Post by: csgohn on July 29, 2017, 02:09:50 PM
Post by: Twolanerider on July 29, 2017, 02:14:57 PM
Post by: J.D. on July 29, 2017, 02:41:39 PM
Post by: TN on July 29, 2017, 03:18:38 PM
You have to be proactive with the 110" and HD's in general now so don't jump out there, buy a new one and expect anything different. I feel yer pain and have gone thru this with the 07 110".......I'll stop there on that one. :coolblue:
Lots of folks have shared their experiences good and bad here so weed thru all the dribble and get yer bike where you are proud of it again.
I sincerely wish you luck and hope you have the fortitude to get yer TR back up and running the way you like it.
One more note, I sold a 08 TR 96" punched out to a 103" with only one topend job with 187k miles on it a year er so ago, so they can be reliable beyond belief. I should have kept that one. :drink: :drink:
TN
Post by: Cvostu on July 29, 2017, 03:49:55 PM
Post by: fastfreddy on July 29, 2017, 07:18:32 PM
Post by: mark on July 29, 2017, 08:32:31 PM
Lifters, valve guides, seals, cam bearing, excessive oil consumption, compensator...I'm sure others can add to the list.
Post by: Toofast_28 on July 29, 2017, 08:42:32 PM
Post by: Ironhorse on July 29, 2017, 10:08:22 PM
But I could be wrong.
Post by: longlast on July 29, 2017, 11:48:14 PM
I've read a lot of all the issues that's going on with them about clutches, compensaters, lifters, electrical and so on all at different mileage.
I have 18+k on mine and have had two mager issues but not from poor design from what I can see.
The first issue was the inner primary case bearing and clutch hub spline failure due to the primary chain being too tight. This l found can happen from heavy acceleration and deceleration ( riding hard) I don't ride hard like that so I'm guessing it was the previous owner, the bike had 6k on it when I picked it up.
The second issue is now.
The lifters started getting noisy ( this has happened about 3 weeks after doing the bearing and clutch hub) so I ordered up the lifters and started stripping it down. Then found that all of the top end rocker box bolts and rocker arm assembly had all came loose on the rear cylinder. The front is all good.
Again I put it down to human fault because the rear cylinder had a head gasket recall before I got the bike and I can only assume the dealer mechanic did a piss poor job of it.
Other than that I'm finding it to be a good running motor and I'm liking the bike.
But hay, like I said I'm a greenhorn :nixweiss:
Oh, and did have a regulator rectifier issue but I don't consider that mager
Post by: RonandJanet on July 30, 2017, 07:34:45 AM
Post by: HD Street Performance on July 30, 2017, 11:04:56 AM
Add head fans. The lifters, the cam and tune need to be changed. Optional rocker lockers, adjustable pushrods (a convenience) and change valve springs. After that a lifter inspection at 30K intervals plus regular oil changes should keep the motor happy assuming no events cause a crank shift and assuming the run out is acceptable to begin with.
Post by: coloradotom on July 30, 2017, 11:49:51 AM
Post by: guppytrash on July 30, 2017, 12:01:40 PM
Post by: BostonboyDH on July 30, 2017, 12:31:01 PM
yes it is junk
Well just call me Fred Sanford!!!!
Post by: CVODON on July 30, 2017, 05:56:28 PM
Post by: bbrown on July 30, 2017, 10:21:35 PM
I had the 110 in a 12 cvosg. I had that bike for only 42k miles. Never had one issue with it. Had John Sachs do a build on it with 58mm intake injectors heads cams and more. Not one complaint with it. Now I have one in the 16rg. . No work done on this one at all. . I'm going to leave this alone this time. . Again. Not one problem. I typically do not ride like I stole it. Maybe that's why my things last. . Just saying. . Stuart.yup. My experience is the same
Post by: quicked on July 31, 2017, 07:56:29 AM
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on July 31, 2017, 08:09:54 AM
All my bikes get all recommended service and are well cared for.
My 09 SERG, failed compensator, failed lifters at 46K miles, traded at 46K.
My 12 SERG, Failed regulator, failed compensator, failed clutch master cylinder. Traded at 47K.
My 15 SERGU, Failed water pump, and then failed lifers at 44K, Harley replaced engine, traded with new engine.
My 13 SERK, built the engine with 1500 miles on the bike, head work, behive valve springs, woods lifters, cam and so on. HD came out with the 117 cylinders when the bike had 15K on it. Built it again with the 117 cylinders, freshened the heads and more aggressive cam. No issues with this engine.
I do not think the 110 is junk. I do believe the lifers will fail in the 110, especially with the stock valve springs. I have seen them fail as early as 21K on a friends bike and seen them last over 46K. 2.5 years is about what it takes to get 45K on my traveling bike.
So far my 17 with the 114 has 18K on it with no issues.
Post by: SIKBIRD on July 31, 2017, 08:19:47 AM
They have their faults. I have had issues with every 110 I have owned except one.
All my bikes get all recommended service and are well cared for.
My 09 SERG, failed compensator, failed lifters at 46K miles, traded at 46K.
My 12 SERG, Failed regulator, failed compensator, failed clutch master cylinder. Traded at 47K.
My 15 SERGU, Failed water pump, and then failed lifers at 44K, Harley replaced engine, traded with new engine.
My 13 SERK, built the engine with 1500 miles on the bike, head work, behive valve springs, woods lifters, cam and so on. HD came out with the 117 cylinders when the bike had 15K on it. Built it again with the 117 cylinders, freshened the heads and more aggressive cam. No issues with this engine.
I do not think the 110 is junk. I do believe the lifers will fail in the 110, especially with the stock valve springs. I have seen them fail as early as 21K on a friends bike and seen them last over 46K. 2.5 years is about what it takes to get 45K on my traveling bike.
So far my 17 with the 114 has 18K on it with no issues.
Damn Dave, you are logging some miles! Of course if I lived where you live I'd have a lot more miles too.
Post by: ultrafxr on July 31, 2017, 08:20:49 AM
I too am meticulous about maintenance but don't think changing motor oil every day would help prevent the failures. It's a crap shoot as some failed as soon as 22k while others lasted to almost 50k.
I simply do not trust the motor to get me home as I've been stranded 000s of miles from home on several occasions. Not fun. In fact a major PIA. No more 110s for me.
Post by: NH Bulldog on July 31, 2017, 09:32:36 AM
When you think about it, what is the real difference between any of the TC motors that would make a 110 more susceptible to failure over a 96 or 103?
Post by: ultrafxr on July 31, 2017, 10:15:19 AM
I had over 30k on my 2012 110 when I traded it in this spring. I maintained good fluids (not Syn3), never really pushed it too hard, but we rode 2-up 99.9% of the time and even towed a trailer for about 20k of those miles. Never had any issues, it made the same noises from day 1 until the day it was traded in. I was never concerned of it imploding, but from what people are saying here, it could have happened at any time........or not.Much stronger valve springs which hammer the valve train. Some say way too much spring pressure and recommend changing them.
When you think about it, what is the real difference between any of the TC motors that would make a 110 more susceptible to failure over a 96 or 103?
Post by: Ironhorse on July 31, 2017, 10:25:13 AM
Much stronger valve springs which hammer the valve train. Some say way too much spring pressure and recommend changing them.
That and the crank. I think if HD had a decent crank that came pinned and welded, it would reduce the number of crank run out issues. You never hear of a Dark Horse crank scissoring.
Post by: xupd42bmg on July 31, 2017, 02:00:04 PM
Post by: KGB on July 31, 2017, 02:11:57 PM
I've got the 16RG. I ride the chit out of it and I know my day is coming. I just hope it's within warranty. Other wise I'm building the motor anyway.X2
Post by: HD Street Performance on July 31, 2017, 04:00:29 PM
Much stronger valve springs which hammer the valve train. Some say way too much spring pressure and recommend changing them.Hearing noise, that is lash. That comes from lifters not able to keep the roller seated on the cam. Root cause is not the springs but they are in the mix. The beehives guys are using have higher seat pressure than the oem spring.
Post by: Ironhorse on July 31, 2017, 04:01:59 PM
Hearing noise, that is lash. That comes from lifters not able to keep the roller seated on the cam. Root cause is not the springs but they are in the mix. The beehives guys are using have higher seat pressure than the oem spring.
So it's a combination of things, springs, lifter, and cams. Is the crank also in that mix?
Post by: grc on July 31, 2017, 04:31:38 PM
A big part of the issues can be traced all the way back to the redesign and retooling done for the 2007 (2006 Dyna) model year. That's when all the crankshaft (flywheel assy) issues became ridiculous and Harley changed it's runout specs from .003" max at the pinion shaft to .012" at the pinion shaft, to avoid having to scrap large quantities of their production. There was also a major change to the primary drive which increased shock loading on the suspect cranks, and a general cheapening of various component parts by the MoCo. There were plenty of failures on the TC96 models, so it wasn't just a CVO110 issue. The 110 though came with it's own set of additional problems from day one, such as the head gasket failures and oil leaks, defective ACR's, and compensators that couldn't cope. They also had many issues with tapered cylinders right out of the box and piston slap. Last but definitely not least the valve train was seriously flawed in a multitude of areas. The valve guides had a bad habit of dropping or seizing on the valve stem, especially on the hotter rear cylinder. The inner cam bearings failed at relatively low miles, as well as the lifter rollers. Only after six years of failures did the MoCo upgrade the inner cam bearings and come out with a beefed up roller for the lifters, and even that lifter has had many failures reported.
I'm sure I missed a few more, but that should give those who are new to the site or to the CVO110 a little history. Yes, not all 110's have suffered massive failures. However, we have many members who have had several CVO110's over the past ten years and have had more than one failure. Some have already posted in this thread. I'd say that those who have posted about never having a single issue with their 110's are either really really lucky, or don't ride much. The luck of the draw is something that bites some people with pretty much any product, but high quality and well engineered products have many fewer "luck of the draw" failures than Harley, where engineering takes a back seat to styling and cost cutting (profit enhancement). To answer the OP question, IMHO the 110 is not totally junk, but compared to a well designed and manufactured engine from anyone else I think it is highly suspect. I made a personal decision many years ago that I wouldn't buy a bike with a 2007 and later TC engine in it, and especially a CVO110. I don't tolerate miserable reliability in my other vehicle choices, and I'm not interested in making exceptions for H-D.
Jerry
Post by: HD Street Performance on July 31, 2017, 04:42:38 PM
My opinion is the 96" motor was flawed from the inception and the issues are not limited to the engine. Add a stack of mismatched valve train parts that don't play well and heat things up more with lean mixtures and higher cylinder pressures and you have an engine package that is much more prone to fail, and they do.
The valve train can be fixed but it takes disassembly. Not a simple lifter change but that's a start.
Post by: ultrafxr on July 31, 2017, 05:39:42 PM
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: J.D. on July 31, 2017, 06:38:07 PM
Post by: Rooster on August 01, 2017, 12:20:12 AM
I'm pretty much a greenhorn but I've learned a lot about the 110s over the past few years I've had my 07 Ultra.I don't ride hard and I had my primary bearing failure fixed by replacing with the Baker Primary bearing still in there and no issue since. Bought my 07 new and still riding it.
I've read a lot of all the issues that's going on with them about clutches, compensaters, lifters, electrical and so on all at different mileage.
I have 18+k on mine and have had two mager issues but not from poor design from what I can see.
The first issue was the inner primary case bearing and clutch hub spline failure due to the primary chain being too tight. This l found can happen from heavy acceleration and deceleration ( riding hard) I don't ride hard like that so I'm guessing it was the previous owner, the bike had 6k on it when I picked it up.
The second issue is now.
The lifters started getting noisy ( this has happened about 3 weeks after doing the bearing and clutch hub) so I ordered up the lifters and started stripping it down. Then found that all of the top end rocker box bolts and rocker arm assembly had all came loose on the rear cylinder. The front is all good.
Again I put it down to human fault because the rear cylinder had a head gasket recall before I got the bike and I can only assume the dealer mechanic did a piss poor job of it.
Other than that I'm finding it to be a good running motor and I'm liking the bike.
But hay, like I said I'm a greenhorn :nixweiss:
Oh, and did have a regulator rectifier issue but I don't consider that mager
Post by: guppytrash on August 01, 2017, 01:17:32 AM
If the 110 was in a GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, BMW, Indian, etc.
The failure rate would be unacceptable.
It's a Harley so it's acceptable.
Post by: TN on August 01, 2017, 07:13:47 AM
Call it whatever you want...junk...boat anchor...thigh barbecue...
If the 110 was in a GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, BMW, Indian, etc.
The failure rate would be unacceptable.
It's a Harley so it's acceptable.
Ain't that the truth :drink: they have been given a pass of sorts.
Not sure what I'd do with my H.O.G. tattoo on the side of my neck without a Harley to justify it.
I'm fixing to go ride my junk...... :bananarock:
TN
Post by: FLSTFI Dave on August 01, 2017, 08:22:26 AM
Much higher valve spring pressures
When you think about it, what is the real difference between any of the TC motors that would make a 110 more susceptible to failure over a 96 or 103?
Much stronger valve springs which hammer the valve train. Some say way too much spring pressure and recommend changing them.
Yep, Beehive springs help, spring is less likely to bind than the Harley set up
Hearing noise, that is lash. That comes from lifters not able to keep the roller seated on the cam. Root cause is not the springs but they are in the mix. The beehives guys are using have higher seat pressure than the oem spring.
I fully agree.
Post by: grc on August 01, 2017, 08:45:07 AM
Call it whatever you want...junk...boat anchor...thigh barbecue...
If the 110 was in a GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, BMW, Indian, etc.
The failure rate would be unacceptable.
It's a Harley so it's acceptable.
EXACTLY! The vast majority of Harley riders would never accept the same poor quality and reliability from any of their other purchases, but for whatever reason they keep giving Harley a free pass. Let's see, Harley overcharges for everything, they blow off customers who complain about abnormal/unacceptable conditions and failures, they cover up and take at least six to eight years to attempt to fix known problems in production, and they don't enforce any standards with their dealers with regard to customer service. What's not to love about any of that? The Boomer generation is probably the last they will see that will give them such blind loyalty, and it's going to take a lot of work and a huge change in corporate mindset if they are to continue to succeed in the US market.
JMHO - Jerry
Post by: HD Street Performance on August 01, 2017, 08:47:57 AM
So was the 96 /103 so great before they added inches and a new valve train? Is the 6 speed cruise drive a durable reliable drive train?
Nope, the 110 just adds to an already shaky stack.
Post by: Ironhorse on August 01, 2017, 05:08:41 PM
Post by: KGB on August 01, 2017, 05:41:53 PM
I was wondering,...does the same thing happen to Non-CVO bikes that install the "110 Kit"? In other words, if a regular 2016 103' engine was upgraded, using the HD 110 kit, would it start self destructing too? Would the lifters chew up the cams, the crank start pushing the limits of run out and so on?
When you buy the 110 kit for a 103 you get new lifters, cams, valve springs, push rods, along with the cylinders and pistons, so your probably good for another 20K :nixweiss:
Post by: Ironhorse on August 01, 2017, 06:41:48 PM
When you buy the 110 kit for a 103 you get new lifters, cams, valve springs, push rods, along with the cylinders and pistons, so your probably good for another 20K :nixweiss:
So then pass on the HD stuff and use S&S lifters and cams, go with Beehive springs in the heads, and you're good till,....60k?
Post by: HD Street Performance on August 01, 2017, 09:15:28 PM
I was wondering,...does the same thing happen to Non-CVO bikes that install the "110 Kit"? In other words, if a regular 2016 103' engine was upgraded, using the HD 110 kit, would it start self destructing too? Would the lifters chew up the cams, the crank start pushing the limits of run out and so on?I assume you mean there 110 bolt-on for a 103" with CNC heads
New set of issues
The HD kit with CNC heads have way too much spring pressure. Get rid of those and it would be as good as a 103 or thereabouts. The lifters are maintenance items regardless.
Post by: moto4sho on August 02, 2017, 12:32:26 AM
Post by: grc on August 02, 2017, 08:38:28 AM
I was wondering,...does the same thing happen to Non-CVO bikes that install the "110 Kit"? In other words, if a regular 2016 103' engine was upgraded, using the HD 110 kit, would it start self destructing too? Would the lifters chew up the cams, the crank start pushing the limits of run out and so on?
I'm not sure what's available now, but not long after the CVO110 was introduced in production Harley offered a kit to create the exact same engine, including the heads, when installed on a TC96 or TC103. Those kits would have had the exact same weaknesses as the factory assembled CVO engine, since they used the exact same parts.
Jerry
Post by: Ironhorse on August 02, 2017, 08:59:49 AM
Post by: HD Street Performance on August 02, 2017, 01:02:46 PM
Post by: Ironhorse on August 02, 2017, 01:18:59 PM
My goodness would anybody pay to have the motor pulled, cases bored and the convert from a 103 to a cvo 110 configuration? You buy trouble.
My thoughts exactly. My cousin has a 2015 Ultra Low with the 103. He's talking about putting in the HD 110 kit. I'm trying to talk him out of it, instead going with mild head work, and some nice S&S Cams and lifters. I told him his numbers would be equal to, or greater than a stock 110, and a whole Hell of a lot more dependable.
Post by: HD Street Performance on August 02, 2017, 02:47:44 PM
https://mstore.harley-davidson.com/store/screamin-eagle-110ci-stage-v-tire-shredder-kit
Post by: Dan_Lockwood on August 02, 2017, 04:36:56 PM
Here is one way to go. Not a recommendation because it is not that great for 2700 dollars but not terrible either.
https://mstore.harley-davidson.com/store/screamin-eagle-110ci-stage-v-tire-shredder-kit
And it comes with beehive valve spring... :2vrolijk_21:
Post by: HD Street Performance on August 02, 2017, 05:19:23 PM
Post by: johnsachs on August 02, 2017, 06:17:03 PM
The first thing I would change and have done several, 205# seat pressure.A set I checked last month, MoCo 103" stage 4 @ 1.840" installed height = 190 # on the seat. SE beehives. :'(
John
Post by: HD Street Performance on August 02, 2017, 09:39:37 PM
Post by: johnsachs on August 03, 2017, 06:39:34 PM
But yes, too much spring pressure will cause many problems.
John
Post by: longlast on August 03, 2017, 06:43:11 PM
Post by: trwtow on August 03, 2017, 08:07:32 PM
No problem with the two 110's I've had. I'd buy another tomorrow if it was something I wanted.
same here had 10 and 12 cvo streetglide only mods were full exhaust and tune no problems hope the 17 Milwaukee 114 has the same luck got mine in april so far so good
Post by: kcbike on August 03, 2017, 09:58:05 PM
Post by: Mano on August 10, 2017, 02:37:25 PM
Post by: Rooster on August 10, 2017, 02:57:24 PM
I was wondering,...does the same thing happen to Non-CVO bikes that install the "110 Kit"? In other words, if a regular 2016 103' engine was upgraded, using the HD 110 kit, would it start self destructing too? Would the lifters chew up the cams, the crank start pushing the limits of run out and so on?I don't know about all but a good friend did that and he now rides an Indian after all the things you mentioned. :(
Post by: Ironhorse on August 10, 2017, 03:51:06 PM
I don't know about all but a good friend did that and he now rides an Indian after all the things you mentioned. :(
That answered my question Terry. My cousin Alan was considering a 110kit on his 103. I think I've convinced him to just go with cams, mild head work and a good tune. I told him his engine would live a lot longer and his wallet would be a lot happier.
Post by: Rooster on August 10, 2017, 04:40:28 PM
Post by: pudgeyxj on August 10, 2017, 05:08:12 PM
Cheers :drink:
P
Post by: r0de_runr on August 10, 2017, 07:45:11 PM
Every rear tire change I also do my lifters. Overkill, maybe. Easy to do, cheap insurance.
Post by: HD Street Performance on August 11, 2017, 09:49:22 AM
Post by: Twolanerider on August 11, 2017, 10:58:01 AM
Just a FYI and for the benefit of others reading there is a slow bleed version of the same lifter with axle oiling. These are stock replacements.
Post Office delivering a set here from Amazon sometime today.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DFADTS6/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_11?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1AOMQWLSRNOND
Post by: CHH_Badkarma on August 11, 2017, 03:34:40 PM
Just a FYI and for the benefit of others reading there is a slow bleed version of the same lifter with axle oiling. These are stock replacements.
Does that mean no better than stock lifters?
Post by: Twolanerider on August 11, 2017, 03:47:27 PM
Does that mean no better than stock lifters?
No, that just means they fit in the stock hole without any alterations elsewhere. It is a better part though.
Post by: CHH_Badkarma on August 11, 2017, 04:01:49 PM
Post by: HD Street Performance on August 11, 2017, 08:13:57 PM
Does that mean no better than stock lifters?
I think the QA is better and so is the materials but why not go for the others? The cost is minimally higher.
Post by: CHH_Badkarma on August 11, 2017, 08:19:15 PM
I think the QA is better and so is the materials but why not go for the others? The cost is minimally higher.
Oh I dont mind cost. Just wondering if there was anything that was better than the ol standby S&S.
Post by: MLCRISIS on August 11, 2017, 08:49:31 PM
Post by: CHH_Badkarma on August 11, 2017, 08:57:06 PM
Post by: J.D. on August 11, 2017, 09:11:18 PM
Post by: Limeytrichevy on August 20, 2017, 08:01:16 PM
Post by: Unbalanced on August 24, 2017, 11:45:31 AM
Is a big bore 45 degree air cooled v twin on a single crank pin junk? Yep, but don't they sound cool?
Why I went to a 5 piece from P3R - Rebuildable and balanced to 60%.
By sounding cool do you mean the exploding lifters :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2: :huepfenlol2:
Post by: TheGullGuy on August 25, 2017, 09:33:54 AM
Post by: J.D. on August 25, 2017, 11:11:01 AM
Post by: Unbalanced on August 25, 2017, 01:46:34 PM
Post by: bakon on August 26, 2017, 10:29:44 AM
Post by: r0de_runr on August 26, 2017, 12:13:09 PM
Confused . . . I have 30K at the moment, dealer changed my fluids every 2,500 miles, I have a few years left on the extended warranty. . . no problems other than a pinhole in the head that needed replacing . . . do I leave things alone and hope? . . . bike runs great . . . am I looking at an unavoidable problem in my future if I don't replace something? Just came off a 6,500 mile run . . . don't want to be found on road dead . . . not a gearhead, know absolutely nothing about what keeps my CVO running other than my key and the fuel I put in it . . . this thread has scared the S...t out of me . . .
Sounds like your dealer knows you well. Ask him about cutting yu a deal on just replacing your lifters with the Harley SE lifters. He might give you a discount due to all the oil changes. And if the dealer does it with HD parts, no ESP problems.
I don't know for sure, but I'll bet a good mechanic can replace the lifters in two or three hours, from the top, so you'l need valve cover gasket set, lifters and some labor. Under 500 for sure I'd think, and if you have been paying close to $300 for those oil changes, switch to 5000 miles and you will quickly recover your costs on the lifters.
Don't be scared, look at it as a maintenance item like a timing belt on a Toyota. Fix it now or it will break at some point. Sounds lke you have a good CVO and want to keep it, just have the lifters done at the HD Dealer.
Post by: guppytrash on August 26, 2017, 12:39:26 PM
Just a thought!
Of course it will fail at the most inconvenient possible time!
Then again...New engine.
You paid for the warranty! Sounds like they would have absolutely no reason to deny with dealer services every 2500 miles.
Most importantly you have done all the right things to maintain your HD and with the extended warranty you purchased.
You certainly should not be sweating it!
Post by: J.D. on August 26, 2017, 01:44:50 PM