the rubber mounted motor a shak'n
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I had to listen to 04hd103's rumbling through the mountains again last weekend and came back wanting a set (happens everytime I get around his bike).
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Thanks for the tips BLM. I will give it a shot and see what happens. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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BLM,
I agree with you, but I also think the dealer should know the installation method and follow it.
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Brian, I'm glad you've had good success and all, but I think I will wait until there is a proven mounting system that translates into less voodoo and witchcraft being involved with a robust installation.
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Brian, I'm glad you've had good success and all, but I think I will wait until there is a proven mounting system that translates into less voodoo and witchcraft being involved with a robust installation.
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Nice, just got in the new brackett, jump back to this thread to hear it doesnt work ??daiuhgpqiuhr-8234487*&$@# what the hell !! I'm going to have to do the same as Brian then. I've been leaving this for people that are supposed to be experts, but looks like I'll have to do it myself. This is just a damn pipe for christsake! After all what is the biggest part of this system -the mufflers- if the muffler is supported better holding its own weight , that would easily hold the bottom end of the light ass pipe with the flange doing
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