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CVO Technical => Twin Cam => Topic started by: grofcvo on October 07, 2015, 09:51:32 PM
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So question is what do you guys think about 110'' engine? Do you like it , does it have enough power... etc. Nothing is wrong with my bike it runs nice and smooth... but?
I have cvo rk '14 and in beginning I was happy, than I did upgrade domes pistons, GMR 577cam, TH exhaust heavy breather..it made nice 116hp and 132 tq. But lately I am feeling itch for more I am missing that moment when you twist throttle and your back tire smokes and goes left or right.... (don't tell me buy sport bike, I have seen bunch of baggars do what I described), does anyone wants more power or is just me. Tnx
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I'm cool with what I have once I got it breathing right and tuned. It's a touring bike for me, not something I'm looking to race or trash at a tire smoking contest. But if you want more power, go for it! I just paid too much for this thing, if I wanted a kickass bagger I'd buy an older Road King with a bad motor and just build it.
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I'm very happy with the air cooled 110 motor. :2vrolijk_21: It runs much cooler than my 103 did (same turner). Mine has plenty of power for a 900lb bike, running one up or two up. I might swap the cam out to the SE585, when I change out the 'C' lifters, but I'm really happy how it runs now with the stock 255's.
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I'm satisfied with the dual cooled motor on my bike. It has plenty of power for me and is smooth running and runs much cooler than my previous CVO. My 2012 SESG ran way hotter than this one. All I did was put Vance & Hines Monster Ovals on and the FP3 tuner. Good enough for me !
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I'm cool with what I have once I got it breathing right and tuned. It's a touring bike for me, not something I'm looking to race or trash at a tire smoking contest. But if you want more power, go for it! I just paid too much for this thing, if I wanted a kickass bagger I'd buy an older Road King with a bad motor and just build it.
I got you, it cost a lot and I am also happy with power that makes ... but some bug on my back is saying you need more haha, and I don't do racing or wheelies , to much to loose. But once in while would like to have that option.
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I totally get it! I did the same thing as you and I wanted more as well. I went and test drove a BMW after having the bike for about 6 months and I loved the power and suspension of the bike but hated the rest of it for what I want a bike for. When I told my brother in law he told me I couldn't have 1 bike that did everything (he has many bikes) and I told him I was going to try.. I put Ohlin suspension on the rear and a 120r motor in. Though I did end up blowing up the 120r (replaced it with a S&S 124) I do think my bike does "it all" and love every minute riding it and never regret spending the money. I get your "sport bike" comment and I regularly will "run with them" when I am out riding and always get a kick out of their reaction when we end up stopping together.
My vote, go for it!
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The problem is that the "always want more" syndrome leads to wasting tons of money and further reduces reliability. If you have tons of money and don't mind constantly spending it, do what makes you happy. But you're never going to take a half ton motorcycle and turn it into a tire shredding dragster without giving up most of what you bought the bike for originally. Bigger and bigger engines, turbo or supercharging, NOS injection, there are many options for someone who always wants more. Since you indicate you just want added oomph occasionally, why not look at NOS?
Jerry
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A larger T/B will allow the engine to produce more HP , porting the heads would gain you some as well along with better guides is always a upgrade there as well. Maybe swap to the 600 cam and 58E at the same time ?? I know many say go 124 .. but the facts are when you start over laying the graphs you see where the 113 builds out there vs say the 124 HC engines you get a much better picture.
I have a 124 in my own bike that runs extremely well however it does not make as much tq down low as the 113 builds do. So from roll on comparing the two builds the 113 make more down low on avg than the 124 does. However there is a point where the 124 pulls flat out and away.. Now compare the two bikes from a dig then yes the 124 being spun up to 6200 on the shifts will be the winner..
Then in gets into the custom building or modding of the crate 124 and now that only increase's the cost and most still never make more power down low.. Not talking about some one spewing random numbers lets see the dyno sheet, post it.. as the shape of the curve is everything..
I can over lay many 113 builds along with 124 lc and hc builds , then I can add in 124 hc modded builds and all in all for every day riding roll on power the smaller engine with smaller cam wins if you look at the 2200-3500 range for roll on power, spool it up over 4500 and the larger cam bigger CI makes more HP..
The 124 LC engines as a pure crate bolt in 125/135 the 124 HC engine 136-140 hp tq 133-138 modded 124 ??? but increase comp ratio, 2.02 intake some porting should go 140-145 tq 135-140 .
in the end where do you want the power, do not forget about fuel, heat .. in the end you can lean on it and build a very impressive dyno sheet but in the real world that engine is going to be less friendly than the lower compression build.
How much do you want to spend is the real question.. :)
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The problem is that the "always want more" syndrome leads to wasting tons of money and further reduces reliability. If you have tons of money and don't mind constantly spending it, do what makes you happy. But you're never going to take a half ton motorcycle and turn it into a tire shredding dragster without giving up most of what you bought the bike for originally.
That's it in a nutshell for me, I want to be reasonably sure that I can pull my bike out of the garage at any time and ride it across the Mojave Desert and over the Rockies without any issues to wreck my trip. Do I want more power that the average bear? Sure I do, that's why I bought a CVO... but I guess for me I'm just planning on drawing the line at exhaust and tuning. Can you build a massive HP machine and have it reliable? I don't know the answer to that question, but my experience is (and I don't think I'm alone) is that if you make the motor stronger and run it hard then the trans breaks... beef up the trans and the next thing down the line breaks... and on it goes. I just don't want to play that game with THIS bike. I'm not opposed to playing the game, just for me personally I'd find another canvas to paint on.
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one liner= find that happy medium :2vrolijk_21:
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So question is what do you guys think about 110'' engine? Do you like it , does it have enough power... etc. Nothing is wrong with my bike it runs nice and smooth... but?
I have cvo rk '14 and in beginning I was happy, than I did upgrade domes pistons, GMR 577cam, TH exhaust heavy breather..it made nice 116hp and 132 tq. But lately I am feeling itch for more I am missing that moment when you twist throttle and your back tire smokes and goes left or right.... (don't tell me buy sport bike, I have seen bunch of baggars do what I described), does anyone wants more power or is just me. Tnx
Hand-built specific-purpose 124" usually ends the want/need for more.
124"
Headwork
Wood 9F
66mm S&S T/Hog
Borezilla.........point it straight and let it go.
Seen 150 ft/lbs many times.
Rob Dyno Service, Gardner, Mass., just saw another one. :)
Scott
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So question is what do you guys think about 110'' engine? Do you like it , does it have enough power... etc. Nothing is wrong with my bike it runs nice and smooth... but?
I have cvo rk '14 and in beginning I was happy, than I did upgrade domes pistons, GMR 577cam, TH exhaust heavy breather..it made nice 116hp and 132 tq. But lately I am feeling itch for more I am missing that moment when you twist throttle and your back tire smokes and goes left or right.... (don't tell me buy sport bike, I have seen bunch of baggars do what I described), does anyone wants more power or is just me. Tnx
Have you done a throttle body ?
113 is more of an upgrade than most think....SHOULD do a crank while its apart
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A larger T/B will allow the engine to produce more HP , porting the heads would gain you some as well along with better guides is always a upgrade there as well. Maybe swap to the 600 cam and 58E at the same time ?? I know many say go 124 .. but the facts are when you start over laying the graphs you see where the 113 builds out there vs say the 124 HC engines you get a much better picture.
I have a 124 in my own bike that runs extremely well however it does not make as much tq down low as the 113 builds do. So from roll on comparing the two builds the 113 make more down low on avg than the 124 does. However there is a point where the 124 pulls flat out and away.. Now compare the two bikes from a dig then yes the 124 being spun up to 6200 on the shifts will be the winner..
Then in gets into the custom building or modding of the crate 124 and now that only increase's the cost and most still never make more power down low.. Not talking about some one spewing random numbers lets see the dyno sheet, post it.. as the shape of the curve is everything..
I can over lay many 113 builds along with 124 lc and hc builds , then I can add in 124 hc modded builds and all in all for every day riding roll on power the smaller engine with smaller cam wins if you look at the 2200-3500 range for roll on power, spool it up over 4500 and the larger cam bigger CI makes more HP..
The 124 LC engines as a pure crate bolt in 125/135 the 124 HC engine 136-140 hp tq 133-138 modded 124 ??? but increase comp ratio, 2.02 intake some porting should go 140-145 tq 135-140 .
in the end where do you want the power, do not forget about fuel, heat .. in the end you can lean on it and build a very impressive dyno sheet but in the real world that engine is going to be less friendly than the lower compression build.
How much do you want to spend is the real question.. :)
Steve you explained it real well, and just looking on numbers you posted , my 110''cvo makes 116hp/132tq and looking on this numbers from 124'' crate ,there is no big difference. It is very confusing and hard to decide what to do, If I do a upgrade to 113'' it will cost me still 3,5k-4.K ( I assume) and will this upgrade be the thing that makes me happy. Or would it be better go with 124'' and than like you said if you lay carts over is it worth spending extra couple grand..... hella confused now. can you put couple carts for me so I can see difference . tnx Steve
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Simple look at the 4000 mark .. where do you ride its that simple.. Now yes you can mod the 124 sure I can over lay that but first off some are talking about a pre 6 speed trans sorry but you cannot compare those .. Second if there is no sheet to show the curve, why bother as its all about the shape of the curve.
Now if Scott will post the bike making 150Tq I can copy it and over lay on these graphs ( within reason) or at least give a dot profile.
124 CRATE HC 66 FBW WITH 2-1 PIPE
124 CRATE HC 66 FBW 2-1-2 CRUSHER EX
113 GMR 600 CAM 58E FBW PORTED HEADS FULSAC EX
113 GMR 600 CAM STOCK HEADS 58E FBW VH PWR DUAL CRUSHER MUFFLERS
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/124%20CI%20dyno%20sheets/dynorunShare.png%20124vs%20113_zpssebi9iud.png) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/124%20CI%20dyno%20sheets/dynorunShare.png%20124vs%20113_zpssebi9iud.png.html)
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Good comparison
nuthin wrong with a 113....would be nice if there were more slightly used 120R cylinders
Seems I see quite a few 124's configured that might make 150 TQ......but combined with less horsepower than they came with
HUGE bummer
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I have reached my level now in spends and making it run the way I want it to. Probably spent too much, but that's it. Really happy with the sound, torque and power. Bassani two into one, matched high flow injectors, cams, lifters, cam plate, oil pump, TTS, dyno and progressive shocks on the rear. Job done ;D
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Have you done a throttle body ?
113 is more of an upgrade than most think....SHOULD do a crank while its apart
no the throttle body is the stock cvo.
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Simple look at the 4000 mark .. where do you ride its that simple.. Now yes you can mod the 124 sure I can over lay that but first off some are talking about a pre 6 speed trans sorry but you cannot compare those .. Second if there is no sheet to show the curve, why bother as its all about the shape of the curve.
Now if Scott will post the bike making 150Tq I can copy it and over lay on these graphs ( within reason) or at least give a dot profile.
124 CRATE HC 66 FBW WITH 2-1 PIPE
124 CRATE HC 66 FBW 2-1-2 CRUSHER EX
113 GMR 600 CAM 58E FBW PORTED HEADS FULSAC EX
113 GMR 600 CAM STOCK HEADS 58E FBW VH PWR DUAL CRUSHER MUFFLERS
(http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b537/Gmr-Performance/124%20CI%20dyno%20sheets/dynorunShare.png%20124vs%20113_zpssebi9iud.png) (http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/Gmr-Performance/media/124%20CI%20dyno%20sheets/dynorunShare.png%20124vs%20113_zpssebi9iud.png.html)
Steve that green line looks so good,
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GMR has posted some great info here :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
I agree with Steve, it's all about the curves :coolblue:
OP, if you want some big muscle, install a Trask Turbo...
or if you want the bike more responsive everywhere, a Baker DD7 (if you're the type that just wants to putt around in 6th gear all day at 2k rpm and just roll on to pass, then a DD7 is a waste of money for you...)
Me; The curves of the stock 255s didn't suit my riding style (all left, no right) the 259s were much better for me ( less left, more right). I "backed into" a 117/DD7 (when a failed lifter grenaded the motor) and am not looking for any more for the way I use the '09 SERG - "Sport Touring".
The '09 is a very happy medium for me, does everything well...
When I want a bike to go sideways when shifting into 2nd or 3rd I hop on the '01 Switchblade... :nervous:
Past a certain point (of power increases) the bike will become more "one dimensional"
Steve has the 113s dialed in, a great combination!
If any bottom end work is to be done on your existing motor, the S&S 124s are an extremely cost effective package...
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Now after seeing Steve's dyno chart combo I am wondering is it worth spend all this money looking at what I have already. There is minimal gain in tq/hp from what I have (110'') to a 113' or 124'' and is not worth the money, even I want it.
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Before my Road King I had a 1700cc Vulcan. The RK makes the Vulcan feel like it had to plow through mud to get down the road. I didn’t crave more power what-so-ever at first. After I “got used to” the bike, I became obsessed with dropping a bunch of money into it for more power. I had a bunch saved up and had everything picked out. Then one day it clicked….why am I doing this? Spend thousands of dollars to pull away from my buddies on a straight-away, when none of them (except the ones on sport bikes) can keep up with me anyways? I’m sure I will sound like an arrogant prick when I say this, but in all reality I could probably still outrun someone who may have a little higher HP/TQ than me just because I know how to ride. A lot of folks get obsessed over numbers but the bike is only as good as the rider.
The bike handles great, is dependable, and pulls like an angry bitch. I am more of a long trip/distance guy and feel like the bike offers a good balance between that and performance (and looks!). Even though it’s mostly stock, the bike has a few things that would still be considered upgrades for the 103. I love the 255 cams, got a decent exhaust and a solid tune. Good enough for me. I took that money and did some cosmetic things to make it different from other RK CVO’s, and put the rest towards retirement! I won’t lie, if I made a better living I’d probably get into the engine more. But I’m definitely satisfied with it.
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GMR has posted some great info here :2vrolijk_21: :2vrolijk_21:
I agree with Steve, it's all about the curves :coolblue:
OP, if you want some big muscle, install a Trask Turbo...
or if you want the bike more responsive everywhere, a Baker DD7 (if you're the type that just wants to putt around in 6th gear all day at 2k rpm and just roll on to pass, then a DD7 is a waste of money for you...)
Me; The curves of the stock 255s didn't suit my riding style (all left, no right) the 259s were much better for me ( less left, more right). I "backed into" a 117/DD7 (when a failed lifter grenaded the motor) and am not looking for any more for the way I use the '09 SERG - "Sport Touring".
The '09 is a very happy medium for me, does everything well...
When I want a bike to go sideways when shifting into 2nd or 3rd I hop on the '01 Switchblade... :nervous:
Past a certain point (of power increases) the bike will become more "one dimensional"
Steve has the 113s dialed in, a great combination!
If any bottom end work is to be done on your existing motor, the S&S 124s are an extremely cost effective package...
U right Steve got this on the 113'' and my bike is still stock except changed in cams and bump in compression . I still don't know much about work on engines , also looking on different dyno charts I got confused, sometimes you can see a 103'' makes more ph/tq than a 124'' and I don't know how much you can trust all this dyno papers.
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Overall I have been happy with the basic engine. I always want more but have to balance this all out. This is the bike I ride almost every day and we take on trips. She is heavy and still moves pretty quick. I have an old 80 750K with over 100 HP and weight of about 500 lbs which lets me play when I have the urge!
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Well, I am thinking about the stage 3 for my 110ci with the 259e cams.
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Help me understand ... If a person was doing all the work for a 113 build - wouldn't it make sense to go to a 117 or is that not cost effective?
I've got the bug myself. I really love my 2011 SESG and have zero desire to ever get rid of it. Just a little bored with the power it makes. It runs great and so far (20k) has been trouble free. Not sure I would be comfortable without beefing up the bottom end?
Really struggling with direction here ...
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Well, I am thinking about the stage 3 for my 110ci with the 259e cams.
I had se 259e on my previous bike 103'' and pulls hella hard after 3k rpm don't know how is gonna work in 110'' there is bunch good knowledgeable guys that can tell you if it is good choice or if there is something better.
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Help me understand ... If a person was doing all the work for a 113 build - wouldn't it make sense to go to a 117 or is that not cost effective?
I've got the bug myself. I really love my 2011 SESG and have zero desire to ever get rid of it. Just a little bored with the power it makes. It runs great and so far (20k) has been trouble free. Not sure I would be comfortable without beefing up the bottom end?
Really struggling with direction here ...
looks like one more guy that has same thinking like I do, my thing is after all this discussion why do 113'' or 117'' and pay around 4k or more wouldn't be better bang for the buck to add 2.5k and go with SnS and have 1 year warranty...
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looks like one more guy that has same thinking like I do, my thing is after all this discussion why do 113'' or 117'' and pay around 4k or more wouldn't be better bang for the buck to add 2.5k and go with SnS and have 1 year warranty...
What exhaust and air cleaner are you running?
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Now after seeing Steve's dyno chart combo I am wondering is it worth spend all this money looking at what I have already. There is minimal gain in tq/hp from what I have (110'') to a 113' or 124'' and is not worth the money, even I want it.
Bob has tuned all my bikes as well and he does a great job! I will tell you it really does depend on your riding style on if its worth it or not. My 110 was very similar to yours as Bob also tuned it but it is night and day from my 124 which Bob also tuned. We all get caught up on the graphs but it really comes down to how it feels when we ride it with our own styles. I have a buddy that spent a fortune on his modded 124 and rides it to get good MPG and not burn up tires. Completely stumps me but he is happy so thats all that matters but IMO he never should have done that motor. He just bought a new softail slim with the 110 motor, put 500 miles on it and he told me that it feels just as strong as his 124. All about riding style!
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What exhaust and air cleaner are you running?
I got X pipe from thunder header and high folw air intake that is stock on cvo bikes.
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Bob has tuned all my bikes as well and he does a great job! I will tell you it really does depend on your riding style on if its worth it or not. My 110 was very similar to yours as Bob also tuned it but it is night and day from my 124 which Bob also tuned. We all get caught up on the graphs but it really comes down to how it feels when we ride it with our own styles. I have a buddy that spent a fortune on his modded 124 and rides it to get good MPG and not burn up tires. Completely stumps me but he is happy so thats all that matters but IMO he never should have done that motor. He just bought a new softail slim with the 110 motor, put 500 miles on it and he told me that it feels just as strong as his 124. All about riding style!
Very well said, and I got a kick out of your friend's antics, but like you say riding style and what makes you happy! :drummer:
By the way, Bob tuned my last 4 bikes! Great guy, great tuner!
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Bob has tuned all my bikes as well and he does a great job! I will tell you it really does depend on your riding style on if its worth it or not. My 110 was very similar to yours as Bob also tuned it but it is night and day from my 124 which Bob also tuned. We all get caught up on the graphs but it really comes down to how it feels when we ride it with our own styles. I have a buddy that spent a fortune on his modded 124 and rides it to get good MPG and not burn up tires. Completely stumps me but he is happy so thats all that matters but IMO he never should have done that motor. He just bought a new softail slim with the 110 motor, put 500 miles on it and he told me that it feels just as strong as his 124. All about riding style!
You are right, and Bob is a wizard, I like to ride fast not fast to get a speeding ticket every day. But when I go I go there is no puling in first at 1500 rpm for a block to shift in second , I hit it and a go.
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my stock 110 engine on my FLTRSE3 will keep up with most bigger builds I've ridden with, for similar bikes (baggers). This is for real world riding, yeah I might loose some distance on straight aways but
I'll be pushing you soon. :drink: stay to the right as I'm fixing to pass, if not already. :drink:
I have a DIY tune with TTS, It was touted for the DIY'er but what a learning curve I had. :nixweiss: I'm just an ol country boy who likes to ride. ;D
Ride On
TN
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How much trouble did you have getting the TTS to tune in right? I have been thinking about that product but I have never done electronic tuning like that before.
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How much trouble did you have getting the TTS to tune in right? I have been thinking about that product but I have never done electronic tuning like that before.
Bob at RC cycles love TTS and never had any problems to tune it (they prefer TTS i think , many of my friends did dyno there and all used TTS)
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A tune with the TTS is not for the DIY’er IMO, besides all the tables you need to understand vtuning on the road is a major hazard if you want to hit all the cells. I did it with a screen mounted on handlebars, another distraction. I wish there was a good tuner close to me, I’d pay up in a heartbeat.
Some tuners will throw the bike on a dyno, do a few vtunes and call it a day. Not my idea of a professional tune. :drink:
TN
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All professional tuners will be this way. You really need to have a solid understanding of tuning to make sure it is correct. Pro tuner, TTS PV etc... Other wise you will not know if what is going on is correct or not. With that being said the TTS now doing your EG and timing tables is in my opinion a giant step forward .. Still the systems only understands the data feed back and if that feed back is in correct for what ever reason the tables will still be changed for better or worse.
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A tune with the TTS is not for the DIY’er IMO, besides all the tables you need to understand vtuning on the road is a major hazard if you want to hit all the cells. I did it with a screen mounted on handlebars, another distraction. I wish there was a good tuner close to me, I’d pay up in a heartbeat.
Some tuners will throw the bike on a dyno, do a few vtunes and call it a day. Not my idea of a professional tune. :drink:
TN
Based on the grips I saw in Maggie Valley this statement is suspect !!! :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
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Based on the grips I saw in Maggie Valley this statement is suspect !!! :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
Ouch! But to be fair, he's saving up for the tune! :nixweiss: