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[Toofast_28]

Based on what I've read here it sounds like a pick up issue, the rotary oil pump design is proven and I can't imagine they could actually mess that up, but it is HD, they could mess up a wet dream.  Makes absolutely zero sense that changing displacement creates the issue though.

[harleytacticalnut]

Why are we not hearing about more of these bikes sumping  with aftermarket stage 4 kits?
Is that they already voided their warranty and they are eating crow or is this just attributed to the harley stage 3 & 4 kits?
Why aren't people like fuel moto, star racing, fullsac having sumping issues?

[sadunbar]

So....the difference in all these oil pumps is a change to the design of the pump housing???  The MOCO technical bulletin indicates the existing gerotors are used in the "new pump". 

[SDCVO]

I have run my stage 3 for 10000 miles with no issues

[Fullsac Performance]

I have run my stage 3 for 10000 miles with no issues

You, like myself must have tight under the piston oil squirters. Rumor from a good source has witnessed the piston oil squirters coming loose allowing an excessive amount of oil to bypass the jet and flow directly into the crankcase, overwhelming the scavenge pump. Anybody with the barrels off, might be well advised to remove and reinstall the squirters with locktight. But it's just a rumor, one that makes a whole lot of sense.

Steve@fullsac.com

[harleytacticalnut]

Steve,
Do you think that's what has happened to my bike?
I drained out 2 qts of oil, bike was running very hot.
I wonder how much damage could be done to the engine run like that on the crank side?

[sadunbar]

You, like myself must have tight under the piston oil squirters. Rumor from a good source has witnessed the piston oil squirters coming loose allowing an excessive amount of oil to bypass the jet and flow directly into the crankcase, overwhelming the scavenge pump. Anybody with the barrels off, might be well advised to remove and reinstall the squirters with locktight. But it's just a rumor, one that makes a whole lot of sense.

Steve@fullsac.com

And starving the lifters!

[Fullsac Performance]

Steve,
Do you think that's what has happened to my bike?
I drained out 2 qts of oil, bike was running very hot.
I wonder how much damage could be done to the engine run like that on the crank side?

Maybe? I have a few thoughts. And I only share these after my friend discovered loose sqirters in a motor that was sumping and I did a little thinking about it. Certainly not claiming I have the cure to anything. So, the percentage of 2017s with the sumping issue is very low. I do not believe the addition a few SE parts has anything to do with the oiling system working as designed or not. If I'm wrong that's fine, I do like to learn new things. If there was an oil pump design flaw the number of effected biked would be through the roof. The piston oil squirter is fed by a galley that runs to the lifters and up to the top end. Point is there is a lot of available oil under that little guy. If its loose allowing the oil to bypass the jet there is a substantial supply available. Here's a few fun facts about oil, viscosity and pressure. Cold motor, thick oil, high oil pressure. Hot engine, thin oil, low pressure. Sure, everybody knows this, but not everyone knows why the pressure change is so great. Thick oil is hard to push through small places. The oil pump has clearances that are sealed better by thick oil allowing it be more efficient. The thick oil creates more resistance going through the motor, both make for more oil pressure. Now lets assume we have a loose oil squirter that is bypassing oil into the bottom. When the oil is thick how much can get through compared to when the oil is hot? The scavenge pump is at its best when the oil is thick to keep up with the leak. Now lets go to 300 degree water thin oil. Our oil squirter leak just quadrupled and our scavenge pump has lost efficiency with the thinner viscosity. Kinda follows the pattern of everything going to hell when the bike got good and warmed up. Again,not claiming I know anything, just sharing a few thoughts about the situation.

Steve@fullsac.com

[Fullsac Performance]

And starving the lifters!

Big time!

[harleytacticalnut]

Brother it sounds very logical.
 I have had the same thought about the oil pump issue. It would be much more wide spread.
Can I ask if you know if Harley actually makes all the engines in house or are they sub-contracting these engines.
 If they are sub-contracting some if not all, this is why we may be dealing with an isolated situation by a certain assembler, or contractor.
IDK?

[Fullsac Performance]

Brother it sounds very logical.
 I have had the same thought about the oil pump issue. It would be much more wide spread.
Can I ask if you know if Harley actually makes all the engines in house or are they sub-contracting these engines.
 If they are sub-contracting some if not all, this is why we may be dealing with an isolated situation by a certain assembler, or contractor.
IDK?

I have no idea about sub contractors ect. I do know the squirter is fragile and minimaly attached. I have a 120 kit install coming up. I will get some personal experience with it at that time.

Steve@fullsac.com

[harleytacticalnut]

So if they tear down the upper and either find damage or not to the upper end, will they be able to see what kind of damage to the lower end if any could have happened with 2 qts of oil migrated down there with very high temps?
Will they be able to tear down the lower end to verify any damage already done?
If so what should I be looking for them to tell me?
If not I want to see if I get B/S

[Heatwave]

I decided to wait until the release of the '18 bikes before taking the next step on my '17 CVO Limited. After 2 failed engines due to Stage 4 sumping and the install of my 3rd new 114 engine I've made my next decision. Personally I don't care for the '18 paint or the transition to the "murdered" look of the new bikes. Dropping the CB and raising the prices $2k for the CVO Limited and $3k for the Anniversary makes staying with my '17 CVO Limited a VERY easy call. Plus HD put a 7yr ESP with Wheel & Tire coverage on the bike for my troubles.

So now its time to reupgrade the new engine back to a 117 Stage 4. The parts were ordered but interestingly the dealer says there's a 2 week lead time and the kit now includes a hi-perf oil pump.

If the parts arrive next week, my '17 CVO Limited goes back to stage 4 performance. We'll see if the latest M8 engine with latest stage 4 kit does the trick.

[harleytacticalnut]

So the motor company knowingly has a problem with the m8 and the stage 3 & 4 kits causing sumping .
They continue to sell the stage 3 & 4 upgrade product knowing that there could be an issue of engine damage when installed and they can't figure it out. They are now on a revision 3 oil pump as a cure even though I have heard that is not a permanent fix either.
Sounds like a class action in the making for those of us that bought the kool-aid for a $37,000 bike then invested in their factory upgrades during the 60 day initial purchase.
What really pisses me off is they are putting a factory m8- 117 in the 2018 CVO STREET GLIDE.
Really?
Do they really have the issue fixed and are producing factory 117 engines, but are leaving us consumers with the aftermath of being their guinea pigs and still sticking it to us consumers with B/S repairs on their 2017 m8 with stage 3 & 4 until the warranty expires?
That takes a lot of balls

[Fullsac Performance]

So if they tear down the upper and either find damage or not to the upper end, will they be able to see what kind of damage to the lower end if any could have happened with 2 qts of oil migrated down there with very high temps?
Will they be able to tear down the lower end to verify any damage already done?
If so what should I be looking for them to tell me?
If not I want to see if I get B/S

Any decent mechanic can find damage when it's tore down if there is any. Its hard for me to imagine a crank drowned in oil getting hurt. I personally seen a twin cam get hot enough to melt the cam sensor off the side of the case. That's when it stopped running. Zero damage to the crank, but the bore was done and very obvious to see.

Good luck with it.

Steve@fullsac.com